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"I only like asymmetrical design when it benefits me"
Summed up 8 pages for everybody
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Imagine a chess-rule:
If white has 2 knights, bishop, rook, against Black king with 2 pawns at their starting positions, and its white's move and there are chance to force win and declare mate in x moves by white, the Black can move his King outside the board (even from under a check) to a black's own extra-board square -A-1 in which white cannot ever attack, and just wait there until white resigns, or black's two pawns are either taken or cannot make legal moves anymore, constituting draw-position.
That's roughly equivalent asymmetric rule that led to this occurrence of happenings in that SC2 game.
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Czech Republic12115 Posts
On March 21 2019 02:20 hg2g2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 01:47 deacon.frost wrote:On March 21 2019 00:21 hg2g2 wrote:On March 20 2019 22:53 deacon.frost wrote:On March 20 2019 22:48 Geo.Rion wrote:On March 20 2019 22:31 Argonauta wrote:On March 20 2019 20:46 Geo.Rion wrote:On March 20 2019 18:58 JustPassingBy wrote:On March 17 2019 16:27 Highrock1 wrote: I've always found Terran's ability to draw the game by floating away their buildings a very unsatisfying way for the game to end. I disagree, I find it very exciting to watch terran players suicide all their units to destroy key units and infrastructure of their opponents to draw the game. On March 17 2019 16:27 Highrock1 wrote: And one that is without parallel for the other races. Yes, we have three races in starcraft which are distinctly different. Zerg can end games by slowly grinding you down with swarms of free units. Protoss can end games with massive amounts of instant splash damage. It creates interesting dynamics. 1. That is a perfectly fine opinion to have, different people find things interesting/annoying, it's really pointless to argue that aspect, if Blizz/ someone is interested of the general opinion, a poll could be done. 2. Races are different, yes, for the hundredth time, yes. Races have different racial mechanics. The game is asymmetrically balanced, and it was always intended that way, Yes. Nobody is arguing this, or saying we need to go back to warcfraft 1 game design. I dont understand why is it so hard to grasp, that this particular instance is an exception, and the other races lack anything comparable to it. Zerg doesnt have free units. Infestors spawn units with energy, just like all the other casters. BL's and swarmhosts spawn short-lived units, they arent free, they're the method with which those units attack. There is plenty of inbuilt weaknesses if you rely on those units. Swarhmhosts/BLs cant attack or cast spells, they just spawn locusts/broodlings, which you define as "free". No, if a swarmhost manages to launch a single volley before it dies, than that locust cost exactly as much as a full swarmhost. If you manage to launch several, or even dozens it means you were very cost efficient, as the locusts cost a fraction of it. It's not that different compared to a siege tank that manages to shoot dozens of times during the course of the game. Sure it is not the same thing, but it's comparable. Terrans can repair everything. Protoss regenerates or can even fill up shields, but not effective HP. Zergs regenerate freely to full HP, but they do it very slowly. Only Zerg has burrowed (cloacked) units that can deal AOE. Terran is the only one that has ranged air units with cloak. Protoss is the only race with perma-cloacked units that can move around freely. Some of these are or can be stronger than their racial counterparts, that's not really important. There are tons of race-specific tricks that dont have 1-1 exact matches. But they have something similar, and they all fit the RTS theme of being used either for offense, defense, crowd control (or economy). The " when behind, playing to draw" strategy doesnt really fit into this, and more importantly only one race can do it. Again, whether you enjoy watching this or not, is subjective, i believe majority of the community doesnt, but it's hard to tell without hard data. The problem isnt even the fact that terran is favored in a base-race situation due to racial mechanics. This is (mostly) fine. Two opponents could overrun each other's bases, and Terran comes out ahead because he floats away his CCs and production buildings, the other race has to turn around eventually and make sure to confront the terran army before losing every building, while Terran enjoys a strategic advantage due to being able to defend a new position after the dust settles, even if he was left without any money or workers. It is theoretically possible that both parties are left with 0 workers and 0-49 minerals, and either no armies or very similar strength armies. In this case, the Terran automatically wins, as long as he could float away one CC, because even with 0 minerals, 0 workers, you can build up a new eco using energy for mules. This is a race-specific advantage (that is balanced out by the strengths of the other racial mechanics like injects or Chronoboost/recall) to change this aspect, the game would need to be drastically altered, the racial mechanic completely redesigned and re-balanced. One of the main reasons why Terrans dont draw more games is, that they can flat out win those hectic base-race scenarios, if they start out on even grounds. Nobody was arguing for nerfing the mules or the general relocation ability of terran, in this specific thread, as far as i could tell. Conclusion> If the specific racial strength of the race helps it to win in a certain scenarios that is fine, as the other races also have comparable/similar racial strength helping them win in different ways. One race having the ability to force draws while the others dont is not fine (even if it is 0.x% of the games), especially because it would be so easy to do a clean fix, without having any unintended side-effects, or impacting the balance of the matchups. Well the are called free units because you cant treat them as a unit attack as they have HP. A tank shot do not have HP. That being said, I like free units. They are a cool way to make zerg different and they are balanced If locusts are "free-units" then Swarmhosts are the most useless units in the history of RTS since they cant attack or cast spells yet cost a lot of money and can be killed rather easily. For me, it only makes sense to think of swarmhosts together with the locust, since one cannot exist without the other. And because one of them costs money, the other isnt free either, cuz the cost is priced into the host. I just find it really strange to think of locusts/broodling as free, without taking into consideration that it is made by another unit which costs money, requires tech and can be killed. It's like saying that ghosts can cast spells for free, because energy doesnt cost minerals/gas. There's not price tag on locusts. First wave costs the price of the SH and then? With every wave you're lowering the price of the wave, in the end they become free. At the same time literally everything else(except brood lings ) costs energy OR material. From the SC2 perspective locusts are free as they don't cost energy or material. Just giving my view, but how that's gonna solve draws with Terrans in the air I mean, bullets/missiles aren't free, everything has unlimited ammunition in this game, only Protoss has to pay for Interceptors! I literally just thought of this, totally unplayable You don't have to kill bullets/missiles to get to the unit launching them FFS, body blocking is a thing in this game, have you like ever tried walking under broodlords?!! Stop saying nonsense, remove their hp, make them bullets, it's fine. Edit> also changeling, infested marine, the turret of RAven... ONLY PROTOSS... do you even play this game? Edit 2> MULE One: the statement "Totally Unplayable" is a pretty common comic meme meant to exaggerate there being something wrong with a game based on the completely necessary oversimplification of reality gaming requires. Two: them being units and having unit interactions is separate from them being free and a different balance conversation altogether. You don't actually have a problem with them being free. People get under brood lords all the time, and that's when they die. Three: None of your bloody examples require MINERALS to make from the unit making them. I am not the one here who clearly lacks both an understanding of the game and critical reading comprehension skills. I wrote that these type of units cost energy or resources. Not that they cost only resources. Not getting why you attacking ME who wrote energy or resources for not costing minerals. And energy is resource too, if I spend 50 energy for a scan I don\t have a MULE. They have unit interaction while being free.
I skip memes because fuck memes.
What has this in common with stalemate wasn't still answered to me, but hey, why not. So please, read my posts fully, not just the parts you like. At least if you respond to me
On March 21 2019 21:53 UnLarva wrote: Imagine a chess-rule:
If white has 2 knights, bishop, rook, against Black king with 2 pawns at their starting positions, and its white's move and there are chance to force win and declare mate in x moves by white, the Black can move his King outside the board (even from under a check) to a black's own extra-board square -A-1 in which white cannot ever attack, and just wait there until white resigns, or black's two pawns are either taken or cannot make legal moves anymore, constituting draw-position.
That's roughly equivalent asymmetric rule that led to this occurrence of happenings in that SC2 game. The last time I checked chess isn't an asymetrically balanced game while SC2 is. Flying buildsing are fine, fix the airspace. That will affect invincible drops and air units at the same time, which would be more beneficial IMO.
Imagine a chessboard with place where only SOME pieces can(let's say queens and kings) and imagine you don't have a queen and the enemy is hiding a queen and king there. That's the situation we have right now. Unaccessible place is the core reason and not just for stalemates(at least I get more pissed at immortal warp prisms/oracles/medevacs behind my mineral line, because they require air units to be safe... especially the WP)
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I really like the fuel idea. Make float a ability with a timer that get's resetted when landing (because advanced terran technology can build fuel out of air and rock).
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On March 21 2019 21:53 UnLarva wrote: Imagine a chess-rule:
If white has 2 knights, bishop, rook, against Black king with 2 pawns at their starting positions, and its white's move and there are chance to force win and declare mate in x moves by white, the Black can move his King outside the board (even from under a check) to a black's own extra-board square -A-1 in which white cannot ever attack, and just wait there until white resigns, or black's two pawns are either taken or cannot make legal moves anymore, constituting draw-position.
That's roughly equivalent asymmetric rule that led to this occurrence of happenings in that SC2 game.
This analogy is mind-bogglingly terrible. I don't even know where one should begin in trying to deconstruct this.
Do I mention that chess is a symmetrical game?
How about that you mention a forced mate in the chess example, when any 'forced mate' against a Terran would, ya know, include air superiority to kill floating buildings?
Also, annoying draws literally exist in Chess. You can have 8 Queens against a bare King and still draw.
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Please give terran's buildings auto regeneration and shield, just to be fair !
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On March 21 2019 22:50 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 02:20 hg2g2 wrote:On March 21 2019 01:47 deacon.frost wrote:On March 21 2019 00:21 hg2g2 wrote:On March 20 2019 22:53 deacon.frost wrote:On March 20 2019 22:48 Geo.Rion wrote:On March 20 2019 22:31 Argonauta wrote:On March 20 2019 20:46 Geo.Rion wrote:On March 20 2019 18:58 JustPassingBy wrote:On March 17 2019 16:27 Highrock1 wrote: I've always found Terran's ability to draw the game by floating away their buildings a very unsatisfying way for the game to end. I disagree, I find it very exciting to watch terran players suicide all their units to destroy key units and infrastructure of their opponents to draw the game. On March 17 2019 16:27 Highrock1 wrote: And one that is without parallel for the other races. Yes, we have three races in starcraft which are distinctly different. Zerg can end games by slowly grinding you down with swarms of free units. Protoss can end games with massive amounts of instant splash damage. It creates interesting dynamics. 1. That is a perfectly fine opinion to have, different people find things interesting/annoying, it's really pointless to argue that aspect, if Blizz/ someone is interested of the general opinion, a poll could be done. 2. Races are different, yes, for the hundredth time, yes. Races have different racial mechanics. The game is asymmetrically balanced, and it was always intended that way, Yes. Nobody is arguing this, or saying we need to go back to warcfraft 1 game design. I dont understand why is it so hard to grasp, that this particular instance is an exception, and the other races lack anything comparable to it. Zerg doesnt have free units. Infestors spawn units with energy, just like all the other casters. BL's and swarmhosts spawn short-lived units, they arent free, they're the method with which those units attack. There is plenty of inbuilt weaknesses if you rely on those units. Swarhmhosts/BLs cant attack or cast spells, they just spawn locusts/broodlings, which you define as "free". No, if a swarmhost manages to launch a single volley before it dies, than that locust cost exactly as much as a full swarmhost. If you manage to launch several, or even dozens it means you were very cost efficient, as the locusts cost a fraction of it. It's not that different compared to a siege tank that manages to shoot dozens of times during the course of the game. Sure it is not the same thing, but it's comparable. Terrans can repair everything. Protoss regenerates or can even fill up shields, but not effective HP. Zergs regenerate freely to full HP, but they do it very slowly. Only Zerg has burrowed (cloacked) units that can deal AOE. Terran is the only one that has ranged air units with cloak. Protoss is the only race with perma-cloacked units that can move around freely. Some of these are or can be stronger than their racial counterparts, that's not really important. There are tons of race-specific tricks that dont have 1-1 exact matches. But they have something similar, and they all fit the RTS theme of being used either for offense, defense, crowd control (or economy). The " when behind, playing to draw" strategy doesnt really fit into this, and more importantly only one race can do it. Again, whether you enjoy watching this or not, is subjective, i believe majority of the community doesnt, but it's hard to tell without hard data. The problem isnt even the fact that terran is favored in a base-race situation due to racial mechanics. This is (mostly) fine. Two opponents could overrun each other's bases, and Terran comes out ahead because he floats away his CCs and production buildings, the other race has to turn around eventually and make sure to confront the terran army before losing every building, while Terran enjoys a strategic advantage due to being able to defend a new position after the dust settles, even if he was left without any money or workers. It is theoretically possible that both parties are left with 0 workers and 0-49 minerals, and either no armies or very similar strength armies. In this case, the Terran automatically wins, as long as he could float away one CC, because even with 0 minerals, 0 workers, you can build up a new eco using energy for mules. This is a race-specific advantage (that is balanced out by the strengths of the other racial mechanics like injects or Chronoboost/recall) to change this aspect, the game would need to be drastically altered, the racial mechanic completely redesigned and re-balanced. One of the main reasons why Terrans dont draw more games is, that they can flat out win those hectic base-race scenarios, if they start out on even grounds. Nobody was arguing for nerfing the mules or the general relocation ability of terran, in this specific thread, as far as i could tell. Conclusion> If the specific racial strength of the race helps it to win in a certain scenarios that is fine, as the other races also have comparable/similar racial strength helping them win in different ways. One race having the ability to force draws while the others dont is not fine (even if it is 0.x% of the games), especially because it would be so easy to do a clean fix, without having any unintended side-effects, or impacting the balance of the matchups. Well the are called free units because you cant treat them as a unit attack as they have HP. A tank shot do not have HP. That being said, I like free units. They are a cool way to make zerg different and they are balanced If locusts are "free-units" then Swarmhosts are the most useless units in the history of RTS since they cant attack or cast spells yet cost a lot of money and can be killed rather easily. For me, it only makes sense to think of swarmhosts together with the locust, since one cannot exist without the other. And because one of them costs money, the other isnt free either, cuz the cost is priced into the host. I just find it really strange to think of locusts/broodling as free, without taking into consideration that it is made by another unit which costs money, requires tech and can be killed. It's like saying that ghosts can cast spells for free, because energy doesnt cost minerals/gas. There's not price tag on locusts. First wave costs the price of the SH and then? With every wave you're lowering the price of the wave, in the end they become free. At the same time literally everything else(except brood lings ) costs energy OR material. From the SC2 perspective locusts are free as they don't cost energy or material. Just giving my view, but how that's gonna solve draws with Terrans in the air I mean, bullets/missiles aren't free, everything has unlimited ammunition in this game, only Protoss has to pay for Interceptors! I literally just thought of this, totally unplayable You don't have to kill bullets/missiles to get to the unit launching them FFS, body blocking is a thing in this game, have you like ever tried walking under broodlords?!! Stop saying nonsense, remove their hp, make them bullets, it's fine. Edit> also changeling, infested marine, the turret of RAven... ONLY PROTOSS... do you even play this game? Edit 2> MULE One: the statement "Totally Unplayable" is a pretty common comic meme meant to exaggerate there being something wrong with a game based on the completely necessary oversimplification of reality gaming requires. Two: them being units and having unit interactions is separate from them being free and a different balance conversation altogether. You don't actually have a problem with them being free. People get under brood lords all the time, and that's when they die. Three: None of your bloody examples require MINERALS to make from the unit making them. I am not the one here who clearly lacks both an understanding of the game and critical reading comprehension skills. I wrote that these type of units cost energy or resources. Not that they cost only resources. Not getting why you attacking ME who wrote energy or resources for not costing minerals. And energy is resource too, if I spend 50 energy for a scan I don\t have a MULE. They have unit interaction while being free. I skip memes because fuck memes. What has this in common with stalemate wasn't still answered to me, but hey, why not. So please, read my posts fully, not just the parts you like. At least if you respond to me Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 21:53 UnLarva wrote: Imagine a chess-rule:
If white has 2 knights, bishop, rook, against Black king with 2 pawns at their starting positions, and its white's move and there are chance to force win and declare mate in x moves by white, the Black can move his King outside the board (even from under a check) to a black's own extra-board square -A-1 in which white cannot ever attack, and just wait there until white resigns, or black's two pawns are either taken or cannot make legal moves anymore, constituting draw-position.
That's roughly equivalent asymmetric rule that led to this occurrence of happenings in that SC2 game. The last time I checked chess isn't an asymetrically balanced game while SC2 is. Flying buildsing are fine, fix the airspace. That will affect invincible drops and air units at the same time, which would be more beneficial IMO. Imagine a chessboard with place where only SOME pieces can(let's say queens and kings) and imagine you don't have a queen and the enemy is hiding a queen and king there. That's the situation we have right now. Unaccessible place is the core reason and not just for stalemates(at least I get more pissed at immortal warp prisms/oracles/medevacs behind my mineral line, because they require air units to be safe... especially the WP)
Keep moving your goalposts all you want, things that only use energy have historically been referred to as free in all Starcraft 2 balance discussions, particularly in the Infestor era and when Ravens could flood the map (auto-turrets have unit interaction too). Interceptors are the only thing that require the expenditure of Minerals in order to even operate after having been built, to say that everything else costs minerals in regards to units in this context is a complete lie, so even if I missed what you said, it's because it was wrong.
Edit: Also, the idea that free units or anything on a timer are unfair compared to requiring energy were shut down by anyone rational enough to know that it's the same thing, a timer is no different than having to wait to have enough energy to use the ability, you could make SHs and BLs energy based if you want and achieve exactly the same thing.
None of the balance discussion bullshit people have been bringing up to apparently counter this draw mechanic has anything to do with it, which is entirely the problem, because you all keep bringing them up like they win your argument against the OP.
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On March 22 2019 02:28 DieuCure wrote: Please give terran's buildings auto regeneration and shield, just to be fair !
Then lets give Protoss and Zerg buildings the ability to fly too, to be fair.
Or let Zerg burrow all their buildings in the event they think they might lose to someone who can't detect anymore.
Or let Protoss cloak all their buildings indiscriminately when they're worried they can't win the game anymore.
That would be fair.
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On March 22 2019 02:51 hg2g2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2019 02:28 DieuCure wrote: Please give terran's buildings auto regeneration and shield, just to be fair ! Then lets give Protoss and Zerg buildings the ability to fly too, to be fair. Or let Zerg burrow all their buildings in the event they think they might lose to someone who can't detect anymore. Or let Protoss cloak all their buildings indiscriminately when they're worried they can't win the game anymore. That would be fair.
His post was in reference to people calling for the removal of Terran's ability to lift, so your post makes no sense. He was already calling attention to the absurdity of these sorts of complaints.
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Simplest fix, IMO, would be to make floating buildings stop counting towards the win condition after a short timer (maybe 1 minute?). No impact on standard games, Terran still gets an advantage in base trades being able to reposition key structures, but they lose the "opponent has no flying units" trump card. The timer is mainly so gold base strategies are still possible, and accidentally lifting your CC right away isn't an auto-loss.
Base trades are some of the most interesting games, but I think both Zergs and Protoss are reluctant to get into a base trade with a Terran because of the stalemate thing. Take that away and I think you'd actually end up with more base trade games, and base trades get more intense since a draw becomes dramatically less likely.
You might also have to apply the same logic to uprooted Spore/Spine Crawlers, but that's much less of an issue. But I do think base trades would get more interesting when all 3 races have to defend an immobile position.
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