|
I wanted to discuss the importance of positions in determining the viability of choosing some strategies over others. I have not seen the topic discussed before on either these forums or Liquipedia. I want to clarify that I am not interested in discussing map balance because I know some maps favor particular builds and strategies.
Here are some scenarios that come to mind: For example we can imagine we use Fighting Spirit with its four starting positions for all cases below.
PvZ Sair-Reaver Whether it is better to use this when your opponent is adjacent to you or in cross positions?
PvT Carriers Whether it is better to use this when your opponent is adjacent to you or in cross positions?
Bio TvT Whether it is better to use this when your opponent is adjacent to you or in cross positions?
Bio TvP Whether it is better to use this when your opponent is adjacent to you or in cross positions?
Mech TvZ Whether it is better to use this when your opponent is adjacent to you or in cross positions?
Wraiths TvZ Whether it is better to use this when your opponent is adjacent to you or in cross positions?
Valks TvZ Whether it is better to use this when your opponent is adjacent to you or in cross positions?
Hydra-Lurker ZvT Whether it is better to use this when your opponent is adjacent to you or in cross positions?
Muta ZvP Whether it is better to use this when your opponent is adjacent to you or in cross positions?
Hydra-Guardian ZvT Whether it is better to use this when your opponent is adjacent to you or in cross positions?
|
This is interesting. I will try to answer to the best of my abilities but I main P so I will omit the matchups where P is missing. My knowledge and game sense with P is limited enough and I do not need to pollute the board with my utter ignorance about the other matchups. And this is strictly my opinion, not some universal truth, I might be totally off for everything and I would welcome anyone to refute me. I love being refuted and learning the truth about something or other.
On May 06 2019 02:21 Alpha-NP- wrote: PvZ Sair-Reaver Whether it is better to use this when your opponent is adjacent to you or in cross positions? For FS, I would say cross positions. Just because you can fly in easier from different sides. When you're adjacent, I think it's too easy to scout the close side as Z and then P has to clear the long way with sairs, then fly the shuttle there and it becomes slower than the cross positions. But then again, he can clear the close side and keep z in the dark, idk, I am all mixed up here.
On May 06 2019 02:21 Alpha-NP- wrote: PvT Carriers Whether it is better to use this when your opponent is adjacent to you or in cross positions? I would definitely say cross because the longer the T needs to reach the P natural, the better it becomes for the carrier P who often relies on too few ground forces and reavers to delay until carriers become a factor.
On May 06 2019 02:21 Alpha-NP- wrote: Bio TvP Whether it is better to use this when your opponent is adjacent to you or in cross positions? I would say close because the P has less time to react to the MnM who pack a punch for a while but if scouted early are fairly easy to kill for similar skill level players.
On May 06 2019 02:21 Alpha-NP- wrote: Muta ZvP Whether it is better to use this when your opponent is adjacent to you or in cross positions? I do not think it makes a huge difference in the current meta. We rarely see pure muta openings, Z always seems to add scourges to frighten the almost inevitable corsairs. But if Z decides to do pure muta, then I think closer is better as they reach the juicy probes in shorter time.
|
One scenario you didn't mention which comes to mind is mass Muta into Greater Spire ZvT, a style that MisO, Baxter, and Modesty have all been using frequently. Typically, Zerg opens with a 2 hatchery build, taking a third base around 23 supply. Zerg's game plan is significantly easier to execute if there exists a third base with gas which is close by air to their opponent's natural with ample air space providing a safe retreat area immune from marines. This is the case if Zerg is counter-clockwise from Terran on FS or in vertical positions on CB. The idea is that 2 hatchery pressure will keep the Terran buttoned up inside his base building turrets, using bio to defend, and waiting for Irradiate. Although the Zerg opts for a third base which is very close to the Terran, contrary to generally accepted theory, the Mutalisks harassing the Terran base will be nearby to deflect any bio pressure trying to sneak out onto the map. Any Mutalisks hatched from the third base will reinforce the Zerg army quickly, while drones can be morphed and transferred to the third from the other two bases. When Guardians are morphed, their long range enables them to quickly defend the Zerg's third base and immediately resume the attack on the Terran natural, all from the safety of the air space.
Assume Zerg is either horizontal or vertical to the Terran on FS, in a counter-clockwise direction. For Mutalisks to travel from the Terran's natural to the Zerg's third base takes only 8 seconds, and only 15 seconds to reach either their main or natural. If the Zerg were to take the far, cross position main base as a third base (as in a standard game), it now takes Mutalisks 26 seconds to reach the Zerg's third base from the Terran natural. So any Terran bio/vulture/drop pressure which requires the Zerg to respond with their Mutalisks buys the Terran about a minute of breathing room as opposed to 30 seconds or so, which is incredibly significant when direct Mutalisk harass is vital to keeping the Terran contained. In addition, the close third allows Guardians to serve a dual offensive/defensive role; their slow speed would otherwise rule out their use in responding to counterattacks. With no vulnerable Zerg expansions to attack, Terran is left without counterplay and is essentially checkmated on two bases.
|
Norway28255 Posts
It's hard to give generic cross position/ adjacent answers to these that 'generally apply' because most maps have peculiarities to them more significant than this - fighting spirit included.
For example pvz fighting spirit sair reaver (tbh fighting spirit is a pretty terrible map for this, but it illustrates the point anyway), it's not really that horizontal is better than vertical, it's that it's specifically much more viable if you are fighting 11 vs 1, 1 vs 5, 5 vs 7 or 7 vs 11 than the other way around. This because the way the protoss second naturals are positioned overlooking the zerg's natural base gives a really easy point of entry and zerg has a very hard time maintaining air superiority, which means they're kinda blind and unable to quickly respond. Compare to if p has to travel all the way from 5 to 12 to engage the zerg's natural and suddenly having some lings spread around on the map gives plenty of awareness.
Stuff like muta zvp kinda depends what type of opening. opening speedling into 2 h muta is better with shorter distance, but say for a mid game big committed scourge+muta attack vs a p feeling safe with his 7 sairs, it hardly matters.
|
I am happy with the responses I got, just I wish I had some gosu Terran input on whether positions effect any Terran builds or tech.
|
I am by no means a gosu Terran player (1900 max this season), but I can give you my views on the situations listed in the OP.
Bio TvT: Bio is not really viable in TvT, so you have to pull this off as a surprise. The closer you are, the easier it is to surprise your opponent, and they have less time to react.
Bio TvP: Same goes for bio TvP, which is also a pretty all-in thing. (Unless it's like a deep 6 vs. reaverless 2base carriers or something, but even then). So the closer you are, the better this is as well, same principles.
Mech TvZ: This is too broad of a question. There are a gazillion ways to play mech TvZ, and as Drone said, the specific features of the spawns play a big role. For example if you are close positions, an 8rax into 1-1-1, or 8 rax into factory cc with speed vultures and then goliaths will be super strong (but it matters a lot weather you can wall on a spawn or not). However if you want to do 12rax12gas factory expand mech, you will have more time to react to an early pool build if he is cross map, etc. If you are close positions, pushing out with +1 plating goliaths will probably hit him a little bit earlier, but his mutas will also arrive a little bit sooner, etc. It all depends on your respective playstyles and there are a lot of variables.
Wraiths TvZ: If it's one base 2port, I'd say the closer you are, the better, you need to do as much damage as early on as you can.
Valks TvZ: Do you mean the Fantasy build? 1-base vulture drop into valks? Or do you mean 14cc with a wall into bio with valks? Again, many variables, depends on the builds, map, etc.
|
|
|
|