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On July 20 2019 08:35 fefil wrote: This is something that I am seeing more and more frequently on the ladder. After not playing for 10 years, I returned a few weeks ago and am currently sitting around 1750 on ladder with P. Unfortunately the reason I am not ~100 points higher is probably because of PvT. I find it nearly impossible to engage a Terran army unless I have arbiters out. Is this the reason that two base arbiter is becoming more and more mainstream? I understand the concept behind 2 base arbiters, but (and this is just theorycrafting) it seems like it would not be worth delaying your third base should they go 1 rax FE or similar. Against FE, you need to take your third pretty damn quickly imo. As in, around the time your natural finishes. Or am I mistaken?
Sometimes I watch the replays in which I lose against this build and I'm just like what the fuck he killed three fucking armies with his single army. I will upload replays later, but I am at the level where I am able to recognize my mistakes. I am moreso looking for general advice on how to counter this build.
I typically go 1 gate core with 1 probe on gas, nexus, probes back on gas, 3 gates, obs, take third after I scout
EXACTLY...
standard pvt goes like this:
1 gate nexus > robo + 3/4 gate> third > add 2nd gas + citadel + forge > stargate + templar ASAP > + 4 gate + mass expand.
plan is to never attack untill you have recall, which should be done arround the same time terran is getting ready to get out with his first big push, outmanouver him to gain time, do not engage whole army vs whole army unless ure 100% certain that u can trade efficiently.
most importantly vs terran BE PATIENT, very very very very very patient and do not panic vs his huge push, as log as terran doesnt have 4th gas and u can do damage with your recalls ure fine.
Watch BeSt PVODs a lot, he is #1 protoss doing this style of PvT.
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XenOsky, isn't it possible to do the opposite though? As in, constant reaver harass, storm drops etc? or were you mainly referring to my entire army vs his entire army?
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i think most of the time no fefil cause T's defense is too strong and you're very likely to lose more than you kill unless he doesn't expect it or it comes early enough etc (or when they are just setting up a new base) with goliath's range upgrade and 75 mineral turrets shooting so quickly @_@ plus sieged tanks shooting instant and mines @_@ it's kind of like that, P can hardly attack T unless recall or carriers @_@
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because siege tanks are fuckin broken
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On July 26 2019 05:58 fefil wrote: XenOsky, isn't it possible to do the opposite though? As in, constant reaver harass, storm drops etc? or were you mainly referring to my entire army vs his entire army?
you can try reaver, but is volatile, specially considering unstable TR of match making.
i think good deffence + good timming is the best way to deal vs 2-1 timming terrans.
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I don't know how u play your PvT, but when u confirm with an observer that terran is going for 3base 1-2 timing, you can relax for a bit. It means u don't need to make units from your gateways non-stop, pay attention to probe production, taking corner / additional expansions, making more gateways. I'm pointing this out because it's a common protoss mistake.
Also, if you have tendencies to engage the terran army, think about adding 3-4 shuttles with zealots. As u said, tanks are broken, so if you unload zealots on top of them, terran is going to kill himself. Try and see if it suits your style or not.
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On July 26 2019 23:58 Bonyth wrote: I don't know how u play your PvT, but when u confirm with an observer that terran is going for 3base 1-2 timing, you can relax for a bit. It means u don't need to make units from your gateways non-stop, pay attention to probe production, taking corner / additional expansions, making more gateways. I'm pointing this out because it's a common protoss mistake.
Also, if you have tendencies to engage the terran army, think about adding 3-4 shuttles with zealots. As u said, tanks are broken, so if you unload zealots on top of them, terran is going to kill himself. Try and see if it suits your style or not. will definitely try it. i only did one shuttle with 2 zeals and 2 high templar for storm. by the way doesn't the 2-1 push come out as their third CC is floating to their third? at least in my games it does
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Some terrans do that on Fighting Spirit. Depends. Each game is unique.
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On July 27 2019 00:10 fefil wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2019 23:58 Bonyth wrote: I don't know how u play your PvT, but when u confirm with an observer that terran is going for 3base 1-2 timing, you can relax for a bit. It means u don't need to make units from your gateways non-stop, pay attention to probe production, taking corner / additional expansions, making more gateways. I'm pointing this out because it's a common protoss mistake.
Also, if you have tendencies to engage the terran army, think about adding 3-4 shuttles with zealots. As u said, tanks are broken, so if you unload zealots on top of them, terran is going to kill himself. Try and see if it suits your style or not. will definitely try it. i only did one shuttle with 2 zeals and 2 high templar for storm. by the way doesn't the 2-1 push come out as their third CC is floating to their third? at least in my games it does
no, 2-1 upgrades don't finish before around the 13 minute mark (there's a big +- depending on early/midgame), that should be several minutes after they take their 3rd. They might move out a little earlier than the upgrade finishes but still the third should be up earlier.
edit: at least that's the standard case. Like bonyth said, there are some terrans who get it all on 2 bases on certain maps but those are rare cases. Terran can get everything up just like that but the standard is the earlier 3rd because it gives you more resources earlier, lets you max out quicker.
If you say you're 1750 points and lose to terrans who do 2-1 on basically 2 bases and take the third only when they push out, then it sounds like your problems stem from insufficient macro(mechanics) - or you're really engaging in a weird way, but until now you got a lot of advice on that.
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On July 27 2019 00:10 fefil wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2019 23:58 Bonyth wrote: I don't know how u play your PvT, but when u confirm with an observer that terran is going for 3base 1-2 timing, you can relax for a bit. It means u don't need to make units from your gateways non-stop, pay attention to probe production, taking corner / additional expansions, making more gateways. I'm pointing this out because it's a common protoss mistake.
Also, if you have tendencies to engage the terran army, think about adding 3-4 shuttles with zealots. As u said, tanks are broken, so if you unload zealots on top of them, terran is going to kill himself. Try and see if it suits your style or not. will definitely try it. i only did one shuttle with 2 zeals and 2 high templar for storm. by the way doesn't the 2-1 push come out as their third CC is floating to their third? at least in my games it does
that sounds like 2 base 2-1? This attack comes out a lot faster. Normally terran will have floated cc to the third at like 9:00 to 9:30 minutes. If you don't see a third at this time and confirm he didn't take it later, then he probably is going allin on 7 facs and trying to max out in 12ish minutes (only if they're very good as it usually takes 13+ minutes or more for most people). Since the attack is a bit faster than 3 base 2-1 but the tank count is a bit lower (since they only have 2 machine shops not 3), I recommend a slightly goon-heavy composition with psi storm while focusing on maxing fast enough to survive the attack. Also, try to get arbiters quickly in general so that you might have a stasis ready in battle but keep in mind that terran will have EMP with this build if they did it properly. Since you probably won't have the time/resource to add gateways to your 4th and that is why 2 base 2-1 is strong. If you lose the fight badly, you probably won't reinforce fast enough to survive and will probably lose as a result.
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On July 27 2019 07:48 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2019 00:10 fefil wrote:On July 26 2019 23:58 Bonyth wrote: I don't know how u play your PvT, but when u confirm with an observer that terran is going for 3base 1-2 timing, you can relax for a bit. It means u don't need to make units from your gateways non-stop, pay attention to probe production, taking corner / additional expansions, making more gateways. I'm pointing this out because it's a common protoss mistake.
Also, if you have tendencies to engage the terran army, think about adding 3-4 shuttles with zealots. As u said, tanks are broken, so if you unload zealots on top of them, terran is going to kill himself. Try and see if it suits your style or not. will definitely try it. i only did one shuttle with 2 zeals and 2 high templar for storm. by the way doesn't the 2-1 push come out as their third CC is floating to their third? at least in my games it does that sounds like 2 base 2-1? This attack comes out a lot faster. Normally terran will have floated cc to the third at like 9:00 to 9:30 minutes. If you don't see a third at this time and confirm he didn't take it later, then he probably is going allin on 7 facs and trying to max out in 12ish minutes (only if they're very good as it usually takes 13+ minutes or more for most people). Since the attack is a bit faster than 3 base 2-1 but the tank count is a bit lower (since they only have 2 machine shops not 3), I recommend a slightly goon-heavy composition with psi storm while focusing on maxing fast enough to survive the attack. Also, try to get arbiters quickly in general so that you might have a stasis ready in battle but keep in mind that terran will have EMP with this build if they did it properly. Since you probably won't have the time/resource to add gateways to your 4th and that is why 2 base 2-1 is strong. If you lose the fight badly, you probably won't reinforce fast enough to survive and will probably lose as a result. thank you friend. any tips for getting my high templars in range without them dying? especially if the ones in the front are spread and the juicy clumps of tanks are in the back. maybe a shuttle with some zealots but that seems unreliable
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On July 27 2019 08:18 fefil wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2019 07:48 Anc13nt wrote:On July 27 2019 00:10 fefil wrote:On July 26 2019 23:58 Bonyth wrote: I don't know how u play your PvT, but when u confirm with an observer that terran is going for 3base 1-2 timing, you can relax for a bit. It means u don't need to make units from your gateways non-stop, pay attention to probe production, taking corner / additional expansions, making more gateways. I'm pointing this out because it's a common protoss mistake.
Also, if you have tendencies to engage the terran army, think about adding 3-4 shuttles with zealots. As u said, tanks are broken, so if you unload zealots on top of them, terran is going to kill himself. Try and see if it suits your style or not. will definitely try it. i only did one shuttle with 2 zeals and 2 high templar for storm. by the way doesn't the 2-1 push come out as their third CC is floating to their third? at least in my games it does that sounds like 2 base 2-1? This attack comes out a lot faster. Normally terran will have floated cc to the third at like 9:00 to 9:30 minutes. If you don't see a third at this time and confirm he didn't take it later, then he probably is going allin on 7 facs and trying to max out in 12ish minutes (only if they're very good as it usually takes 13+ minutes or more for most people). Since the attack is a bit faster than 3 base 2-1 but the tank count is a bit lower (since they only have 2 machine shops not 3), I recommend a slightly goon-heavy composition with psi storm while focusing on maxing fast enough to survive the attack. Also, try to get arbiters quickly in general so that you might have a stasis ready in battle but keep in mind that terran will have EMP with this build if they did it properly. Since you probably won't have the time/resource to add gateways to your 4th and that is why 2 base 2-1 is strong. If you lose the fight badly, you probably won't reinforce fast enough to survive and will probably lose as a result. thank you friend. any tips for getting my high templars in range without them dying? especially if the ones in the front are spread and the juicy clumps of tanks are in the back. maybe a shuttle with some zealots but that seems unreliable it's less unreliable if you have a lot of beef in your army with your HTs, then it's risky for T to prioritize sniping your hts or getting his vults around your army before engagement to kill them, cause even if he does you can then kill quite a bunch of vults too. So with or without shuttle, its a bit different but playable without shuttle
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you can get away without high templars until 2000 but at 2000 you'll need high templars. pure protoss macro is a tight strategy for taking down games. you may or may not want reavers. you may or may not want carriers. the simplest and most effective pvt is arbiters.
at 2000 terrans are good enough that you'll need psi storm. if you psi storm their expansions you'll improve your chances of winning dramatically. if you don't psi storm their expansions then you'll have to deny expansions with your army. if you limit the terran to three bases then there will be a pivotal 5 minutes where the terran has enough stuff to be aggravating. you might be able to kill it all piece-wise with stasis. don't rely on recall past 2000.
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On July 26 2019 23:58 Bonyth wrote: I don't know how u play your PvT, but when u confirm with an observer that terran is going for 3base 1-2 timing, you can relax for a bit. It means u don't need to make units from your gateways non-stop, pay attention to probe production, taking corner / additional expansions, making more gateways. I'm pointing this out because it's a common protoss mistake.
Also, if you have tendencies to engage the terran army, think about adding 3-4 shuttles with zealots. As u said, tanks are broken, so if you unload zealots on top of them, terran is going to kill himself. Try and see if it suits your style or not. thank you! I have been making 3-4 shuttles in my army lately to bridge the vulnerable gap before you get arbiters. my pvt winrate has increased dramatically. its so strong, it really helps dealing with those super deep tank lines.
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