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United States41636 Posts
Here’s an insightful piece on it written 15 years ago by me.
On August 14 2008 13:13 KwarK wrote:
One interesting thing to think about is whether modern Russia is a fascist state. Fascism has always been tricky to describe. However I'll attempt to describe it as a popular nationalist movement, created by poor economic conditions and a sudden loss of national power and prestige, materialised in a charismatic leader willing to engage in aggressive rhetoric with the wider world while using his popularity to override democratic safeguards and consolidate his position as a Fuhrer and resulting in outward expansion as the rhetoric snowballs and the nationalistic fire that is his support needs more fuel to keep it burning. Centralisation of power, direct central appointment of previously democratic positions, taking over the media and removing constitutional blocks on central power. Putin’s Russia has all of these. It's definitely an interesting line of thought.
If you knew what you were looking at you knew that Crimea, the Donbas, and ultimately all Ukraine would eventually happen.
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Well, both ends of left and right will ultimately lead to authoritarianism and fascism, that's the irony. There's a great quote in
Civ 6, once you've finished reseaching fascism: "The ultimate end of any ideology is totalitarianism" it's by Tom Robbins iirc.
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Northern Ireland23234 Posts
On August 13 2023 01:31 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2023 01:09 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2023 21:27 a_ch wrote:On August 12 2023 20:54 Nezgar wrote:On August 12 2023 19:29 a_ch wrote:On August 12 2023 18:49 Nezgar wrote:
The ideology of Putin in particular and the vast majority of the government in general is clearly fascist, whether you want to acknowledge that or not.
When your leader is quoting fascists in public speeches, flying the corpse of a fascist thinker from another country to Russia to bury it there in a ceremony, align themselves with literal Nazi economists and thinkers that fled to Russia after not being welcome in other parts of the world, and base their entire political view and strategy around a hodgepodge mix of fascism, former Nazis and other batshit crazy philosophy, I think that it is fair to say that your country is run by fascists. If it walks like a fascist, if it talks like a fascist, it is a fucking fascist. -i'm very interested who is that Nazi economist (straight from the 3rd Reich I hope). More seriously, fascism is a very vague term. Some historians claim the political regimes in ancient Greece and Rome were fascist. Should we completely cancel them from the historical books? In my opinion your "I won't take a dump in the same field with a fascist" is itself more abnormal and totalitarian. What I think is an undeniable act of a fascist state - is to burn 50 people alive, and then let the perpetrators off the court. But you perhaps dont even know what i'm talking about, and how it is related to the war - because your media guides very carefully where you need to look, and where not. On August 12 2023 18:49 Nezgar wrote:
While it is true that quoting Wikipedia is poor form and frowned upon in academia, it still provides a lengthy list of sources at the bottom. So you are free to peruse that section and look at the sources at your own leisure. -i've managed to provide a certain piece of article of a decent reputation. It is not of my business to sort through all the internet for a possible contradiction to it. If @maybenexttime is sure that the claim is wrong, he is also better informed, and knows where to find the arguments against it. It is indeed someone straight from the 3rd Reich, though calling him an economist might have missed the mark a little. I am talking about Carl Schmitt, someone that Putin himself is clearly very fond of. Everything you said after that is some of the dumbest shit anyone can write. Condemning a political stance does not mean that you have to purge it from the history books. I know that Russians have a hard time understanding this, but you can look at the past through an objective lens and accept that things in the past have been atrocious and learn from that past to not repeat the same mistakes. And your claim of "Your dislike of totalitarianism is itself totalitarian" is just absurdly stupid. I am baffled that you can write that and not burst out laughing at your own nonsense. It's akin to saying "Your dislike of intolerant people makes you intolerant, so we are pretty much the same. Maybe you are even more intolerant because of it" and it's just... I don't even know, if you cannot see how absurd that stance is, no argument of reason will get past the defenses against logic and reason that you have erected around your worldview. You might just be irredeemably lost in your own bullshit with no interest to engage in honest or critical discourse. -but you make it not discussable yourself. You just label everyone you dislike a fascist, and thats it. I'm not familiar with Schmitt or Iliyin's works. If I've missed some clear fascistic statements or actions of my government - name it; besides that I don't see a point of discussion. And your claim on me needing to reflect on this matter is laughable - because what you wrote here is exactly the main discourse of a lot of Russian "liberals" from Novaya Gazeta. I know this stuff since the beginning of 2000's - they've been mass-producing this shit on American taxpayers money. This is similar to how every German is repeatedly told that they are the villains of Europe - to create a guilty complex for WW2, even in far descendants of the people, who actually took part in it. The difference between us is that I want the one who teaches me morales to behave appropriately, while you take the same shit at the face value. Russia is absolutely and undeniably a fascist state and anyone saying otherwise is not paying attention or is willfully blind. I'm not accusing anyone posting here of this (though it could be true I have no idea) but the people I know personally who have moved from anti covid to anti vax, to fringe minority, to freedom convoy and now to pro Russia (what a strange trip) are very anti communism and very anti Nazi, but also believe that Nazi and communism are close and on opposite ends because they have decide Right means freedom and Left is authoritarianism. So many times when they are arguing that Russia is not Fascist it is because they think fascist is left. If I can convince them that fascism is authoritarianism with right wing ideology then we end that argument. The new problem is they do not dislike it that much because to them people being forced to their way of thinking is not a bad thing, and they all seem to assume they would be the ones benefiting. They also seem to think it means small government and lower corruption, which maybe is true(ish) in compared to the USSR style communism. But is certainly not true in compared to basically any functioning democracy.
Well this is the problem when political discourse became a mass participation sport, rather than the preserve of strange foreign policy wonks and theory nerds.
Absolute reams of incoherent bollocks spread far and wide, taken as gospel and then requiring a titanic effort to disavow people of their insane notions.
It’s not a matter of disagreement, half times I’m arguing against people whose positions held in parallel make no sense as they’re internally contradictory.
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On August 12 2023 23:10 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 22:33 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On August 12 2023 21:39 Magic Powers wrote:On August 12 2023 21:03 Salazarz wrote:On August 12 2023 20:07 Magic Powers wrote:About the healthcare comparison between Russia, Sweden and so forth from a few pages ago, I'd like to remind: if something in this thread sounds even remotely pro-Russian, please be immediately skeptical. Sweden ranks 28th, while Russia ranks 58th. That's a relatively low rating for Sweden compared to its Scandinavian neighbors. Note that Russia ranks much lower, even lower than all the Baltic states or Italy. It's completely unsurprising that examples can be found of bad healthcare in Sweden and of good healthcare in Russia: that's because it's an apples to oranges comparison. Compare a region in Russia that offers higher quality healthcare to a region in Sweden that offers lower quality healthcare. In this way if you select a few anecdotes from individuals living in specific parts of each country, you can easily paint a completely backwards comparison between the countries. There are regions in the UK where healthcare is bad. Some regions are being mismanaged and/or underfunded. But the UK ranks 10th overall. This is because the overall ranking reflects the general state of the country, but not that of specific regions. Discrepancies exist in every country. Thus the conclusion from these anecdotes isn't that Russia is better in regards like healthcare. The conclusion is that an apples to oranges comparison was made for propaganda or other misinformation purposes. Some regions in Russia have good healthcare and in others it's bad. Overall it's certainly NOT better than in the EU. It's clearly worse. Whether that is due to underfunding and mismanaging, or due to Russia's unique geography, or a mix of both, is another question. We can conclude and speculate many things, but the claim that healthcare is better in Russia than in some EU countries is strictly false. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-worldYou can ignore the following example about Ireland, the above suffices for my argument.If someone wanted to paint Russia's healthcare as equal or better to the EU's, they could selectively point to Ireland where it's pretty bad. They have too few doctors and not enough hospital beds. Otherwise they're doing quite well, and somehow Irish people even have the highest life expectancy in the EU despite having the second highest rate of obesity. https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-healthcare-system-compared-to-eu-5778807-Jun2022/Here also a key observation is that Ireland has a unique geography. Not even one city in Ireland has a greater population density than Moscow. Age and distances also affect healthcare demand and supply. So for several reasons there's a lot of variation in the healthcare quality between Irish counties. You may note that Ireland actually spends quite a lot on healthcare and it still receives a low overall rating. Ranking complex institutions such as healthcare on a simple scale is an exercise in futility. There is no one country that is indisputably 'best' at every facet of healthcare, and there is no one country that is 'worst.' For example, according to your link, South Korea is ranked as #1 in the world. Yet, the average number of patients per nurse in South Korea is ~20, which is way below OECD average and leads to a healthcare system where inpatient care can only remain functional thanks to family assistance in all but the most expensive of private hospitals. It's also very uncommon for doctors to develop close relations with their patients so for folks with chronic conditions that require regular medical interventions it's just not a great place to be. Psychiatry and psychology here is also incredibly underdeveloped (pretty much non-existent outside of small private practices, actually). I don't live in Sweden, but I have a close friend who does. According to him, it can take weeks before you can get a simple checkup at a general practitioner. Anything that requires a specialist has to be booked way in advance; including acute care such as tooth pain or something. Now, I'm pretty certain that the overall quality of equipment and level of care (once you do see the doctor you need to see) is better in Sweden than it is even in Moscow or St Petersburg never mind some provincial town in rural Siberia, but I don't think it's entirely impossible that certain aspects of how healthcare operates in Russia might be better than how it is in Sweden. It's also entirely possible that, depending on what your individual situation and priorities are, that healthcare in Russia may be more suitable and appropriate for you than Swedish healthcare is. I'm also pretty sure that insisting 'you should be immediately skeptical of anything remotely pro-Russian' doesn't lead to fair and balanced discussions, but I guess the ship has sailed on that one, considering we've had multiple people claiming all Russians are dumb goblins that deserve to be exterminated and majority of this board being, well, on board with that. The OECD average of annual visits at the doctor is 6.9. In South Korea it's 14.7, that is +113% above the average. So people spend much less time per visit, but they visit a lot more frequently. An average time of 3 to 4 minutes spent at a doctor's office is thus effectively closer to 6 to 8 minutes. Suddenly things don't sound anywhere near as bad anymore. There are many ways data can be fudged with and I'm quite familiar with many of these ways. This is one of those ways. The anecdote of a friend living in Sweden doesn't suffice as evidence that things are worse in Sweden. Experiences vary heavily between regions and even between individual doctors. They also vary between the public sector and the private sector. There are too many confounding variables to consider anecdotes as valid counter arguments to country-wide data. Extremly funny when people who are not from Sweden and knows nothing about how our healthcare system works and it's challenges defend it from someone actually living in Sweden. He didnt say healthcare was better overall he stated that he had heard that it takes longer to recive primary care or non critical emergency care in Sweden compared to Russia. That's the two areas of our system that have large problems (for a variety of reasons). This is a known problem frequently discussed both in society and in the news. Many other countries have better access to primary care than Sweden if you don't compare cost of care, it's likely that Russia could be one of those. This is what ZeroByte13 said: "3. I heard many stories from colleagues that it's hard to get to doctor without waiting for months unless you feel really bad. Swedish healthcare seems to be overloaded and understaffed now. My colleagues say they usually don't even bother trying to get to doctor - it will take forever and won't help much. In Russia I'd be able to get to most doctors the same day or maybe next one, and it's not that expensive for middle-class. But this is private healthcare sector which almost doesn't exist in Sweden as far as I know." This claim is not about special treatment or emergency care, it's about unspecified general care including primary care (presumably mostly that, judging by the "unless you feel really bad" quote). It's basically about visits to general practitioners, and perhaps also referrals to specialists. The other claim is that his colleagues "usually" don't bother going to the doctor because of wait times. For these reasons I'm disputing his claims. Furthermore - and I haven't addressed that part yet - ZB13 claims that there is no private healthcare sector in Sweden. This is false, as private healthcare is steadily growing and a strong competitor to the public sector.
I just explained what that statement functionally means in Sweden.
https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/GMKOr6/regiontoppar-varnar-for-vardkris-vadjar-till-regeringen-om-stod
https://www.nkp.se/2022/12/16/darfor-kommer-vardkrisen-2-0-bli-annu-varre-c6820/
https://lakartidningen.se/opinion/signerat/2023/05/momentum-for-svensk-primarvard/
https://www.di.se/ledare/ingen-mar-bra-av-en-krisande-primarvard/
https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/trots-insatser-for-10-miljarder-vantetiderna-i-varden-allt-langre
https://www.dagensmedicin.se/vardens-styrning/patientsakerhet/fortroendet-for-varden-har-minskat/
Quick google of reliable sources that there is a problem with Swedish healthcare and primary care in particular.
https://www.svensktnaringsliv.se/sakomraden/infrastruktur/infrastrukturen-blunda-inte-for-forfallet_1196894.html
https://www.dn.se/ekonomi/ministern-kallar-tagbranschen-till-mote/
https://www.dn.se/ekonomi/ministern-om-vagnat-och-jarnvag-rekordstor-underhallskuld/
https://www.dagensarena.se/innehall/fyra-av-tio-svenskar-valjer-bort-taget-pa-grund-av-forseningar/
Quick google on railway problems.
https://marcusoscarsson.se/sverige-stora-problem-for-postnord/
https://www.dn.se/sverige/postnords-brevfiasko-miljontals-sena-brev/
https://www.tv4.se/artikel/iYUZg93hbff11QmSWFvNv/utskaellda-brevbaeraren-erkaenner-vi-foertjaenar-skit-vi-hinner-inte-med
https://sn.se/bli-prenumerant/artikel/jpve187j
Quick google on problems with deliveries and mail.
Do you also want to have a discussion on how private care is funded and chosen in Sweden and how that effects wait times?
His claims are 1) hearsay, 2) likely an apples to oranges comparison, and 3) false. I think I've shown that ZB13's claims distort reality.
a_ch has also stated before that he thinks Russia has worse healthcare.
If there is a problem with wait times in Sweden, then we at least know about them. My guess is that, if there are no reports of undue wait times in Russia, it's because we don't hear about them, and not because they aren't prevalent. Otherwise the overall healthcare ranking of the countries wouldn't make much sense.
Anything else or can we move on?
No it's because if you have a cold (or other trivial health problem) and money in Russia (and many other countries) and you call a doctor you get an appointment.
If you do that in Sweden you don't get an appointment due to triage. Maybe if you call back a couple of times you eventually get an appointment. If it's slightly more serious you get an appointment in a few weeks etc.
Of course it's not like this everywhere but in general it's a problem for the entire country.
Doesn't mean that the care is better (maybe the friendly neighbourhood doctor in Russia sucks and can't diagnose cancer, maybe there isn't advanced imaging services to send a referral to, maybe you can't get state of the art medication that is superior etc. etc.)
But he was asked to compare and he did, and his comparisons were fairly correct and YOU were a bitch about it because it doesn't fit your worldview.
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Zurich15306 Posts
Wtf is going on here.
Back on topic please: Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Ban hammer at the ready.
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On August 13 2023 00:40 0x64 wrote:
Russian dudes, what are your opinion on prigozhin if he march to Moscow?
For or against disposing of Putin?
-if you mean a possible repeat of the action, I'm most certain that it won't happen. If it is about what happened in June 24th, than I'm still struggling to combine all the pieces together.
On August 13 2023 00:41 Salazarz wrote:
It's silly to try and reduce these kinds of nuances to a single list. Russia is a pretty crappy place to live in, everyone knows that already. There's no need to try and prove so hard that it's literally the worst at everything, every time.
Don't know why you think so. We have definetely the best food in the world, very nice and friendly people, and lots of beautiful places.
Right now I'm sitting in my summer cottage on a hill surrounded by a forest, with a view on the strategic bomber military airbase. Occasionally beautiful Tu-160 supersonic nuclear-capable bombers fly, like, 200 meters over my head, and if the main fun begins, I'll be among the first 1000 people who'll know about the upcoming world end from the very start. Isn't that nice?)
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On August 13 2023 03:32 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2023 00:40 0x64 wrote:
Russian dudes, what are your opinion on prigozhin if he march to Moscow?
For or against disposing of Putin? -if you mean a possible repeat of the action, I'm most certain that it won't happen. If it is about what happened in June 24th, than I'm still struggling to combine all the pieces together. Show nested quote +On August 13 2023 00:41 Salazarz wrote:
It's silly to try and reduce these kinds of nuances to a single list. Russia is a pretty crappy place to live in, everyone knows that already. There's no need to try and prove so hard that it's literally the worst at everything, every time. Don't know why you think so. We have definetely the best food in the world, very nice and friendly people, and lots of beautiful places. Right now I'm sitting in my summer cottage on a hill surrounded by a forest, with a view on the strategic bomber military airbase. Occasionally Tu-160 supersonic nuclear-capable bombers fly, like, 200 meters over my head, and if the main fun begins, I'll be among the first 1000 people who'll know about the upcoming world end from the very start. Isn't that nice?)
I means more generally, in theory... Putting the pieces together on what happen to begin with is a fine answer.
I am interested if people have opinions on the matter, for once we can discuss something that does not requires facts  .
And this is internal to Russia, so it is really hard to understand. From our perspective, it was broadcasted in the news as a potentially on-going coup.
I can only imagine it is impossible to chose between Putin and Prigozhin, it seemed Prigozhin was not opposed and why would had he been, he was pretty much put forward as a hero for months.
So would you just wait and see what happens, the rest is business as usual, or do you fear Prigozhin would bring chaos, had he succeeded? (And what would even success mean in that case??)
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On August 13 2023 03:45 0x64 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2023 03:32 a_ch wrote:On August 13 2023 00:40 0x64 wrote:
Russian dudes, what are your opinion on prigozhin if he march to Moscow?
For or against disposing of Putin? -if you mean a possible repeat of the action, I'm most certain that it won't happen. If it is about what happened in June 24th, than I'm still struggling to combine all the pieces together. On August 13 2023 00:41 Salazarz wrote:
It's silly to try and reduce these kinds of nuances to a single list. Russia is a pretty crappy place to live in, everyone knows that already. There's no need to try and prove so hard that it's literally the worst at everything, every time. Don't know why you think so. We have definetely the best food in the world, very nice and friendly people, and lots of beautiful places. Right now I'm sitting in my summer cottage on a hill surrounded by a forest, with a view on the strategic bomber military airbase. Occasionally Tu-160 supersonic nuclear-capable bombers fly, like, 200 meters over my head, and if the main fun begins, I'll be among the first 1000 people who'll know about the upcoming world end from the very start. Isn't that nice?) I means more generally, in theory... Putting the pieces together on what happen to begin with is a fine answer. I am interested if people have opinions on the matter, for once we can discuss something that does not requires facts . And this is internal to Russia, so it is really hard to understand. From our perspective, it was broadcasted in the news as a potentially on-going coup.
I suppose I could relay some info on that if you want to take it as a believe it or not. However judging by latest ban of captainwaffles TL moderation will ban me for it. But I guess that's nothing.
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On August 13 2023 03:53 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2023 03:45 0x64 wrote:On August 13 2023 03:32 a_ch wrote:On August 13 2023 00:40 0x64 wrote:
Russian dudes, what are your opinion on prigozhin if he march to Moscow?
For or against disposing of Putin? -if you mean a possible repeat of the action, I'm most certain that it won't happen. If it is about what happened in June 24th, than I'm still struggling to combine all the pieces together. On August 13 2023 00:41 Salazarz wrote:
It's silly to try and reduce these kinds of nuances to a single list. Russia is a pretty crappy place to live in, everyone knows that already. There's no need to try and prove so hard that it's literally the worst at everything, every time. Don't know why you think so. We have definetely the best food in the world, very nice and friendly people, and lots of beautiful places. Right now I'm sitting in my summer cottage on a hill surrounded by a forest, with a view on the strategic bomber military airbase. Occasionally Tu-160 supersonic nuclear-capable bombers fly, like, 200 meters over my head, and if the main fun begins, I'll be among the first 1000 people who'll know about the upcoming world end from the very start. Isn't that nice?) I means more generally, in theory... Putting the pieces together on what happen to begin with is a fine answer. I am interested if people have opinions on the matter, for once we can discuss something that does not requires facts . And this is internal to Russia, so it is really hard to understand. From our perspective, it was broadcasted in the news as a potentially on-going coup. I suppose I could relay some info on that if you want to take it as a believe it or not. However judging by latest ban of captainwaffles TL moderation will ban me for it. But I guess that's nothing.
I am looking for first hand opinion of Russian (may live outside russia), not some articles. Thanks. The value of the forum is that we get to interact with different people thinking differently.
If I want people interacting with news links, I can relog on Facebook but it's been a while...
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On August 13 2023 04:05 0x64 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2023 03:53 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 13 2023 03:45 0x64 wrote:On August 13 2023 03:32 a_ch wrote:On August 13 2023 00:40 0x64 wrote:
Russian dudes, what are your opinion on prigozhin if he march to Moscow?
For or against disposing of Putin? -if you mean a possible repeat of the action, I'm most certain that it won't happen. If it is about what happened in June 24th, than I'm still struggling to combine all the pieces together. On August 13 2023 00:41 Salazarz wrote:
It's silly to try and reduce these kinds of nuances to a single list. Russia is a pretty crappy place to live in, everyone knows that already. There's no need to try and prove so hard that it's literally the worst at everything, every time. Don't know why you think so. We have definetely the best food in the world, very nice and friendly people, and lots of beautiful places. Right now I'm sitting in my summer cottage on a hill surrounded by a forest, with a view on the strategic bomber military airbase. Occasionally Tu-160 supersonic nuclear-capable bombers fly, like, 200 meters over my head, and if the main fun begins, I'll be among the first 1000 people who'll know about the upcoming world end from the very start. Isn't that nice?) I means more generally, in theory... Putting the pieces together on what happen to begin with is a fine answer. I am interested if people have opinions on the matter, for once we can discuss something that does not requires facts . And this is internal to Russia, so it is really hard to understand. From our perspective, it was broadcasted in the news as a potentially on-going coup. I suppose I could relay some info on that if you want to take it as a believe it or not. However judging by latest ban of captainwaffles TL moderation will ban me for it. But I guess that's nothing. I am looking for first hand opinion of Russian (may live outside russia), not some articles. Thanks. The value of the forum is that we get to interact with different people thinking differently. If I want people interacting with news links, I can relog on Facebook but it's been a while...
That's cool.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 12 2023 21:03 Salazarz wrote:
I'm also pretty sure that insisting 'you should be immediately skeptical of anything remotely pro-Russian' doesn't lead to fair and balanced discussions, but I guess the ship has sailed on that one, considering we've had multiple people claiming all Russians are dumb goblins that deserve to be exterminated and majority of this board being, well, on board with that.
the hell you talking about
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Easy for you to say living 1000km away from where these retaliations will take place. You wont be the one being mobilized and dieing for the millionare politicians cooking up these publicity stunts.
Zelensky fires military recruitment center chiefs after corruption probe
Zelensky announced the blanket dismissal after a meeting of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council. He cited instances of “illicit enrichment,” laundering “illegally obtained funds” and the “illegal transportation of persons liable for military service across the border” to Ukraine’s western neighbors to avoid the draft.
“Some took cash, some took cryptocurrency — that’s the only difference,” Zelensky said in a statement published on the official presidential website. “The cynicism is the same everywhere.” Zelensky did not specify the total number of regional recruitment heads.
Ukraine instituted a ban on men from the ages of 18-60 from leaving the country, with the exception of a few categories, at the beginning of the war.
Ukrainian forces are struggling to advance in their two-month-old counteroffensive against Russia, and there are growing signs of fatigue among Ukrainians after a year and half of grinding conflict.
Cant have any Ukranian male slip though now can we. Even the rich ones of military age that were bribing officials since day one are having second thoughts. At least we will be seeing way more potential Abrams tank drivers hitting recruitment officers in the head with bricks or being pulled from hidden compartments inside vehicles at the border. And we've been getting quite a few videos each day for a while now.
Maybe the more bloodthirsty warmonger citizens of EU countries can step in and take the place of those Ukrainians that dont want to die for Zelensky. After all the war must go to the very end, to the last Ukraini- I mean Russian!
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On August 13 2023 04:44 zeo wrote:Easy for you to say living 1000km away from where these retaliations will take place. You wont be the one being mobilized and dieing for the millionare politicians cooking up these publicity stunts. Zelensky fires military recruitment center chiefs after corruption probeShow nested quote +Zelensky announced the blanket dismissal after a meeting of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council. He cited instances of “illicit enrichment,” laundering “illegally obtained funds” and the “illegal transportation of persons liable for military service across the border” to Ukraine’s western neighbors to avoid the draft.
“Some took cash, some took cryptocurrency — that’s the only difference,” Zelensky said in a statement published on the official presidential website. “The cynicism is the same everywhere.” Zelensky did not specify the total number of regional recruitment heads.
Ukraine instituted a ban on men from the ages of 18-60 from leaving the country, with the exception of a few categories, at the beginning of the war.
Ukrainian forces are struggling to advance in their two-month-old counteroffensive against Russia, and there are growing signs of fatigue among Ukrainians after a year and half of grinding conflict. Cant have any Ukranian male slip though now can we. Even the rich ones of military age that were bribing officials since day one are having second thoughts. At least we will be seeing way more potential Abrams tank drivers hitting recruitment officers in the head with bricks or being pulled from hidden compartments inside vehicles at the border. And we've been getting quite a few videos each day for a while now. Maybe the more bloodthirsty warmonger citizens of EU countries can step in and take the place of those Ukrainians that dont want to die for Zelensky. After all the war must go to the very end, to the last Ukraini- I mean Russian!
I would 100% do the same thing if Russia invaded here, no chance I would stick around if I could get out. Or if my country invaded, just as many Russians left Russia. I don't have a strong feeling of connection to my country or society in general. I am of the defeatist camp that makes invasions very easy. The cost of defending is too high to do it. At least against most modern opponents. If it was the classical armies where slaves and brides are part of the takings then things get much more iffy.
So the actions Russia takes actually puts them closer to the classical armies and drives resistance in many demographics.
I still think it is good that there are Ukrainians that have higher morals than me. Stopping Russia from moving on here afterwards. I am happy that a majority are willing to take the fight that I would not be.
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On August 13 2023 04:44 zeo wrote:Easy for you to say living 1000km away from where these retaliations will take place. You wont be the one being mobilized and dieing for the millionare politicians cooking up these publicity stunts. Zelensky fires military recruitment center chiefs after corruption probeShow nested quote +Zelensky announced the blanket dismissal after a meeting of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council. He cited instances of “illicit enrichment,” laundering “illegally obtained funds” and the “illegal transportation of persons liable for military service across the border” to Ukraine’s western neighbors to avoid the draft.
“Some took cash, some took cryptocurrency — that’s the only difference,” Zelensky said in a statement published on the official presidential website. “The cynicism is the same everywhere.” Zelensky did not specify the total number of regional recruitment heads.
Ukraine instituted a ban on men from the ages of 18-60 from leaving the country, with the exception of a few categories, at the beginning of the war.
Ukrainian forces are struggling to advance in their two-month-old counteroffensive against Russia, and there are growing signs of fatigue among Ukrainians after a year and half of grinding conflict. Cant have any Ukranian male slip though now can we. Even the rich ones of military age that were bribing officials since day one are having second thoughts. At least we will be seeing way more potential Abrams tank drivers hitting recruitment officers in the head with bricks or being pulled from hidden compartments inside vehicles at the border. And we've been getting quite a few videos each day for a while now. Maybe the more bloodthirsty warmonger citizens of EU countries can step in and take the place of those Ukrainians that dont want to die for Zelensky. After all the war must go to the very end, to the last Ukraini- I mean Russian!
What in the world are you on about? Attacking the Crimea bridge isn't a political stunt, it's a valid military target as it greatly constrains logistics. The political stunts in this conflict is Putin invading another country in hopes of the rest of the world somehow going "eh, sure, that's fine", and the country in question not defending themselves. And the now political stunt to pretend that Russia still has the means to for a "retribution" that they've already been committing on the daily
But you know what? Yes, it IS easy for me to sit 1000km away and armchair argue this. I am in the Norwegian military. I have both a duty and a will to defend my country in the case of an invasion, which ironically right now the biggest thread are from sabotage, terrorism, and green little men up coming from the Russian border in the north. I will gladly give up my life to defend against genocide. On top of that, it's just basic human empathic abilities to put yourself in the seat of the average Ukrainian right now, which automatically also gives everyone else the right to talk about this. 1000km away or not.
So don't you dare sit there on your high horse and pretend you are the only one who has any right to mean anything about this conflict.
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On August 13 2023 04:51 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2023 04:44 zeo wrote:Easy for you to say living 1000km away from where these retaliations will take place. You wont be the one being mobilized and dieing for the millionare politicians cooking up these publicity stunts. Zelensky fires military recruitment center chiefs after corruption probeZelensky announced the blanket dismissal after a meeting of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council. He cited instances of “illicit enrichment,” laundering “illegally obtained funds” and the “illegal transportation of persons liable for military service across the border” to Ukraine’s western neighbors to avoid the draft.
“Some took cash, some took cryptocurrency — that’s the only difference,” Zelensky said in a statement published on the official presidential website. “The cynicism is the same everywhere.” Zelensky did not specify the total number of regional recruitment heads.
Ukraine instituted a ban on men from the ages of 18-60 from leaving the country, with the exception of a few categories, at the beginning of the war.
Ukrainian forces are struggling to advance in their two-month-old counteroffensive against Russia, and there are growing signs of fatigue among Ukrainians after a year and half of grinding conflict. Cant have any Ukranian male slip though now can we. Even the rich ones of military age that were bribing officials since day one are having second thoughts. At least we will be seeing way more potential Abrams tank drivers hitting recruitment officers in the head with bricks or being pulled from hidden compartments inside vehicles at the border. And we've been getting quite a few videos each day for a while now. Maybe the more bloodthirsty warmonger citizens of EU countries can step in and take the place of those Ukrainians that dont want to die for Zelensky. After all the war must go to the very end, to the last Ukraini- I mean Russian! I would 100% do the same thing if Russia invaded here, no chance I would stick around if I could get out. Or if my country invaded, just as many Russians left Russia. I don't have a strong feeling of connection to my country or society in general. I am of the defeatist camp that makes invasions very easy. The cost of defending is too high to do it. At least against most modern opponents. If it was the classical armies where slaves and brides are part of the takings then things get much more iffy. So the actions Russia takes actually puts them closer to the classical armies and drives resistance in many demographics. I still think it is good that there are Ukrainians that have higher morals than me. Stopping Russia from moving on here afterwards. I am happy that a majority are willing to take the fight that I would not be.
What would you do if your country closed the borders and sent armed men to press gang you into sitting in a trench somewhere waiting to get shelled by Russians? You dont go to jail if you dont want to go, you get the shit kicked out of you and you go anyway? How would that make you feel about your government?
Ukrainians are paying between 4.000 -10.000 dollars US to get exemptions. Ive read that they estimated that over 2.5 billion dollars was extorted from an already impoverished population. You sell your home, you sell your land, you sell anything you can get your hands on to save your life. Is that fucking fair? Is that the way a beacon of democracy works? I dont think so.
@Excludos sure mate you would be the first guy in the trenches 😂 something tells me you would reevaluate what the word genocide means and would look for a peaceful solution where your standard of living doesnt go from 'your biggest problem being which of the 13 different kinds of soy coffee you will drink today' to 'a minor problem being having nothing to eat'
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Northern Ireland23234 Posts
On August 13 2023 05:00 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2023 04:51 Yurie wrote:On August 13 2023 04:44 zeo wrote:Easy for you to say living 1000km away from where these retaliations will take place. You wont be the one being mobilized and dieing for the millionare politicians cooking up these publicity stunts. Zelensky fires military recruitment center chiefs after corruption probeZelensky announced the blanket dismissal after a meeting of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council. He cited instances of “illicit enrichment,” laundering “illegally obtained funds” and the “illegal transportation of persons liable for military service across the border” to Ukraine’s western neighbors to avoid the draft.
“Some took cash, some took cryptocurrency — that’s the only difference,” Zelensky said in a statement published on the official presidential website. “The cynicism is the same everywhere.” Zelensky did not specify the total number of regional recruitment heads.
Ukraine instituted a ban on men from the ages of 18-60 from leaving the country, with the exception of a few categories, at the beginning of the war.
Ukrainian forces are struggling to advance in their two-month-old counteroffensive against Russia, and there are growing signs of fatigue among Ukrainians after a year and half of grinding conflict. Cant have any Ukranian male slip though now can we. Even the rich ones of military age that were bribing officials since day one are having second thoughts. At least we will be seeing way more potential Abrams tank drivers hitting recruitment officers in the head with bricks or being pulled from hidden compartments inside vehicles at the border. And we've been getting quite a few videos each day for a while now. Maybe the more bloodthirsty warmonger citizens of EU countries can step in and take the place of those Ukrainians that dont want to die for Zelensky. After all the war must go to the very end, to the last Ukraini- I mean Russian! I would 100% do the same thing if Russia invaded here, no chance I would stick around if I could get out. Or if my country invaded, just as many Russians left Russia. I don't have a strong feeling of connection to my country or society in general. I am of the defeatist camp that makes invasions very easy. The cost of defending is too high to do it. At least against most modern opponents. If it was the classical armies where slaves and brides are part of the takings then things get much more iffy. So the actions Russia takes actually puts them closer to the classical armies and drives resistance in many demographics. I still think it is good that there are Ukrainians that have higher morals than me. Stopping Russia from moving on here afterwards. I am happy that a majority are willing to take the fight that I would not be. What would you do if your country closed the borders and sent armed men to press gang you into sitting in a trench somewhere waiting to get shelled by Russians? You dont go to jail if you dont want to go, you get the shit kicked out of you and you go anyway
Were Serbs free to come and go as they pleased in the Yugoslavian civil war(s)? A genuine question as I do not know.
War is an ugly thing, ugly things may need to be done. Perhaps Russia shouldn’t have invaded Ukraine?
But yes it is very ivory tower over here, realistically though it’s because nobody is actually going to invade my country. It’s just not going to happen.
If it did, I’d fight. Probably be a useless soldier, probably die. But if some foreign power somehow turned up on my doorstep, yeah. And on the nationalism scale I’m maybe a 2/10 at tops
Peacekeeping operations, we have enough professional soldiers, they can do it.
Folly foreign excursions like Iraq and Afghanistan we shouldn’t have done to begin with. While I don’t doubt our (general) professionalism in such theatres we shouldn’t fucking be there to begin with.
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On August 13 2023 05:00 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2023 04:51 Yurie wrote:On August 13 2023 04:44 zeo wrote:Easy for you to say living 1000km away from where these retaliations will take place. You wont be the one being mobilized and dieing for the millionare politicians cooking up these publicity stunts. Zelensky fires military recruitment center chiefs after corruption probeZelensky announced the blanket dismissal after a meeting of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council. He cited instances of “illicit enrichment,” laundering “illegally obtained funds” and the “illegal transportation of persons liable for military service across the border” to Ukraine’s western neighbors to avoid the draft.
“Some took cash, some took cryptocurrency — that’s the only difference,” Zelensky said in a statement published on the official presidential website. “The cynicism is the same everywhere.” Zelensky did not specify the total number of regional recruitment heads.
Ukraine instituted a ban on men from the ages of 18-60 from leaving the country, with the exception of a few categories, at the beginning of the war.
Ukrainian forces are struggling to advance in their two-month-old counteroffensive against Russia, and there are growing signs of fatigue among Ukrainians after a year and half of grinding conflict. Cant have any Ukranian male slip though now can we. Even the rich ones of military age that were bribing officials since day one are having second thoughts. At least we will be seeing way more potential Abrams tank drivers hitting recruitment officers in the head with bricks or being pulled from hidden compartments inside vehicles at the border. And we've been getting quite a few videos each day for a while now. Maybe the more bloodthirsty warmonger citizens of EU countries can step in and take the place of those Ukrainians that dont want to die for Zelensky. After all the war must go to the very end, to the last Ukraini- I mean Russian! I would 100% do the same thing if Russia invaded here, no chance I would stick around if I could get out. Or if my country invaded, just as many Russians left Russia. I don't have a strong feeling of connection to my country or society in general. I am of the defeatist camp that makes invasions very easy. The cost of defending is too high to do it. At least against most modern opponents. If it was the classical armies where slaves and brides are part of the takings then things get much more iffy. So the actions Russia takes actually puts them closer to the classical armies and drives resistance in many demographics. I still think it is good that there are Ukrainians that have higher morals than me. Stopping Russia from moving on here afterwards. I am happy that a majority are willing to take the fight that I would not be. What would you do if your country closed the borders and sent armed men to press gang you into sitting in a trench somewhere waiting to get shelled by Russians? You dont go to jail if you dont want to go, you get the shit kicked out of you and you go anyway? How would that make you feel about your government? Ukrainians are paying between 4.000 -10.000 dollars US to get exemptions. Ive read that they estimated that over 2.5 billion dollars was extorted from an already impoverished population. You sell your home, you sell your land, you sell anything you can get your hands on to save your life. Is that fucking fair? Is that the way a beacon of democracy works? I dont think so. @Excludos sure mate you would be the first guy in the trenches 😂 something tells me you would reevaluate what the word genocide means and would look for a peaceful solution where your standard of living doesnt go from 'your biggest problem being which of the 13 different kinds of soy coffee you will drink today' to 'a minor problem being having nothing to eat'
If I was in the military and wouldn't be "the first in the trenches", I'd have the wrong fucking job my man. There's been a lot of people like me before me, and there will be a lot more like me after. Many of them are in Ukraine right now, who lived lives just like ours before the war broke out, and then found themselves having to fight for their country. Don't project your own cowardice onto others. A lot of people are willing to fight for what they believe in. I have had the honor of meeting a few Ukrainian soldiers weeks before being sent to the front lines. I can absolutely promise you the motivation is high
More to the point tho, and way more importantly, all of what you're mentioning is because of Russia. They invaded Ukraine. Ukraine didn't pull down their pants and teased them to come over. Russia invaded a free and democratic country, and you're sitting here whining about the hardships they're facing because of it. The hypocrisy on display is astounding. I will not be crying myself to sleep tonight thinking about Russians having to sleep in the bed of their own making.
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