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On October 13 2015 02:19 TenMin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 02:06 Daizer wrote:On October 13 2015 01:49 SC2Angora wrote:On October 13 2015 01:10 Daizer wrote: Right now Mule is OP, 18% less then Hots while Zerg has 25% and Toss more then 25% nerfs.
You assume that everyone gets to late game and 60-80 workers.
Yet Zerg dies now to bio timings easily, Protoss to.
We can agree on something, they need to revert the nerfed MM patch.
4 larva 18% Chrono Mule
Yes they need to fix late game mule but that is easy with just giving the mule Hammer certain range like 25 Just look some stream and you will see so many protoss and zerg who have incredible strong timing to Terran too and can hold easilly the Terran Bio push. Terran was under the grave since the start of the beta, just incredibly weak with all theses macro change, this was indubitably the race the more affected by theses nerf, now the race become playable at a decent level for the first time since forever, so yes after these month of free win against terran that cant seem hard to play against them again but just open the eyes please. Look at top 16 GM It was full of Protoss and Terrans and 2-3 Zergs Its now 6 Terrans, 3 Zergs and the rest Protoss Terran wasn't the weakest at all, if a race had problems then Zerg is. And the trend is that all terrans are climbing, if it keeps like this we just have terrans in a week.
This is true. Sadly Blizzard listens to peoples complaints like this and it ends up ruining the game...
All of the races got nerfed, and it's arguable which race got it worst. But to act like Terran are incapable of producing just because the current Mule nerf (which after last patch is not really that bad at all) is silly.
Also to act like Mules are only to "keep up" is silly.... In many situations Mules actually allow terran to not simply "keep up" but also OUTPRODUCE the other races. Mules are still CRAZY strong... just look at the math of how much a single mule gives you!! Even compared to the HotS version it is still a huge benefit!!
This thread is littered with Terran bias. Like how "Zerg is a god tier race" and "they can drone exponentially"... If Zerg was god tier than how come they have had the worst showing in lotv GM for months? And yes they can drone exponentially but ONLY if they sacrifice production elsewhere, any time a Zerg is able to drone exponentially they are giving the opponent a window of vulnerability. This should open happen if you are being passive and letting them drone, or if they have gained the advantage on the battlefield already.
Find a training partner and play some straight macro games, and look at the resource graphs at the end. If the Terran player is on point with mules the production is still insane... and is AHEAD OF ZERG for a sizable portion of the game!
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On October 13 2015 02:22 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 01:43 Daizer wrote:On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote: the equivalent things between races in starcraft are not supposed to be equal. races are supposed to be better at some things and worse at others. the win percentages are all that need to be kept balanced. everything else is supposed to be as unequal as possible, for the sake of variety. it's no good looking at the "macro mechanics" of each race and trying to bring them in line with each other's effectiveness in every situation. that's not how the game is supposed to be balanced or designed If we only look at win perecentages we end up like Hots with horrible design and don't let him get there. Mech Cancer Stalkers 2/2 blink with sentrys Bl/Infestor All had Times where win perecentages where okay even tho everyone knew how broken those are. So yeah balancing after win rates is the fastest way to kill this game. This is the main reason why the game still has problems, balance after win rates cuz pros know everything.
Yeah, you can have variety by making certain maps, its more important to fix design and balance for the game.
The best way to change variety is fast balance patches to change meta and maps
You know like other games do!
I feel you forgot that Bl/Infestor and blink era killed this game views and popularity.
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On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote: the equivalent things between races in starcraft are not supposed to be equal. races are supposed to be better at some things and worse at others. the win percentages are all that need to be kept balanced. everything else is supposed to be as unequal as possible, for the sake of variety. it's no good looking at the "macro mechanics" of each race and trying to bring them in line with each other's effectiveness in every situation. that's not how the game is supposed to be balanced or designed
I have said the exact same thing as you Nony. I love the fact all the races have different mechanics, and i love how they are in HOTS tbh. The late game mass larva remax, the late game mass gateways, late game mass mules.
Problem is, the nerfs/changes blizzard did are not equal is what i was trying to say in my original post.
Terran / Protoss losing out on hundreds of resources early game, while Zerg essentially has the same exact economy...yeah, not going to ever work.
I think you misunderstood my original post or i slightly misconveyed it. I meant the nerfs/changes to all of the macro mechanics are not equal. Zerg to me is now the god tier race of the game.
Also one other thing i have to mention and bring up for discussion: for some strange reason people only seem to understand and put changes into the context of the first week they are out. Looking further down the line, it's really easy to see lategame T will end up the weakest when people learn more defensive macro play and games will always trend to go longer as people learn the game more and die less to rushes.
I mean, most good Zergs can already defend into 50-60 drones extremely easily and then they are just playing on god mode vs Terran with nerfed mules.
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On October 13 2015 01:06 avilo wrote: I have to make this thread because playing in the beta right now as Terran is quite frustrating and the continual nerfing of Terran as an entire race through their economy is quite frustrating.
What am i talking about?
Mules were nerfed to bring in less income. Chrono was nerfed. Larva inject was nerfed. The problem?
The above macro mechanics ARE NOT EQUAL AT ALL STAGES IN THE GAME.
The above nerfs that have occurred have made Terran the undisputed weakest race intrinsically, with Protoss in second, and Zerg as god tier again.
The reasons?
Let me explain - the way SC2 works is a player wants to reach their 50-60 worker economy and then can focus on building mostly military units.
Mules have always been essential for Terran to compete with the other two races macro mechanics. That extra income may not seem like a lot, but even early game missing a few hundred minerals is a huge hit to the entire race because it means certain things that were necessary to survive early game, especially versus P/Z all-ins you cannot afford now (such as a simple depot wall). This drastically impacts the game.
MACRO MECHANICS ARE NOT EQUAL I SAY THIS AGAIN TO RE-EMPHASIZE IT.
Protoss took the second biggest hit to macro, because with nerfed chrono it'll take slightly longer to get to their desired worker count. But they are still in better shape than Terran because chrono has late game uses on buildings/production and once you do reach the desired worker count now you are playing versus a handicapped Terran.
Finally, Zerg is now the god tier race again. Nerfing larva inject to 3 does not matter at all because Zerg always have had some extra larva in many situations...but more importantly...Zerg will still reach their 50/60 drone count and now be playing versus both handicapped TErrans/Protosses because nothing changes with Zerg's economy at all. It's the same pre and post patch.
Blizzard needs to, ONCE AGAIN, stop nerfing the macro mechanics or doing anything to them at all arbitrarily and put them back to as they were.
In my games in beta, i am seeing about 80% Zerg players, 15% Protoss, and 5% Terrans. That is just a rough estimate from my own gameplay experiences. There are other things that need to be addressed asap, such as vipers/carriers/liberators, but i'll save that for another thread.
Once again, it's a numbers game when it comes to economy...i hope people will discuss the current macro mechanics and why they agree or disagree with my opinions on them.
I can only hope they are fully reverted back to normal again to restore some semblance of race balance to the game.
Avilo i am quite in shock.Terran got a smallest MM nerf and toss the biggest yet you act like Terran was hurt the most.I know you dont like to play bio but with the current mule small buff,bio is way to much cost efficent. Also lets not mention the fact that mass mule in late game is still abused after david kim said he KNOW its op(with 95% of the community), but i do think that they need to go back to HOTS MM since its too hard to balance the nerf to MM with chrono the same,nerf to late game mule hammer with cast ranage for mule,and the new inject.So if you think that the extra 5 mineral is what make Terran so week,i got no porblem to go back to HOTS stats since its way more balanced from what its now.Maybe it was a nerf to the mech player who needs lots of money since its cost alot but its a buff to all bio players
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It is hard to tell how balance is right now, I think it needs more time and testing. Terran seems to have a slight edge, but I am not 100% sure yet. GM distribution seems pretty even, just needs a few more zergs if anything.
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On October 13 2015 03:47 intense555 wrote: It is hard to tell how balance is right now, I think it needs more time and testing. Terran seems to have a slight edge, but I am not 100% sure yet. GM distribution seems pretty even, just needs a few more zergs if anything.
GM is favored with more of Protoss, then Terran and Zerg is in last place.
But somehow David Kim thinks Terran is the weakest.
He also thinks HotS is balanced and his afraid to fix SH cuz it could make Zerg to good.
Even tho Zerg has 4 players in Blizzcon and its consider underpowered by many.
So yeah.. logic doesn't apply at all, not like I expect that when they contradict their own words in community updates
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On October 13 2015 03:58 Daizer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 03:47 intense555 wrote: It is hard to tell how balance is right now, I think it needs more time and testing. Terran seems to have a slight edge, but I am not 100% sure yet. GM distribution seems pretty even, just needs a few more zergs if anything. GM is favored with more of Protoss, then Terran and Zerg is in last place. But somehow David Kim thinks Terran is the weakest. He also thinks HotS is balanced and his afraid to fix SH cuz it could make Zerg to good. Even tho Zerg has 4 players in Blizzcon and its consider underpowered by many. So yeah.. logic doesn't apply at all, not like I expect that when they contradict their own words in community updates Your posts seem to be about balance whining instead of constructive feedback a bit too often. Can you really claim imbalance (winrates in a certain race's favor) in the first place with such little experience and data?
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Avilo if you want to play a symmetrical RTS game, go play age of empires and please, spare us of your constant balance whine.
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On October 13 2015 03:03 avilo wrote: I mean, most good Zergs can already defend into 50-60 drones extremely easily and then they are just playing on god mode vs Terran with nerfed mules.
Stop, just please stop. Every post you make is a balance whine since WOL Beta. When Terran isn't weak vs Protoss, it is weak vs Zerg...reminds me of when we played in WOL Beta and you were complaining about imbalance then too. I guess it can be pretty hard to sit and do literally nothing all game atm in LOTV, that may be why your having a little issue with your cancer mech style.
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On October 13 2015 02:12 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 02:03 TimeSpiral wrote: I'd like to see MULE reverted to HotS, full efficiency.
I'd like to see Chronoboost's interface recerted to HotS, not sure on the efficiency.
Spawn Larva might be okay as it is. I don't know. I know that it can't be 4 larva.
Okay so you want Terran to have full HOTS efficiency mules... but for Protoss and Zerg to both have nerfed versions of their HOTS mechanics?? In what world is that fair???
Oh, well I don't know if would be fair, or if it would be balanced. But I'll explain my thought process: HotS level MM's will have a different affect on all of the match-ups because of how different the game plays. The 12-worker start, the diminished resources per base, and the myriad different unit stats, and of course, new units and abilities.
So while right on the surface giving Terran the HotS MULE while nerfing Spawn Larva and Chronoboost might just seem blatantly biased and unfair (still might be, mind you), they are in the context of a game that plays completely differently.
I also think that certain units/abilities being out of whack at the moment is severely obfuscating where the MMs need to be.
It is a fact that Chronoboost was nerfed the most. But did it have the most detrimental impact? That's hard to say because of how ridiculously strong the Adept, Warp Prism, PO, and Carriers are, atm. Once they balance out these units maybe the effects of the CB nerf will become more apparent.
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Pretty blatant stream advertisment if you ask me.
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avilo unfortunately can press the buttons and got himself the gm, even to me . . not a gm . . . a lot of what he says doesnt make any sense. when he was complaining terran were weakest race, teaja, maru and innovation were winning everything, while he got knocked out of his placement matches . . where am i going with this . . oh ye on topic
I dont think avilo can be happy with anything ,he complained way too much in hots . . when we all agree its pretty balanced that game, and the beta is just broke according to him . . so on the basis of everything ive said here. move along people nothing to see here but whatever you do dont go over to his stream out of morbid curiousity . . .winters still get 2-3k views . . i though we all hate him?
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On October 13 2015 06:02 Nerchio wrote: avilo please
pretty please?
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The responses in this thread are kind of disgusting. I would have expected this kind of reception on the Battle.net forums.
After completely fucking up the macro mechanics, not once, but twice in this beta, Blizzard seems to have finally grasped the notion that macro mechanics are not equal and cannot be adjusted "equally" without spawning a host of repercussions for racial balance. Finally. After 5 years of this game existing, they realize what anyone should have been able to say just by looking at what the macro mechanics do.
ITT: having witnessed Blizzard's repeated failures and lessons learned with the macro mechanics, plenty of people on TL - not on Battle.net, not on Reddit, on TL - still have no fucking clue.
If Terrans are in fact winning too much despite the Mule nerf, that DOESN'T MEAN THE MULE NERF IS FINE, it means that something else in the Terran line-up is so disproportionately strong that it's propping up Terran's gutted early game economy. So we're going to have dumb Terran losses in the early game, and then dumb Terran wins in the late game, or wherever the issue lies. But hey, as long as it's 50/50, right?!
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I'm just saying I'm having a lot of fun watching him stream right now. 0-7 with "the god tier race". I guess he has switched from "zerg is broken" to "protoss is even more broken". But to be fair, I would say that he is losing because he is actually trying to max on 3bases with only 50-60drones. And he is getting out-ecoed so hard every game. *hint* *hint*
Edit: Oh, most fun I'm having is with the "how can he afford all of this" comments. Yeah, how can the terran and protoss afford all of this when zerg is so much more god tier. Edit: "this dumbfuck has like random medivac drops, killing my bases without reason"... holy fuck, Terran has drops now? WUT? WUUUUTTTT???!!!! time for bed, seen enough diamonds trash him tonight
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The fact that this guy can say zerg is "god tier" in the beta right now shows just how stupid he is. Maybe if he didn't play passive as fuck all the time he would realize killing zerg with terran is pretty fucking easy.
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I do like variety but asymmetry in SC2 has proven time and time again on how it makes the game volatile (the macro boosters make this worse). On paper it sounds intriguing but to me its the source of frustration and whining because at certain parts of the game or scenarios, the other player feels hapless to do anything i.e. feel imba unless knew beforehand.
I guess the difference from its predecessor is that this game takes the difference to a whole new level. I mean in the old game, the races were alot more similiar to one another (even the economy) than SC2 but the differences in gameplay and mechanics didn't get affected too much.
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Maybe the real problem is that Blizzard refuses to properly scale things. Honestly what's wrong with adding 1,2 hp to a unit, or decreases the mule's mining time by 3 seconds, or slowing the medievac down by 3-4 percent, having chrono last 1 second longer, having larva pop out 2 seconds later.
I understand the concept of drastically changing something to get an overall effect that has on the game in order to balance it initially. Like they are doing to the adept currently. But why can't they fine tune. Fine tune that shit.
There actual might be a good counter point against this argument. I was just throwing it out there.
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