EPT[MSL] Ro16 Week 2-1 - Page 80
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36362 Posts
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CTStalker
Canada9720 Posts
On February 20 2009 07:20 Hot_Bid wrote: exactly. 14cc is way riskier than 9 pool is, regardless of what you think "cheese" is defined as. this is what it boils down too. the word cheese itself should just be disregarded, if that's what's hanging people up. 14cc is definitely riskier than 9pool, and 9pool is definitely a standard zvt build | ||
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RivetHead
United States842 Posts
On February 20 2009 07:14 Hot_Bid wrote: You are simply stating "risky eco builds are not cheese because they are not cheese." Simply stating it does not make it true. I still can't believe you compared 14cc to standard forge FE PvZ, one relies on scouting to adapt and get just enough defenses based on what you scout, and one is a blind abusive build that goes forward regardless of what your opponent does and autoloses to many standard builds. How can you post that 14cc = bisu build analogy with a straight face? Ridiculous. By your definition, five hatcheries before pool and forty command centers before rax are not cheese builds. They are just "risky eco builds". I don't see how this has anything to do with the argument. What I mean by saying that eco builds are risky yet not cheese is that for me the actual denotation of cheese is that you have to attack within the first 5 minutes (actually, with the efficiency of nearly all the pro gamers with their build orders and scouting the timing window for cheese might actually be smaller than that, although not by much) with it. Therefore, anything that automatically takes longer than 5 minutes to attack your opponent with the intent of winning with that attack is not cheese, all though it can definitely be an all in. Of course it seems you see it in a completely different way, and I don't think you or me are going to convince each other otherwise. I thought my definition was more or less in line with the traditional view on the matter. And there is no hard accurate definition of cheese, or else we wouldn't be arguing over it. Of course, that doesn't mean you don't have the right to your opinion with which many people might agree with you, especially the way the game is nowadays. It seems to me you changed the definition to fit with the way people play nowadays. | ||
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Zozma
United States1626 Posts
Or Cheese: A build that aims to take a game-winning advantage while at the same thing putting everything on the line and easily losing against some openings? I get the feeling Hot_Bid says number two. | ||
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
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RivetHead
United States842 Posts
On February 20 2009 07:29 Zozma wrote: Cheese: A very fast attack? Or Cheese: A build that aims to take a game-winning advantage while at the same thing putting everything on the line and easily losing against some openings? I get the feeling Hot_Bid says number two. The problem is the number of strategies that are considered cheese are much much greater by the second definition than the first. | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36362 Posts
On February 20 2009 07:28 RivetHead wrote: What I mean by saying that eco builds are risky yet not cheese is that for me the actual denotation of cheese is that you have to attack within the first 5 minutes (actually, with the efficiency of nearly all the pro gamers with their build orders and scouting the timing window for cheese might actually be smaller than that, although not by much) with it. Therefore, anything that automatically takes longer than 5 minutes to attack your opponent with the intent of winning with that attack is not cheese, all though it can definitely be an all in. Of course it seems you see it in a completely different way, and I don't think you or me are going to convince each other otherwise. I thought my definition was more or less in line with the traditional view on the matter. And there is no hard accurate definition of cheese, or else we wouldn't be arguing over it. Of course, that doesn't mean you don't have the right to your opinion with which many people might agree with you, especially the way the game is nowadays. It seems to me you changed the definition to fit with the way people play nowadays. if you ignore cheese and look at its central factor: risk. as BO risk increases, the game becomes more of a coinflip, and less determined by the players skill as it is by which build order they select. sure, you can make an argument that predicting build orders and player tendencies is a skill, but in most cases the riskier the build, the more cheesy it is, especially when you do it without scouting or regard to what your opponent does. when you look at the 14cc vs 9p, or certain allins, you must ask yourself, which of these builds brings the match closer to a 50-50 skill-independent coinflip? in the savior and upmagic game, it was upmagic's build that was much riskier. simply tacking on an arbitrary 5 minute rule for cheese does not make what i've said false. | ||
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kazokun
United States163 Posts
On February 20 2009 07:31 RivetHead wrote: The problem is the number of strategies that are considered cheese are much much greater by the second definition than the first. How exactly is this a problem? | ||
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JIJIyO
Canada1957 Posts
On February 19 2009 19:16 AttackZerg wrote: Yes, flash 14cced and gave himself the option of dying to a 9pool. btw even funnier, last msl jaedong beat upmagics 14cc ( i think) with a 9pool It was on a version of Byzantium if I recall correctly. Now that's just funny. YESSSSS SAVIOR!!!! And I'm with Hot_Bid on this. 9pool is not fucking cheese. Maybe anything 8 pool and under is cheese, but definitely not 9 pool. 14cc I consider it cheese as well. So, Hot_Bid is spot on imo. | ||
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MachineHead
United States151 Posts
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JohnBall
Brazil1272 Posts
By the way: the definition of cheese doesn't have anything to do with speed of attack or risk. The former (a very quick attack) is called rush, not cheese. The later (a very risk BO) is called all-in, not cheese. As I see it, cheese is simply a strategy that aims to throw your oponent off balance by taking very unorthodox decisions, that usually leads the game to a direction that it would not "normally" take. A canon rush is cheesy. Proxy Barracs is cheesing. Sunken Rush is cheese. Those examples are build orders that are far from the "normal" BO. However, this is a very loose definition, as you can see, given that what is considered "normal" might change with the meta-game. Once, bunker rushing zerg players was considered cheesing as well as DT rushing terran or protoss players. Same thing with manner pylon. When people started to do those strategies, everyone called then cheesy. Nowadays, however, almost all of those are pretty standard. Now, 9 pooling, which is the topic of debate here, is not a cheese build, nor a rush and neither a all-in BO. Its the second most standard zerg opening, behind only 12 hatch. The terran player was taking a huge risk by going 14 cc, betting that the zerg payer would go 12 hatch. His risk didn't pay off. Savior didn't do anything out of the ordinary, just played a slightly less standard opening. | ||
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anderoo
Canada1876 Posts
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
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Zozma
United States1626 Posts
On February 13 2009 02:24 Zozma wrote: Or until Leta crushes him and wins the series 2-1 next time. (posted this in the MSL ro16 1-1 thread) | ||
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InDaHouse
Sweden956 Posts
 free didn't see  fOrGG proxy rax. Very unlucky... ForGG:s recent skill will not bring this MSL good games. | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On February 20 2009 08:35 Zozma wrote: Far be it from me to pass up an opportunity to brag: (posted this in the MSL ro16 1-1 thread) Incredible, don't pat yourself on the back too hard now. This aside I can't in good conscience be a Leta fan until he actually proves he can bio play against zerg. I have yet to see an MnM from him. | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8551 Posts
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
Cheese has always been used to describe game-ending rush builds that come when your opponent has little or no means of defending against them. Cheese is mostly in the eye of the victim, for example, people without detection will call a dt rush cheese, they might call 1 hatch lurk cheese, etc. The term is often used in place of "cheap." Think of it as a low blow, things of that nature. It's a silly excuse that people use when they are unprepared for something, that's really all it is. Neither 14cc or 9pool can be classified as cheesy or cheap in my eyes, and I think arguing what is absolutely cheese and what isn't is kinda dumb | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8551 Posts
On February 20 2009 08:39 InDaHouse wrote: It sucks free didn't see fOrGG proxy rax. Very unlucky... ForGG:s recent skill will not bring this MSL good games.If he plays a protoss. His TvT and TvZ are still good. If I'm right, he'll be playing either Stork or Kwanro, and Stork vs Free wouldn't be very good either. | ||
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RivetHead
United States842 Posts
Well if I'm reading a live report thread, and I see like 5 posts spamming "CHEESE, FLASH IS CHEESING" when hes going 14 cc like seemingly every other game he does, it is certaintly confusing. 1 base dts could be considered cheese, double starport in tvz, and other unorthodox strategies. If 14 cc is cheese, what about 1 rax 1-2 marine fast expand? At what point do you draw the line? I rather like all in builds, but like someone said on this page, that isn't necesarily a cheese. I am think about bisu vs skyhigh game 3 where he proxied his robo, but it was after his fast two gates. That is a definitely risky build (and some might say cheesy), and if his attack failed he would have probably lost. But to me that is more of the definition of an all in build. Using the BOs as descriptions like 14cc, 14nex, 3 hatch pre-pool is more accurate to the amount of risk vs reward than a word like cheese. In fact, I really avoid the word and tend not to use it at all in describing builds as rush, fast eco builds, standard variants, etc. make more sense and are a lot more descriptive. To me cheese should be rare | ||
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