EPTMy opponent plays BW with a custom-made gaming chair, with a razer mouse and a mechanical keyboard.
Am I at disadvantage? Maybe, but it's irrelevant. Same as hotkeys.
rebinding hotkeys in broodwar - Page 3
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Apoteosis
Chile820 Posts
My opponent plays BW with a custom-made gaming chair, with a razer mouse and a mechanical keyboard. Am I at disadvantage? Maybe, but it's irrelevant. Same as hotkeys. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On May 29 2017 23:13 IntoTheWow wrote: Changing hotkeys is going to change the game by definition, but I think most people are blowing this out of proportion. I don't give hotkey setup any more importance than monitor choice, mouse, keyboards with macro keys, chair comfortableness, etc. Are we defining the setup people can play in too? Cause I feel just as uneasy if somebody changes my mouse sensibility or my monitor position, than if someone changes some of my hotkeys. Up to this point, lots of people on iccup played with custom hotkeys, keyboards with F keys in different positions and so on. I never felt cheated because of that. I know people who played with the spanish version of BW which has different hotkeys. Is that cheating? I never saw anyone analyze hotkey for other languages, probably because they don't affect that game that much, or people don't care. What sets the game apart is not what hotkeys you press, but the muscle memory and the training to get it done over and over without giving it a thought. All these arguments feel to me as if people are angry they had to do with dumb hotkeys, are too committed on those to learn new ones, and don't want other people setting up comfortable hotkeys. TBH, I feel at the level the 95% of us could accomplish, it doesn't change much. If you ever do, and compete at a high level (like WCG was at the time, not sure if there's anything for foreigners right now), the tournament itself could enforce certain setups or "default hotkeys". I still think the impact of adding this is minimal, and you are alienating lots of people from discovering the game by having such a strict definition of "changing the game". I think widescreen support will have a much bigger impact and no one seems mad about that. Also, just to bring another fact into the discussion: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/110736-are-custom-hotkeys-legal-on-iccup#8 pretty much this. I don't think the game will change much as anticipated and this change is quite welcoming and needed to bring in new players. | ||
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FFGenerations
7088 Posts
i'm a big proponent of quickcast in dota, and i have seen times that normal-casters have messed up where quickcasters would have succeeded. at the end of the day, it's no more a bigger deal than any other misclick or mis-micro, out of thousands of misclicks or mis-micros. i do wonder if one race will benefit far more than another from easier hotkeys, and without a doubt i think it's something we should keep an eye on. ultimately, i don't want to play a game that doesn't have customisable hotkeys. i think non-customisable hotkeys is retarded. so, if it is one day deemed that gameplay balance tweaks need to be made to permit them then i would be open to that | ||
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
and again, i don't consider attracting new players to be a compromise for changing core mechanics. i think that most people are undervaluing the additional speed and accuracy that you'll get with a core hotkey setup in broodwar (again, which is exactly why blizzard isn't allowing people to change fkeys or control group keys). why then are they drawing the distinction at unit producing keys or attack/patrol (although i have heard conflicting reports on that, some people say that attack/patrol/hold position won't be changeable for the balance consideration reasons). I feel if some keys are considered too important to be changed, then none of them should be allowed to be changed. like.... then someone could say "well.. you can move ultralisk because you generally make less on average than overlords but overlords have to stay at 'o' because they're important over there and have a material impact of balance." and yes people have been doing it on iccup, and i think it's scummy to do it there too. i consider it on the same level as maphacking tbh, because there it's certainly providing you with an in-game benefit that i need a third party program to gain. | ||
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AbouSV
Germany1278 Posts
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lestye
United States4133 Posts
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Glioburd
France1910 Posts
I kind of know what you mean, I'm a BW player myself who doesn't want any change in the game. But this? Who cares? It won't change anything. Being used to press E instead of O takes one week. I press O, P or M without even thinking about it, and I'm bad. When I suck with my macro, it's not because I've to press one key instead of an other. It is because my multitask isn't good enough. Yeah pressing A for marines is comfortable, but it won't make you win against a player who is used to crush you. Hotkey binding is only positive : it will bring more new players. BW veterans won't change their hotkeys. | ||
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
On May 30 2017 17:35 AbouSV wrote: It has been reported again a few post above yours that remapping was allowed in WCGs. im not talking about WCGs, i'm talking about OSL etc, korean tournies On May 30 2017 17:44 lestye wrote: Ultimately, I think even if you believe that this might affect gameplay, it's a reasonable concession to make for the health of the game's population. I don't think it's worth denouncing it. I certainly won't, and probably wouldn't unless an important from the scene says its legitimately detrimental. it's fine if you think differently and don't care about hotkeys, but it's incredibly unhealthy if only "important people from the scene" can have an actual impact on the game given how many "important people from the scene" are on blizzard's payroll in one form or another (who are incentived by the game making as much money as possible, not by the game being as good as possible) On May 30 2017 18:50 Glioburd wrote: So what about my friends who play with the french version and have to press S for probe or S for overlords ? What about me who play with a non-qwerty keyboard and have to press Q for attack or ; for marines ? You are pretending that the english hotkeys on a qwerty layout are the core of the game. No, like you said, it's really not a huge deal. I kind of know what you mean, I'm a BW player myself who doesn't want any change in the game. But this? Who cares? It won't change anything. Being used to press E instead of O takes one week. I press O, P or M without even thinking about it, and I'm bad. When I suck with my macro, it's not because I've to press one key instead of an other. It is because my multitask isn't good enough. Yeah pressing A for marines is comfortable, but it won't make you win against a player who is used to crush you. Hotkey binding is only positive : it will bring more new players. BW veterans won't change their hotkeys. well, we all learn and fail in different ways. like i said i have been playing for a long ass time and i still can't hit 'o' 99 out of 100 times in a live game. for me, it would be a huge benefit to get free overlords. what's your opinion on blizzard not letting people change the F keys/ctrl keys then?? | ||
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Glioburd
France1910 Posts
On May 30 2017 20:02 Endymion wrote: well, we all learn and fail in different ways. like i said i have been playing for a long ass time and i still can't hit 'o' 99 out of 100 times in a live game. for me, it would be a huge benefit to get free overlords Then hotkeys binding should be a good feature for you, Isn't it ? There are key binding for most of the competitive games. Quake III, Counter Strike, Fighting games... even War III. Shortkeys aren't supposed to be a handicap, they're supposed to help you to do an action faster than doing it with your mouse. On May 30 2017 20:02 Endymion wrote: What's your opinion on blizzard not letting people change the F keys/ctrl keys then?? Well, personally, since I won't change my key bindings , I don't really care. But in principle, yes, they should allow people to modify those too. But with the exception of the cameras, those shortkeys are universal for every RTS game, in every language. I'm pretty sure no one would change those ones. | ||
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FiveHundred
109 Posts
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lestye
United States4133 Posts
On May 30 2017 20:02 Endymion wrote: it's fine if you think differently and don't care about hotkeys, but it's incredibly unhealthy if only "important people from the scene" can have an actual impact on the game given how many "important people from the scene" are on blizzard's payroll in one form or another (who are incentived by the game making as much money as possible, not by the game being as good as possible) They're also competitors that would have the most to lose as they would allegedly be the ones put at a loss with these changes. I think that's far more reasonable than armchair tacticians who don't really have a stake in the scene and are just be contrarian for the sake of being contrarian. | ||
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Th1rdEye
United States1074 Posts
Blizz would undoubtedly and irreversibly change the game play of Brood War altogether if they let us change hotkeys. I don't remember Bisu bitching about having to hit "P" for probe when he smashed other pros in the past, and I doubt that Flash would openly state that he double clicked "O" on his siege tanks and it cost him a game, because they both understand the nature of the beast they are taking head on. It's part of the game...People just want things to be easy and instantaneous. | ||
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SkrollK
France580 Posts
On May 31 2017 02:12 Th1rdEye wrote: I agree with your standpoint on the subject. Blizz would undoubtedly and irreversibly change the game play of Brood War altogether if they let us change hotkeys. I don't remember Bisu bitching about having to hit "P" for probe when he smashed other pros in the past, and I doubt that Flash would openly state that he double clicked "O" on his siege tanks and it cost him a game, because they both understand the nature of the beast they are taking head on. It's part of the game...People just want things to be easy and instantaneous. Lmfao that's so stupid ^^ Then why are you using hotkeys ? You arent a true gosu then... True gosu dont want things to be easy and instantaneous... So they use mouse only man.. Do you use mouse only ? So you're no gosu sorry. ........ Like for real ? Is this your argument ? "Players that want rebindable hotkeys are lazy arrivists people that want to be as good as me in 2 min even Tho they arent able to press m or o correctly..." I understand some of the anti rebindable when they Say that balance should be monitored (winrates at least) after they patch it definitively so that we are sure it wont give any unfair advantage to one RACE. But given unfair advantage to a player ? Thats laughable. | ||
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Th1rdEye
United States1074 Posts
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evilEye_
United States91 Posts
So let me break it down for all the dummies in the world (I'm sure a warn or ban is incoming but enough is enough already): 1. Endy (the guy who wrote this article) is 100% correct and spot-on. Though it is a VERY minor blip or inconsistency, it's been these same VERY minor blips that have been an integral part of this game. For the first 30 seconds of any game I can keep up macro with Flash; easy. After that, though? Not so much. That is because these small nuances and mistakes grow exponentially throughout the course of the game. Adding in all the other components, snowballs into something NOT so minor. This is basically what Endy is saying (correct me if I'm wrong). These small inconsistincies and quirks about BW are EXACTLY what make it the best game ever; period. And YES they do matter....EVERYTHING in BW matters. Just some things matter more than others. So Endy is 100% correct in saying that this will impact the game. Maybe it won't show up in the stats but, as anyone who watches sports knows, some of the better players don't do well on the statsheet but do many small "intangible" things well enough to help their team. This is kind of one of those things. If you disagree then there's 2 logical explanations: you either don't play this game much to know this or you're just a complete imbecile. 2. Idv....you are a super dumbass. I don't think anything else needs to be said other than you might possibly have a negative IQ. Furthermore, who are you to call anyone out about their "apm" or "skill"? I am pretty sure you are garbage. No one who is good would of said what you said; bottom line. Please go back to SC2. 3. They touched the graphics (great!), even though it's still choppy on BNet right now. For the most part, they didn't touch the gameplay, which is amazing. But rebinding hotkeys is a bad move. People used to complain about BW being hard, so they made SC2...which is basically BW remastered, as an expansion pack (meaning different but comparable units and names for them), and with a built-in Hack. That's right. You can automine, autogather, autosend workers to mine, you see the fog of war of the map so easily that you don't end up wasting time or energy to focus on why your probe is stuck in the top corner of your base (which would impact a normal BW player....but not anymore!). You can select many units and do many things automatically. This keybinding is the FIRST step in that direction....but obviously SC2 is garbage (if u think otherwise then ur probably an idiot, too) and these are just some of the reasons why it has failed. Bottom line- BW is THE best game ever and THE most balanced game ever, as is. I dare anyone to prove me wrong. But alas, as much as I absolutely LOVE this game, I hate a lot of the ppl on here. In this case Endy made a GREAT point and guess what? HE'S FUCKIN RIGHT! But people are jumping on him like "oh it won't affect anything". I bet those people are the same ones who lied to themselves about using maphacks isn't the reason why they started winning more...yea keep tellin yourself that...idiots. This game is PERFECT even though it's not. It's imperfectly perfect. Stop fuckin around with it just so 10 year olds will want to play it. If they can't even take the time to learn what fuckin key to press then they shouldn't be playing at all. On a side note, I remember either Warcraft or Diablo or one of those failure games had "A W E D S" or some combination of those keys as the ARROWS. The fuckin arrows can you imagine? How dumb to move using keys like that. But, I didn't agree that they should rebind. I just agreed the game was made poorly and didn't play it anymore....instead I went back to the only real game out there, Brood War. So fuck you for trying to fuck up the game I love simply because you are either dumb as rocks, or lazy, or used to failure games like SC2, or you plain suck (or even worse, you might actually be really good and just a whiner and a crybaby, which is happening a lot on here recently). You are probably one of those people who thinks Scan shouldn't be allowed to play because he's too good. If ANY of what I've said above applies to you or has offended you....then GREAT! That means I WAS talking to/about you. And if so, you should proceed to either stop playing this game or go play in traffic or simply shut the fuck up and stop being a whiny lil pussy bitch. Peace and love  User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Chris_Havoc
United States589 Posts
If the meta changes because of hotkeys, that's OK. If it doesn't, that's OK too. Players will adapt either way. If the Korean tournaments ban custom hotkeys that's fine. If not, that's fine too. However I do think that tournaments will likely allow custom hotkeys purely on the basis that it doesn't make much sense to have different hotkey setups for home/ladder play vs. tournament play. Also, will I think anything less of players that use custom hotkeys vs. ones that do not? No I will not. I'm grateful that both Brood War has made a comeback and that Remastered is actually happening and I have faith in Blizzard's Classic team to do the right thing in the long run. In the end, whatever happens, happens. I'll continue watch and play Brood War for many more years to come. | ||
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
On May 31 2017 00:00 lestye wrote: They're also competitors that would have the most to lose as they would allegedly be the ones put at a loss with these changes. I think that's far more reasonable than armchair tacticians who don't really have a stake in the scene and are just be contrarian for the sake of being contrarian. i mean i'm not going to quote my rank at you or be like "i've beat so and so and i practice with so and so" because it should be irrelevant to reinforcing the logic that i have stated in the op. i'm just glad that my playing since release, which i stated in the op, doesn't mean that i have an "active stake in the scene." in fact, even if you want to look at it like that, i'm sure you could look at the opportunity cost of a lot of foreigners/amateurs (as well as pros like jd/bisu/flash/savior/july alike) and each player would have lost a lot more in a fiscal sense from just putting time into the game than their actual winnings. so yeah, measuring a player's "stake" in the state of the game by how much money they make off of it is pretty insulting... edit~ you didn't expressly mention money, but that's how most figureheads are measured (thinking of people like day9/tasteless/artosis's successes). there are other foreigner figureheads like scan or... maybe some of the casters? that don't make money, but the point still stands in fact, i expressly don't play on iccup or with many foreigners because i vastly prefer the korean attitude when it comes to the scene and the game itself. Additionally, i obviously don't play the tournies that you watch. i just play games with clans etc. i'm not saying to this to say "heh i'm so much better than you," i'm saying this because there are large scenes that don't directly include mainstream foreigners and KESPA level foreigner-facing tournies, so only listening to figureheads of your specific community is pretty hurtful. i'm not even suggesting that a d- player doesn't have a voice, but they need to explain and vet their logic instead of (traditionally) bitching about balance and "archaic mechanics," while pretending to care about the longevity of the scene that they just entered. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
But there's lots of little tricks experienced players know that you can play SC for years and never realise. Shift click, turning off mouse acceleration (which basically makes your arms hurt like hell at even 60-80 apm), hold lurkers, burrow lurks by putting them at the beginning of control groups, position your buildings in really easy ways to macro, use location keys to rerally buildings, click 'unload' on the dropship to make it unload while moving, patrol or hold position works by selecting them with another unit, shift click through nydus, shift click from liftoff building, clone by shift clicking wireframes, add units to a group with shift, use patrol to execute a slightly different kind of attack, ctrl click to select units... I can name a hundred more, and none of them are particularly obvious or discoverable until you watch someone else do them or you read about them in a guide. Like I think I'm one of the few people who used shift attack click for microing units perfectly, something I picked up from tsunami's ancient guide. If you don't know all that stuff, your arms just hurt when you play. And that's okay when you're playing other 40apm people, but it makes 200apm seem totally mysterious and superhuman, when a lot of it is just missing information. Imagine mac users who can't easily disable mouse acceleration not knowing every window's user has it off and has to move their arm way less. It's bonkers. That's why SC became this kind of subculture of gamers, anyone who stuck with it just kept learning little trick after little trick, until we can't even remember what it was like not to know them. And then we have the nerve to make the first thing we tell any new player 'you can stack muta if you group them with an overlord or other far away unit' like there aren't 50 much more important things to know just to execute a build without your arms hurting. So it's like... I liked learning all these tricks, but I'm not really against doing a couple of things that induce less incidents of carpal tunnel syndrome that are more obvious to new players. Letting you change the hotkeys is one of those things. Also I'm tired of hitting n when I mean to hit m to build marines ;o Then again, it's an old game, and I'm kinda also really happy to just preserve it exactly, instead of suddenly making game-play changes 10 years later. I can't decide  I doubt it would ruin StarCraft, but I also want to win games against players who hit i instead of o to seige their tanks lol. | ||
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ETisME
12214 Posts
On May 31 2017 11:43 Chris_Havoc wrote: I'll keep my opinion simple. If the meta changes because of hotkeys, that's OK. If it doesn't, that's OK too. Players will adapt either way. If the Korean tournaments ban custom hotkeys that's fine. If not, that's fine too. However I do think that tournaments will likely allow custom hotkeys purely on the basis that it doesn't make much sense to have different hotkey setups for home/ladder play vs. tournament play. Also, will I think anything less of players that use custom hotkeys vs. ones that do not? No I will not. I'm grateful that both Brood War has made a comeback and that Remastered is actually happening and I have faith in Blizzard's Classic team to do the right thing in the long run. In the end, whatever happens, happens. I'll continue watch and play Brood War for many more years to come. This is exactly what I think. The remaster has a lot of changes in place: visual, hotkey rebind and a wider fov Everything is available for everyone. If it destroy the dedicated balance of bw then so be it. Game will adapt, it's not like the game is set in stone with the current meta. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States9924 Posts
On May 31 2017 07:38 SkrollK wrote: Lmfao that's so stupid ^^ Then why are you using hotkeys ? You arent a true gosu then... True gosu dont want things to be easy and instantaneous... So they use mouse only man.. Do you use mouse only ? So you're no gosu sorry. ........ Like for real ? Is this your argument ? "Players that want rebindable hotkeys are lazy arrivists people that want to be as good as me in 2 min even Tho they arent able to press m or o correctly..." I understand some of the anti rebindable when they Say that balance should be monitored (winrates at least) after they patch it definitively so that we are sure it wont give any unfair advantage to one RACE. But given unfair advantage to a player ? Thats laughable. your strawman of the post is so egregious, idk how you were banned for that comment. | ||
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