I think a big part of MC legacy outside of Korea, is that the guy played in literaly anything. He had more disapointing results than most of the great "foreign koreans" not just more good results. So while I think that he was the best protoss in WoL and still one of the best in HOTS, I think Stats made more of the opportunity he was given.
With all that said, I still voted for MC, his work behind the scene tip the scale for me.
On June 23 2019 18:53 Xain0n wrote: The anti-WoL bias is impressive.
Well not really the 3 best players in WoL are ofter ranked very high : MVP/taeja/you know who MMA as good as he was is clearly behind Maru
MC is by far the most over-rated player of all Time because he was the best at crushing lesser player. He won two gsl code S The first one he beated Odin who qualified twice for open Season 2 and 3 Lost in the opening round never to qualify again hyperdub a random terran whose greatest achievement is a top 16 in the first code S Julyzerg one of the best zerg at the time who fade away pretty quickly Marineking most likely the best terran at that Time Jinro foreign Monster and one of the best terran for a few months Rain in the finals who never made it past ro32 ever again
So to win a GSL MC had to beat three worthy opponents (even if the only really good one was mkp) the others where a bunch of low tier Scrubs who where there only because the game was so fresh
His second gsl he beat July and hyperdub again in bo1 (Monster feat) Byun who became good much later even if he made a ro4 latter in the year Hongun a random protoss who made some splash in the gsl in 2011 only to disapered as soon as the competition got better San not even gonna comment on the fact that you could face San in early 2011 to go to the finals July zerg again in the finals
In two GSL mc only had to beat one of the great of History
"But MC was so good outside of gsl" let see about that MLG : In 2011 when he was among the first Korean to be invited he went 3rd at Colombus and 2nd at Orlando 6th at providence everytime the script was the same beats a bunch of foreigners and some low tier koreans (plus mkp) wins against Idra loses against Huk Not Really worthy of one of the goat 2012 is way worse as more good Korean where able to travel mc never made it past 4th place 6 MLG and only two better results than ro8 IEM ? 2nd at Cologne losing to the only other Korean the great puma Won iem World by going 3-2 in groupe stage against a bunch of foreigners and somehow still toping the group then beating violet in ro8 the great Feast un semis and again puma in finals The next Season top 8 at Cologne getting 3-0 by nerchio then top 8 at Singapore getting 3-2 by grubby and didn't get out of group stage in IEM world being in a group with Yoda ret and first ... (Now kids remember of serral 5 wcs in a row)
NASL ? 2nd by beating boxer select and sen in NASL1 before losing to puma again in the final 3rd by beating puma and a bunch of foreigner in NASL3
TSL3 ? Top8 losing to Thorzain
Results before the region lock are meuh at best after the region. Lock he farmed the third division for 2 years and lost in first round at blizzcon twice
The fact the MC is rank above DRG for example is beyond me he was a good player with a loud fucking mouth who embarrassed players with cheesy plays. The only reason he won that much money is because he rack up many top8+ by being able to fly 3 times more then everybody else by being famous his "fun personality"
Edit :
On June 23 2019 23:38 Xain0n wrote:
On June 23 2019 22:05 Morbidius wrote:
On June 23 2019 18:53 Xain0n wrote: The anti-WoL bias is impressive.
No WCS region locked tournaments in WoL.
Oh, I know! You can't look at NASL S1 and tell me it was Puma taking down weak foreigners, because foreigners weren't that weak in 2011(Huk was in Code S reaching ro8 at the time) and there were strong korean players in the lineup(Puma beat Squirtle, July and MC on his way to the title).
The fact that they were 5 good foreigners in 2011 (idra huk Nani sen and jinro/Thorzain) didn't change the fact that the rest were terrible. Squirtle was so good in 2011 he never qualify for a single code S The offline part of nasl was filled with second tier Korean moon and Squirtle weren't code S player alive was barely at that time MC and July were the only strong code S player and puma was a strong Korean in his foreign kingdom that's even more region lock than 2014
Stephano, Dimaga, White Ra, Mana, Nerchio were not good enough in 2011? Also, from your analysis not only foreigner were "terrible", half of the koreans were.
Judging players in retrospective is a risky business(San and HongUn were legit at the time, for example), Sc2 in his first years was quite a different game than it later became and many pioneers were playing, yet they were the best players for their times: if MC took down July in Code S finals when the latter was the best Zerg, it counts as winning against the best Zerg even if he retained that title for mere months: I wouldn't say this is a worse feat than Zest taking down soO when he was the best Zerg in the world(despite soO's career being way longer and more relevant in comparison to July's).
You did not consider the fact Protoss were struggling in Korea in 2011; regarding his international success, MC surely travelled a lot but he was consistently good. During his era, he was the best Protoss in the world, even if now we can look down on his opponents since they didn't age well. Regardless of increased competition, he declined as a player after 2012.
Stephano became good late 2011 i don't really see what it has to do with nasl 1 actually in my eyes stephano became good at the same time as the competition became legit Dimaga and Mana both were around 50% against Korean in 2011 and were solid threats for foreigners (especially dimaga can't believe I forgot about him) but they didn't play that much against Korean (specially dimaga who only tourney was gsl vs the world) Whitera was 25% so no Nerchio only offline result against Korean was him getting 3-0 by puma in 2011
It's hard to classified foreigners as those who didn't play in gsl didn't face many Korean
San wasn't legit you Can Google artosis eating a Sword if he get pass group stage one or two good result doesn't make you a legit player same with hongun. At no point in 2011 julyzerg was considered better than neatea. There is no doubt that mc was the best protoss is 2011 but the point of seeing how well everyone did later on allow us to judge how great he was. Federer and Nadal are the best of all time in part because they played one against an other in final time after time if Federer dominated tennis as he did when his competition wasn't that good and then farmed atp 500 and never won another Grand slam as soon as Nadal arrived he wouldn't be the goat
Beating julyzerg in finals isn't the same as beating soO in ro4 (soO in final is another deal :'( )
Against top competition prime mc (pre2012) is : 10-9 against mkp 6-9 against MVP 1-4 against MMA 0-5 against polt 3-4 against nestea 9-4 against July
I've to say the fact that he was the only good protoss in Korea in an era filled with Terran doess give him some credit that I may not want to admit. I still think he is overrated though
On June 23 2019 18:53 Xain0n wrote: The anti-WoL bias is impressive.
Well not really the 3 best players in WoL are ofter ranked very high : MVP/taeja/you know who MMA as good as he was is clearly behind Maru
MC is by far the most over-rated player of all Time because he was the best at crushing lesser player. He won two gsl code S The first one he beated Odin who qualified twice for open Season 2 and 3 Lost in the opening round never to qualify again hyperdub a random terran whose greatest achievement is a top 16 in the first code S Julyzerg one of the best zerg at the time who fade away pretty quickly Marineking most likely the best terran at that Time Jinro foreign Monster and one of the best terran for a few months Rain in the finals who never made it past ro32 ever again
So to win a GSL MC had to beat three worthy opponents (even if the only really good one was mkp) the others where a bunch of low tier Scrubs who where there only because the game was so fresh
His second gsl he beat July and hyperdub again in bo1 (Monster feat) Byun who became good much later even if he made a ro4 latter in the year Hongun a random protoss who made some splash in the gsl in 2011 only to disapered as soon as the competition got better San not even gonna comment on the fact that you could face San in early 2011 to go to the finals July zerg again in the finals
In two GSL mc only had to beat one of the great of History
"But MC was so good outside of gsl" let see about that MLG : In 2011 when he was among the first Korean to be invited he went 3rd at Colombus and 2nd at Orlando 6th at providence everytime the script was the same beats a bunch of foreigners and some low tier koreans (plus mkp) wins against Idra loses against Huk Not Really worthy of one of the goat 2012 is way worse as more good Korean where able to travel mc never made it past 4th place 6 MLG and only two better results than ro8 IEM ? 2nd at Cologne losing to the only other Korean the great puma Won iem World by going 3-2 in groupe stage against a bunch of foreigners and somehow still toping the group then beating violet in ro8 the great Feast un semis and again puma in finals The next Season top 8 at Cologne getting 3-0 by nerchio then top 8 at Singapore getting 3-2 by grubby and didn't get out of group stage in IEM world being in a group with Yoda ret and first ... (Now kids remember of serral 5 wcs in a row)
NASL ? 2nd by beating boxer select and sen in NASL1 before losing to puma again in the final 3rd by beating puma and a bunch of foreigner in NASL3
TSL3 ? Top8 losing to Thorzain
Results before the region lock are meuh at best after the region. Lock he farmed the third division for 2 years and lost in first round at blizzcon twice
The fact the MC is rank above DRG for example is beyond me he was a good player with a loud fucking mouth who embarrassed players with cheesy plays. The only reason he won that much money is because he rack up many top8+ by being able to fly 3 times more then everybody else by being famous his "fun personality"
Edit :
On June 23 2019 23:38 Xain0n wrote:
On June 23 2019 22:05 Morbidius wrote:
On June 23 2019 18:53 Xain0n wrote: The anti-WoL bias is impressive.
No WCS region locked tournaments in WoL.
Oh, I know! You can't look at NASL S1 and tell me it was Puma taking down weak foreigners, because foreigners weren't that weak in 2011(Huk was in Code S reaching ro8 at the time) and there were strong korean players in the lineup(Puma beat Squirtle, July and MC on his way to the title).
The fact that they were 5 good foreigners in 2011 (idra huk Nani sen and jinro/Thorzain) didn't change the fact that the rest were terrible. Squirtle was so good in 2011 he never qualify for a single code S The offline part of nasl was filled with second tier Korean moon and Squirtle weren't code S player alive was barely at that time MC and July were the only strong code S player and puma was a strong Korean in his foreign kingdom that's even more region lock than 2014
Stephano, Dimaga, White Ra, Mana, Nerchio were not good enough in 2011? Also, from your analysis not only foreigner were "terrible", half of the koreans were.
Judging players in retrospective is a risky business(San and HongUn were legit at the time, for example), Sc2 in his first years was quite a different game than it later became and many pioneers were playing, yet they were the best players for their times: if MC took down July in Code S finals when the latter was the best Zerg, it counts as winning against the best Zerg even if he retained that title for mere months: I wouldn't say this is a worse feat than Zest taking down soO when he was the best Zerg in the world(despite soO's career being way longer and more relevant in comparison to July's).
You did not consider the fact Protoss were struggling in Korea in 2011; regarding his international success, MC surely travelled a lot but he was consistently good. During his era, he was the best Protoss in the world, even if now we can look down on his opponents since they didn't age well. Regardless of increased competition, he declined as a player after 2012.
Stephano became good late 2011 i don't really see what it has to do with nasl 1 actually in my eyes stephano became good at the same time as the competition became legit Dimaga and Mana both were around 50% against Korean in 2011 and were solid threats for foreigners (especially dimaga can't believe I forgot about him) but they didn't play that much against Korean (specially dimaga who only tourney was gsl vs the world) Whitera was 25% so no Nerchio only offline result against Korean was him getting 3-0 by puma in 2011
It's hard to classified foreigners as those who didn't play in gsl didn't face many Korean
San wasn't legit you Can Google artosis eating a Sword if he get pass group stage one or two good result doesn't make you a legit player same with hongun. At no point in 2011 julyzerg was considered better than neatea. There is no doubt that mc was the best protoss is 2011 but the point of seeing how well everyone did later on allow us to judge how great he was. Federer and Nadal are the best of all time in part because they played one against an other in final time after time if Federer dominated tennis as he did when his competition wasn't that good and then farmed atp 500 and never won another Grand slam as soon as Nadal arrived he wouldn't be the goat
Beating julyzerg in finals isn't the same as beating soO in ro4 (soO in final is another deal :'( )
You said there were only five good foreigners in 2011, that's not true; I agree it could be hard to rank those who didn't play much against koreans. San reached ro4 in Code S twice in 2011, HongUn ro8 and ro4 in 2010 plus ro4 in 2011 so I guess they could be viewed as legit played back in the days; around March 2011, July could easily be seen as better than NesTea. MC was much greater than any of the korean Protoss who were around when he was in his prime, you can't deny that: he was the face of the race itself and that happened in the dreaded GoMTvT era.
I get your point, but careers in Tennis have a much longer span than they do in Sc2; when Nadal/KeSpa arrived, MC was already descending unlike Federer who just was in his first phase of domination. The fact MC found minor success in HoTS actually adds something to his career, in my opinion.
On June 23 2019 18:53 Xain0n wrote: The anti-WoL bias is impressive.
Well not really the 3 best players in WoL are ofter ranked very high : MVP/taeja/you know who MMA as good as he was is clearly behind Maru
MC is by far the most over-rated player of all Time because he was the best at crushing lesser player. He won two gsl code S The first one he beated Odin who qualified twice for open Season 2 and 3 Lost in the opening round never to qualify again hyperdub a random terran whose greatest achievement is a top 16 in the first code S Julyzerg one of the best zerg at the time who fade away pretty quickly Marineking most likely the best terran at that Time Jinro foreign Monster and one of the best terran for a few months Rain in the finals who never made it past ro32 ever again
So to win a GSL MC had to beat three worthy opponents (even if the only really good one was mkp) the others where a bunch of low tier Scrubs who where there only because the game was so fresh
His second gsl he beat July and hyperdub again in bo1 (Monster feat) Byun who became good much later even if he made a ro4 latter in the year Hongun a random protoss who made some splash in the gsl in 2011 only to disapered as soon as the competition got better San not even gonna comment on the fact that you could face San in early 2011 to go to the finals July zerg again in the finals
In two GSL mc only had to beat one of the great of History
"But MC was so good outside of gsl" let see about that MLG : In 2011 when he was among the first Korean to be invited he went 3rd at Colombus and 2nd at Orlando 6th at providence everytime the script was the same beats a bunch of foreigners and some low tier koreans (plus mkp) wins against Idra loses against Huk Not Really worthy of one of the goat 2012 is way worse as more good Korean where able to travel mc never made it past 4th place 6 MLG and only two better results than ro8 IEM ? 2nd at Cologne losing to the only other Korean the great puma Won iem World by going 3-2 in groupe stage against a bunch of foreigners and somehow still toping the group then beating violet in ro8 the great Feast un semis and again puma in finals The next Season top 8 at Cologne getting 3-0 by nerchio then top 8 at Singapore getting 3-2 by grubby and didn't get out of group stage in IEM world being in a group with Yoda ret and first ... (Now kids remember of serral 5 wcs in a row)
NASL ? 2nd by beating boxer select and sen in NASL1 before losing to puma again in the final 3rd by beating puma and a bunch of foreigner in NASL3
TSL3 ? Top8 losing to Thorzain
Results before the region lock are meuh at best after the region. Lock he farmed the third division for 2 years and lost in first round at blizzcon twice
The fact the MC is rank above DRG for example is beyond me he was a good player with a loud fucking mouth who embarrassed players with cheesy plays. The only reason he won that much money is because he rack up many top8+ by being able to fly 3 times more then everybody else by being famous his "fun personality"
Edit :
On June 23 2019 23:38 Xain0n wrote:
On June 23 2019 22:05 Morbidius wrote:
On June 23 2019 18:53 Xain0n wrote: The anti-WoL bias is impressive.
No WCS region locked tournaments in WoL.
Oh, I know! You can't look at NASL S1 and tell me it was Puma taking down weak foreigners, because foreigners weren't that weak in 2011(Huk was in Code S reaching ro8 at the time) and there were strong korean players in the lineup(Puma beat Squirtle, July and MC on his way to the title).
The fact that they were 5 good foreigners in 2011 (idra huk Nani sen and jinro/Thorzain) didn't change the fact that the rest were terrible. Squirtle was so good in 2011 he never qualify for a single code S The offline part of nasl was filled with second tier Korean moon and Squirtle weren't code S player alive was barely at that time MC and July were the only strong code S player and puma was a strong Korean in his foreign kingdom that's even more region lock than 2014
Stephano, Dimaga, White Ra, Mana, Nerchio were not good enough in 2011? Also, from your analysis not only foreigner were "terrible", half of the koreans were.
Judging players in retrospective is a risky business(San and HongUn were legit at the time, for example), Sc2 in his first years was quite a different game than it later became and many pioneers were playing, yet they were the best players for their times: if MC took down July in Code S finals when the latter was the best Zerg, it counts as winning against the best Zerg even if he retained that title for mere months: I wouldn't say this is a worse feat than Zest taking down soO when he was the best Zerg in the world(despite soO's career being way longer and more relevant in comparison to July's).
You did not consider the fact Protoss were struggling in Korea in 2011; regarding his international success, MC surely travelled a lot but he was consistently good. During his era, he was the best Protoss in the world, even if now we can look down on his opponents since they didn't age well. Regardless of increased competition, he declined as a player after 2012.
Stephano became good late 2011 i don't really see what it has to do with nasl 1 actually in my eyes stephano became good at the same time as the competition became legit Dimaga and Mana both were around 50% against Korean in 2011 and were solid threats for foreigners (especially dimaga can't believe I forgot about him) but they didn't play that much against Korean (specially dimaga who only tourney was gsl vs the world) Whitera was 25% so no Nerchio only offline result against Korean was him getting 3-0 by puma in 2011
It's hard to classified foreigners as those who didn't play in gsl didn't face many Korean
San wasn't legit you Can Google artosis eating a Sword if he get pass group stage one or two good result doesn't make you a legit player same with hongun. At no point in 2011 julyzerg was considered better than neatea. There is no doubt that mc was the best protoss is 2011 but the point of seeing how well everyone did later on allow us to judge how great he was. Federer and Nadal are the best of all time in part because they played one against an other in final time after time if Federer dominated tennis as he did when his competition wasn't that good and then farmed atp 500 and never won another Grand slam as soon as Nadal arrived he wouldn't be the goat
Beating julyzerg in finals isn't the same as beating soO in ro4 (soO in final is another deal :'( )
You said there were only five good foreigners in 2011, that's not true; I agree it could be hard to rank those who didn't play much against koreans. San reached ro4 in Code S twice in 2011, HongUn ro8 and ro4 in 2010 plus ro4 in 2011 so I guess they could be viewed as legit played back in the days; around March 2011, July could easily be seen as better than NesTea. MC was much greater than any of the korean Protoss who were around when he was in his prime, you can't deny that: he was the face of the race itself and that happened in the dreaded GoMTvT era.
I get your point, but careers in Tennis have a much longer span than they do in Sc2; when Nadal/KeSpa arrived, MC was already descending unlike Federer who just was in his first phase of domination. The fact MC found minor success in HoTS actually adds something to his career, in my opinion.
Nope san made one ro4 of code S by showing how op the amulet was (so op that it was removed days after the final) and then beat whitera and dimaga in gsl vs the world to reach a second ro4 Okaish for hongun Don't rewrite history I dare you to find 2011 posts claiming that July was the best And your point about mc career being short is exactly mine hoz can he be one of the best when he was such for a very short time stats has been a beast for years and in a very competitive environment
Maybe there were more than 5 good foreigners doesn't matter as they didn't play against Koreans in tourney
I don't get the point in considering a players overall legacy when judging how hard they were to beat at that time. Dear was a god in late 2013 but didn't win anything after. So beating him at that time wouldn't have been impressive because he doesn't have a lot of achievements? The same applies to Julyzerg etc. They were really good players back then.
On June 24 2019 05:32 Charoisaur wrote: I don't get the point in considering a players overall legacy when judging how hard they were to beat at that time. Dear was a god in late 2013 but didn't win anything after. So beating him at that time wouldn't have been impressive because he doesn't have a lot of achievements? The same applies to Julyzerg etc. They were really good players back then.
I literally wrote that July Zerg was one of the best Zerg at that time and beating him was very impressive still the fact that he fade away in 2012 as almost all of the gsl code S roster mc won is an indicator of the low level of competition of that gsl
Your example with dear doesn't make any sense first because dear made 4 ro4 in a row later in his career that is not desapering in my book second because almost all of the code S player of March 2011 weren't code S level 6 months later when the game got figured out that was just not the case in 2013
On June 20 2019 13:08 Moonerz wrote: It's still early but I'm surprised to see soO beating herO. herO won multiple IEMs and was an absolute killer in Proleague.
soO was far and away the best and most consistent Zerg for what felt like forever, even though he didn't win the tournaments he made it to.
Back to back seasons leading Proleague in wins, 3 IEMs, Kespa Cup and an SSL in that same 2-3 year window is pretty dominant to me. That tops any period of dominance that soO has had. But soO is crushing in the voting
First IEM he won hero beat all the WOL old guard. That could have been a feat if it wasn't late 2013 on HOTS : dream bomber in groupe stage MVP in ro8 DRG on ro4 (that was the last ro4 drg ever made in premier) and the oh so frightening San in finals. Fun fact because you seems to rank proleague so highly effort and Hydra where the only proleague players to play in this tourney. What a way to start a period of dominance Second IEM is even better Lost to polt and beats kelazhur and tunico on groupe stage then major in the ro8 tlo in the ro4 and the 500k Man all won by crushing lesser players MC. If that's not dominance what is It's not over though after being exposed as the fraud that he is by sOs in IEM World losing against the first kespa player he faced in three IEM he won his third IEM which was a bo7 showmatch between him and Rain as he was as Always the only Kespa player of the tourney. Before that he beat the usual pack of second/third tier Korean and snute His great achievement (and it is one) is ssl 3 in 2015 His only other meaningfull win was kespa cup 2015 he also got second in 2014 by being in the easy part of the bracket
As for the most win in proleague he also had the most loses he was the most field player in a team that wasn't in the finals By no mean hero is bad but he was never dominant soO has 6 gsl finals 4 in a row during a year and a half none outside his nerves bested him in gsl. i don't care of any other achievement he has. 6 gsl finals period
the actual main event of that Sao Paulo was pretty weak, but to get through the Korean and Asian qualifier was basically a weekender GSL. herO beat Terminator, Gumiho, Bravo, Sora, Maru, Dark, Dear. some of those names are ok, some are champions. for the Korean qualies.
On June 23 2019 18:53 Xain0n wrote: The anti-WoL bias is impressive.
Well not really the 3 best players in WoL are ofter ranked very high : MVP/taeja/you know who MMA as good as he was is clearly behind Maru
MC is by far the most over-rated player of all Time because he was the best at crushing lesser player. He won two gsl code S The first one he beated Odin who qualified twice for open Season 2 and 3 Lost in the opening round never to qualify again hyperdub a random terran whose greatest achievement is a top 16 in the first code S Julyzerg one of the best zerg at the time who fade away pretty quickly Marineking most likely the best terran at that Time Jinro foreign Monster and one of the best terran for a few months Rain in the finals who never made it past ro32 ever again
So to win a GSL MC had to beat three worthy opponents (even if the only really good one was mkp) the others where a bunch of low tier Scrubs who where there only because the game was so fresh
His second gsl he beat July and hyperdub again in bo1 (Monster feat) Byun who became good much later even if he made a ro4 latter in the year Hongun a random protoss who made some splash in the gsl in 2011 only to disapered as soon as the competition got better San not even gonna comment on the fact that you could face San in early 2011 to go to the finals July zerg again in the finals
In two GSL mc only had to beat one of the great of History
"But MC was so good outside of gsl" let see about that MLG : In 2011 when he was among the first Korean to be invited he went 3rd at Colombus and 2nd at Orlando 6th at providence everytime the script was the same beats a bunch of foreigners and some low tier koreans (plus mkp) wins against Idra loses against Huk Not Really worthy of one of the goat 2012 is way worse as more good Korean where able to travel mc never made it past 4th place 6 MLG and only two better results than ro8 IEM ? 2nd at Cologne losing to the only other Korean the great puma Won iem World by going 3-2 in groupe stage against a bunch of foreigners and somehow still toping the group then beating violet in ro8 the great Feast un semis and again puma in finals The next Season top 8 at Cologne getting 3-0 by nerchio then top 8 at Singapore getting 3-2 by grubby and didn't get out of group stage in IEM world being in a group with Yoda ret and first ... (Now kids remember of serral 5 wcs in a row)
NASL ? 2nd by beating boxer select and sen in NASL1 before losing to puma again in the final 3rd by beating puma and a bunch of foreigner in NASL3
TSL3 ? Top8 losing to Thorzain
Results before the region lock are meuh at best after the region. Lock he farmed the third division for 2 years and lost in first round at blizzcon twice
The fact the MC is rank above DRG for example is beyond me he was a good player with a loud fucking mouth who embarrassed players with cheesy plays. The only reason he won that much money is because he rack up many top8+ by being able to fly 3 times more then everybody else by being famous his "fun personality"
Edit :
On June 23 2019 23:38 Xain0n wrote:
On June 23 2019 22:05 Morbidius wrote:
On June 23 2019 18:53 Xain0n wrote: The anti-WoL bias is impressive.
No WCS region locked tournaments in WoL.
Oh, I know! You can't look at NASL S1 and tell me it was Puma taking down weak foreigners, because foreigners weren't that weak in 2011(Huk was in Code S reaching ro8 at the time) and there were strong korean players in the lineup(Puma beat Squirtle, July and MC on his way to the title).
The fact that they were 5 good foreigners in 2011 (idra huk Nani sen and jinro/Thorzain) didn't change the fact that the rest were terrible. Squirtle was so good in 2011 he never qualify for a single code S The offline part of nasl was filled with second tier Korean moon and Squirtle weren't code S player alive was barely at that time MC and July were the only strong code S player and puma was a strong Korean in his foreign kingdom that's even more region lock than 2014
Stephano, Dimaga, White Ra, Mana, Nerchio were not good enough in 2011? Also, from your analysis not only foreigner were "terrible", half of the koreans were.
Judging players in retrospective is a risky business(San and HongUn were legit at the time, for example), Sc2 in his first years was quite a different game than it later became and many pioneers were playing, yet they were the best players for their times: if MC took down July in Code S finals when the latter was the best Zerg, it counts as winning against the best Zerg even if he retained that title for mere months: I wouldn't say this is a worse feat than Zest taking down soO when he was the best Zerg in the world(despite soO's career being way longer and more relevant in comparison to July's).
You did not consider the fact Protoss were struggling in Korea in 2011; regarding his international success, MC surely travelled a lot but he was consistently good. During his era, he was the best Protoss in the world, even if now we can look down on his opponents since they didn't age well. Regardless of increased competition, he declined as a player after 2012.
Stephano became good late 2011 i don't really see what it has to do with nasl 1 actually in my eyes stephano became good at the same time as the competition became legit Dimaga and Mana both were around 50% against Korean in 2011 and were solid threats for foreigners (especially dimaga can't believe I forgot about him) but they didn't play that much against Korean (specially dimaga who only tourney was gsl vs the world) Whitera was 25% so no Nerchio only offline result against Korean was him getting 3-0 by puma in 2011
It's hard to classified foreigners as those who didn't play in gsl didn't face many Korean
San wasn't legit you Can Google artosis eating a Sword if he get pass group stage one or two good result doesn't make you a legit player same with hongun. At no point in 2011 julyzerg was considered better than neatea. There is no doubt that mc was the best protoss is 2011 but the point of seeing how well everyone did later on allow us to judge how great he was. Federer and Nadal are the best of all time in part because they played one against an other in final time after time if Federer dominated tennis as he did when his competition wasn't that good and then farmed atp 500 and never won another Grand slam as soon as Nadal arrived he wouldn't be the goat
Beating julyzerg in finals isn't the same as beating soO in ro4 (soO in final is another deal :'( )
You said there were only five good foreigners in 2011, that's not true; I agree it could be hard to rank those who didn't play much against koreans. San reached ro4 in Code S twice in 2011, HongUn ro8 and ro4 in 2010 plus ro4 in 2011 so I guess they could be viewed as legit played back in the days; around March 2011, July could easily be seen as better than NesTea. MC was much greater than any of the korean Protoss who were around when he was in his prime, you can't deny that: he was the face of the race itself and that happened in the dreaded GoMTvT era.
I get your point, but careers in Tennis have a much longer span than they do in Sc2; when Nadal/KeSpa arrived, MC was already descending unlike Federer who just was in his first phase of domination. The fact MC found minor success in HoTS actually adds something to his career, in my opinion.
Nope san made one ro4 of code S by showing how op the amulet was (so op that it was removed days after the final) and then beat whitera and dimaga in gsl vs the world to reach a second ro4 Okaish for hongun Don't rewrite history I dare you to find 2011 posts claiming that July was the best And your point about mc career being short is exactly mine hoz can he be one of the best when he was such for a very short time stats has been a beast for years and in a very competitive environment
Maybe there were more than 5 good foreigners doesn't matter as they didn't play against Koreans in tourney
Yea I remembered San going far in two consecutive GSL but one actually wasn't a Code S(I must have removed he was the one dispatching White Ra and Dimaga out of trauma xd); San was thought to be bad as Liquipedia makes us notice but he really wasn't.
Actually I remember July was held in great esteem at the time GSL vs The World happened but NesTea was considered the greatest Zerg by most of people; if we look at results, July was better in February-April as NesTea dropped out in the first turn in both Code S March and TSL3.
Many of the first pros in Sc2 were relatively old and/or worn out Rts veterans, no wonder most of them didn't last long; it's not specifically MC's case since he was born in 1991, but being the best of his race for almost two years and good enough to be relevant for another couple means he did not have a short career, in my opinion.
MC was really influential in how he played Protoss, in really refining tenets of how the race is played to this day, at a time where so much more of the game was being figured out.
Same with Nestea, he fell off way before even the Kesp switch, but he still laid a ton of groundwork for others to come.
I don’t think you really can compare MC and Stats the eras are that different. Does Stats so what MC did if they’re swapped around, or vice versa?
I mean we’re talking about introducing a bunch of full time mechanical monsters into a knowledge pool they didn’t build, which they definitely added to subsequently.
It’s a strategy game with a huge amount of mechanical demands, they’re both super important in making Starcraft what it is, I do feel in this thread the importance of developing strategies, especially in WoL is a bit underrated in the discussion.
I think recency does alot for Stats here (not that it is that wrong it just heps him i think). Basically this is best WOL toss vs best lotv toss and lotv is more in peoples head.
Other than that i just wanted to add that what also stood out for me is MC's ability to suddenly beat people at their game, when nobody expects it e.g. going toe to toe (even tho losing) with a pretty peakish herO at blizzcon 2014 (in coloss battles nontheless), or when Flash was at the height of his sc2! career at IEM Toronto (he was pretty damn good there). His first match was vs MC, who was considered far weaker by many, and then MC just went full macro in the first game, while going ht first (which was deemed not really viable at that time) and just showed what he was capable of there. So while i don't think it is wrong if Stats advances i voted MC (also being big fanboy probably helps :D).
Game vs Flash (srsly watch it if u don't know it):
Just like MMA vs DongRaeGu, Parting vs Flash was one of the great SC2 final that ramped up to an even greater final game. Up 3-1 against Flash in the final of the biggest HSC yet, Parting let the series slip through his finger as God tied the final. Game 7 started horribly for Parting, his proxy stargate got counter easily and he got sloppy trying the follow up contain. With his tournament life on the line, and the crowd more than ready to welcome the BW legend as their champion, Parting stay true to himself and went into full agression. It looked completely impossible for the Big Boy as an overwhelming bio ball was ready to roll on him, instead Parting showed once again that he passed perhaps the best micro in all of Starcraft history and perfectly isolated part of Flash army taking advantage of the low medivac count by forcing Flash to stim time and again. In the end he was able to completely turn the game around breaking the defense of Flash and finish a classic final.
Zest highlight: Zest vs soO GSL 2014 season 1, game 6 + Show Spoiler +
Zest penultimate game of his royal roader GSL championship was a turning point in Starcraft history. At the time soO wasn't considered a Kong, after his defeat at the hand of future bonwja Dear he was keen to proved he wasn't a fluke and up 3-2 he look to be on the giving end of a 4-2 defeat. The angry zerg took advantage of the cross position on the absurdly large Alterzim Stronghold and quickly completely overgrew a Zest that was unable to put on any dedicated pressure. 20 minutes in Zest at 160 supply was looking at a max out zerg with a 4500-2000 bank, but Zest stay calm and slowly chipped away at soO bank and army for 20 minutes until he was able to overcame soO on the wire after 40 minutes.
For a 3 time world champion, one of the greatest Proleague player and a 2 time GSL finalist a Kespa Cup final can seems a odd choice, yet his final vs MKP represent the best of sOs genius, an uncanny ability to make other player look like complete dumbass. MarineKing run late 2014 was suppose to be his redemption story, he overcame a complete bracket of protoss beating Stats-herO-Parting and Zest, it was one of the greatest tvp performance of all time. Instead MKP Kespa cup run will for ever be remember for the brutal, stupid, hilarious beating sOs served him. After a quick look at his replay sOs knew perfectly how to counter the terran ready opening and we could all observe the JinAir protoss killing him over and over with early push, crown by this game 3 where sOs make a zealot a stalker, run them all the way across the map and kill someone who played more than 100 000 game of Starcraft in his life. Add 10 more minutes of humiliation and MKP was looking like an absolute fraud that got lost on a Starcraft stage. It wasn't sOs greatest game, a kind of triumph without opposition, but it's my favorite of his humiliations, a list that include Maru, HerO, Jaedong, Solar and INnoVation.
A double pleasure to had ever more tvp to this half-week polls. Mvp last great GSL run and his pursuit of the G5L put him straight against Kespa greatest, at the time everyone was ready to bury the first era of SC2 has the elephant were already starting to put on strong results. Instead the greatest terran of WOL found the crack in Rain armor and broke him in standard macro games and proved that even with the injury he wasn't ready to put down his crown.
Guys I just realize this thing is actually gonna end soon. Also I'm currently balancing the pros and cons of posting the round of 8 going foward on reddit, be ready for the potential of a bunch of Serral trolling.
I'm guessing Zest/Mvp takes this round, but I definitely voted $O$. Mvp was the greatest of WoL, but I think enough time has passed and several other players have racked up enough championships that it's hard to justify calling him the GOAT anymore. sOs always seemed to have that magic touch when the stakes were at their highest - I still remember when he won that $100k winner-takes-all tournament and he's remained relevant in top level tournaments for many more years than Mvp.
EPT
MMA: 9 votes
Stats: 31 votes
DongRaeGu, Parting vs Flash was one of the great SC2 final that ramped up to an even greater final game.
