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On March 20 2009 01:08 BWdero wrote:
Fusionsdf, Pikachu did indeed defend himself, he challenged the accusations directed at him directly as opposed to suggesting someone else to lynch. You know, I really don't like your suggested manner of defense. Why? Well let us say that Pikachu did defend himself in the manner you suggest. He has now accused another player of being mafia and/or deserving of being lynched. Now, according to you, this person should defend himself by presenting us with another lynchworthy person. Now it doesn't take a rocketscientist to see that such a code of conduct could very easily lead to a massive fingerpointing war. Which is exactly what we do not want.
nope, it leads to a massive clue analyzing war. which, while not amazingly helpful on day one does give us a baseline for player behavior and WILL be useful on future days
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Ace, the way I see calling out vigi hits is like this. You are correct if the vigi tends to contribute to analysis etc anyways. However, SoG is correct if the vigi is more of an unknown that doesn't stand out/ act much in most games.
Less active vigi:
1.The person calls out their hit. We will assume it is a target discussed in the thread, because it would be kinda silly for a vigi to just hit someone randomly.
2. There are now 2 situations that can arise.
A) That target is mafia. In this situation, the vigi just added themselves to the mafia hit list, which means that someone else will not be hit. How is this a bad thing if the vigi doesn't tend to contribute anyways?
B) That target is town. In this situation, the mafia has 2 options:
a) They hit the target, negating the vigi hit. They have to kill off the vigi ASAP in this situation anyways, lest the vigi hit someone else.
b) They let the hit go through. In this situation, they have a little more leeway, but they cannot afford to have that vigi still alive when the GF dies. Again, not a big deal if the vigi doesn't contribute much.
Active vigi not on the list:
Should do the hit quietly. If this person wasn't a priority target for the mafia already, they are now and there aren't enough medics to cover.
Player on the list:
You should know what you are doing with this anyways. I'll trust your judgement
I believe the vigi should make a judgement call based on their activity levels in this game and previous games.
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On March 20 2009 08:31 Ace wrote:
It doesn't quite work that way. Remember, the entire point of a Vigi calling out a hit is to prove their innocence. Sure, you can assume you lower Mafia KP by 1 - but it's a chance I'm sure Mafia are willing to take so the Vigi can't do it. Hence, we go another day with an unconfirmed Vigilante.
Then it's a stretch to assume the Medics will protect the Vigilante AND the Mafia will hit him in the same night. The other problem also being is that what happens if the Vigi is a fake, but a real vigi targets him and he gets medic protected? x_x
Lastly, for all this to work the Vigi hit has to go through and it has to hit red. If it kills an innocent we are back to square one.
We're not talking about that plan anymore Ace.
"the entire point of a Vigi calling out a hit is to prove their innocence"
Now we're now talking about the fact that the only thing getting in the way of medics knowing people they protect are innocent are the 3 kills vigis can give. Vigis can't kill day 1 (according to you) so medics know they can trust day 1 protections but after that if vigis are silent they will make medics more uneasy than they have to be. If vigis just say they are going to kill someone after they pm their hit but don't say who they will hit, the mafia can't block it, the medics will know they can't 100% trust protection that night and can take necessary precautions, the mafia might take out the vigi but at least his hit will probably go through, and we don't have to put medics onto the vigi because they can't prove they are a vigi since they aren't saying who they will hit (if they survive somehow and hit a red I suppose they can prove it later and it might be obvious if vigis go one day at a time and all follow this). This would make the vigi essentially a suicide bomber though so if the vigi is a good player its probably not in their best interest. In any case, its all up to the vigi ultimately to decide what they will do.
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United States7488 Posts
The Mafia CAN'T block the Vigi hit if the Vigilante PMs his hit in BEFORE he makes the hit know public.
Unless someone in the Mafia mysteriously discovered Time Travel in which case we are all fucked regardless.
This has nothing to do with the Vigilante confirmation strategy. I've never liked that strategy because it has way too many ways to go wrong.
What it DOES have to do with is it makes sure that the Medics, when they successfully protect someone, they will know 100% for sure that the person they protected is innocent.
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United States7488 Posts
On March 20 2009 08:31 Ace wrote:
The other problem also being is that what happens if the Vigi is a fake, but a real vigi targets him and he gets medic protected? x_x
Wouldn't this be avoided if the other vigilante called out his hit?
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Pyrr, the medics are unlikely to kill anyone who is seriously called out as a target in the thread. It is unlikely that a vigi will hit someone other than a serious target with their hit. If they do, it is unlikely they will hit anyone off that list. That list is likely where the medics will be. Medics stopping vigi hits is an unlikely scenario at best.
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United States7488 Posts
If the Vigilante is going to come out and make it known that he made the hit after the fact what does he lose by instead saying so beforehand?
The Mafia can't do anything about a Vigilante making a hit once it has already been PM'ed in. They cannot stop it at that point. The town, however, can do things about it. They can fuck it up if they don't know about it.
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@Semi: and....why would the other vigi call his hit out too? That would be insane. Now you have TWO vigi kills that can be messed with. You guys keep forgetting this plan at best works if the target is MAFIA. Otherwise it's always a loss.
Also remember the chances of a vigi hitting a medic target, especially if we assume everyone is paying attention is 0. The target would have to be someone highly suspected as you guys put it right? The only other way is if the Vigi did a random kill and the medic did a random protection and both were the same people - something you can't solve easily in this game. Medics are going to use Night 1 to figure things out, and from then IF their protted target is hit on any other night they can just retrace steps to figure if it was a random vigi hit or a Mafia hit. What you're suggesting puts too much out there for little gain. Really, no one needs to know publicly who's going to be hit by a Vigilante before it happens. sure he can send his PM in before the Mafia, but it doesn't mean shit unless the guy flips MAFIA. If it's innocent - we go right back to square one.
@Qatol: The way the plan was worded, I thought it was a Vigi comes out, claims who he is going to hit and then go from there. If a Vigi hits someone and they flip Mafia, then they should come out and claim it and prove it. THIS is what I've been supporting - doing it in reverse.
But ok let's go with your setup.
Less active vigi:
1.The person calls out their hit. We will assume it is a target discussed in the thread, because it would be kinda silly for a vigi to just hit someone randomly.
2. There are now 2 situations that can arise.
A) That target is mafia. In this situation, the vigi just added themselves to the mafia hit list, which means that someone else will not be hit. How is this a bad thing if the vigi doesn't tend to contribute anyways?
B) That target is town. In this situation, the mafia has 2 options:
a) They hit the target, negating the vigi hit. They have to kill off the vigi ASAP in this situation anyways, lest the vigi hit someone else.
b) They let the hit go through. In this situation, they have a little more leeway, but they cannot afford to have that vigi still alive when the GF dies. Again, not a big deal if the vigi doesn't contribute much.
2A.) this is the only reward. If the target is Mafia and gets hit, nothing else matters from this point.
2Ba.) Regardless of which "option" the Mafia has - both fuck the town over. If they negate the Vigi hit you have to remember - The vigi once again goes unconfirmed. you keep forgetting that the longer this Vigi goes unconfirmed the more chances it is for him to mess up his hit. They do NOT have to kill the Vigi - in fact if I were Mafia and the town was on the verge of hitting an innocent I'd probably let the Vigi live to do it again. In this scenario he's just extra KP for the Mafia. If he was ever even close to hitting a Mafia we'd be back at situation 1. Since we're at situation 2, he's not - hence the Mafia have nothing to fear here.
2Bb.) Let the hit go through and the town is fucked. There is nothing positive about this scenario at all. It IS a big deal. Whether the GF lives or dies doesn't matter here: The Vigi used his only shot to kill a Townie. He can't be confirmed. What has the town gained? Whether he contributes or not isn't going to matter if this happened. He hasn't helped the town.
@Pyrr: You can't be serious. Why would the medics be uneasy about protections on Night 2? Because vigis are active? So what? Like I said before, if people are paying attention it's not a big deal.
If vigis just say they are going to kill someone after they pm their hit but don't say who they will hit, the mafia can't block it, the medics will know they can't 100% trust protection that night and can take necessary precautions, the mafia might take out the vigi but at least his hit will probably go through, and we don't have to put medics onto the vigi because they can't prove they are a vigi since they aren't saying who they will hit (if they survive somehow and hit a red I suppose they can prove it later and it might be obvious if vigis go one day at a time and all follow this). This would make the vigi essentially a suicide bomber though so if the vigi is a good player its probably not in their best interest. In any case, its all up to the vigi ultimately to decide what they will do.
If the Vigis say they are going to kill someone, but don't say then what is the point of saying it? Now no one knows WHO he hit and it doesn't matter what anybody flips that night - he can just say "yea I hit that guy". Why would the Vigi do this? Which means the medics won't protect them as you say - which means the mafia won't have to kill him as you say - which means if he once again doesn't hit a mafia then what was the point in the first place. Get it now?
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On March 20 2009 09:18 semioldguy wrote:
If the Vigilante is going to come out and make it known that he made the hit after the fact what does he lose by instead saying so beforehand?
The Mafia can't do anything about a Vigilante making a hit once it has already been PM'ed in. They cannot stop it at that point. The town, however, can do things about it. They can fuck it up if they don't know about it.
This is ONLY true if the hit turns out to be MAFIA. The Mafia don't NEED to stop the hit if it hits an innocent.
1.) vigi PMs Chuiu for a hit
2.) Vigi roleclaims publicly to the town he just wanted to hit player X.
3.) Player X flips Mafia
In this case, the Vigi is confirmed because no one could stop it unless medics just happened to prot the guy. Highly unlikely if it was a top suspect.
But this is the likely scenario that you all keep ignoring:
1.)Vigi PMs Chuiu for a hit
2.) Vigi roleclaims publicly to the town he just wanted to hit player X.
3.) Player X flips Innocent
What do you do now?
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Ace, semioldguy has pointed out that 2Ba cannot happen.
Therefore, I will only consider 2Bb. Which is worse for the town, a vigi missing a suspected player or that vigi waiting, allowing the town to lynch that suspected player, and having a possibility of dying while he waits? I just don't see why hitting someone we think has a high chance of being mafia hurts the town.
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On March 20 2009 09:13 Qatol wrote:
Pyrr, the medics are unlikely to kill anyone who is seriously called out as a target in the thread. It is unlikely that a vigi will hit someone other than a serious target with their hit. If they do, it is unlikely they will hit anyone off that list. That list is likely where the medics will be. Medics stopping vigi hits is an unlikely scenario at best.
Exactly what I thought and why I thought Ace's worries seemed extreme.
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I'm not a fan of the vigi plan, as I think it hurts us more than it helps us.
First of all, it helps the mafia figure out roles.
Furthermore, what happens if a mafia false-claims vigi? obviously if a mafia is not hit we can't trust said "vigi", what happens afterward? does that person stay on the radar? or do we assume they are innocent from there on?
Or should the case be that any vigi who outs themselves would be expected to be hit by the mafia the very next night?
THEN AGAIN, why would the mafia target a vigi who has used his/her power, and is now essentially a green?
I think this plan just promotes the chance of false-claiming, the very probable killing of innocents and mafia trickery.
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By the way, I feel I should point this out. It says in the roles post:
On March 11 2009 23:03 Chuiu wrote:
A special note on roles: All roles must be used at night and only the Detective clue check ability and Medic ability may be used on Day 1. Roles may be declared before night but they will not happen until night. Sheriff and Mayor will hide the roles of the elected players so that a Detective role check will show them as Sheriff/Mayor and nothing else.
I'm pretty sure all the medics know that they should be using their abilities tonight to protect valuable players. However, I'd like to remind detectives that they should use their clue-check ability. Specifically, they should be asking if specific sentences in the Day One posts are clues. At least this should help us figure out how clues are described in this game and give us a start for clue analysis.
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Well so far it seems like the problem with vigi's as they send in their hits is:
1) Do vigi's publicly claim their hits after sending PMs to Chuiu, thus medics don't protect vigi hits ensuring the hit goes through regardless if the target is town/mafia?
2) Do vigi's stay silent and pray medics don't protect the target?
Am I getting this right? I will post my opinions once I get this cleared up.
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On March 20 2009 10:13 JL13 wrote:
Well so far it seems like the problem with vigi's as they send in their hits is:
1) Do vigi's publicly claim their hits after sending PMs to Chuiu, thus medics don't protect vigi hits ensuring the hit goes through regardless if the target is town/mafia?
2) Do vigi's stay silent and pray medics don't protect the target?
Am I getting this right? I will post my opinions once I get this cleared up.
1) Yes that's the idea, if a vigi were to claim he would only claim after PMing Chuiu his hit.
2) As long as the vigi is targeting a known suspect of the town, he shouldn't have to worry about that player being protected - this is of course assuming we have no medics purposely messing up the game. The only reason a vigi would speak up beforehand is to prove his identity as blue - but that only works if he hits a mafia successfully.
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United States7488 Posts
@ Ace
There is no Vigi plan to confirm in what I am proposing.
Now... what does the town hove to lose by a Vgi stating his target?
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United States7488 Posts
On March 20 2009 09:33 Ace wrote:
@Semi: and....why would the other vigi call his hit out too? That would be insane. Now you have TWO vigi kills that can be messed with. You guys keep forgetting this plan at best works if the target is MAFIA. Otherwise it's always a loss.
No... now we have two vigi kills that aren't going to be messed with. How can the Mafia mess with a Vigi hit? Do they have secret Medics or something?
Also I am not speaking of this in terms of the plan that someone else came up with earlier. Drop the plan.... none of us are talking about that as a plan anymore.
How is the Vigilante claiming a target that flips innocent any more of a loss that a Vigilante that doesn't claim and hits the same innocent target? If anything it helps that they called out beforehand because now we can have a little more direction in clue searching whereas before we are just blind and may misinterpret a clue.
For example... the Vigi calls out his hit beforehand. If the number of innocents dead is Mafia killpower plus one, we will know he is a vigilante if we know that all Vigilantes are calling their targets. If it is still equal to Mafia kill power and that target died, then we haven't lost any knowledge, but we have made the mafia kill one less person to put suspicion on a now green player. How is either of these situations always a loss?
Also remember the chances of a vigi hitting a medic target, especially if we assume everyone is paying attention is 0. The target would have to be someone highly suspected as you guys put it right? The only other way is if the Vigi did a random kill and the medic did a random protection and both were the same people - something you can't solve easily in this game. Medics are going to use Night 1 to figure things out, and from then IF their protted target is hit on any other night they can just retrace steps to figure if it was a random vigi hit or a Mafia hit.
Yes, the target would have to be highly suspected, which means that Medics likely won't be on those players anyway... however there is another role that may target those players with their abilities and then we would be wasting time and that player's ability.
What you're suggesting puts too much out there for little gain. Really, no one needs to know publicly who's going to be hit by a Vigilante before it happens. sure he can send his PM in before the Mafia, but it doesn't mean shit unless the guy flips MAFIA. If it's innocent - we go right back to square one.
Putting too much out there? What are we putting out there exactly? Information for the town that the Mafia can't really do anything about unless it also helps us? How is the target claim any more of a loss than a Vigilante who doesn;t and teh target still flips over innocent?
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On March 20 2009 10:06 Versatile wrote:
I'm not a fan of the vigi plan, as I think it hurts us more than it helps us.
First of all, it helps the mafia figure out roles.
Furthermore, what happens if a mafia false-claims vigi? obviously if a mafia is not hit we can't trust said "vigi", what happens afterward? does that person stay on the radar? or do we assume they are innocent from there on?
Or should the case be that any vigi who outs themselves would be expected to be hit by the mafia the very next night?
THEN AGAIN, why would the mafia target a vigi who has used his/her power, and is now essentially a green?
I think this plan just promotes the chance of false-claiming, the very probable killing of innocents and mafia trickery.
Why does it matter if a mafia false-claims vigi? We aren't trusting the person claiming vigi unless they hit red. We assume nothing about them if they claim vigi and hit an innocent. However, a suspect was still hit.
The mafia might target them, the mafia might not. It doesn't really matter.
The ONLY drawback to this plan that I see is that the mafia might avoid hitting them and hit someone else if they're aiming for blues. Innocents will die regardless. False-claiming doesn't help the mafia. In fact, it hurts them. If there are more claiming vigi than the role numbers say there should be, you have a short list of suspects.
Let me reiterate: vigis who miss get NO TRUST from the town.
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On March 20 2009 10:13 JL13 wrote:
2) Do vigi's stay silent and pray medics don't protect the target?
Am I the only one questioning why a medic would protect a suspected mafia or a potential vigilante target? Pyrr's plan right now makes no sense. It would make some sense if the vigilante role claimed to SoG in private. That would actually produce the same results without the vigilante risking death. If the hit doesn't go through then SoG can publicly call the fake vigi out and it's probably gg for that dude.
Anyways, what's so important about getting the vigi exposed. I thought it'd be fine with him just keeping to the shadows and coming out in obvious situations. As long as medic doesn't act a fool and protect someone who is generally suspected of being mafia (even someone like Pikachu) then I'm sure vigis and medics won't collide.
On March 20 2009 08:01 LucasWoJ wrote:
The difference in style between Ver and Ace is staggering.
I would have to agree wholeheartedly with this one.
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Ok I think I have a better handle on this. Vigis, if smart, will only target a highly suspicious persyn with their 1 and only hit. Medics, if smart, won't protect such people. Let's say vigi's don't call out hits (either that they will hit or who they will hit). If they hit a mafia, they can claim so afterward and a DT can check it with a clue check on the part of the day post linking to a mafia being killed (saves the DT a role check). If they hit a blue/green, that sucks. They should probably just keep quiet about it and do their best to contribute for the rest of the game as if they are green. A vigi may want to stay quiet after hitting a red I haven't analyzed the pros and cons of that.
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EPT
