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On March 29 2020 12:46 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2020 11:55 Athenau wrote:On March 29 2020 11:04 RKC wrote:On March 29 2020 10:42 Athenau wrote:On March 29 2020 10:16 RKC wrote:On March 29 2020 03:06 Aunvilgodess wrote:On March 29 2020 02:05 RKC wrote: Congrats, Maru!
Personally, it was quite a frustrating watch. I was rooting for Dark. I'm not familiar with the current meta and haven't been following the game as much. So take my mini rant with a pinch of salt.
I felt Maru 'tilted' and made more errors than Dark. Prime example was the BC slip. Somehow, I felt mistakes by Terran are more forgiving, whilst mistakes by Zerg snowballs easier. The games Dark won were a slog despite the early advantages he had (which provides more opportunities for Maru to comeback).
I'm sure the last game must've been entertaining to most viewers due to the non-stop action. But to me, it was just endless drop-attack-drop-attack by Terran. It seemed more like Terran playing against the computer - there wasn't much Dark could do. If Maru executes well, he wins. If not, he loses. There was little strategic or tactical depth to the game. Maybe it was the map, maybe it was Dark's build. It just felt anti-climatic. Oh well. Maybe it's just me.
Oddly enough, I've always been more of a Terran fan. In fact, I'll be rooting for Flash against Action tomorrow. Perhaps it's a matter of taste for play-styles, I appreciate Flash's slow push of doom Terran-style (which perhaps explains why I enjoy Inno more than Maru's games in SC2). Then again, I also enjoy 'creative' plays like Bisu and Boxer in SC2. Also, the reason why I enjoy Dark most amongst other Zergs is his creative styles (Rogue is just too chaotic and erratic).
That's not to say I don't admire Maru's skills in micro and engagements. Somehow, I just find them rather one-dimensional and boring to watch.
To me, the current state of TvZ in SC2 is as annoying as watching ZvP in BW - muta harass (medivac drops) and hydra bust (tankivac timings).
Overall, I'm in a bit funny spot right now. For BW, I root for Terran. For SC2, I root for Zerg. It's something to do with the playstyle and current meta, I suppose. I wonder if someone more enlightened can shed some light...
(Sorry, if I sound rather rambling. Having trouble articulating my thoughts exactly! And to be clear, my comment has nothing to do with balance, but about play-styles.) I think you need to hopp on ladder with Terran to really appreciate what Maru is doing. It may be that Maru had more "slip ups" in the games, but often and especially in the last 3 games he was outmultitasking Dark hard. And that is the ultimate display of skill in SC2. Not micro. Not macro. But the combination of both. If Maru tilted, it was what brought him to new heights of skill. And about Terran being forgiving, you really need to go play some ladder. Sure, its forgiving if you outclass your opponent that hard with multitasking. But for mere mortals that is not possible. I'm in no way diminishing Maru's effort or achievements. Nor claim that others could do what he could do. But whilst I can't rap and rhyme like Eminen, I still consider Dave Grohl as the better musicians... I guess my main point is that I don't quite understand the chills people get from his play-style. Full-on aggression and mult-tasking is nice to watch, but not when it involves a huge margin of error. Of course, it works more often than not for Maru, but I don't find his play 'clean' and flawless. I'm more attuned to BW, so pardon my BW analogies. I find Maru more akin to Bisu than Flash. I get that both get the same amount of love (perhaps more for Bisu, due to the imba likes of BisuDagger). But I still appreciate Flash more as a player. Why? Because Flash plays closer to game-optimal Starcraft. And he's definitely not shy of cheesing and doing timing builds as well. But his games are 'clean' in that he wouldn't take unnecessary risks and rarely ends up in a deficit that requires a great 'comeback' - just slowly grinds his way to victory. As both a viewer and (especially) player, I appreciate this level of perfection more. Yes, I find 'boring' playstyle interesting. SC2 is not Brood War. You can't play a completely safe, defensive style against Zerg. You'll just get rolled over ten minutes later. Like it or not, "optimal" play in the vZ matchups for both Terran and Protoss involve calculated aggression with its attendant risk. Personally, I don't think this is a healthy state of affairs, but it is what its. There is no equivalent to Flash's Terran in SC2. There's nothing like the methodical Terran slow push with tanks, turrets, vultures, and mines. I hear (or at least, used to hear in previous versions of SC2) that Protoss SC2 is more like Terran BW. Prime example being Classic switching from T to P (and also, perhaps Bisu being lost at sea in SC2). Although not perfect, are there parallel comparisons across different races in BW and S2, in terms of playstyles? (On hindsight, maybe I got my earlier analogy wrong. Perhaps Maru SC2 is more like Jaedong BW? Also in terms of passionate fan base ) Protoss was probably the closest to BW Terran in terms of overall gameplan in TvP (defend until you can push out with your ultimate composition) when the Kespa pros switched over (late WoL/early HotS),but it didn't really play anything like Terran. The Protoss army was a deathball which didn't need to siege. This combined with the fluidity of SC2 pathfinding and the tendency of units to bunch up, made engagements short and one-sided rather than the continually (sometimes game long!) battles of BW TvP and TvZ. Terran still has those BW positional elements (siege tanks, mines, and liberators) but they're less emphasized outside of timings today. Terran pros have opted to aim for these slower, more defensive macro styles in the past (TY is famous for this), but they don't consider them favorable with the current state of balance, so they go for aggression instead. Protoss relies more on lower tier units than they did on previous expansions, but against Zerg the name of the game is the same. Kill them before they get there. Zerg is the defender in both non-mirrors, so if what you like about Flash's approach is his optimization of low-variance, macro strategies, then you'll like Zerg. However, if what you like is his _tactics_, then, sad to say, they don't really exist in competitive SC2--Zerg compositions have none of the vulnerabilities that made (e.g) BW mech interesting. Thanks for the analysis. And also to ScrappyRabbit! (sorry, don't know how to multi-quote multiple responses in a single post). It's great that you mention TY. Actually, I fancy his playstyle or 'approach' the most in SC2 (more than Maru, and even Inno - which can be a tad boring and one-dimensional as well). TY seemed to have the right balance of creative builds, multi-tasking, and so on. If Maru and Inno sat at different ends of the spectrum, TY sits in the middle. At least, that's how it looks to my uninitiated eyes. Any thoughts about TY's 'slump' in LOTV? His preferred playstyle not jiving with the current meta, perhaps? Ultimately, what I like about Flash is his ability to master all aspects of Terran in BW. He may not have a distinct winning playstyle (like Fantasy in BW or Maru/Byun in SC2). He's complete in a sense that he has mastered Terran as a whole (I just don't get the same feeling from Maru - but perhaps it's more down to Maru 'abusing' whatever is optimal in the current meta). However, I get the same feeling from Dark. And if so, maybe the weakness of Dark is that he's like a jack of all trades, but master of none. So he still struggles to close out matches and win tourney even if the current meta favours Zerg. But the plus side is that he's stable throughout SC2. (Yes, I know Maru is the most stable Terran throughout SC2 as well, whilst Inno is more inconsistent. Somehow, given how Terran playstyle is skewed towards hyper aggression, I'm still yet to be convinced Maru is the complete player than Flash was (and arguably still is) in BW. Again, different games, so we may never know the true depth and breadth of Maru's skill and potential.)
TY might be burned out -- he started casting last year, which a lot of people took as a sign he was letting of the throttle a bit, he's 25 (old in SC2 years, which is horrifying), and most importantly, he's been a pro since he was 12. He's spent 13 of his 25 years on this planet as a Starcraft pro, I wouldn't blame anyone for being burned out.
As a GIGANTIC Inno (and Flash when he was in SC2) fanboy, Maru is a lot closer to having mastered the race than they are. Like people have said, in SC2 terran really doesn't have the luxury of sitting back, defending, and grinding it out, especially against Zerg. And again, I really do urge you to look at how Maru uses aggression/harass to transition -- nobody is better at getting to the late-game or playing it than Maru, and it's really not close. He's actually pretty greedy, but keeps himself safe by keeping his opponent's units on the other side of the map.
I do wonder if proxying less and relying a bit more on an opener he feels rock-solid about would help Maru in "weekender" tournaments, where he struggles more -- over a best-of-5 or best-of-7 his variance is a big asset and his skill generally wins out, but dropping maps against lesser players with risky builds can really hurt playing a lot of short series back-to-back.
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On March 29 2020 16:22 ScrappyRabbit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2020 12:46 RKC wrote:On March 29 2020 11:55 Athenau wrote:On March 29 2020 11:04 RKC wrote:On March 29 2020 10:42 Athenau wrote:On March 29 2020 10:16 RKC wrote:On March 29 2020 03:06 Aunvilgodess wrote:On March 29 2020 02:05 RKC wrote: Congrats, Maru!
Personally, it was quite a frustrating watch. I was rooting for Dark. I'm not familiar with the current meta and haven't been following the game as much. So take my mini rant with a pinch of salt.
I felt Maru 'tilted' and made more errors than Dark. Prime example was the BC slip. Somehow, I felt mistakes by Terran are more forgiving, whilst mistakes by Zerg snowballs easier. The games Dark won were a slog despite the early advantages he had (which provides more opportunities for Maru to comeback).
I'm sure the last game must've been entertaining to most viewers due to the non-stop action. But to me, it was just endless drop-attack-drop-attack by Terran. It seemed more like Terran playing against the computer - there wasn't much Dark could do. If Maru executes well, he wins. If not, he loses. There was little strategic or tactical depth to the game. Maybe it was the map, maybe it was Dark's build. It just felt anti-climatic. Oh well. Maybe it's just me.
Oddly enough, I've always been more of a Terran fan. In fact, I'll be rooting for Flash against Action tomorrow. Perhaps it's a matter of taste for play-styles, I appreciate Flash's slow push of doom Terran-style (which perhaps explains why I enjoy Inno more than Maru's games in SC2). Then again, I also enjoy 'creative' plays like Bisu and Boxer in SC2. Also, the reason why I enjoy Dark most amongst other Zergs is his creative styles (Rogue is just too chaotic and erratic).
That's not to say I don't admire Maru's skills in micro and engagements. Somehow, I just find them rather one-dimensional and boring to watch.
To me, the current state of TvZ in SC2 is as annoying as watching ZvP in BW - muta harass (medivac drops) and hydra bust (tankivac timings).
Overall, I'm in a bit funny spot right now. For BW, I root for Terran. For SC2, I root for Zerg. It's something to do with the playstyle and current meta, I suppose. I wonder if someone more enlightened can shed some light...
(Sorry, if I sound rather rambling. Having trouble articulating my thoughts exactly! And to be clear, my comment has nothing to do with balance, but about play-styles.) I think you need to hopp on ladder with Terran to really appreciate what Maru is doing. It may be that Maru had more "slip ups" in the games, but often and especially in the last 3 games he was outmultitasking Dark hard. And that is the ultimate display of skill in SC2. Not micro. Not macro. But the combination of both. If Maru tilted, it was what brought him to new heights of skill. And about Terran being forgiving, you really need to go play some ladder. Sure, its forgiving if you outclass your opponent that hard with multitasking. But for mere mortals that is not possible. I'm in no way diminishing Maru's effort or achievements. Nor claim that others could do what he could do. But whilst I can't rap and rhyme like Eminen, I still consider Dave Grohl as the better musicians... I guess my main point is that I don't quite understand the chills people get from his play-style. Full-on aggression and mult-tasking is nice to watch, but not when it involves a huge margin of error. Of course, it works more often than not for Maru, but I don't find his play 'clean' and flawless. I'm more attuned to BW, so pardon my BW analogies. I find Maru more akin to Bisu than Flash. I get that both get the same amount of love (perhaps more for Bisu, due to the imba likes of BisuDagger). But I still appreciate Flash more as a player. Why? Because Flash plays closer to game-optimal Starcraft. And he's definitely not shy of cheesing and doing timing builds as well. But his games are 'clean' in that he wouldn't take unnecessary risks and rarely ends up in a deficit that requires a great 'comeback' - just slowly grinds his way to victory. As both a viewer and (especially) player, I appreciate this level of perfection more. Yes, I find 'boring' playstyle interesting. SC2 is not Brood War. You can't play a completely safe, defensive style against Zerg. You'll just get rolled over ten minutes later. Like it or not, "optimal" play in the vZ matchups for both Terran and Protoss involve calculated aggression with its attendant risk. Personally, I don't think this is a healthy state of affairs, but it is what its. There is no equivalent to Flash's Terran in SC2. There's nothing like the methodical Terran slow push with tanks, turrets, vultures, and mines. I hear (or at least, used to hear in previous versions of SC2) that Protoss SC2 is more like Terran BW. Prime example being Classic switching from T to P (and also, perhaps Bisu being lost at sea in SC2). Although not perfect, are there parallel comparisons across different races in BW and S2, in terms of playstyles? (On hindsight, maybe I got my earlier analogy wrong. Perhaps Maru SC2 is more like Jaedong BW? Also in terms of passionate fan base ) Protoss was probably the closest to BW Terran in terms of overall gameplan in TvP (defend until you can push out with your ultimate composition) when the Kespa pros switched over (late WoL/early HotS),but it didn't really play anything like Terran. The Protoss army was a deathball which didn't need to siege. This combined with the fluidity of SC2 pathfinding and the tendency of units to bunch up, made engagements short and one-sided rather than the continually (sometimes game long!) battles of BW TvP and TvZ. Terran still has those BW positional elements (siege tanks, mines, and liberators) but they're less emphasized outside of timings today. Terran pros have opted to aim for these slower, more defensive macro styles in the past (TY is famous for this), but they don't consider them favorable with the current state of balance, so they go for aggression instead. Protoss relies more on lower tier units than they did on previous expansions, but against Zerg the name of the game is the same. Kill them before they get there. Zerg is the defender in both non-mirrors, so if what you like about Flash's approach is his optimization of low-variance, macro strategies, then you'll like Zerg. However, if what you like is his _tactics_, then, sad to say, they don't really exist in competitive SC2--Zerg compositions have none of the vulnerabilities that made (e.g) BW mech interesting. Thanks for the analysis. And also to ScrappyRabbit! (sorry, don't know how to multi-quote multiple responses in a single post). It's great that you mention TY. Actually, I fancy his playstyle or 'approach' the most in SC2 (more than Maru, and even Inno - which can be a tad boring and one-dimensional as well). TY seemed to have the right balance of creative builds, multi-tasking, and so on. If Maru and Inno sat at different ends of the spectrum, TY sits in the middle. At least, that's how it looks to my uninitiated eyes. Any thoughts about TY's 'slump' in LOTV? His preferred playstyle not jiving with the current meta, perhaps? Ultimately, what I like about Flash is his ability to master all aspects of Terran in BW. He may not have a distinct winning playstyle (like Fantasy in BW or Maru/Byun in SC2). He's complete in a sense that he has mastered Terran as a whole (I just don't get the same feeling from Maru - but perhaps it's more down to Maru 'abusing' whatever is optimal in the current meta). However, I get the same feeling from Dark. And if so, maybe the weakness of Dark is that he's like a jack of all trades, but master of none. So he still struggles to close out matches and win tourney even if the current meta favours Zerg. But the plus side is that he's stable throughout SC2. (Yes, I know Maru is the most stable Terran throughout SC2 as well, whilst Inno is more inconsistent. Somehow, given how Terran playstyle is skewed towards hyper aggression, I'm still yet to be convinced Maru is the complete player than Flash was (and arguably still is) in BW. Again, different games, so we may never know the true depth and breadth of Maru's skill and potential.) TY might be burned out -- he started casting last year, which a lot of people took as a sign he was letting of the throttle a bit, he's 25 (old in SC2 years, which is horrifying), and most importantly, he's been a pro since he was 12. He's spent 13 of his 25 years on this planet as a Starcraft pro, I wouldn't blame anyone for being burned out. As a GIGANTIC Inno (and Flash when he was in SC2) fanboy, Maru is a lot closer to having mastered the race than they are. Like people have said, in SC2 terran really doesn't have the luxury of sitting back, defending, and grinding it out, especially against Zerg. And again, I really do urge you to look at how Maru uses aggression/harass to transition -- nobody is better at getting to the late-game or playing it than Maru, and it's really not close. He's actually pretty greedy, but keeps himself safe by keeping his opponent's units on the other side of the map. I do wonder if proxying less and relying a bit more on an opener he feels rock-solid about would help Maru in "weekender" tournaments, where he struggles more -- over a best-of-5 or best-of-7 his variance is a big asset and his skill generally wins out, but dropping maps against lesser players with risky builds can really hurt playing a lot of short series back-to-back.
Good points. That's why I feel Maru's playstyle in TvZ resembles BW ZvP. Zerg will continually harass Protoss with pokes, drops, busts, and fake busts - all the while macroing up (or faking macro and going for a game-ending bust in mid-game instead). It's fun to watch - from the Zerg's perspective. But as a Protoss (my second favourite race in BW), it's frustrating as hell.
Ultimately, Maru is playing how he feels Terran should be playing - and based on his results, there's no disputing he's figured out Terran LOTV best. So maybe it's more of the meta rather than his abilities that leaves me wanting more.
I also find his proxies annoying. Wish he can cut that out of his game. But I believe it's all part of his game-plan to disrupt the opponent's pattern for him to transition and macro up (rather than cheesing for the win).
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Canada8764 Posts
On March 29 2020 10:02 SamirDuran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2020 08:18 AzAlexZ wrote:On March 29 2020 06:14 Landiah wrote:On March 29 2020 00:43 GoloSC2 wrote:On March 29 2020 00:19 machinus wrote: Maru is better than Serral because his race was not imbalanced when he won his championships. this is so low-effort it's actually amazing Maru is straight up more accomplished than Serral so there is not even a discussion to begin with, we don't even need to talk about balance or anything Maru also played full-time SC2 much longer than Serral, if we narrow it down to full-time commitment duration then Serral managed to win Blizzcon, 6 WCS, 2 GSLvsTW, 3 HSC in 2 years. Meanwhile Maru played for 7 years and still hasn't managed a Blizzcon finals, much less a win Serral is playing competitive sc2 since 2012?
Well he was full time in school until 2017-2018, pretty sure Maru also had to go to school or at least take some classes until he was 16.
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France12466 Posts
On March 29 2020 10:16 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2020 03:06 Aunvilgodess wrote:On March 29 2020 02:05 RKC wrote: Congrats, Maru!
Personally, it was quite a frustrating watch. I was rooting for Dark. I'm not familiar with the current meta and haven't been following the game as much. So take my mini rant with a pinch of salt.
I felt Maru 'tilted' and made more errors than Dark. Prime example was the BC slip. Somehow, I felt mistakes by Terran are more forgiving, whilst mistakes by Zerg snowballs easier. The games Dark won were a slog despite the early advantages he had (which provides more opportunities for Maru to comeback).
I'm sure the last game must've been entertaining to most viewers due to the non-stop action. But to me, it was just endless drop-attack-drop-attack by Terran. It seemed more like Terran playing against the computer - there wasn't much Dark could do. If Maru executes well, he wins. If not, he loses. There was little strategic or tactical depth to the game. Maybe it was the map, maybe it was Dark's build. It just felt anti-climatic. Oh well. Maybe it's just me.
Oddly enough, I've always been more of a Terran fan. In fact, I'll be rooting for Flash against Action tomorrow. Perhaps it's a matter of taste for play-styles, I appreciate Flash's slow push of doom Terran-style (which perhaps explains why I enjoy Inno more than Maru's games in SC2). Then again, I also enjoy 'creative' plays like Bisu and Boxer in SC2. Also, the reason why I enjoy Dark most amongst other Zergs is his creative styles (Rogue is just too chaotic and erratic).
That's not to say I don't admire Maru's skills in micro and engagements. Somehow, I just find them rather one-dimensional and boring to watch.
To me, the current state of TvZ in SC2 is as annoying as watching ZvP in BW - muta harass (medivac drops) and hydra bust (tankivac timings).
Overall, I'm in a bit funny spot right now. For BW, I root for Terran. For SC2, I root for Zerg. It's something to do with the playstyle and current meta, I suppose. I wonder if someone more enlightened can shed some light...
(Sorry, if I sound rather rambling. Having trouble articulating my thoughts exactly! And to be clear, my comment has nothing to do with balance, but about play-styles.) I think you need to hopp on ladder with Terran to really appreciate what Maru is doing. It may be that Maru had more "slip ups" in the games, but often and especially in the last 3 games he was outmultitasking Dark hard. And that is the ultimate display of skill in SC2. Not micro. Not macro. But the combination of both. If Maru tilted, it was what brought him to new heights of skill. And about Terran being forgiving, you really need to go play some ladder. Sure, its forgiving if you outclass your opponent that hard with multitasking. But for mere mortals that is not possible. I'm in no way diminishing Maru's effort or achievements. Nor claim that others could do what he could do. But whilst I can't rap and rhyme like Eminen, I still consider Dave Grohl as the better musicians... I guess my main point is that I don't quite understand the chills people get from his play-style. Full-on aggression and mult-tasking is nice to watch, but not when it involves a huge margin of error. Of course, it works more often than not for Maru, but I don't find his play 'clean' and flawless. I'm more attuned to BW, so pardon my BW analogies. I find Maru more akin to Bisu than Flash. I get that both get the same amount of love (perhaps more for Bisu, due to the imba likes of BisuDagger). But I still appreciate Flash more as a player. Why? Because Flash plays closer to game-optimal Starcraft. And he's definitely not shy of cheesing and doing timing builds as well. But his games are 'clean' in that he wouldn't take unnecessary risks and rarely ends up in a deficit that requires a great 'comeback' - just slowly grinds his way to victory. As both a viewer and (especially) player, I appreciate this level of perfection more. Yes, I find 'boring' playstyle interesting. (I also gave the analogy of Bisu-Flash because I'm mindful that their playstyles are limited to the inherent asymmetrical differences in their race. So perhaps Maru could very play like Flash in BW, and vice versa. Again, I'm in no way diminishing their multi-tasking skills at all.) A huge margin of error? Are you kidding me? Zergs can have vision on an enormous part of the map, and their units are so faast that you can react late and still defend drops and stuff most of the time. If you start multi pronged drop as terran, you will more often than not lose units from the drops. Where do you see a huge margin of error? And it's starcraft 2 not BW, so your Flash / Bisu example is clearly flawed since Flash had almost no clue how to play starcraft 2 "flawlessly", given his rather mediocre achievements on sc2 compared to his utter dominance in BW.
So a better comparison would be that you would rather watch INno style rather than Maru, which is understandable, but this style doesn't work at all when you are against same level players in a difficult match-up, hence why Maru plays more optimal starcraft than INno anyways ; and bringing up Flash to tell us that Maru isn't the Dave Grohl of sc2 (whoever that is, pardon my lack of culture in music ) is fallacious, even though you seem to only/mostly know about BW.
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On March 29 2020 13:29 serralfan18 wrote: Hate to say it, but I think Maru is better than Serral. Kills to me admit that.
I mean...not sure how this series proves that. When the SC2 gods deem the time is right we'll finally get a Maru vs. Serral to put that to the test, and no matter who wins in what fashion the fanboys on either side will still claim their guy is better.
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Maru's longest winning streak came when his race was the underdog. That is the difference between raw talent and race skill. They are both great, but Maru will be rememberd for being a great of the game, not just one of the best players of a race.
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On March 30 2020 00:46 machinus wrote: Maru's longest winning streak came when his race was the underdog. That is the difference between raw talent and race skill. They are both great, but Maru will be rememberd for being a great of the game, not just one of the best players of a race.
Maru has literally been playing Code S since the first one, there have definitely been favorable Terran metas where he hasn't had success, but holding that against him would be ridiculous. He really wasn't considered the best terran in the world until he turned into Ultimate Maru. When you get to the ludicrously high levels of play that guys like Maru, Dark, and Serral are at, I think it's best to think of them outside of their race.
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On March 30 2020 01:15 ScrappyRabbit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2020 00:46 machinus wrote: Maru's longest winning streak came when his race was the underdog. That is the difference between raw talent and race skill. They are both great, but Maru will be rememberd for being a great of the game, not just one of the best players of a race. Maru has literally been playing Code S since the first one, there have definitely been favorable Terran metas where he hasn't had success, but holding that against him would be ridiculous. He really wasn't considered the best terran in the world until he turned into Ultimate Maru. When you get to the ludicrously high levels of play that guys like Maru, Dark, and Serral are at, I think it's best to think of them outside of their race.
Yep! It took me a long time to shed the "Terran is OP" mentality with respect to Flash, but when I did I was able to appreciate him and all other folks who are on the top tier even more.
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On March 30 2020 01:15 ScrappyRabbit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2020 00:46 machinus wrote: Maru's longest winning streak came when his race was the underdog. That is the difference between raw talent and race skill. They are both great, but Maru will be rememberd for being a great of the game, not just one of the best players of a race. Maru has literally been playing Code S since the first one, there have definitely been favorable Terran metas where he hasn't had success, but holding that against him would be ridiculous. He really wasn't considered the best terran in the world until he turned into Ultimate Maru. When you get to the ludicrously high levels of play that guys like Maru, Dark, and Serral are at, I think it's best to think of them outside of their race.
Wasn't he 13 years old though? It's not like he's gonna win tournaments in gomtvt when he's that young. He won OSL when he was 15/16 and kept winning occasional tournaments and destroying on proleague since then. He didn't win as much as other top players but was consistent, persevered in difficult metas, and was the best proleague player, then finally he ascended in 2018.
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On March 30 2020 03:25 serendipitous wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2020 01:15 ScrappyRabbit wrote:On March 30 2020 00:46 machinus wrote: Maru's longest winning streak came when his race was the underdog. That is the difference between raw talent and race skill. They are both great, but Maru will be rememberd for being a great of the game, not just one of the best players of a race. Maru has literally been playing Code S since the first one, there have definitely been favorable Terran metas where he hasn't had success, but holding that against him would be ridiculous. He really wasn't considered the best terran in the world until he turned into Ultimate Maru. When you get to the ludicrously high levels of play that guys like Maru, Dark, and Serral are at, I think it's best to think of them outside of their race. Wasn't he 13 years old though? It's not like he's gonna win tournaments in gomtvt when he's that young. He won OSL when he was 15/16 and kept winning occasional tournaments and destroying on proleague since then. He didn't win as much as other top players but was consistent, persevered in difficult metas, and was the best proleague player, then finally he ascended in 2018.
I'm just saying he's been through all the metas, there have definitely been good ones for Terran since the days of WoL, and Maru's played in them. More importantly, I don't think race balance should be the subject when we're talking about guys at the very, very top level, because they're going to have their own strengths and weaknesses within their race and the guys who have realistic shots to win a Code S/Blizzcon are about 10 players in a playerbase of thousands, trying to figure out overall balance based on them is a bit foolish IMO.
Terran results in the GSL are probably about to nosedive because it looks like TY is closer to the end of his career than the beginning since he's casting and has played 13 years of pro starcraft and Byun is in the military. Before Dark won his GSL, Terran had won 7 in a row -- just because of Gumiho, Innovation, and Maru. Also, a Zerg hadn't won a GSL at that point since Life -- but that would have been different if soO had won either of the 2 finals he played in during that time.
Balance talk is a fun enough way to pass the time when talking about the GM level, or the pro level (the lack of foreign terrans is troubling), or even the low Code S level, but once you get to the very top of the food chain, it's more about the players than the races.
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On March 30 2020 10:11 ScrappyRabbit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2020 03:25 serendipitous wrote:On March 30 2020 01:15 ScrappyRabbit wrote:On March 30 2020 00:46 machinus wrote: Maru's longest winning streak came when his race was the underdog. That is the difference between raw talent and race skill. They are both great, but Maru will be rememberd for being a great of the game, not just one of the best players of a race. Maru has literally been playing Code S since the first one, there have definitely been favorable Terran metas where he hasn't had success, but holding that against him would be ridiculous. He really wasn't considered the best terran in the world until he turned into Ultimate Maru. When you get to the ludicrously high levels of play that guys like Maru, Dark, and Serral are at, I think it's best to think of them outside of their race. Wasn't he 13 years old though? It's not like he's gonna win tournaments in gomtvt when he's that young. He won OSL when he was 15/16 and kept winning occasional tournaments and destroying on proleague since then. He didn't win as much as other top players but was consistent, persevered in difficult metas, and was the best proleague player, then finally he ascended in 2018. I'm just saying he's been through all the metas, there have definitely been good ones for Terran since the days of WoL, and Maru's played in them. More importantly, I don't think race balance should be the subject when we're talking about guys at the very, very top level, because they're going to have their own strengths and weaknesses within their race and the guys who have realistic shots to win a Code S/Blizzcon are about 10 players in a playerbase of thousands, trying to figure out overall balance based on them is a bit foolish IMO. Terran results in the GSL are probably about to nosedive because it looks like TY is closer to the end of his career than the beginning since he's casting and has played 13 years of pro starcraft and Byun is in the military. Before Dark won his GSL, Terran had won 7 in a row -- just because of Gumiho, Innovation, and Maru. Also, a Zerg hadn't won a GSL at that point since Life -- but that would have been different if soO had won either of the 2 finals he played in during that time. Balance talk is a fun enough way to pass the time when talking about the GM level, or the pro level (the lack of foreign terrans is troubling), or even the low Code S level, but once you get to the very top of the food chain, it's more about the players than the races. At the same time zerg won multiple Blizzcon WC titles(Rogue, Serral), IEMs(Rogue, Scarlett), ST(Rogue) and IEM WC(Rogue). It's not like Zerg wasn't winning anything.
Edit> That should cover the Life - Dark period in the Code S quite nicely.
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On March 30 2020 10:11 ScrappyRabbit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2020 03:25 serendipitous wrote:On March 30 2020 01:15 ScrappyRabbit wrote:On March 30 2020 00:46 machinus wrote: Maru's longest winning streak came when his race was the underdog. That is the difference between raw talent and race skill. They are both great, but Maru will be rememberd for being a great of the game, not just one of the best players of a race. Maru has literally been playing Code S since the first one, there have definitely been favorable Terran metas where he hasn't had success, but holding that against him would be ridiculous. He really wasn't considered the best terran in the world until he turned into Ultimate Maru. When you get to the ludicrously high levels of play that guys like Maru, Dark, and Serral are at, I think it's best to think of them outside of their race. Wasn't he 13 years old though? It's not like he's gonna win tournaments in gomtvt when he's that young. He won OSL when he was 15/16 and kept winning occasional tournaments and destroying on proleague since then. He didn't win as much as other top players but was consistent, persevered in difficult metas, and was the best proleague player, then finally he ascended in 2018. I'm just saying he's been through all the metas, there have definitely been good ones for Terran since the days of WoL, and Maru's played in them. More importantly, I don't think race balance should be the subject when we're talking about guys at the very, very top level, because they're going to have their own strengths and weaknesses within their race and the guys who have realistic shots to win a Code S/Blizzcon are about 10 players in a playerbase of thousands, trying to figure out overall balance based on them is a bit foolish IMO. Terran results in the GSL are probably about to nosedive because it looks like TY is closer to the end of his career than the beginning since he's casting and has played 13 years of pro starcraft and Byun is in the military. Before Dark won his GSL, Terran had won 7 in a row -- just because of Gumiho, Innovation, and Maru. Also, a Zerg hadn't won a GSL at that point since Life -- but that would have been different if soO had won either of the 2 finals he played in during that time. Balance talk is a fun enough way to pass the time when talking about the GM level, or the pro level (the lack of foreign terrans is troubling), or even the low Code S level, but once you get to the very top of the food chain, it's more about the players than the races. Nah it's exactly the opposite. Balance doesn't really matter at GM/low pro level because you can always play better, but once you're one of the best players in the world and start hitting the limitations of your race which can be reached by humans balance gets more and more important.
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wow this mary dude is pretty gud.he could become a great starcraft player
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Artosis said that you can find First Person Player VODs on Afreeca. Can somebody tell me how to find them? Can't handle all the korean... :-s
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