I mentioned this thread in the cast yesterday as we've come to the end of our 15 month journey and I want to get as much feedback/suggestions and things to improve on ahead of time for Season 2! I'll firstly say that the length will be the major thing that will change, this tournament took a LOT longer than I expected, I thought it may last around a year for the whole season, which while incredibly long was meant to split up in 3 month intervals. I couldn't hit those due to various personal reasons so that's one thing I aim to fix next time. I will not be aiming to do a 1 year tournament. It's hard to follow, it's hard to stay excited when there's less on the line each time and it's very hard to actually cast.
I really, really enjoyed the storylines that came out of Season 1 and I had an absolute blast last night in the grand finals, if you missed them please check them out here:
I've spent more hours than I can count trying to make the STPL the best I possibly could and I couldn't have done as much as I did without the help of people like Rapid, Navane, Radley and all the team captains who organised their teams the best they could; which in some cases was against all odds to even get a full roster! I can't change anything about how STPL went or how the last year went, but I will say if I had the opportunity to start it all again I would.
I loved absolutely every single second that I was working on making the STPL better and I hope it showed and I'm going to push even harder to try and blow you all away once again with season 2. The general theming will stay the same so I don't have to redesign everything for a third time, but there will be a LOT more features in the overlay so please look forward to it.
The purpose of this thread is so I can learn what you actually thought. I hear positive comments in the chat and I've really appreciated all of them, it's helped me through some very tough times but the STPL isn't perfect and I want to make it better so if you have any suggestions or general comments please hit them up in the thread!
Finally, to plug a few sites here if that's fine I'd like to keep you up to date and connected with all the new content and upcoming events and what not. The best ways to do it is via these methods:
Follow STPLTV on twitter (twitter.com/stpltv) Subscribe to STPLTV on YouTube (youtube.com/stpltv)
Finally, if you want access to all of the previous and all of the upcoming replays for STPL content then or you want to help support my future ventures monetarily please head on over to the official Patreon. Every cent I get through patreon I will be funneling back into the STPL, be it helping buy me new equiptment to stream at a higher quality or be it adding to future prize pools of events. You can find that patreon below:
Good job Qikz, all in all STPL has been a very good team league and great fun.
3-4 months should be max for this kind of league. Maybe 2 seasons per year with some extra time for playoffs etc
I would also consider changing the name. Its kinda meaningless (at least for non kors), confusing and very difficult to market it. "QL" or "QTL" already sounds better!
Qikz & crew are beasts, consistent high quality content spoiling the community, they just keep on giving.The attention to detail, production, stat tracking etc is cray. I think everyone should be very grateful for what they've done and are still doing for the scene. I have mad respect for them.
Only real suggestions I have is to make it slightly shorter, 15 months is a bit long. Besides that, don't burn yourselves out and keep it up, looking forward to the next season!
Thanks for all your hard work throughout the year Qikz, the BW community is better for STPL and I personally enjoyed it quite a bit. I had reservations about the wierd/imbalanced map pool at first but with a new pool every round, and the format of the wars with 1 map per player each week, I think it ended up being ok in that regard because not every player would have to play every map. I also really liked that matches were announced a week ahead of time, which allowed preparation and time to preplay throughout the week. I liked the 4 1v1, plus ace format as well. I hope this stuff doesnt change.
The few things I do think should change are: #1 No bracket selection advantage after each round for the previous winner. What ended up happening was that the winner would switch the strongest team from their side of the bracket with the weakest team from the other side, so we would get 1 side with the previous champ, plus a bunch of weaker teams, and then all the other strongest teams on the other side fighting for 2 placement spots, while some random weak team gets to advance with the previous winner. I dont know if you plan to do rounds at all next season, or dividing the teams into two brackets or not, but this imo was a problem last season.
#2 No bo3s of wars in playoffs or at any stage. A single bo7 war is plenty, having 3 wars vs the same team gets tiring, especially if its a 1 sided fight either way, and this will help reduce the overall length of the league.
I've started watching I think the 2nd half of the tournament. Production quality got amazing, I don't really think it needs more improvement now. I know the duration of the tournament was even mentioned in the original post, but I would mark that as the most important thing to be changed. Because I was a casual viewer I didn't really search for the "system" in STPL (what's the format/how it works), but to tell you the truth I have no idea what season means what round means and this long duration really takes out the excitement. Otherwise great tournament, statistics are really interesting as well! Keep up the good work!
*Just to add something to my "uninformedness": I thought the final was already done like a month ago, and then I saw this grand finals again, didn't even understand what's going on. (needs to be said most of the time I just watch the games, so maybe it is mentioned between games) (edit: because of this name "[STPL] R4 Playoff Finals - SouL vs NaS 21:00CEST")
"I want to get as much feedback/suggestions and things to improve"
YOUR WORDS HAVE SUMMONED ME!!!
First off great job so far... I have not been the most loyal follower as the content is just too much but w/e Ive watched its been a blast.
1. Show matches: 4v4 Hunters, Team Melee, FFA, NHFFA, Melee, anything that gets a full room of players with mics on is fun... Even grudge matches of 1v1 are fun (as long as the players are not too unevenly matched).
2. Anything that inspires and rewards creative play. Most creative player title, weird maps stuff like that... Surprise me!
3. Rename the tournament to SSPL Shinhan Spank Proleague (you should really do it but it also works as comic relief for people who don't like to read answers longer than 3 words).
4. Allow Random if it isn't currently allowed. #no_rando_discrimination
5. More polls! I like to see what others are thinking on the topics above...
6. Think how to encourage more donations and make some merch...
7. LAN party for Halloween or just dress code: Fun Brood War Themed Costume (Players MUST play in their respective costumes).
I gotta say your production values are hella on point. It seems like you sometimes struggle with stuff in the background (I am not technical enough to really understand it when you are describing it), but the overall end result is well worth it and I appreciate the hard work you put into making STPL look professional. Thank you for your work, best of luck in coming seasons!
I would only wish for a centralized, always up-to-date score page, where results are noted in a timely manner (i.e. 24 hours after broadcast or so). It's a hassle to find updated results even for people actively taking part in the league.
I know that this is pretty tedious and can be frustrating, but it is very important in order to maintain an overview for players as well as spectators.
And as you now have a database for all the stats, it should not be a problem to make a small webpage that fetches that data and displays it automatically once you have updated the data base, what you have to do manually anyway.
On July 02 2019 08:01 kogeT wrote: I would also consider changing the name. Its kinda meaningless (at least for non kors), confusing and very difficult to market it. "QL" or "QTL" already sounds better!
I'd disagree with this. I think the name is hella awesome
On July 02 2019 08:01 kogeT wrote: Good job Qikz, all in all STPL has been a very good team league and great fun.
3-4 months should be max for this kind of league. Maybe 2 seasons per year with some extra time for playoffs etc
I would also consider changing the name. Its kinda meaningless (at least for non kors), confusing and very difficult to market it. "QL" or "QTL" already sounds better!
The names going to stay the same, especially as I already have all my assets and the shirts I have too!) STPL is more likely going to be referred to rather than the full name. Glad you enjoyed it and yes I'll be aiming for 3-4 months per season next time!
On July 02 2019 08:10 80smullet wrote: Qikz & crew are beasts, consistent high quality content spoiling the community, they just keep on giving.The attention to detail, production, stat tracking etc is cray. I think everyone should be very grateful for what they've done and are still doing for the scene. I have mad respect for them.
Only real suggestions I have is to make it slightly shorter, 15 months is a bit long. Besides that, don't burn yourselves out and keep it up, looking forward to the next season!
xoxo
Thanks 80s <3
Yeah 15 months was far, far too long!
On July 02 2019 08:38 FyRe_DragOn wrote: Thanks for all your hard work throughout the year Qikz, the BW community is better for STPL and I personally enjoyed it quite a bit. I had reservations about the wierd/imbalanced map pool at first but with a new pool every round, and the format of the wars with 1 map per player each week, I think it ended up being ok in that regard because not every player would have to play every map. I also really liked that matches were announced a week ahead of time, which allowed preparation and time to preplay throughout the week. I liked the 4 1v1, plus ace format as well. I hope this stuff doesnt change.
The few things I do think should change are: #1 No bracket selection advantage after each round for the previous winner. What ended up happening was that the winner would switch the strongest team from their side of the bracket with the weakest team from the other side, so we would get 1 side with the previous champ, plus a bunch of weaker teams, and then all the other strongest teams on the other side fighting for 2 placement spots, while some random weak team gets to advance with the previous winner. I dont know if you plan to do rounds at all next season, or dividing the teams into two brackets or not, but this imo was a problem last season.
#2 No bo3s of wars in playoffs or at any stage. A single bo7 war is plenty, having 3 wars vs the same team gets tiring, especially if its a 1 sided fight either way, and this will help reduce the overall length of the league.
Thank you very much DragOn, it's been a pleasure having you guys in so I'm glad you enjoyed it!
#1 - I'm thinking of doing away with groups completely, I think it'll be more epic to have every team face every team and there's likely not going to be more than one set of brackets per season to make it quicker.
#2 - I think I'll keep this for the final playoffs, more because it leads to some amazing storylines like NetWars vs WHITE - I don't think we really had a one sided fight this time at least.
On July 02 2019 09:30 SCC-Faust wrote: My only suggestion is wipe my stats for season 2 so I don't have the lowest winrate in STPL anymore.
I'm sorry sir, I'm afraid I can't do that! Although the main stats will reset (or atleast the season stats), but the DB will continue to grow.
On July 02 2019 11:06 TT1 wrote: dog chobo w.o system
dog chobo TT1 tbh
On July 02 2019 18:11 Szinkler wrote: I've started watching I think the 2nd half of the tournament. Production quality got amazing, I don't really think it needs more improvement now. I know the duration of the tournament was even mentioned in the original post, but I would mark that as the most important thing to be changed. Because I was a casual viewer I didn't really search for the "system" in STPL (what's the format/how it works), but to tell you the truth I have no idea what season means what round means and this long duration really takes out the excitement. Otherwise great tournament, statistics are really interesting as well! Keep up the good work!
*Just to add something to my "uninformedness": I thought the final was already done like a month ago, and then I saw this grand finals again, didn't even understand what's going on. (needs to be said most of the time I just watch the games, so maybe it is mentioned between games) (edit: because of this name "[STPL] R4 Playoff Finals - SouL vs NaS 21:00CEST")
Thanks Szinkler. I'm glad you enjoyed the production! Yeah I must admit it must've been really hard to follow especially when it went on over a year. This will be a lot easier to understand next season hopefully!
On July 03 2019 02:01 ProllTarodies wrote: "I want to get as much feedback/suggestions and things to improve"
YOUR WORDS HAVE SUMMONED ME!!!
First off great job so far... I have not been the most loyal follower as the content is just too much but w/e Ive watched its been a blast.
1. Show matches: 4v4 Hunters, Team Melee, FFA, NHFFA, Melee, anything that gets a full room of players with mics on is fun... Even grudge matches of 1v1 are fun (as long as the players are not too unevenly matched).
2. Anything that inspires and rewards creative play. Most creative player title, weird maps stuff like that... Surprise me!
3. Rename the tournament to SSPL Shinhan Spank Proleague (you should really do it but it also works as comic relief for people who don't like to read answers longer than 3 words).
4. Allow Random if it isn't currently allowed. #no_rando_discrimination
5. More polls! I like to see what others are thinking on the topics above...
6. Think how to encourage more donations and make some merch...
7. LAN party for Halloween or just dress code: Fun Brood War Themed Costume (Players MUST play in their respective costumes).
Thank you for your consideration!
Glad you enjoyed it luckynoob. 1. I plan to do more things like this, but not exactly like this. 2. The maps will always be creative ^^ Maybe we can do a post season awards ceremony or something. 3. I won't be doing that haha 4. Random stands against the ability to prepare the week in advance. I won't allow random. 5. I had more polls initially, but I had an issue with just simply not having time. If this is something you wish to help with feel free! 6. That's certainly a plan, I am completely dumbfounded on how to do this one. 7. LAN party might be hard to organise given how far away everyone is for each other
On July 03 2019 10:36 Jealous wrote: I gotta say your production values are hella on point. It seems like you sometimes struggle with stuff in the background (I am not technical enough to really understand it when you are describing it), but the overall end result is well worth it and I appreciate the hard work you put into making STPL look professional. Thank you for your work, best of luck in coming seasons!
Thanks Jealous, yeah sometimes things go wrong in the background and it's usually something that's always worked before so it always confuses me.
On July 04 2019 04:21 chrisolo wrote: I would only wish for a centralized, always up-to-date score page, where results are noted in a timely manner (i.e. 24 hours after broadcast or so). It's a hassle to find updated results even for people actively taking part in the league.
I know that this is pretty tedious and can be frustrating, but it is very important in order to maintain an overview for players as well as spectators.
And as you now have a database for all the stats, it should not be a problem to make a small webpage that fetches that data and displays it automatically once you have updated the data base, what you have to do manually anyway.
Centralised up to date scorepage is one of the things I want as well. Liquipedia could even act like this, but there were so many games over such a long time that I think the people helping with Liquipedia probably got burnt out so not to worry we'll sort this for season 2.
On July 02 2019 08:01 kogeT wrote: I would also consider changing the name. Its kinda meaningless (at least for non kors), confusing and very difficult to market it. "QL" or "QTL" already sounds better!
I'd disagree with this. I think the name is hella awesome
Glad you like the name!
Thanks for all the feedback so far, happy to recieve a lot more!
I got a W.O loss when i spent an entire week msging a team leader to reschedule my match. He kept dodging/putting it off every day (never contacted the player in question) just because he knew i wouldn't be able to show up on Sunday (making it more likely for them to win the match). That's bush league laughable.
Might as well not even have any reschedules if that sorta stuff is allowed in the league, in the future i'll just tell whoever wants a re-schedule that i can't contact their oppo. I'll just put it off till the last day and take the W.O if the opposing team has no replacements.. and if they do have a replacement it'll be a weaker player. Regardless it's a win/win for me.
On July 05 2019 02:53 TT1 wrote: I got a W.O loss when i spent an entire week msging a team leader to reschedule my match. He kept dodging/putting it off every day (never contacted the player in question) just because he knew i wouldn't be able to show up on Sunday (making it more likely for them to win the match). That's bush league laughable.
Might as well not even have any reschedules if that sorta stuff is allowed in the league, in the future i'll just tell whoever wants a re-schedule that i can't contact their oppo. I'll just put it off till the last day and take the W.O if the opposing team has no replacements.. and if they do have a replacement it'll be a weaker player. Regardless it's a win/win for me.
I'm really unsure how I can iterate on this:
1 - Player A OR Player B attempts to contact Player B/Player A but gets no response. - In this case the player who attempted contact via discord and the thread will get the walkover
2 - Player A AND Player B both make contact to play as they can't play at the default time, but one player doesn't show up to their agreed time. - Person who shows up at agreed time will get the walkover.
3 - Player A AND Player B both make contact, but no time is ever arranged or cannot be agreed on. If no time is agreed on then rules will default to the default time. Whoever does not show up at this time after 30 minutes will recieve the loss.
Any suggestions if you think what happened was unfair?
On July 05 2019 02:53 TT1 wrote: I got a W.O loss when i spent an entire week msging a team leader to reschedule my match. He kept dodging/putting it off every day (never contacted the player in question) just because he knew i wouldn't be able to show up on Sunday (making it more likely for them to win the match). That's bush league laughable.
Might as well not even have any reschedules if that sorta stuff is allowed in the league, in the future i'll just tell whoever wants a re-schedule that i can't contact their oppo. I'll just put it off till the last day and take the W.O if the opposing team has no replacements.. and if they do have a replacement it'll be a weaker player. Regardless it's a win/win for me.
I'm really unsure how I can iterate on this:
1 - Player A OR Player B attempts to contact Player B/Player A but gets no response. - In this case the player who attempted contact via discord and the thread will get the walkover
2 - Player A AND Player B both make contact to play as they can't play at the default time, but one player doesn't show up to their agreed time. - Person who shows up at agreed time will get the walkover.
3 - Player A AND Player B both make contact, but no time is ever arranged or cannot be agreed on. If no time is agreed on then rules will default to the default time. Whoever does not show up at this time after 30 minutes will recieve the loss.
Any suggestions if you think what happened was unfair?
Dude I told you what happened. I contacted their team leader almost every day, he said he would arrange the match but he put it off until the last day (i msg'd him almost every day on discord, he kept saying that he couldn't get in touch with Marine, my opponent).
Sunday comes around, I couldn't play and we had no replacement so Marine got the W.O (i don't even know if he showed up or not). The issue is I spent an entire week trying to make the match happen but their leader dodged setting it up because he knew i couldn't play on Sunday. By dodging the reschedule it becomes a win/win for him, either i don't make it on match day or I get replaced with a weaker member. It's an easy way of abusing the system. Worst part is me and my team got the loss when I did everything in my power to play the match. I re-scheduled every single one of my STPL matches and never had an issue with any other team.
b) Also - no full korean teams would be cool. The 2 korean teams we had in Season 1 were way too strong, imo. Maybe make it so the team can have 2 koreans in the roster or something, but no more than that. Koreans have their own leagues anyways
c) Make it one group, so everyone plays everyone once, then 6 team playoff. I think that it would be much more fair this way.
Otherwise than that - awesome league, I really loved it. The production value was especially good. I hope Season 2 is going to be coming really soon!
On July 05 2019 02:53 TT1 wrote: I got a W.O loss when i spent an entire week msging a team leader to reschedule my match. He kept dodging/putting it off every day (never contacted the player in question) just because he knew i wouldn't be able to show up on Sunday (making it more likely for them to win the match). That's bush league laughable.
Might as well not even have any reschedules if that sorta stuff is allowed in the league, in the future i'll just tell whoever wants a re-schedule that i can't contact their oppo. I'll just put it off till the last day and take the W.O if the opposing team has no replacements.. and if they do have a replacement it'll be a weaker player. Regardless it's a win/win for me.
I'm really unsure how I can iterate on this:
1 - Player A OR Player B attempts to contact Player B/Player A but gets no response. - In this case the player who attempted contact via discord and the thread will get the walkover
2 - Player A AND Player B both make contact to play as they can't play at the default time, but one player doesn't show up to their agreed time. - Person who shows up at agreed time will get the walkover.
3 - Player A AND Player B both make contact, but no time is ever arranged or cannot be agreed on. If no time is agreed on then rules will default to the default time. Whoever does not show up at this time after 30 minutes will recieve the loss.
Any suggestions if you think what happened was unfair?
Dude I told you what happened. I contacted their team leader almost every day, he said he would arrange the match but he put it off until the last day (i msg'd him almost every day on discord, he kept saying that he couldn't get in touch with Marine, my opponent).
Sunday comes around, I couldn't play and we had no replacement so Marine got the W.O (i don't even know if he showed up or not). The issue is I spent an entire week trying to make the match happen but their leader dodged setting it up because he knew i couldn't play on Sunday. By dodging the reschedule it becomes a win/win for him, either i don't make it on match day or I get replaced with a weaker member. It's an easy way of abusing the system. Worst part is me and my team got the loss when I did everything in my power to play the match. I re-scheduled every single one of my STPL matches and never had an issue with any other team.
No shit it's unfair.
The question is in what way could the rules be changed to make it more fair, because I don't see how. You are simply speculating that he dodged you on purpose. And even if you would have contacted Marine, what if he says he cannot play at another time or only when you are sleeping/working? The outcome is the same. From the numerous team leagues I played in, especially, if there is money involved and teams from all over the world participate, you better show up on the scheduled time because a successful rescheduled match is a rare occurrence. I would just scratch these rules altogether.
Its ALL_CAPS... My nickname... This is very important.
On the more relevant topics:
Well here is a Poll fOu:
Should Random be allowed:
1. Yes 2. No 3. Yes, but the player MUST announce their race as soon as they split their workers. (Kinda defeats the point but might still be cool)
Keep in mind a Random player would have to prepare 3 races instead of 1! As a player you are on regular basis playing against everybody anyway... A person who goes random would definitely lack in their late game 66% of the time. I dont know if any1 would pick it or has requested it..
As for LAN you just have to outsource for NA. Rapid can take care of the Asia and the region and you do a Europe version. Charge tickets - PROFIT!
On July 05 2019 02:53 TT1 wrote: I got a W.O loss when i spent an entire week msging a team leader to reschedule my match. He kept dodging/putting it off every day (never contacted the player in question) just because he knew i wouldn't be able to show up on Sunday (making it more likely for them to win the match). That's bush league laughable.
Might as well not even have any reschedules if that sorta stuff is allowed in the league, in the future i'll just tell whoever wants a re-schedule that i can't contact their oppo. I'll just put it off till the last day and take the W.O if the opposing team has no replacements.. and if they do have a replacement it'll be a weaker player. Regardless it's a win/win for me.
I'm really unsure how I can iterate on this:
1 - Player A OR Player B attempts to contact Player B/Player A but gets no response. - In this case the player who attempted contact via discord and the thread will get the walkover
2 - Player A AND Player B both make contact to play as they can't play at the default time, but one player doesn't show up to their agreed time. - Person who shows up at agreed time will get the walkover.
3 - Player A AND Player B both make contact, but no time is ever arranged or cannot be agreed on. If no time is agreed on then rules will default to the default time. Whoever does not show up at this time after 30 minutes will recieve the loss.
Any suggestions if you think what happened was unfair?
Dude I told you what happened. I contacted their team leader almost every day, he said he would arrange the match but he put it off until the last day (i msg'd him almost every day on discord, he kept saying that he couldn't get in touch with Marine, my opponent).
Sunday comes around, I couldn't play and we had no replacement so Marine got the W.O (i don't even know if he showed up or not). The issue is I spent an entire week trying to make the match happen but their leader dodged setting it up because he knew i couldn't play on Sunday. By dodging the reschedule it becomes a win/win for him, either i don't make it on match day or I get replaced with a weaker member. It's an easy way of abusing the system. Worst part is me and my team got the loss when I did everything in my power to play the match. I re-scheduled every single one of my STPL matches and never had an issue with any other team.
No shit it's unfair.
TT1 I'm the leader of Psi - and I didn't put you down and didn't tell you we would arrange the match. - I told I'd do my best to play the game.
It's quite a difference.
And you know - people have other duties and during the week some people need to take a vacation just to play...
Also, I added you to a chat where you can get in touch with your opponent directly and set up a time and place where to play.
And FFS you are not the center of the universe - I don't know what's your availability lol
I'm always doing my best to play every possible match. Just don't whine on our direction. OK?
Edit: Just checked our chat log and the first time you contacted me I answered you in EXACTLY 14 minutes. At 00:04 AM my local time.
- Didn't expect such whining by one of the prominent members of our community!
- I got tired of teams listing players for a certain match that are for sure not available on the deadline, and when the time comes - they completely refurbish their line up.
This is a bad manner and displays poor management skills. Shit happens but not in 10 out of 10 matches! Borderline with cheating imo