|
I'm gonna be posting PvZ results every 1-2 big tournaments when I get time to help put some light on the actual situation since the entirety of SC2 community seems to be living in a bubble when it comes to Protoss performance vs Zerg in SC2.
Across both tournaments so far:
Zerg 9 series won | Protoss 3 series won (series won was Showtime vs Elazer 2-1, and herO vs Lambo 2-1,Trap 3-2 Ragnarok, all three zergs are the weakest players from their respective race important to point that out.)
Zerg won 28 maps | Protoss won 12 maps
Post will be edited when Shopify completes.
Previous tournaments played since the past 2 years have similar looking graphs but I do not have the time to go back and write up every single match played over the current patch. Also it is actually more interesting to record data from this point because now the patch has been out for so long the meta is starting to stabilize and people are figuring out the limits of opponent race and you start to see that in tournament results.
Of course 2 tournaments is nothing to go by yet but maybe in a year or two you'll start to see the real picture of Protoss performance in big tournaments.
To summarize Protoss not doing well so far lets hope the scores are more even the next two tournaments when I make my next post, fingers crossed.
|
NeXT 2021 S2.
Protoss won 5 series, Zerg won 0 series.
Clearly just a bad tournament so you left that out of your "putting light on the actual situation" dataset.
|
On December 05 2021 19:09 Ronski wrote: NeXT 2021 S2.
Protoss won 5 series, Zerg won 0 series.
Clearly just a bad tournament so you left that out of your "putting light on the actual situation" dataset.
Yeah true, lets see how that evens out when the tournament is complete shall we
|
On December 05 2021 19:09 Ronski wrote: NeXT 2021 S2.
Protoss won 5 series, Zerg won 0 series.
Clearly just a bad tournament so you left that out of your "putting light on the actual situation" dataset. lmao
|
Czech Republic12116 Posts
Protoss not doing well. The only nonzerg in semis of TSL8 is Protoss xD Loving this.
While you're at it do you know the magical Statistics tab on the tournament page? TeamLiquid StarLeague/8/Statistics
|
I think that the reason people are complaining about Protoss feeling overpowered is that in the lower league's most of the time it feels like there is nothing that can be done against them. Tournament results depends on a lot more then just race, it's mind games, mechanics and players. E.g: Everyone said for a long while that zerg is overpowered, and looking at tournament results that would be right. But if you look at how many repeat champions there are, that would probably paint a completely different picture.
|
Oh no Trap the carry toss of recent times reached the SF with a good bracket. Look some of these threads are getting ridicoulus yeah, but you're no better.
|
On December 06 2021 01:12 darklycid wrote:Oh no Trap the carry toss of recent times reached the SF with a good bracket. Look some of these threads are getting ridicoulus yeah, but you're no better.
He's trolling
But yeah this thread doesn't seem to have much worth anyway
|
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On December 06 2021 03:02 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2021 01:12 darklycid wrote:Oh no Trap the carry toss of recent times reached the SF with a good bracket. Look some of these threads are getting ridicoulus yeah, but you're no better. He's trolling But yeah this thread doesn't seem to have much worth anyway I'm not trolling, as I said on multiple occassions - if anything, both Protoss and Terran are at terrible stage. Numberwise Protoss is in better shape than Terran (while Terrans win things, they have lower representation in the finals).
But if we really need a concentrator for Aligulac and Liquipedia Statistic tab, so be it But then we need all the numbers and not just the ones people like.
E.g. Next doesn't count, because it's not finished while TSL8 counts, while it's obviously already finished.
|
On December 06 2021 05:30 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2021 03:02 Nebuchad wrote:On December 06 2021 01:12 darklycid wrote:Oh no Trap the carry toss of recent times reached the SF with a good bracket. Look some of these threads are getting ridicoulus yeah, but you're no better. He's trolling But yeah this thread doesn't seem to have much worth anyway I'm not trolling, as I said on multiple occassions - if anything, both Protoss and Terran are at terrible stage. Numberwise Protoss is in better shape than Terran (while Terrans win things, they have lower representation in the finals). But if we really need a concentrator for Aligulac and Liquipedia Statistic tab, so be it But then we need all the numbers and not just the ones people like. E.g. Next doesn't count, because it's not finished while TSL8 counts, while it's obviously already finished. I dont think you can say numbers wise protoss is in a better shape, quite a few of the tournaments terran had pretty good reprserntation up until the ro4. The recent wave of discussion also became more prevalent again with protoss heavily underperforming the last few event with none in ro4 and in one even none in ro8.
|
series won was Showtime vs Elazer 2-1, and herO vs Lambo 2-1,Trap 3-2 Ragnarok, all three zergs are the weakest players from their respective race important to point that out
Oh wow, did not know there were three weakest Zergs, and I also did not know that beating Zest 2-0 and Reynor 2-0 leaves you as the weakest Zerg. Oh what's this? There were only two PvZ series played in SuperTournament? Gee I wonder! Maybe the balance is really messed up, especially because both Protoss and Zerg won a series! Perhaps we can come back to this subject in a year or two, and say we don't have the time to dig through the past two years' worth of tournaments and just leave it at Protoss bad!
Not to mention as the others have said, NeXT, 5 Protoss, 0 Zerg wins
|
I've said it on the other, "Protoss is bad" thread, but I do think that it's a reasonable opinion that Protoss is the weakest race per design at the top level of play, but anything less then the top level they are balanced, if not on the strong side.
Kind of the inverse for Terran, weakest in the lower leagues but arguably the most OP race when played the best at the highest level.
Still not sure why slight Lurker nerfs are not on the table, a reduction in HP would allow Immortals and High Templars to deal with them easier. This would help with the count down that Protoss ground armies seem to be on once the Lurker Den get's built, and it shouldn't affect ZvT much since Terrans primary response to Lurkers will kill them just as quickly either way.
Then I snap back to reality and remember that the SC2 department of SC2's new duties have been to clean the bathrooms and go make lunch runs for the WoW team instead of maintaining and improving this game.
|
yes mate but people look at that they don't really see how shit protoss is doing vs Zerg in general, when you put the numbers next to each other you get it in perspective and you see how bad it really is
|
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On December 06 2021 06:36 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2021 05:30 deacon.frost wrote:On December 06 2021 03:02 Nebuchad wrote:On December 06 2021 01:12 darklycid wrote:Oh no Trap the carry toss of recent times reached the SF with a good bracket. Look some of these threads are getting ridicoulus yeah, but you're no better. He's trolling But yeah this thread doesn't seem to have much worth anyway I'm not trolling, as I said on multiple occassions - if anything, both Protoss and Terran are at terrible stage. Numberwise Protoss is in better shape than Terran (while Terrans win things, they have lower representation in the finals). But if we really need a concentrator for Aligulac and Liquipedia Statistic tab, so be it But then we need all the numbers and not just the ones people like. E.g. Next doesn't count, because it's not finished while TSL8 counts, while it's obviously already finished. I dont think you can say numbers wise protoss is in a better shape, quite a few of the tournaments terran had pretty good reprserntation up until the ro4. The recent wave of discussion also became more prevalent again with protoss heavily underperforming the last few event with none in ro4 and in one even none in ro8. Again, I made numbers for all the premier tournaments since the Rogue PatchZerg titles and Protoss has better numbers than Terran, especially after 2021. The difference is that Terran wins more finals. Protoss is kinda the race of Kongs.
So yes, Terran is numberwise the worst represented race in the finals, especially if you take longer time into the equation, becase Zest, Stats, Trap and Zoun were able to make the finals. (also NA Protoss in NA WCS ) The issue here is that while Cure was good, he wasn't good at making the finals or winning them until now, Clem is limitted mostly to the WCS EU and Maru, TY and Inno couldn't do that on their own. Protoss lost Stats and Terran lost TY and Inno.
Numberwise Protoss is in a better shape than Terran, title-wise big(kinda-ish) nope. If you wanna see Protoss players to lift up the trophey you're out of luck. If you wanna see them in finals (or god forbid RO4/8) they're mostly fine if you're fine with seeing the same players over and over. The diversity is only on the Zerg side.
Edit> I found the post with the numbers: Between Rogues Blizzcon and november 2020(that's when I stopped updating my sheet according to windows) Zerg won 32 premiers, Protoss 8, Terran 13. Protoss is the weakest, right? Well, let's check 2nd places, Zerg 19, Terran 11, Protoss 23.
So, in that time slot, Zerg has 51 representatives in the finals, Terran 24, Protoss 31.
Let's check personal statistics, if you remove the most winning Zerg of that phase(Serral, 13 titles), Zerg still has the most titles - 19 and with 38 they still have the biggest representation in the finals. While If you remove Maru(7) suddenly you get 6 Terran titles(oh noez) and 18 Terrans in the finals.
Compare that to Protoss from those years who don't have anyone who you could call a statistic outlier like Maru or Serral.
Now imagine adding 2021 to that while removing Trap and Maru. Protoss would still be fine because Zest and Zoun had some final appearances but I doubt Cure and Clem can save the Terran race.
Feel free to remove NA if you want but then we cannot go "this premier counts, this doesn't" when talking about premier tournaments. BTW fun fact - KOB2 was just major while having lineup worthy of IEM WC.
Edit2> Also I may have added some 2020 major, KOB 1? Not sure now, anyway, that's when I stopped following SC2 so I stopped updating the sheet.
Edit3> And once again, I am not saying Protoss is fine per se, I'm saying that in the relation to the Terran race. The only race being fine is currently Zerg. If you say Protoss is not fine - so is Terran. If you say Terran is fine, so is Protoss. The only difference is Maru can win tourneys now. And if you say - but only Trap wins while you have Cure and Clem - imagine Zoun winning at least one ST (he lost both finals to Trap).
|
|
|
|