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United States32927 Posts
Also, VERY interesting update from David Kim regarding some changes they're considering:
https://www.reddit.com/r/BattleAces/comments/1ec4vnn/dev_update_725/
Hello everyone,
Thank you for the confinued discussions and feedback during and post CBT1. We wanted to give you a quick update on things we've been working on with the game.
Unit Changes
We've been exploring quite a lot of unit changes post CBT1. Overall, we've been exploring things such as new units, tuning under-used units, changing units with vague roles to be more clear in role, and exploring potential ways to create new ways to play.
One fun example to point out here is we are exploring ways to make Turret based defensive playstyles to be more viable. We currently have the Turret's role changed to very strong vs ground (except against BIG), and Heavy Turret to be very strong vs. air (except against BIG AIR). Now that they're very strong for cost on the defense, they seem to combo very well with units that have high mobility and also seems to work well in a low number of bases + fast teching type of playstyles.
Another change we're exploring that might be worth discussing is locking tier 1 slots to be 1 RED only unit and 1 AA unit. The question we had here was bringing 1 melee + 1 ranged RED only units in tier 1 made the tier 1 relationships have a bit less variety than we could have if the slots were locked. Also, we strongly believe matches that end at tier 1 in Battle Aces tend to turn out to be a pure micro battle, so the games that go to tier 2 or 3 are more fun to play. During this testing, we wondered if some unique Tier 2 RED only unit options might be interesting while going this route, so we've been testing that as well.
Easy to Understand Unit Counters
On this front we've been exploring setting up a straight forward rule for players to understand to get a quick gist of how basic unit counters work in the game. We're working through creating a "Counter Square" type of relationship where: BIG counters SPLASH counters SMALL counters ANTI-BIG counters BIG. We're talking about maybe showing this very visually somewhere during deck building. So for example if I'm losing often against someone using Assaultbots, I can check that unit's description to notice that it's SMALL. So I can look for a SPLASH damage unit to add to my deck.
Here's a quick mock up in Paint:
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https://preview.redd.it/mf6uz277qped1.png?width=211&format=png&auto=webp&s=bd36a4e8bb22d51dc0010e6e2da89667ba7ad764
Improving Default Focus Fire mode
Thanks to many feedback provided, we've been iterating on a better default version where players can more easily do what they wish. But we still must protect brand new, non RTS players from things such as: Right clicking on a unit in the back while not attacking anything + getting your whole army killed or A left clicking on a building while losing your whole army.
We're currently testing a version where there's a priority to focus firing to allow for the ability to focus fire without wasting DPS. For example, in the case above where a new player has right clicked a unit in the back by accident, all the units that can focus fire that unit will do so, and others that can't without moving will attack whatever else they can attack efficiently.
And please keep in mind this is just for the default mode for new players.
Sticky Focus Fire Option
Focus firing for new players isn't the only thing we've been exploring on the base controls side. We've been playing around with the idea of "Sticky Focus Fire" as well. What this is is units remembering what they were focusing on when they can even past other commands being issued afterwards. So you will be able to more precisely control exactly what you want to focus down. For example, say I'm using Snipers and want to focus down a Heavy Ballista so I right click on it, but I need to kite at the same time... So I issue a move order afterwards, and then an attack move order after that... the Snipers will remember the previous focus fire order and focus the Heavy Ballista if its still in range to be able to focus (if it's not, Snipers will follow the attack move order that was issued last instead). Another simpler example is: I'm trying to focus down an expansion that is almost dead with my Katbus while moving them towards the edge of the map... the Focus Fire command will be remembered even after I issue the move command. And if players want to cancel out of the Sticky Focus Fire mode, they can simply hit the 'S' key to stop.
This one is a more out there idea that is very different, but we figured it'll be a fun discussion topic to share an idea we're testing out even if it has a lower chance to make it to the final game.
Thank you as always, thoughts and discussions around these will be greatly appreciated, and we will continue to keep you updated going forward.
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On July 26 2024 06:25 Waxangel wrote:
Another change we're exploring that might be worth discussing is locking tier 1 slots to be 1 RED only unit and 1 AA unit. The question we had here was bringing 1 melee + 1 ranged RED only units in tier 1 made the tier 1 relationships have a bit less variety than we could have if the slots were locked. Also, we strongly believe matches that end at tier 1 in Battle Aces tend to turn out to be a pure micro battle, so the games that go to tier 2 or 3 are more fun to play. During this testing, we wondered if some unique Tier 2 RED only unit options might be interesting while going this route, so we've been testing that as well.
What actually goes through his mind when he is suggesting restrictions as a solution to an absolutely arbitrary problem.
If you want to go that route then just add another slot for it like I suggested, or you could always just reduce the tech cost or build time if it really is an issue. I'm sure whoever is going to remake the tutorial is going to love the unnecessary work.
His track record on what is 'fun' has a bit too many blemishes to hide.
Units having unique niches are what makes them interesting.
Hard forcing a formula is just going to make everything bland, and will definitely have a negative effect on variety.
The mass tier1 games have produced some of the best games to play as well as watch.
Entire post just seems incredibly out of touch and extremely disappointing to read.
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Beta is opening for signing up again. Can't wait, literally dreamt about the game few nights ago.
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United States32927 Posts
Next beta phased announced for November 7th
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Clashes with zerospace alpha test, gonna be an intense month of testing for me
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On October 08 2024 15:16 ETisME wrote:
Clashes with zerospace alpha test, gonna be an intense month of testing for me
Imma wait for at least open Beta with both. I'm done playing feature incomplete games
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On October 11 2024 04:12 BeoMulf wrote:
Lol looks like they're going to gate some units behind a premium (paid) battle pass. Hopefully that changes, because that's almost guaranteed to be p2w at some point
are they gated or is that just a way to unlock them quicker?
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Not totally known atm, but the screenshot provided has two units as part of the "Premium Battle Pass" and there's no mention of unlocking them later.
Even then, that leads to ideas like making the BP units strong until they're available for general release. Its fundamentally impossible to do this without it becoming P2W at some point
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United States32927 Posts
On October 11 2024 06:05 BeoMulf wrote:
Not totally known atm, but the screenshot provided has two units as part of the "Premium Battle Pass" and there's no mention of unlocking them later.
Even then, that leads to ideas like making the BP units strong until they're available for general release. Its fundamentally impossible to do this without it becoming P2W at some point
Pretty concerning non-answer from DKim in the Reddit. Would have been easy to shutdown speculation that certain units would be battlepass exclusive if it were the case, but this is very much an evasive answer saying they're leaving all monetization options on the table.
"Oh we're not decided yet on anything real money purchase related, especially during the closed beta phases. Our thought is to test the game and systems without real money being spent properly before moving onto the next step of monetization. Thanks for all your feedback though we will definitely take note for the future!
Also, just to be extra clear, we do have a couple high level goals for monetization:
- We want to be on par or comparable to games of this type.
- We are aiming for units to have a free path to unlock through progression."
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I don't actually think battle pass exclusive units are bad. But it depends on how it's done. Firstly the battle pass has to be quite cheap. Secondly the battle pass unit has to have a free counter. And thirdly the battle pass unit has to become freely available the next month/season/however long the battle pass lasts (or at most a few weeks later than that).
Some mobile games do it that way and I don't mind it. Being f2p puts you at a disadvantage you can overcome by clever strategy, because the new unit gives you an advantage, but not an unstoppable one. And eventually a dedicated f2p player can get the same unit. However, the battle pass gives the developers a steady source of income that they can use to pay salaries and keep developing the game.
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The level 20 thing is the unit I'm guessing? It's clearly labeled "Premium"
I'm not feeling too good about this
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On October 11 2024 06:05 BeoMulf wrote:
Not totally known atm, but the screenshot provided has two units as part of the "Premium Battle Pass" and there's no mention of unlocking them later.
Even then, that leads to ideas like making the BP units strong until they're available for general release. Its fundamentally impossible to do this without it becoming P2W at some point
It's not fundermentally impossible if they have enough units. Look at league, new released champions that need 6000+ RP isn't always the strongest at all.
It's more about what's most sellable.
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On October 11 2024 18:55 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2024 06:05 BeoMulf wrote:
Not totally known atm, but the screenshot provided has two units as part of the "Premium Battle Pass" and there's no mention of unlocking them later.
Even then, that leads to ideas like making the BP units strong until they're available for general release. Its fundamentally impossible to do this without it becoming P2W at some point It's not fundermentally impossible if they have enough units. Look at league, new released champions that need 6000+ RP isn't always the strongest at all. It's more about what's most sellable.
When I say fundamentally impossible, I'm not saying the cash units are always the strongest units in the game. But there will come a point where they are - the devs aren't perfect and even if we ascribe an inhuman level of altruism to them, they will inevitably release a BP unit that is too strong. That eventually casts doubt on the entire system
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On October 12 2024 04:06 BeoMulf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2024 18:55 ETisME wrote:On October 11 2024 06:05 BeoMulf wrote:
Not totally known atm, but the screenshot provided has two units as part of the "Premium Battle Pass" and there's no mention of unlocking them later.
Even then, that leads to ideas like making the BP units strong until they're available for general release. Its fundamentally impossible to do this without it becoming P2W at some point It's not fundermentally impossible if they have enough units. Look at league, new released champions that need 6000+ RP isn't always the strongest at all. It's more about what's most sellable. When I say fundamentally impossible, I'm not saying the cash units are always the strongest units in the game. But there will come a point where they are - the devs aren't perfect and even if we ascribe an inhuman level of altruism to them, they will inevitably release a BP unit that is too strong. That eventually casts doubt on the entire system
I don't see that happening in league of legends. New heroes release in Dota (free heroes for all) are consistently having balance issue as well.
So it seems the doubt will happen one way or another?
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United States32927 Posts
On October 12 2024 06:34 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2024 04:06 BeoMulf wrote:On October 11 2024 18:55 ETisME wrote:On October 11 2024 06:05 BeoMulf wrote:
Not totally known atm, but the screenshot provided has two units as part of the "Premium Battle Pass" and there's no mention of unlocking them later.
Even then, that leads to ideas like making the BP units strong until they're available for general release. Its fundamentally impossible to do this without it becoming P2W at some point It's not fundermentally impossible if they have enough units. Look at league, new released champions that need 6000+ RP isn't always the strongest at all. It's more about what's most sellable. When I say fundamentally impossible, I'm not saying the cash units are always the strongest units in the game. But there will come a point where they are - the devs aren't perfect and even if we ascribe an inhuman level of altruism to them, they will inevitably release a BP unit that is too strong. That eventually casts doubt on the entire system I don't see that happening in league of legends. New heroes release in Dota (free heroes for all) are consistently having balance issue as well. So it seems the doubt will happen one way or another?
So modern LoL isn't really a good environment to compare it to, since LP gains got easier + everyone is an old vet with shittons of currency to buy new champs with on release.
But if you go back to when the game was still bringing in new players and acquiring champions was non-trivial, there was definitely a lot of feel-bad regarding the grind to get the latest 'meta champs,' and it definitely got worse when they released a new champ in an overtuned state.
Now, I've read some statistical analysis that shows a certain champ having a 55%+ win-rate at Diamond+ tier play isn't really relevant to a general player, but the fact is that those stats are out there and deeply color the perception for players. You already feel bad losing to a new champ you haven't bought—seeing a statistic that it's cracked at high-level play is only going to make you feel worse, whether it's 'justified' or not (almost no one can rationally weight ALL the factors that went into a win or loss).
Perception is very much reality in these kinds of games, and you have to manage the emotions of your player base closely lest they decide to call it quits.
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On October 12 2024 07:12 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2024 06:34 ETisME wrote:On October 12 2024 04:06 BeoMulf wrote:On October 11 2024 18:55 ETisME wrote:On October 11 2024 06:05 BeoMulf wrote:
Not totally known atm, but the screenshot provided has two units as part of the "Premium Battle Pass" and there's no mention of unlocking them later.
Even then, that leads to ideas like making the BP units strong until they're available for general release. Its fundamentally impossible to do this without it becoming P2W at some point It's not fundermentally impossible if they have enough units. Look at league, new released champions that need 6000+ RP isn't always the strongest at all. It's more about what's most sellable. When I say fundamentally impossible, I'm not saying the cash units are always the strongest units in the game. But there will come a point where they are - the devs aren't perfect and even if we ascribe an inhuman level of altruism to them, they will inevitably release a BP unit that is too strong. That eventually casts doubt on the entire system I don't see that happening in league of legends. New heroes release in Dota (free heroes for all) are consistently having balance issue as well. So it seems the doubt will happen one way or another? So modern LoL isn't really a good environment to compare it to, since LP gains got easier + everyone is an old vet with shittons of currency to buy new champs with on release. But if you go back to when the game was still bringing in new players and acquiring champions was non-trivial, there was definitely a lot of feel-bad regarding the grind to get the latest 'meta champs,' and it definitely got worse when they released a new champ in an overtuned state. Now, I've read some statistical analysis that shows a certain champ having a 55%+ win-rate at Diamond+ tier play isn't really relevant to a general player, but the fact is that those stats are out there and deeply color the perception for players. You already feel bad losing to a new champ you haven't bought—seeing a statistic that it's cracked at high-level play is only going to make you feel worse, whether it's 'justified' or not (almost no one can rationally weight ALL the factors that went into a win or loss). Perception is very much reality in these kinds of games, and you have to manage the emotions of your player base closely lest they decide to call it quits.
I did play league way back, so I definitely can see where you coming from.
League had plenty of overtuned champions and not necessarily just the new released champions. They had balance issue all over the place.
But that's also because the first week balance is always hard to gauge, a few of them got over nerfed when players were already adapting to it.
I never even gotten a champion at release.
Given Dota has similar issues with a few new heroes they releases, I think it's just a nature of the genre more than anything else.
My biggest concern is how many free units/rotations they would give to us, and how fast it is to grind out a reasonable deck size to make this less of an issue.
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On October 12 2024 06:34 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2024 04:06 BeoMulf wrote:On October 11 2024 18:55 ETisME wrote:On October 11 2024 06:05 BeoMulf wrote:
Not totally known atm, but the screenshot provided has two units as part of the "Premium Battle Pass" and there's no mention of unlocking them later.
Even then, that leads to ideas like making the BP units strong until they're available for general release. Its fundamentally impossible to do this without it becoming P2W at some point It's not fundermentally impossible if they have enough units. Look at league, new released champions that need 6000+ RP isn't always the strongest at all. It's more about what's most sellable. When I say fundamentally impossible, I'm not saying the cash units are always the strongest units in the game. But there will come a point where they are - the devs aren't perfect and even if we ascribe an inhuman level of altruism to them, they will inevitably release a BP unit that is too strong. That eventually casts doubt on the entire system I don't see that happening in league of legends. New heroes release in Dota (free heroes for all) are consistently having balance issue as well. So it seems the doubt will happen one way or another?
You don't have to buy on unlock new heroes in Dota - if they're imba on release you pick them and if they're not you don't. Locking units behind a paywal means that those units will at some point be OP, just the nature of things
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On October 14 2024 05:44 BeoMulf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2024 06:34 ETisME wrote:On October 12 2024 04:06 BeoMulf wrote:On October 11 2024 18:55 ETisME wrote:On October 11 2024 06:05 BeoMulf wrote:
Not totally known atm, but the screenshot provided has two units as part of the "Premium Battle Pass" and there's no mention of unlocking them later.
Even then, that leads to ideas like making the BP units strong until they're available for general release. Its fundamentally impossible to do this without it becoming P2W at some point It's not fundermentally impossible if they have enough units. Look at league, new released champions that need 6000+ RP isn't always the strongest at all. It's more about what's most sellable. When I say fundamentally impossible, I'm not saying the cash units are always the strongest units in the game. But there will come a point where they are - the devs aren't perfect and even if we ascribe an inhuman level of altruism to them, they will inevitably release a BP unit that is too strong. That eventually casts doubt on the entire system I don't see that happening in league of legends. New heroes release in Dota (free heroes for all) are consistently having balance issue as well. So it seems the doubt will happen one way or another? You don't have to buy on unlock new heroes in Dota - if they're imba on release you pick them and if they're not you don't. Locking units behind a paywal means that those units will at some point be OP, just the nature of things
I don't know what we arguing here.
In pub MOBA, new champion/hero always get first picked even when win rate sucks, and then we have counter picks and ban in draft mode.
Unless they don't have enough free to cheap units for the counter picks but you still have strong all rounder picks.
It's just something players complain about and the worst of that happening is when the game still growing new players.
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The difference is LoL / Dota are 5v5.
One hero might have 55% winrate, but there are 9 other sets of variables in every game - 9 other players, their heroes/champions, their experience, etc.
Maybe it's a weaker player with that champion, or maybe his/her teammates (who care mostly about their own performance and fun) won't help enabling this champion's plays.
Your opponent having an imbalanced tool in disposal and focusing on it to win in 1v1 game might feel worse.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://preview.redd.it/dev-update-next-closed-beta-test-details-v0-lndad1c0kytd1.png?width=1920&format=png&auto=webp&s=8401d1103cb49f014caf2c4f9553d609c135374a)
