2 Japanese Trolls Fails Hard in Korea - Page 12
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MK
United States496 Posts
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kaizenmx
United States110 Posts
That is the one that greatly pisses off both korea and china about japan. | ||
poasiodss
United States63 Posts
On July 07 2009 16:29 sk` wrote: poasiodss: I'm a lovely product of the American education system and I disagree with your notion that our tainted history is thoroughly examined. For the most part, it is taught in a manner that states, "Yeah, that stuff was pretty bad, but look at all these heroic things that happened too! Oh and Abe, he totally like put and end to all the dirty stuff!". In actuality, it was not so clean and Lincoln's motivations were never so pure. More importantly, how long did it take for the issue to have real dialog or solutions? Where's those 40 achers and the muel every single slave was promised? Sorry, but the US is by no means clean in this matter and has done little in terms of apology; so for your or I to judge Germany or Japan is... damn pot; how black is that kettle again? I feel I have no ground to judge either. Also, before you try to discredit my point by questioning the education I received, I was in AP classes from the 5 grade until exiting high school. As a philosophy major later, I've just observed that every country teaches history in a way that paints its deeds in a positive light; not matter how filthy they are. Well, if you were in AP classes during high school, I'd have to question your honesty. Starting from American History class in middle school through AP European History and AP U.S. History, my teachers always dealt at least one entire chapter on slavery. I'm just going to state my point from the previous post since you completely overlooked it. In US, we learn about slavery. In Germany, they learn about Nazis. In Japan, they don't learn about the war crimes. On July 07 2009 16:29 sk` wrote: I never said the trend in Japan was to blame the old regime. I said the trend is that the people on the street feel and act very differently than the goverment. As for "...never happen again..." type thoughts... crappy shit happens all the time, different places than the place before it. As a species we've learned nothing from our past atrocities. Darfur or other recent atrocities should prove as much. More important would be to look to why it happened and why it happens and thus address the nature of those "whys" and you can cut it off before it happens - peacefully. Either way, you see this pattern continue today under differing terms. The motivation and tragedies that follow remain. Better to analyze this and understand it (thus reach a solution) than cry about it. That's a very hypocritical way of thinking. You're preaching that Korea should analyze and understand the tragedies to learn from it. How about Japan? Shouldn't it also analyze and understand this so it wouldn't happen again? As I kept saying, it's quickly being forgotten over there. On July 07 2009 16:29 sk` wrote: Also, I never said they should just pretend it never happened, but rather standing in one spot crying about it isn't productive. China and Japan have largely moved on; much like the US and Africa have done... Korea seems to cling to it though and if you compare relative growth rates and GDP, it is clear that energy is wasted. Not to say South Korea hasn't been successful, just that it isn't as rapid or strong as its neighbors. If we consider the two Koreas as one it is especially unsuccessful. You're blaming Korea's relatively low growth rate and GDP on its inability to let go of the past? Korea hasn't been able relatively high standards of living it has today a few decades ago. After being ravaged by Japan, Korea went through U.S/Russia occupation and had a civil war. After having the country become fucked up beyond recognition and losing half of the nation, Korea went through some era of political instability due to communism scare and dictatorship. Soon, however, Korea did undergo miraculous growth in economy, eventually reaching where it is today. That's alot of history to simply summarize as being too busy crying to expand the economy. On July 07 2009 16:29 sk` wrote: I am well aware of that history (in terms of post-war Japan). Of course they protested; Japan was never occupied before. Hell, they even managed to repel the Mongol Empire of old (through lucky typhoon timing). However, unlike Korea which is still cranky about it, Japan got to the task of rebuilding largely before it got to the task of protest. No matter which revision of history you check the bulk of the effort was placed in how Japan structured its economy and labor force over forgein investment. Nobody will doubt the US helped, especially with the procurement costs in the Korean War, but this is a standard model and the US continues to pay both Korea and Japan for land it uses for military purposes. The point of payment is moot since it is so wide-spread and Korea too has benefited from post-war aide... so I'm really not sure why you introduced this at all. This was a respond to you summarizing Japan's economy growth as a 'miracle they achieved through sheer work and no bitching at US unlike Korea.' | ||
MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
What are they supposed to "try" to? Remembering WW2 in a manner in which you wish? One can only control the level of education they receive so far; past that they'd need a passion to explore the topic and educate themselves in the details. Few humans posses this. To expect an entire culture to, without any motivation, is just absurd. Nobody is trying to reduce the history of North America to "ideological ammo" and how you've lept there is beyond me. Seems mostly a ploy to distract from the topic. The topic is simple, you nor I are clean enough to pass judgment on the Japanese. From the usage of slaves to promises denied them after their freedom was passed to the abuse and exploitation of the native population... we are by no means in a position to judge. North America has seen no shortage of atrocities committed so that future generations of whites could enjoy the way of life they do now (for the record I am not black). If you are not in a position to judge, you are not even in a position to think. Everyone judges to one extent or another, and the responsibilities attached, unless one lives in complete dissapation, are unavoidable. Judgement, whatever the quality of one's faculties, can be redeemed by simple honesty. Unfortunately, this requires a lot of unlearning today, when public indoctrination in both oriental and "free" nations fill our heads with simplistic moralism and superficial cliches. Nobody is trying to reduce the history of North America to "ideological ammo" and how you've lept there is beyond me Here's your ideological ammo: From the usage of slaves to promises denied them after their freedom was passed to the abuse and exploitation of the native population... we are by no means in a position to judge. North America has seen no shortage of atrocities committed so that future generations of whites could enjoy the way of life they do now Here I do not blame you for being prejudiced; no thinking man can help that. I'm blaming you for immodesty, for being someone who hopes to enjoy the fruits of conclusion without harvesting his premises. | ||
ParasitJonte
Sweden1768 Posts
On July 07 2009 19:39 Eury wrote: Let's make something clear here: Japan did commit genocides and other atrocities during WW2, so don't try to whitewash that. They were as bad as Nazi Germany, just that their war crimes didn't get as much exposure here in the west. Germany has since then made up with their past and moved on, sadly you can't say the same when it comes to Japan. They still have war criminals enshrined in Yasukuni Shrine and every now then they try to revise their history books to make them look better - even victims - during WW2. This angers a lot of countries in Asia that suffered under Japanese oppression during the war, and that anger get used by right-wing groups and/or nationalistic currents in China and Korea. If Japan just stopped trying to whitewash their own history, removed the war criminals from Yasakuni, and offered an honest apology for what they did, then Japan could move on and leave their trouble past behind them. Radical groups in China and Korea wouldn't have as much fuel for their hatred of Japan then either, and the relations between the countries would improve. The meaning of "genocide" has already been discussed. The main point I would like to make is that you can't refer to the japanese as "they". Who's trying to whitewash what? It's not as if there is no debate about these issues in Japan; be it Yasukuni Shrine or history text books. The history text book produced in 2005 that was the spark of the latest controversy (I believe) is practically not used anywhere at all. And there were protests in Japan at that time too. You can't fit this equation: Japan = some conservative right wing nationalists. In the same way, I can't fit: Sweden = Sverigedemokraterna. You have a point in that the war crimes of Japan are seldom (if ever) mentioned in Swedish schools, at least not the ones I have attended. I don't know how it is in other western countries but I suspect it's the same? If so, then that's really sad. But Japan is a healthy democratic nation. You can't portray them as some sneaky bastards secretly in love with their imperial past or whatever. It's not fair and it actually undermines critizism from those who are fair. | ||
Velr
Switzerland10499 Posts
but the holocaust... wew... you get so much of it here that it just begins to annoy you to the extreme... | ||
sk`
Japan442 Posts
Nobody is trying to deny those are horrid atrocities. The issue lies with the definition of "genocide" is all. poasiodss: Well, if you were in AP classes during high school, I'd have to question your honesty. Starting from American History class in middle school through AP European History and AP U.S. History, my teachers always dealt at least one entire chapter on slavery. My point is exactly that... ONE CHAPTER. One chapter covers 200 years of history. One. Compare that will how thoroughly the American Civil War or Revolutionary War are covered...Pardon me while I get a laugh out of that. Granted, I grew up in Cali so we did a bit more than one chapter... just the same, it was typically covering the heroics on both sides. I'm just going to state my point from the previous post since you completely overlooked it. In US, we learn about slavery. In Germany, they learn about Nazis. In Japan, they don't learn about the war crimes. I don't know enough about Japanese education to know if they teach it or not, nor the extent of it. I do know what Mani said is true about the education here; which based on what I've read in Boxer's bio, the Koreans use the same method. Thus, if they are educated in it, the goal is to pass a test on it and nothing more. Retention past that will be limited. It is a flawed system.No sense in even going here but... with the way the system is now, even if Japanese spent the same amount of time learning about their war crimes as they did studying English... well, the end result would still be exactly what you have now. Getting Japan to change their entire education system is a chore beyond my imagination. Though, I'd say that and other flawed education systems are part of the larger problem,. That's a very hypocritical way of thinking. You're preaching that Korea should analyze and understand the tragedies to learn from it. How about Japan? Shouldn't it also analyze and understand this so it wouldn't happen again? As I kept saying, it's quickly being forgotten over there. Seems like you read my statement completely opposite to my intention... sorry, English is slowly slipping from me so things like this happen. My focus was that the tragedies of those eras we wish to forget continue to this day. The problem lies in how we view those tragedies from the past. In my opinion, time spent crying about them over analyzing their root cause prevents us from being able to see the cause forming and cut it before it strikes. Largely, we do not understand how it is in our nature (as humans) to act in such a brutal manner. Before we even begin to approach the problem we should look at how this aspect of our nature causes us to feel so shamed that we repress our awareness of it.MoltkeWarding: If you are not in a position to judge, you are not even in a position to think. Everyone judges to one extent or another, and the responsibilities attached, unless one lives in complete dissapation, are unavoidable. Judgement, whatever the quality of one's faculties, can be redeemed by simple honesty. Unfortunately, this requires a lot of unlearning today, when public indoctrination in both oriental and "free" nations fill our heads with simplistic moralism and superficial cliches. For someone who does his best to fill his paragraphs with needless SAT words I'm shocked at the level of ignorance in this. Honestly, most people who are decent in games tend to have done well on the SAT. I'm not really going to go in that direction as I'm trying to discuss something over measuring my internet cock. Either way, despite my horrid forum grammar and spelling, I've actually been published so there's really no sense in trying to mask your lack of understanding with pretty words. Also... I usually consider people who do this to be douches, but your spelling of the words you're trying to use as well as the grammar and flow you're structing them within clearly show they aren't within your common vernacular. When writing the first rule is to always consider the position of one's audience.Moving on... your summary in the first point is that sans judgment one cannot think. Almost every major school of thought and method of analysis would disagree with that statement. If one cannot shed judgment they cannot think. Judgment is the barrier to clear thought. The original roots of Buddhism and Christianity both forwarded this as well as every major school of philosophy. I understand your reference and agree with it on some levels... as humans are only capable of perception based thinking we base the root of our thoughts on our judgments; which are formed from our life experiences. However, this does not mean we are unable to shed those through analytical methods. Here I do not blame you for being prejudiced; no thinking man can help that. I'm blaming you for immodesty, for being someone who hopes to enjoy the fruits of conclusion without harvesting his premises. So... I'm prejudice because I don't consider Americans possess the ground to judge others due to the acts we committed to enjoy the successes we do? I'm just not sure what to say there... | ||
koreasilver
9109 Posts
So why is it that Koreans are so aware of the past while the Japanese aren't? Obviously it isn't the education system that's the main problem, it's the general attitude of the Japanese government and their people has when it comes to the issues of the past. Also, your entire first paragraph in response to Molte is completely pointless trash; don't spew that kind of completely speculative ad hominem shit if you want anyone to take you seriously. | ||
MK
United States496 Posts
Because one thing you could notice here, especially if you live in Tokyo, is people are willing to go forward and they are not scared about the future. Japanese people don't really care about the past. look at how people change their toothbrush (i change it once a month and my cousin, Japanese native, once every 2 weeks) , their TV (every 2 years), their cars (every 2 years), their everything. and take a look at their city : everything is re-build and no one cares about cultural things blablabla (ok, exception is the imperial palace but THIS is god-like so no one can touch) etc. What i'm trying to say here is : japanese don't understand why people in China or in Korea are always taking about ww2 and why should the younger generation (innocent) ask pardon for the old generation (considered as "war criminals"). My cousin told me once that she doesn't understand why in Europe, we have such commemorations every years about the holocaust and why it's such a big deal. It's past, end, now, let's look at the future and not always blaming around the past. And one last thing is about the "war criminals". Ok, there are some people who actually consider these guys as "war criminals" but many Jp friends of mine tell me that still they were only fighting for their country and thei are criminal because Japan has lost the war. If Japan has won, these guys would prolly be heroes No offense to anyone, really and I ain't saying this good or bad, i'm just saying that the way of thinking is different and I try to get the Japanese point of view since I'm here and I can discuss about it. | ||
sk`
Japan442 Posts
Heh, no more rubbish than what it was in reply to. I'd say Japanese are unaware of their past in comparison to Koreans because their culture doesn't reflect on it as a whole. I do not live in Korea so I don't know, but, if one's mother/father harps on about WW2 even though they have no direct link to it, you too will continue that. That's just pure speculation as I don't know. I think MK's point below summarizes it. Japanese seem to enjoy moving forward, especially the Tokyo population base. Compared to other population bases their economic structure is designed to give rise to renewal consumerism and this is also going to lead them to think more about the future than the past. I'm not going to praise the Japanese way or the Korean way as one should be mindful of both the past and the future. In refence to MK's post I've found Japanese tend to be exceptionally nervous about the future compared to Americans. MK: So you're in the Tokyo area then? If so we should get some games in... though I'm pretty bad at SC due to starting so late and being old. | ||
MK
United States496 Posts
This is the problem of japanese being always looking for the newest thing : no SC anymore T.T | ||
v1rtu0so
United States140 Posts
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Manifesto7
Osaka27059 Posts
On July 08 2009 11:47 v1rtu0so wrote: If the Japanese were really that ignorant of their history, as some suggest, I don't understand the anti-Korea sentiment of many Japanese people. The only way such widespread (and illogical) hatred could have spawned is if they know the history but somehow have a very twisted perspective of it. What "anti-Korean" sentiment? Other than obscure manga and a few bitter old men, Korea is insanely popular in Japan. This comes despite constant media reports about how anti-Japanese some Koreans are (whether or not this is the case). For one, I know that many japanese claim that koreans are being ungrateful for "modernizing" korea during the occupation. Do you really know this, or is it just something you have read about? Because I have read about that, but never ever witnessed that. | ||
MK
United States496 Posts
On July 08 2009 11:47 v1rtu0so wrote: If the Japanese were really that ignorant of their history, as some suggest, I don't understand the anti-Korea sentiment of many Japanese people. The only way such widespread (and illogical) hatred could have spawned is if they know the history but somehow have a very twisted perspective of it. For one, I know that many japanese claim that koreans are being ungrateful for "modernizing" korea during the occupation. ok, let's (try to) stop just using "many". Because it doesn't mean anything. If you are like saying "the majority of japanese are claming that blablabla", it's untrue. Like I've said, and Sk -who lives in japan and I guess he isn't japanese- confirms, the majority here just doesn't care about the past. | ||
MK
United States496 Posts
What "anti-Korean" sentiment? Other than obscure manga and a few bitter old men, Korea is insanely popular in Japan. This comes despite constant media reports about how anti-Japanese some Koreans are (whether or not this is the case). +1. especially everything about the pop culture. many jp listen to the k-pop. Same for some chinese singers who are pretty famous here (jay chow). from what I can tell, Japan is one of the most welcoming country in the world. | ||
v1rtu0so
United States140 Posts
But certainly, that is not the impression I got from my encounters. | ||
MK
United States496 Posts
On July 08 2009 11:53 v1rtu0so wrote: Let's hope what you say is true. But certainly, that is not the impression I got from my encounters. ? explain me because I've missed something. from what encounters ? Because Japanese, especially when they travel, rarely talk about politics or "severe issues". | ||
v1rtu0so
United States140 Posts
Japanese media online - 2C, 2ch, in fact, most of japanese netizens seem to be anti-korea. Not to mention right-wing politicians. To clarify, I would love it if what you said were true. Sadly, I am not really getting that impression. | ||
MK
United States496 Posts
about students, sorry, no argument. never been to a diverse hs and Japanese school are full of... japanese lol and students there usually never talk about this kind of things. and finally, right-wing politicians in every country I guess are more "conservative" and "blindly patriot" than the left/central... | ||
Manifesto7
Osaka27059 Posts
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