Fire Emblem - Page 159
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Alventenie
United States2147 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States42202 Posts
On August 18 2019 06:06 TheYango wrote: There's 2 things going on here. First, units that are sufficiently low level get auto-leveled to level 20, while units that are close to, or above level 20 get something like 1-3 levels. Second, the lords get auto-promoted to their unique class at the start of part 2. If they are really low level, this happens *before* they get auto-leveled because the unique lord classes have no level or weapon rank requirements. So if you leave Claude at level 1 through all of part 1, he gets promoted first to Wyvern Master--which makes him a level 1 unit with 32 HP/19 Str/20 Spd/15 Def, then he gains 19 auto-levels on top of that. This means that going into part 2, Claude will be a level 20 unit with averages of 39 HP/27 Str/30 Spd/21 Def. A "normal" level 30 Wyvern Master Claude that you just raised as a regular unit would only average 38 HP/25 Str/25 Spd/16 Def. By intentionally neglecting him in part 1, you get a unit with categorically better stats, at a lower level (so he gains XP more rapidly), and which took you absolutely no investment (so you get to distribute more XP to other units in part 1). It has nothing to do with class growths, and everything to do with the fact that 3H uses FE1/Gaiden/SoV-style "promote-to-bases" promotion mechanics, coupled with the fact that the unique lord classes have no level requirements or skill prerequisites--taken to their logical extreme. The same thing can be done with the other two lords, it's just a lot better with Claude because a) Wyvern Master has meaningfully better bases than Armored Lord or High Lord (with Armored Lord having a notably awful 6 base Spd), and b) Wyvern Master is a much better class to start using at the start of part 2, while some effort needs to be made to get the skill ranks for Edelgard and Dimitri to unlock Wyvern Rider and Paladin when they see zero combat in part 1. Does this work with all 3 lords, or just Claude? | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + I think that map will be a living nightmare on the Church route in Lunatic, especially if you ignore a character from Black Eagles since only Lords autolevel. | ||
Cricketer12
United States13829 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + | ||
Alventenie
United States2147 Posts
On August 19 2019 11:25 Cricketer12 wrote: Yango and Choco. Who is better and why, claude or edel? The argument for edel appears to be she can reach wyvern faster, and has the better prf weap. + Show Spoiler + Claude imo. If you go by the cheese strat, Claude is guaranteed to be better in all aspects as his bases will be incredible compared to leveling Edel in part 1. And if you do that for Edel to try to even any playing field of getting over stated, you now have to grind all those weapon skills in part 2 to make her a wyvern rider/lord. If you don't go cheese strat, Edel will have higher str growth, but Claude will average more spd/dex, which will be more important personally for just doubling everyone. You can more easily get stronger weapons to fix the str issue (as well as forges), but you can't fix Edel being possibly 6 points of speed slower at level 30. She does have an advantage in that her prf weapon is pretty crazy, but you get so few uses for it if you are abusing its Combat Art. The repair for it requires very rare materials (So rare you don't get any in her route except for 1 map very late in the game). If we are strictly talking ltc playthroughs, Claude will dominate with the auto promote/level cheese because his part 2 class is just far and above what Edels is. Its worth mentioning that Hilda is actually very comparable to Edel if you go wyvern route (slightly lower str, lower mag/dex/res, higher hp/spd), and since the stats she is lower in don't affect wyvern that much, having 2 wyverns that powerful will outweight the individual power people might say Edel has. edit: And I forgot to mention. Even if you level Edel to wyvern in part 1, you can just level Hilda for a GD route, and still get a busted Claude in part 2 without losing the benefits of having a wyvern in part 1. | ||
Cricketer12
United States13829 Posts
On August 19 2019 11:57 Alventenie wrote: Claude imo. If you go by the cheese strat, Claude is guaranteed to be better in all aspects as his bases will be incredible compared to leveling Edel in part 1. And if you do that for Edel to try to even any playing field of getting over stated, you now have to grind all those weapon skills in part 2 to make her a wyvern rider/lord. If you don't go cheese strat, Edel will have higher str growth, but Claude will average more spd/dex, which will be more important personally for just doubling everyone. You can more easily get stronger weapons to fix the str issue (as well as forges), but you can't fix Edel being possibly 6 points of speed slower at level 30. She does have an advantage in that her prf weapon is pretty crazy, but you get so few uses for it if you are abusing its Combat Art. The repair for it requires very rare materials (So rare you don't get any in her route except for 1 map very late in the game). If we are strictly talking ltc playthroughs, Claude will dominate with the auto promote/level cheese because his part 2 class is just far and above what Edels is. Its worth mentioning that Hilda is actually very comparable to Edel if you go wyvern route (slightly lower str, lower mag/dex/res, higher hp/spd), and since the stats she is lower in don't affect wyvern that much, having 2 wyverns that powerful will outweight the individual power people might say Edel has. edit: And I forgot to mention. Even if you level Edel to wyvern in part 1, you can just level Hilda for a GD route, and still get a busted Claude in part 2 without losing the benefits of having a wyvern in part 1. yeah that's what I was thinking, ty for the clarification | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
From a more holistic perspective of who is the better unit, Alventenie covered it pretty well. It's worth noting that Edelgard is actually the worst of the three lords for promotion-boosting cheese, because Armored Lord has a speed base of 6, which is actually lower than Edelgard's speed at level 1, meaning she gains no speed from the process and just ends up with the speed of a normal level 20 Edelgard. You actually probably have to save Speedwings and Speed Carrots for her if you do this. Whereas Claude takes no investment at all to boost, because Wyvern Master's bases are absurd and it's a perfectly reasonable class to keep using in part 2. On August 19 2019 11:25 Cricketer12 wrote: The argument for edel appears to be she can reach wyvern faster, and has the better prf weap. I'm not sure how Edel reaches Wyvern faster. Claude is proficient in flying and has a Budding Talent in Axes, so is proficient after 3 full sessions of instruction. Both of them can reach B Axe C Flying before Advanced Seals become available, and therefore reach Wyvern at the exact same time. And as mentioned earlier, you can miss on one or both certification requirements and still have like 90%+ chance to promote successfully with 3-4 retries over the course of a month. Regarding her Prf, I don't think she's really as advantaged there as it appears. Raging Storm is obviously a better Combat Art than Fallen Star, but Failnaught is a 2-3 range Bow in a game where bows can counter at 1-range, and Aymr is a 1-rangelock Axe. It's like the Fujin Yumi/Brynhildr argument from Fates all over again, where the fact that Fujin Yumi is a good bow and Brynhildr is a mediocre tome tricked people into thinking Fujin Yumi is a better weapon--when in practice tomes are so much better than bows that a good bow is still worse than a mediocre tome. On August 19 2019 11:57 Alventenie wrote: If you don't go cheese strat, Edel will have higher str growth, but Claude will average more spd/dex, which will be more important personally for just doubling everyone. You can more easily get stronger weapons to fix the str issue (as well as forges), but you can't fix Edel being possibly 6 points of speed slower at level 30. There's also the fact that battalions boost attack and not speed. In general, poor str is much easier to fix than poor spd due to there being way more tools to do so. | ||
chocorush
694 Posts
For what it's worth, edelgard turned out pretty mediocre because I didn't know what I was doing and needed the auto promote to get to advanced class. Every other mounted unit I have was far more useful for most of the run. As an offensive unit, she has a lot of strength, but I'm not really doubling problem units. Her bulk doesn't seem exceptional so it's not like I'm tanking a lot of stuff either. For warp skip boss killing, my Pegasus knight byleth was much more useful with the extra player phase speed for doubling, and going Pegasus with edelgard doesn't seem reasonable. | ||
sharkie
Austria17988 Posts
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chocorush
694 Posts
As a player phase nuke, she's doing notably worse than byleth and lysithea, who's just busted anyways, so in my run she isn't filling much of a niche. | ||
sharkie
Austria17988 Posts
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chocorush
694 Posts
If I planned more, I could have gone through pegasus knight for the slightly higher growth rates and the mastery skill. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Regardless, the higher speed tiers go quite high post-timeskip, and even with Wyvern bases there will be quite a few things Edelgard won't double. | ||
Alventenie
United States2147 Posts
One of them just got Edel's relic weapon. Was like this is super op op. Used it all in first map, waiting to see how they react to not being able to repair it for quite a while lol. | ||
Terranasaur
United States2085 Posts
Also, Wyvern Claude with Brave Bow+ and a Crit Ring is the most hilariously OP thing I think I've ever had in a FE game. | ||
Alventenie
United States2147 Posts
Late game combat arts are generally used for just the massive +hit if you need it. You can also 1 hit ko some people with the higher combat arts from relic weapons (Dimitri for example can push some pretty insane hits with his combat art that costs like 8 durability, and will do even more if he procs crest). I think my most used combat art is curved shot though. Just the out range/no counter attack is worth using 3 durability, even if you don't double at that far out. | ||
TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
Also: another notch in Claude's belt is that his battalion is bonkers. Ranged, huge AoE, and the bonuses are great as well. For the cherry on top, flying units can actually use it (unlike the other Lord battalions). Makes getting people to C in NG+ feel preeeetty good. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
For most of the game, the vast majority of combat arts are useless. Basically the same as they were in SoV. | ||
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