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Thanks man, really good series.
Getting ready for Overwatch as a noob myself I was looking for a series like this, keep at it I've liked what u have here u got yourself a new subscriber
Thank you so much guys! I hope to keep them rolling, and keep improving the series. Hopefully for episode 5 I can have my hands on a replay client
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Fantastic videos, haven't been following the OW proscene much but with insights like these I'm now very intrigued. Looking forward to more content, keep it up!
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I was watching theses and all I could think of is that it is Day9 worthy stuff. I wish there was a replay system in place so you could pause and move the camera around/out to show positioning, pathing, etc...
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Thank you. I really don't think I deserve that kind of comparison, but I can't lie that Day9 heavily influenced the way I see video games. His Dailies were what got me into wanting to play sc2 competitively back in WoL.
I agree I can't wait till have a demo system, every new episode I have done since 2 I have wanted to have one more and more.
Apologize that episode 5 is not out yet, it should be out tonight. I had a bit of casting obligations this weekend, but you guys should be seeing a new episode soon! Again sorry for the delay, and thank you for your support
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Episode 5 is finally out. I apologize for the time between episodes, I was casting 2 overwatch tournaments this week. I hope to balance my schedule and get you guys at least 2 episodes a week!
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You're doing a really great job there, but could you please stick to using the heroes names instead of players nicknames? It's really confusing to me, because I dont know any of those guys. Everytime you call them by nicknames I have to search on the top bar who you really mean by this.
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You're doing a really great job there, but could you please stick to using the heroes names instead of players nicknames? It's really confusing to me, because I dont know any of those guys. Everytime you call them by nicknames I have to search on the top bar who you really mean by this.
I am really sorry about that. Many people have complained about that and I really want to work on that for the next episode. its a habit from casting, while in casting its perfectly fine I get where it could be extremely annoying here. Thank you for being honest and frank about this, I hope to get it ironed out by the next episode or two :D
And double thank you for enjoying the content. I am glad my rambling is useful to you! I really did enjoy making this episode specifically.
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On June 01 2016 01:25 RaptorZGaming wrote:Show nested quote +You're doing a really great job there, but could you please stick to using the heroes names instead of players nicknames? It's really confusing to me, because I dont know any of those guys. Everytime you call them by nicknames I have to search on the top bar who you really mean by this. I am really sorry about that. Many people have complained about that and I really want to work on that for the next episode. its a habit from casting, while in casting its perfectly fine I get where it could be extremely annoying here. Thank you for being honest and frank about this, I hope to get it ironed out by the next episode or two :D And double thank you for enjoying the content. I am glad my rambling is useful to you! I really did enjoy making this episode specifically.
Glad, I can help, I also hope that Blizzard implements some kind of replay/demo system soonish so you can show the angles you want to not only from vods.
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I also hope that Blizzard implements some kind of replay/demo system soonish so you can show the angles you want to not only from vods.
I couldn't agree more. It is getting to the point where I feel the need to say more because I have to explain it, rather than just show it. I hope they do add it time, and give the replay client so neat features like a mini-map/other information tools. But it's week 2 so can't complain all that much (however I really did want it on launch).
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In ep 5 I get the first defendse but I don't really get the second, except for the fact that they make sure they are repositioned before each push. I feel it came down to individual outplays and poor play from the attackers more than anything else there. If you look at the soldier who is sitting on top of the aircraft then you can see that noone even checked if he is there when they push through below it. It seems to be an extremely dangerous angle there because he has so many players who could actually shoot him there for a pretty long time but they don't even get the tradekill off. I also wonder how the defense adapted with their positioning between the attacks, because we couldn't really see that in the video. I second that there needs to be a replay system for that. Overall I enjoyed all the videos and I subscribed so keep it up!
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I don't really get the second, except for the fact that they make sure they are repositioned before each push. I feel it came down to individual outplays and poor play from the attackers more than anything else there. If you look at the soldier who is sitting on top of the aircraft then you can see that noone even checked if he is there when they push through below it.
Firstly, I want to bring up the point that individual play defines every strategy and game that is played at the top level. Even in games at low, medium, and high skill, there are more instances than not of a strategy working because an individual or a few, significantly outplay or out-preform their opponents at that time. But that is why I covered this topic in stratwatch 4. I want to make it clear through-out this series and my analysis that individual play and strategy are an ebb and flow, without one the other doesn't matter. But the emphasis here in the series as a whole is the yin and yang between them.
As for ReUnited never checking for the soldier: They knew. They knew very well what they were walking into, but between time constraints and the power of the setup that c9 uses, they chose to power through with a Roadhog and use his pick mechanic (hook+LMB+melee) to hope for a power play in hero numbers. Ultimately I think, and the game as a loss is some qualatitative proof, that it was the wrong method to crack this setup.
It seems to be an extremely dangerous angle there because he has so many players who could actually shoot him there for a pretty long time but they don't even get the tradekill off.
While yes all 4 doors can see soldier; soldier can see all 4 doors. It is the purpose of having him play that hero in that spot. He can quickly move around the top of the shuttle to change what doors can and can't see him. If there is a direct threat to Soldier it has to move through the doors (if its widow ill cover below), which means the McCree cross fire + soldier concentrating the target at the same time will quickly dispense of them. If they threat some how survives that, or is still a threat after this, winston is behind soldier ready to drop a bubble and give soldier an additional 600 HP. Also note that with the Mercy amping the soldier, and his biotic field, no hero can trade and poke with a soldier.
You might think about Widowmaker, and to be honest I think this is part of the way to deal with it. However I imagine in a world where a Widow is the counter, the widows primary goal is first to pick Mercy then Soldier. However, its worth noting that again if this is the threat soldier can stand on the shuttle so that the door Widow is peaking through is LOS blocked because of the shuttle. Again also add that Winston can bubble soldier + mercy while soldier goes to town.
I also wonder how the defense adapted with their positioning between the attacks, because we couldn't really see that in the video.
If this is all in reference to the first portion of the defense, they do minor adaptions with the 2 winstons before each push based on the information gathered by Infra-Sight, or by what they don't see. The changes are really when the attack happens, and in that game I think they flex out 2 of 3 times very similarly. However I really wanted to stress the idea that spreading out with this sort of mobile mid-range / long range line-up creates great crossfires. c9 doesn't really need to change how they specifically respond because they weren't really threatened (until surefour goes down after adam, and 2easy goes off with his widow).
If this is in reference to the second point, they don't change their setup at all really; and that was the major difference that I didn't highlight well I guess. They have a rigid way to execute that portion that exploits the inability for the defense to pick at soldier on the shuttle.
Thank you so much for your discussion point and thoughts! I really enjoy engaging in theory crafting, and its part of the reason why I have started the series. Thank you for taking the time to engage here, and also for the sub I hope I can continue to make quality stratwatches for you guys!
Also forgive grammar, or if something doesn't make sense. Did a basic edit run through, but low on sleep from casting and want to get you guys the next stratwatch ASAP (Ideally monday early day is the plan now).
quick edit: Want to add, I don't want my logic to make it sound like this defense is unbeatable - all strats are beatable through counterstrating or good play. I personally think knowing how to beat a strat starts with knowing it in and out, so I hope this discussion helps enlighten people about the strategy further! :D
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Thank you for the response. Another thing I wonder, it might be very basic, is which the priority picks are at the moment and why. And also why teams regularly have 2 heroes of the same type, is it because it gives their strategy more focus or is it because there are only so few viable picks atm?
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Sweet, learning the game now =)
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Thank you for the response. Another thing I wonder, it might be very basic, is which the priority picks are at the moment and why. And also why teams regularly have 2 heroes of the same type, is it because it gives their strategy more focus or is it because there are only so few viable picks atm?
This is a very contentious subject in the community right now. But it basically boils down to the name of the game is agression in overwatch at the moment. 2x winston brings more pressure and tempo than any other tank combo, and 2x lucio for koth is very strong (small internal synergies are that, auras dont stack but you have one on each being able to amp which aura needs it on need. Also high skill lucio duos coordinate whos on what aura based on ult charge, the healing lucio will always get it faster so its important to swap here and there on auras). And of course McCree is just amazing right now, his whole toolkit just gives good players a lot to work with (and it a lot of the communities eyes too much to work with). I can expand on this more if you want, but that is the tl;dr of it.
Note most of the community in the competitive scene wants 1 hero limits. We will see where it goes. In a month or two after balance changes, this topic will probably be a much different beast.
Sweet, learning the game now =)
Glad I can help. Knowing this helps both competitive players and new players a like makes the creating of these videos that much more rewarding. I really do want to help mitigate the negativity on ladder/quick match by enlightening people on how to synergize hero picks, and hopefully clearing explaining the idea that individual play and teamwork are a balance in this game. You can't win without one, but each game one side of the equation can matter more.
I will be releasing Stratwatch 6 tomorrow (Monday 6/6) ideally around 11AM PST. Hopefully it will continue to prove useful!
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Thx for the upload. Zarya seems to be a really good and flexible tank who can hold objectives very well paired with another tank. Preferably with Winston (King of the Hill) and with Reinhardt (Payload). Zarya and Reinhardt can kill just about any number of heroes with blackhole into shatter. She can give Winston just enough survivability to leap in and out of fights, making him an even stronger skirmisher.
In general I don't think it is too smart to focus too much on ultimate based wombo combos with blackhole though. I think it is better to have some sort of consistent AoE damage (Junkrat, Phara, Winston, Reinhardt) so you can take any opportunity to use blackhole on multiple targets as long as one of your AoE heroes is alive.
I'am not a fan of Mercy in KotH though. I don't see her utility shining in that mode as much.
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On June 13 2016 02:43 clickrush wrote: Thx for the upload. Zarya seems to be a really good and flexible tank who can hold objectives very well paired with another tank. Preferably with Winston (King of the Hill) and with Reinhardt (Payload). Zarya and Reinhardt can kill just about any number of heroes with blackhole into shatter. She can give Winston just enough survivability to leap in and out of fights, making him an even stronger skirmisher.
In general I don't think it is too smart to focus too much on ultimate based wombo combos with blackhole though. I think it is better to have some sort of consistent AoE damage (Junkrat, Phara, Winston, Reinhardt) so you can take any opportunity to use blackhole on multiple targets as long as one of your AoE heroes is alive.
I'am not a fan of Mercy in KotH though. I don't see her utility shining in that mode as much.
Thank you so much for the thoughts and discussion! On your first point, this is definitely a strong CC combo, but on KotH and just in general you want to be careful about using 2 CC abilities/ultimates together. If you land a large Graviton Surge, and have 1 damage ultimate it can wipe the entire team. Then next fight you can combo Earthshatter with your other damage ultimate. Where as if you use 2 CC ult's in conjunction you will only have damage ultimates in the next fight. However there always will be at least one if not many where comboing ES and GS together are beneficial. Just want to give you the other side of coin on this point.
On your second point, this is definitely true. If you can avoid using more than 1 ultimate (i.e. like you said just using GS and Junkrat spam) is ideal. However sometimes this is not the case, as its too high risk to rely on throughput spam/damage. But again you are right that if you can avoid using Damage ults to combo with GS or ES, and just wipe them out right you should - everytime no question. Just be ready to see what situations require one and don't is my point
Lastly this is a product of 1HL, which other support would you sub for mercy? Or would you only run 1 support, being probably lucio? Personally I think that Mercy is a double edged sword kind of hero. When heroed well and constantly hitting large well timed ults makes her very strong on KotH. But in the same breathe, if she is picked consistently, rezzes heroes in less than ideal situations, or etc, it is a major issue. Though I would argue that is intrinsic to the player not playing the hero well, rather than hero not being good.
Again thank you so much for your time and thoughts. I hope this adds to your thoughts and generates more discussion!
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Let me expand on the mercy issue. I think She is very good on Payload maps because she can juggle sustain vs poke damage well and can win key skirmishes in a specific area. Also there she has more space to hide and providing really good ultimates. But on KotH she is more a liability i think. I don't even think you need 2 supports there, 1 hero who sustaines between engagements and against poke has to be enough. An additional hero who can create picks is in my opinion way stronger there.
In an extreme example: Think of a 2v2 where one of the team has a mercy and the others have 2 heroes who can kill stuff. I'am betting right now that the team with mercy will lose alot more. In 6v6 KotH you could instead of mercy pick a hero with high burst who can create picks for example roadhog/reaper or a hero who deals AoE to counter the mercy heal such as phara/junkrat. If you are *constantly* forced to fight in a tight and more easily assessable area then sustain is way less interesting. If it has to be a second support then I even think the low pickrate zenyatta would do better because his orb is way more potent on a target than mercys dps buff and he provides poke and sustained damage by himself, also his ult counters alot of things better than revive and he doesnt have to hide in cover to provide it. Especially since people are wombo comboing.
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In an extreme example: Think of a 2v2 where one of the team has a mercy and the others have 2 heroes who can kill stuff. I'am betting right now that the team with mercy will lose alot more. In 6v6 KotH you could instead of mercy pick a hero with high burst who can create picks for example roadhog/reaper or a hero who deals AoE to counter the mercy heal such as phara/junkrat. If you are *constantly* forced to fight in a tight and more easily assessable area then sustain is way less interesting. If it has to be a second support then I even think the low pickrate zenyatta would do better because his orb is way more potent on a target than mercys dps buff and he provides poke and sustained damage by himself, also his ult counters alot of things better than revive and he doesnt have to hide in cover to provide it. Especially since people are wombo comboing.
Interesting way to look at. Specifically on the first point you talk about using damage instead of mercy, so in the current hero pool you would prefer running solo Lucio? (Or you mention Zenyatta)? I do like the line of logic you are bringing up, that maybe King of the Hill meta should look at a more aggressive style of play. I just think that the current hero pool makes it hard. I am curious what kind of composition would prefer if you removed Mercy. Something like Lucio + Zarya +Winston + Reaper + Tracer + McCree?
Also on your point at the end that Zenyatta helps deal with Wombo, do you think it is better than Mercy? Personally Transcendence does put out a lot of healing during a GS (not quite enough to stop barrage but it will slow it down), but I see Mercy as a better answer to wombo because you reset the fight post the combo by rezzing your team.
Thank you for the continued discussion. Hope this adds to it!
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