EPTrebinding hotkeys in broodwar - Page 2
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
On May 28 2017 04:22 Endymion wrote: it removes an aspect of stress from the game, how exactly is that not changing the strategy of the game? i really don't see what is so ridiculous about what i have said, could you please explain? "...which adds strategic considerations to their build and macro decisions." is another way of saying i'm gonna hit my keys differently or use a different method (like boxing larvae, which i'll add, a lot of high end players use) or changing screen focus for literally one-and-a-half seconds so i don't mess it up. does it really add anything that you make your overlords in a different way? far hotkeys as an "aspect of stress" is a cute way of framing something that's anachronistic. most of these arguments concern foreigners because we're considered that. koreans come into the argument [for us] because of the little guy inside that wants the best of the best for us. that's like taking a celebrity's endorsement for a product. most of us will never reach that level or could even consider it. we don't really know what they think unless we knew both the language and could ask them personally. for the casual player looking to get better over small spurts, the hotkeys make no sense and impact the game in a negative way. this is coming from someone who is an elitist and thinks that what's best for the koreans is what's best for me. if some guy was looking me in the eye and trying to explain/argue that cross-keyboard hotkeys were good, in 2017, i wouldn't be able to take them seriously. the genre is dying and we're trying to make the game hard (and i say this because there's an opportunity to make it easier) to "keep the complexity", please. so what are left handed players supposed to do? i'd rather the situation that we have rebinds and most new players who use the feature will never experience the difficulties and hotkey problems that some of us went through, than for our old guard to have a persisting edge for having put so much time already into learning muscle memory and practicing around the keys because they had no other choice. shouldn't that edge predominately be in experience and mentality in self-improvement? will you still need to control space with tanks, and all the other strategic choices you gotta make in a game? yeah. is it easier on you because your hotkeys are manageable? also yeah. this makes it easier across the board right? i disagree. you will simply find another way to find an edge, one of such ways is playing even faster. you think that changes the balance? i'd like you to measure the difference in key inputs between pressing 3/4-o over pressing 3/4-d. i can guarantee that for people who are fast at either that the difference would be less than a third of a second and the only real difference is how you stance your fingers and mentally prepare yourself to press the buttons. think about it, are you playing the game, or is the game playing you? i think what you're actually concerned about is reaching a good level of play with lesser practice, and this has been an issue since replays were an added feature to the game. it's an issue in any game where a set of players practice something and someone else is watching or studying you. they catch up because what you're doing is actually understandable and can be replicated directly, leaving further improvements to the gameplay directly to make the builds (and counter builds) even better. all i can say is the game will still have very high basic mechanical requirements, to the point that most casuals won't use more than a couple hotkeys anyway, but will feel incentive to at least try with rebindings. you can try and tell them that they already have it easy, but all it is is an old fart barking over a younger player who just enjoys the same game you have been. | ||
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
On May 29 2017 01:47 404AlphaSquad wrote: Players have won sc2 tournaments with BW hotkeys. Hotkeys dont change balance. period. jaedong could also probably go 50-0 against iccup d players without a monitor, does that mean having a monitor doesn't influence balance? On May 29 2017 02:07 nanaoei wrote: "...which adds strategic considerations to their build and macro decisions." is another way of saying i'm gonna hit my keys differently or use a different method (like boxing larvae, which i'll add, a lot of high end players use) or changing screen focus for literally one-and-a-half seconds so i don't mess it up. does it really add anything that you make your overlords in a different way? far hotkeys as an "aspect of stress" is a cute way of framing something that's anachronistic. most of these arguments concern foreigners because we're considered that. koreans come into the argument [for us] because of the little guy inside that wants the best of the best for us. that's like taking a celebrity's endorsement for a product. most of us will never reach that level or could even consider it. we don't really know what they think unless we knew both the language and could ask them personally. for the casual player looking to get better over small spurts, the hotkeys make no sense and impact the game in a negative way. this is coming from someone who is an elitist and thinks that what's best for the koreans is what's best for me. if some guy was looking me in the eye and trying to explain/argue that cross-keyboard hotkeys were good, in 2017, i wouldn't be able to take them seriously. the genre is dying and we're trying to make the game hard (and i say this because there's an opportunity to make it easier) to "keep the complexity", please. so what are left handed players supposed to do? i'd rather the situation that we have rebinds and most new players who use the feature will never experience the difficulties and hotkey problems that some of us went through, than for our old guard to have a persisting edge for having put so much time already into learning muscle memory and practicing around the keys because they had no other choice. shouldn't that edge predominately be in experience and mentality in self-improvement? i think what you're actually concerned about is reaching a good level of play with lesser practice, and this has been an issue since replays were an added feature to the game. it's an issue in any game where a set of players practice something and someone else is watching or studying you. they catch up because what you're doing is actually understandable and can be replicated directly, leaving further improvements to the gameplay directly to make the builds (and counter builds) even better. all i can say is the game will still have very high basic mechanical requirements, to the point that most casuals won't use more than a couple hotkeys anyway, but will feel incentive to at least try with rebindings. you can try and tell them that they already have it easy, but all it is is an old fart barking over a younger player who just enjoys the same game you have been. no, what i'm concerned with is there being a general skill reduction in the game for next to no reason other than "eh let's throw it in," with people defending it by screaming elitism because they can't hit the o key to make overlords or saying things like "the genre is dying, we need new players." if the scene lived through sc2's antics it can certainly live through this by not compromising core game mechanics. like, a new player who is only willing to play broodwar if there are rebindable hotkeys isn't a "broodwar" player, they're only someone looking for a simplified version of the game... again, why is the game being compromised for something like that? it's a less obvious version of mbs/unlimited select/auto mine and it is making the game easier, so it just shouldn't be there period | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
You might not need to hit 5so6so7so8so, but maybe you need to do 5sz6sz7sz8so, or 5sz6sz7so8sz depending on game conditions.. and if you end up missing the ‘o’ key on any of those rotations, and don’t notice, you are supply blocked, and will be behind as a result of your lack of practice/fluency with your hotkeys. Thus, you don’t just need to know “hey, ‘o’ is overlord,” you need to be ready to execute and allocate your practice accordingly. However, if you can just use a grid hotkey layout, I think your overlord would end up being ‘e,’ which even the noobest player could hit with near 100% accuracy on all hatchery macro rotations.. 5se6se7se8se,5se6sz7sz8sz, 5sz6se7sz8se, so you’re artificially a better player than a 1.16.1 player in that regard. You no longer have to really worry about fucking up your macro because Blizzard gave you an out in the form of rebinding overlord from ‘o’ to ‘e.’ I have been playing broodwar since release and I still miss ‘o’ at least once a game in the mentioned macro rotations, so I can only imagine that newer zergs have the same issue as well, which adds strategic considerations to their build and macro decisions. What you wrote before this...spot on in my opinion. This quoted part is where we totally deviate. I don't think it's any more difficult to 4so5so6so than it is to 4se5se6s, or to 0p9p8p than it is to 4e5e6e. If you have accuracy problems hitting o, you're going to have accuracy problems hitting e. The only hotkey I can really see there being a potential, noticable difference from are ss for zerg, and o for terran. You already talked about tanks, and trying to go fast it's sometimes possible to double tap s and make extra scourge when you don't want them. Out of curiosity, can any think of pro level games where a player accidentally massed a huge scourge flock or clearly unsieged at a time he absolutely DID NOT want to? if the scene lived through sc2's antics it can certainly live through this by not compromising core game mechanics. like, a new player who is only willing to play broodwar if there are rebindable hotkeys isn't a "broodwar" player, they're only someone looking for a simplified version of the game... again, why is the game being compromised for something like that? it's a less obvious version of mbs/unlimited select/auto mine and it is making the game easier, so it just shouldn't be there period This is the other aspect where people are going to have legitimate philosophical disagreement. Not everyone is going to feel that hitting hotkeys a specific set of hotkeys is a core BW mechanics. The other argument would probably be that the ability to press keys accurate is integral to BW, but having a pre-defined set of hotkeys to press is not. | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On May 29 2017 01:47 404AlphaSquad wrote: Players have won sc2 tournaments with BW hotkeys. Hotkeys dont change balance. period. Although that's a nice observation, your conclusion just does not follow. The facts are facts, and anything involving asymmetry between races during gameplay affects balance to some degree. All we can argue about is whether or not the effect is relevant at this point. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7290 Posts
On May 29 2017 00:05 ldv wrote: This coming from, inarguably, the most elitist and pretentious member of the entire forum. I'm bamboozled. You also (unsurprisingly) seemed to miss the post where I rescinded my statement and said it was a stupid thing to say. But, nobody really expects you to read the content before throwing your attitude into the ring. FlashFTW is not pretentious. He is a good guy and does a lot for the Brood War community. Here's why he's saying what he said: your argument ("if you had >80 apm") can be basically boiled down to, "You're a noob so you don't understand". Then, once it was clarified that I may understand the game better than what you initially thought, you say: On May 28 2017 12:41 ldv wrote: But I think my argument is still valid, especially because I consider the only arguments against hotkey rebinding to be utterly nonsensical. If we go back to your 'argument', it was that playing video games poses a high risk of injury to one's wrists. I replied that people can and should take breaks to alleviate the stress, and I could've even made the argument that playing past the point of wrists hurting could be counter-productive to progamers trying to get good practice. But let's take Lee Young Ho's wrist injury and say he's probably the most focused player, and that it's impossible to get him to quit a practice session because of his sheer mental focus. The arm that needed surgery was his right arm, which would be for his mouse, not his keyboard. Therefore, doing a key re-bind would do nothing to prevent that injury from occurring. Additionally, a majority of progamers are not dealing with wrist injuries, despite using their keyboards more than anyone else. The risk of injury people isn't any different than that of a typist, or software engineer, or anyone who regularly uses a keyboard a high pace. Furthermore, there is no data done in any study that suggests changing hotkeys or changing keybinds would reduce the number of players suffering from wrist issues. Such a study would likely take 5-10 years, and so any evidence pertaining to a change in keybinds alleviating injury risk is purely anecdotal. Again, I am not against changing keybinds. But the very first post you make is entirely non-constructive, where you call Endymion "pretentious", and now you're saying FlashFTW is "pretentious". Who is not pretentious in your book? Only people who agree with everything you say? | ||
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ldv
United States103 Posts
On May 29 2017 04:47 ninazerg wrote: FlashFTW is not pretentious. He is a good guy and does a lot for the Brood War community. Here's why he's saying what he said: your argument ("if you had >80 apm") can be basically boiled down to, "You're a noob so you don't understand". Then, once it was clarified that I may understand the game better than what you initially thought, you say: If we go back to your 'argument', it was that playing video games poses a high risk of injury to one's wrists. I replied that people can and should take breaks to alleviate the stress, and I could've even made the argument that playing past the point of wrists hurting could be counter-productive to progamers trying to get good practice. But let's take Lee Young Ho's wrist injury and say he's probably the most focused player, and that it's impossible to get him to quit a practice session because of his sheer mental focus. The arm that needed surgery was his right arm, which would be for his mouse, not his keyboard. Therefore, doing a key re-bind would do nothing to prevent that injury from occurring. Additionally, a majority of progamers are not dealing with wrist injuries, despite using their keyboards more than anyone else. The risk of injury people isn't any different than that of a typist, or software engineer, or anyone who regularly uses a keyboard a high pace. Furthermore, there is no data done in any study that suggests changing hotkeys or changing keybinds would reduce the number of players suffering from wrist issues. Such a study would likely take 5-10 years, and so any evidence pertaining to a change in keybinds alleviating injury risk is purely anecdotal. Again, I am not against changing keybinds. But the very first post you make is entirely non-constructive, where you call Endymion "pretentious", and now you're saying FlashFTW is "pretentious". Who is not pretentious in your book? Only people who agree with everything you say? Being against any changes to a 20 year old game to preserve what I believe to be an extremely warped sense of 'balance' requirements is pretentious, in my opinion. And I know what FlashFTW was referring to, but he has a reputation himself. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On May 29 2017 04:59 ldv wrote: Being against any changes to a 20 year old game to preserve what I believe to be an extremely warped sense of 'balance' requirements is pretentious, in my opinion. And I know what FlashFTW was referring to, but he has a reputation himself. Being against any changes to a 20 year old game just because you don't want it to change could indeed be pretentious. That's not what is happening here. Endymion has laid out a logical argument about why a particular change would not be good. There is absolutely nothing pretentious about that. If you disagree with his conclusion, explain why. Are his assumptions wrong? Is his logical stemming from those assumptions wrong? Explain why? Responding to someone, especially someone who has laid out a crafted argument, with "you're pretentious is obnoxious, unconvincing, and serves no purpose. In other words, it is constructive feedback that is a waste of everyone's time. | ||
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ldv
United States103 Posts
On May 29 2017 05:38 L_Master wrote: Being against any changes to a 20 year old game just because you don't want it to change could indeed be pretentious. That's not what is happening here. Endymion has laid out a logical argument about why a particular change would not be good. There is absolutely nothing pretentious about that. If you disagree with his conclusion, explain why. Are his assumptions wrong? Is his logical stemming from those assumptions wrong? Explain why? Responding to someone, especially someone who has laid out a crafted argument, with "you're pretentious is obnoxious, unconvincing, and serves no purpose. In other words, it is constructive feedback that is a waste of everyone's time. I've already explained why, and you're warping my words and putting words in my mouth. I didn't say "because i don't want to change it" so if you want to have a real conversation about it let's start by not telling me what I'm saying. | ||
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BrTarolg
United Kingdom3574 Posts
But I really don't think rebinding keys is that big of a deal. The other aspects of broodwar are much more interesting, and the key positioning of broodwar is probably one of the least interesting aspects of the game I mean, we had a lot of fun studying different progamer hotkey setups and stuff, but then you watch Stork fpvods lol Just let people have rebinds. Nobody is going to be like "I lost because my opponent is using better keybindings than me" lmao | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
 link please? | ||
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ninazerg
United States7290 Posts
On May 29 2017 05:44 ldv wrote: I've already explained why, and you're warping my words and putting words in my mouth. I didn't say "because i don't want to change it" so if you want to have a real conversation about it let's start by not telling me what I'm saying. I think you may have misread what L_master wrote, because your response to his post makes no sense unless you think he said "Being against any changes to a 20 year old game just because you don't want it to change could indeed be pretentious." towards you as the topic of the sentence when he meant that Endymion or someone else COULD be pretentious for said reasons, but that in this case, Endymion made an argument for keeping keybinds the old-school way. The only thing you've said that resembles an argument is "rapid side movements are bad for your wrist". | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
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BrTarolg
United Kingdom3574 Posts
On May 29 2017 06:39 CecilSunkure wrote: @BrTarolg totally agreed, but what did you mean about Stork fpvod? I'm intrigued link please?super low apm for a progamer lol hes just super efficient at everything i think he has tons of fpvods on youtube if you just search for stork I find it very entertaining when he sets his rally points, he just sets all his gateways in the same place and never changes it haha And he also does it the slow way  | ||
Peeano
Netherlands4641 Posts
If you're still missing o/i/u every game I'd argue you haven't or aren't practicing properly or either your chair-desk-keyboard-monitor setup could be improved. I bet any serious piano player could tell you all about why 'form and technique' matter even if the only goal was to strike the right keys. I'm all for allowing to change hotkeys, because there are already different hotkeys with multiple languaged BW. Plus anyone with a little effort could already be using custom - easier - hotkeys in 1.16.1 without you being able to tell! I'd much rather level the playground on that regard. (It will also lower the entry level for new blood, which BW needs.) I don't know if custom or grid hotkeys are already active with the current patch. But if they are or once they will be active, I'd like to tell every BW player to stop being lazy and prideful. It is not that hard to relearn hotkeys as long as you aren't over 60 years old. I bet you'll end up having more fun in the long run, because you've likely neglected to improve your current key pressing anyway - which leads to your subpar accuracy. This likely isn't going to make me very popular but a lot of veteran BW players play like monkeys and try to find valid arguments that lets them keep playing like monkeys. It's time to break out your comfort zone and improve. | ||
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AbouSV
Germany1278 Posts
At which point can you include such 'strategical considerations if you don't even know what hardware your opponent has? The only way to be fair in for everyone to play only on touchscreen, with the same resolution and size for everyone. Handy way to play. | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
On May 29 2017 02:42 Endymion wrote: jaedong could also probably go 50-0 against iccup d players without a monitor, does that mean having a monitor doesn't influence balance? no, what i'm concerned with is there being a general skill reduction in the game for next to no reason other than "eh let's throw it in," with people defending it by screaming elitism because they can't hit the o key to make overlords or saying things like "the genre is dying, we need new players." if the scene lived through sc2's antics it can certainly live through this by not compromising core game mechanics. like, a new player who is only willing to play broodwar if there are rebindable hotkeys isn't a "broodwar" player, they're only someone looking for a simplified version of the game... again, why is the game being compromised for something like that? it's a less obvious version of mbs/unlimited select/auto mine and it is making the game easier, so it just shouldn't be there period you do not need to be concerned about those people screaming elitism, because you already hold an opinion on the matter. if you want people to be able to better accept that the 20 y/o hotkeys have an irreplaceable role/feel in the game, you also need to be able to accept that the game was not made perfect and that there were and are ways to still improve on it. this includes the key assignments themselves. i can definitely see that the way everything has been set up with the game has led to the game being as beautiful and complex as it is today, but again, most people will never see this complexity, nor experience, nor would they feel the motivation to. they want to play to have fun, not have the game play them or make things unnecessarily more stressful. the age old argument from a veteran is to 'get good'. perhaps this is a way of saying, 'go through the same general journey that i did to get to where i am in player skill and experience, because it is worth it and it is part of the game and why it means so much to so many more people.' that would be valid, but this is not exactly how new players will experience the game in the coming years; they will come and go because of waning interest. this is not how games are created or designed today, and that is because people have moved on and learned from their mistakes as developers and now need to find a different way of drumming up lasting interest and revenue through their game. one major step: accessibility, considering burden of knowledge. if this game is going to take off in 2017 for a new generation of players, it's going to sustain it's playerbase outside of korea where interest, culture, or playerbase is different. this game is living... but how many of us actually play it as our main game anymore? i suspect even the old guard outside of the most hardcore or steel-headed players do not play this game for sheer fun. i'm not just talking about rebinds, but the game does not have a lot to help new players delve in. it's pretty stubborn to say that it will survive because it already has been doing so. in a way that can be viewed as settling with stagnation and us simply being a consumer for what content the korean scene might create for us. don't you want the game to do better than having a few dozen game lobbies? back to the idea of stubbornness and going down the same line of logic, in this day and age, if you had a game with absolutely no way of reassigning important functions, i guarantee that you'd be turning away players at the door. remapping is virtually present (even in a general sense) in nearly every single game out there. you would possibly be turning away "not bw players" who would/could be more of a player than you are; the preconception that they're not worthy, or they wouldn't be capable from what they've shown (in their very reasonable expectations of the game) already. from what i've heard Hitler was turned away at an art academy. but in the case of BW, it could be because of a case of no compromise. no-rebinds enthusiasts or whoever, go ahead and make a hotkey tutorial for all the budding starcraft players out there. or (rhetorically) is that again another nono as they need to experience and learn on their own to truly appreciate or enjoy starcraft? it's not "eh, let's throw it in", it's something along the lines of "why the hell not?" i really, still don't understand how it's considered a compromise and if it were, the game is being compromised for how even if players have genuine interest in the game, they can play an an additional way that they'd like. is it more or less skill that quickcast exists in mobas? should a game remove it to require more mechanical skill from each player, and add seconds to gameplay, or different decision making in very few select cases? is it really so big a deal that we'll see shifts in winrate? dude. i'd rather see the results of what happens than to erase the possibility of them being used in the first place. if you really needed to, you could restrict rebindings in tournament settings for the players it might actually affect, because those same players will then be practicing on legacy keys the entire way through anyway, even if they were previously considering changing their method of play with diff. keys. full honestly, i think the new graphics updates could affect the core gameplay more, lol. again, what do left-handed players do for SCBW? i honestly don't know, but i can tell you that for the players i play with and do know that with other games that even have remapping options, what they're doing is compromising in order to eventually find a more comfortable way of playing. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On May 28 2017 03:53 blade55555 wrote: Rebinding hotkeys is changing strategy? Man that is so overblown it's ridiculous at this point. I would completely understand this if MBS or instead of 12 there were 24 units allowed to be selected or something like that. But Hotkeys? I promise you this isn't going to change the game in anyway lol. I bet a month or 2 after the hotkeys are in you won't notice a difference in player skill and the game will look the same exact as it has. Obviously Koreans aren't as against this as some foreigners on here as Blizzard seems to be taking Korean feedback seriously and if all the Koreans were as against this as you were, I don't think Blizzard would do it. Seconded. Having played a decent number of games including BW and SC2, I believe that mouse accuracy is the crux of execution in Brood War, moreso than any other game I've ever played. Speed and accuracy of keyboard inputs is definitely important too, but it plays a very very very minor role in the actual speed and ability of a player. I always bring this up, but there was a quasi-scientific attempt in SC2 to create the PERFECT keyboard layout (The Core) which more or less had 0 impact on the skill of the players using it. AND AGAIN, it's not like people haven't been using custom hotkeys or different language settings to get around this problem before. Not everyone uses pure BW hotkeys the way they were designed. Newer players may have a slightly easier time pressing buttons which may flatten out the skill level in D/D- levels some because eeking out an extra 10 APM is gigantic if you're APM is typically 60-80 to begin with. Custom hotkeys will likely change nothing at the mid to top level. On May 28 2017 16:10 ETisME wrote: visual clarity difference and different aspect ratio that makes for wider FOV are ok? Omg, muta micro is going to be so much easier, not even exaggerating. I look forward to that as a Zerg player, but I imagine some people might not.... On May 29 2017 11:35 Peeano wrote: Have you ever reviewed your key pressing? Do you ever just practice key pressing? Do you have a ruler like Flash? Do you always sit at the same distance and height? If you're still missing o/i/u every game I'd argue you haven't or aren't practicing properly or either your chair-desk-keyboard-monitor setup could be improved. I bet any serious piano player could tell you all about why 'form and technique' matter even if the only goal was to strike the right keys. I'm all for allowing to change hotkeys, because there are already different hotkeys with multiple languaged BW. Plus anyone with a little effort could already be using custom - easier - hotkeys in 1.16.1 without you being able to tell! I'd much rather level the playground on that regard. (It will also lower the entry level for new blood, which BW needs.) I don't know if custom or grid hotkeys are already active with the current patch. But if they are or once they will be active, I'd like to tell every BW player to stop being lazy and prideful. It is not that hard to relearn hotkeys as long as you aren't over 60 years old. I bet you'll end up having more fun in the long run, because you've likely neglected to improve your current key pressing anyway - which leads to your subpar accuracy. This likely isn't going to make me very popular but a lot of veteran BW players play like monkeys and try to find valid arguments that lets them keep playing like monkeys. It's time to break out your comfort zone and improve. As a former Peeano major (hehe), I have no problem moving my hands around the keyboard, so I'm not sure if I can relate fully to those who have trouble jumping around. Posture is mostly about just preventing injury to the spine and wrists, but finger acrobatics do need to be practiced in isolation. One of the tips that Day9 gave out at one point was to unplug your keyboard (or have a second keyboard) while watching games and just practice some of your macro cycles (5m6m7m8m9t0v or 5sz6sz7sz8sz9so for instance). I've done this a few times and it's helped me a ton with learning the exact distance I need to move and position my hand, and in isolation, it's given me a way to slow down the motions and find more efficient ways of doing it (using my pinky, ring finger, or even my thumb in some instances). Even if you rebind the hotkeys to something more efficient like 5a6a7a8a9o0p (Terran example above) or something like grid with 5q6q7q8q9w0q, it's still equally as challenging and requires practice. The only legitimate hotkey rebinding that *could* have a significant impact is moving patrol and hold position around. Mutalisk micro is very challenging in part because shifting between your "home row" of 1-5asdf and H/P is very difficult to do quickly without flubbing your macro or your micro. So I can see that argument, but I still think it's difficult to really tell without actually trying it out first. | ||
IntoTheWow
is awesome32263 Posts
I don't give hotkey setup any more importance than monitor choice, mouse, keyboards with macro keys, chair comfortableness, etc. Are we defining the setup people can play in too? Cause I feel just as uneasy if somebody changes my mouse sensibility or my monitor position, than if someone changes some of my hotkeys. Up to this point, lots of people on iccup played with custom hotkeys, keyboards with F keys in different positions and so on. I never felt cheated because of that. I know people who played with the spanish version of BW which has different hotkeys. Is that cheating? I never saw anyone analyze hotkey for other languages, probably because they don't affect that game that much, or people don't care. What sets the game apart is not what hotkeys you press, but the muscle memory and the training to get it done over and over without giving it a thought. All these arguments feel to me as if people are angry they had to do with dumb hotkeys, are too committed on those to learn new ones, and don't want other people setting up comfortable hotkeys. TBH, I feel at the level the 95% of us could accomplish, it doesn't change much. If you ever do, and compete at a high level (like WCG was at the time, not sure if there's anything for foreigners right now), the tournament itself could enforce certain setups or "default hotkeys". I still think the impact of adding this is minimal, and you are alienating lots of people from discovering the game by having such a strict definition of "changing the game". I think widescreen support will have a much bigger impact and no one seems mad about that. Also, just to bring another fact into the discussion: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/110736-are-custom-hotkeys-legal-on-iccup#8 On January 24 2010 15:47 Day[9] wrote: key remapping was legal at all the WCGs I went to (including grand finals) | ||
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vaL4r
Germany240 Posts
For those unfamiliar with Sirlin's viewpoint on this topic: He generally seems to be of the opinion that when it comes to uncontested skills, execution should always be as easy as possible, and the real gameplay that we should care about is all ingame decision making (although that's just my second hand interpretation). I don't agree but he does make some nice valid points and it's worth a listen! I especially enjoyed the part about "cake baking". I think uncontested skills can be very fun, and rewarding, and are often worth having! As I said in post #3 I think it's on a case by case basis and blindly going with either extreme is bad (eliminating uncontested skills vs lots of really hard uncontested skills). Imagine everybody was forced to play with some setup where you have to have your keyboard strapped to your back while playing starcraft. Essentially the same as having awkward unrebindable hotkeys; just taken to a greater extreme. I'm sure you'd agree that's way too annoying and not worth having! Allowing people to unstrap the keyboard from their backs does lower the skill ceiling however! But if you ask me being able to unstrap is better and really doesn't take anything away. How much cake-baking do you want in your game? Again, if you ask me it really just depends on a case by case basis and rebindable keys are completely fine. Are you really against rebindable keys? *Also I think IntoTheWow put it best and I completely agree with him on this topic | ||
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