Germanwings Airbus crashed in French Alps - Page 12
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lohdon
170 Posts
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shin ken
Germany612 Posts
On March 26 2015 23:28 sharkie wrote: wtf what an egoistic human person do you have to be to kill 149 other people beside yourself to have the guts to suicide? What a fucking coward, he killed so many innocent people, I will never ever understand the actions of suiciding while harming others by doing that For some* commiting suicide is a very binary decision. If they're past the decision everything else will be completely unimportant to them. Think about it like a movie: Everything you ever saw and everything you ever experienced was in your life and when it's over it's over. The whole universe might as well cease to exist in the moment you close your eyes forever. What happens to a character in a film (or the whole film universe) when the film ends? That's why this co-pilot could do it. Or why a father can kill himself in front of the eyes of his family. It's fucked up but that's the result, if you don't care at all anymore. Mr. L. just decided, that crashing headfirst into a rock with several hundred knots is a convenient and painless way to die. Those 149 other people weren't even part of the equasion. You can say what you want about religion, it has caused quite some misery in this world, but it helped to prevent those deterministic thought processes. (* of course most people still behave like decent human beings even if they "choose" death.) | ||
Dagobert
Netherlands1858 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On March 27 2015 07:40 lohdon wrote: It's so damn stupid that everyone claims to be an expert on flight safety now and how obvious it is that xy-fact shouldn't be like that but look at the numbers flying is incredibly safe. Not saying we can't learn anything from incidents like this to make it even more safe. yes, flying is incredibly safe. The safest there is I believe. This past year and now has probably been the worst its been for the industry in a long time. | ||
Agathon
France1505 Posts
On March 27 2015 09:55 shin ken wrote: For some* commiting suicide is a very binary decision. If they're past the decision everything else will be completely unimportant to them. Think about it like a movie: Everything you ever saw and everything you ever experienced was in your life and when it's over it's over. The whole universe might as well cease to exist in the moment you close your eyes forever. What happens to a character in a film (or the whole film universe) when the film ends? That's why this co-pilot could do it. Or why a father can kill himself in front of the eyes of his family. It's fucked up but that's the result, if you don't care at all anymore. Mr. L. just decided, that crashing headfirst into a rock with several hundred knots is a convenient and painless way to die. Those 149 other people weren't even part of the equasion. You can say what you want about religion, it has caused quite some misery in this world, but it helped to prevent those deterministic thought processes. (* of course most people still behave like decent human beings even if they "choose" death.) "You can say what you want about religion, it has caused quite some misery in this world, but it helped to prevent those deterministic thought processes." AFAIK his mother is deeply involved in Lutherian church. The anticlerical part of me have a facepalm, the french citizen part of me is sad and hopeless. | ||
QuantumTeleportation
United States119 Posts
If it's true, then I just can't understand why anyone would do that... taking 149 other lives with them. I could understand if this was an accident, but this was intentional... with the intention to kill himself AND others (or just being suicidal and indifferent to other people's lives). What are the chances that the pilot became unconscious? However I guess this is unlikely as that doesn't explain why the door was locked. So all evidence right now points to this all being planned. | ||
GreenHorizons
United States22117 Posts
On March 27 2015 13:39 QuantumTeleportation wrote: Hmm so the co-pilot's actions were intentional? If it's true, then I just can't understand why anyone would do that... taking 149 other lives with them. I could understand if this was an accident, but this was intentional... with the intention to kill himself AND others (or just being suicidal and indifferent to other people's lives). What are the chances that the pilot became unconscious? However I guess this is unlikely as that doesn't explain why the door was locked. So all evidence right now points to this all being planned. I think one question is, if his reason was to draw attention to some issue (overworked pilots, antisemitism, etc...) would we really want to have it reported on? Or would that essentially be exactly what he wanted? | ||
Kleinmuuhg
Vanuatu4091 Posts
On March 27 2015 13:39 QuantumTeleportation wrote: Hmm so the co-pilot's actions were intentional? If it's true, then I just can't understand why anyone would do that... taking 149 other lives with them. I could understand if this was an accident, but this was intentional... with the intention to kill himself AND others (or just being suicidal and indifferent to other people's lives). What are the chances that the pilot became unconscious? However I guess this is unlikely as that doesn't explain why the door was locked. So all evidence right now points to this all being planned. if he was unconscious then the plane woulnt have left altitude.thats the crucial point it leaving altitude was no accident and in doing so and not also changing direction or signaling any technical defect i dont see any other explanation than the one we have. | ||
FFGenerations
7088 Posts
maybe we will know if they check his internet history/background, it might be telling | ||
plgElwood
Germany518 Posts
The "Always 2 man" procedure might have prevented it, because then he would not have been alone and either had to kill or severely hurt the other person in the cockpit before his actions. And those people seek convenient fast death, and the power that no one can stop them. Any risk or chance of failure to this and they won't do it. For the future people might feel safer if there are always 2 people in the cockpit, and also this would likely prevent somebody to copy the scenario. German law does not allow anyone unqualified to operate in the Cockpit (or even being there for no reason), and also bringing crew to the cockpit increases the chance of somebody with malintent can enter the cockpit. Or even psychopathic crew-members with butterknives or strings that KO the pilot in his seat. | ||
Maenander
Germany4919 Posts
On March 27 2015 17:57 FFGenerations wrote: i can imagine if you're very depressed (ill) to the point of psychotic thoughts (feasible) that sitting in an airplane cockpit over some mountains would be quite alluring maybe we will know if they check his internet history/background, it might be telling Maybe, but one has to be devoid of all empathy for the other human beings on board to go through with it. On March 27 2015 18:18 plgElwood wrote: The "Always 2 man" procedure might have prevented it, because then he would not have been alone and either had to kill or severely hurt the other person in the cockpit before his actions. And those people seek convenient fast death, and the power that no one can stop them. Any risk or chance of failure to this and they won't do it. I agree, he would have had to cross a very different mental threshold in order to use physical violence against another person, I doubt he could have done it. | ||
Disregard
China10252 Posts
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FFGenerations
7088 Posts
On March 27 2015 18:19 Maenander wrote: Maybe, but one has to be devoid of all empathy for the other human beings on board to go through with it. no shit, this is why actual depression is such a dangerous illness. it fucks with your chemicals and at its worst moments can make you simply "not care" about anything. the guy was probably no different to any of us...in both his strengths and his weaknesses. "The World Health Organisation estimates that each year approximately one million people die from suicide, which represents one death every 40 seconds." | ||
WonnaPlay
Netherlands912 Posts
On March 27 2015 05:51 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: You know what also can't land itself? A plane that's getting crashed by the pilot. The plane doesn't have to land at a dangerous airport. It can take the best one within the fuel range it has. If it has to try because it's out of fuel it still beats 100 % chance of death because of crazy. Override control is integrated into the planes computer which has a specific encrypted code in it and the system has access to both the autopilot, FBW as well as navigation systems. In case of an emergency there's already more than one flight controller on the case. If 2 (or 3 or 4,5,6 however many you think is necessary) enter the flight number and their personal code the encrypted code is sent to the plane which activates the system. The personal codes are sent to the airports computer in order to retrieve the encrypted override code and send it to the plane. This deactivates FBW, makes the plane check which airports are in fuel range, selects one airport, plots a course in the autopilot to get there and put the plane in the correct approach angle and activates auto-landing to scan for ILS or whatever system it has. If the plane is out of radio range and doesn't have satellite communications for some reason then you can't activate the system and your fucked. Edit: I guess you could also have the override code open the cockpit door if you wanted to. I trust computers more than humans tho. Edit 2: An auto-land override also prevents hijackers if they somehow manage to get control of the plane. Sorry if I come across as a total dick, but this is probably one of the worst ideas, which should never* be implemented. In this current day and age, we have no guarantee, nor will we in the near future to guarantee such technique. Even if we are able to land that plan in the most difficult airport there is, you're opening yourself to 1.000.000 security risks. However, your train of thought is correct. I'd agree fully with you, if it weren't for the following facts; a] Anything with a network connection is hackable. b] Current radio signals are not safe at all. c] Sensors can be horribly wrong, as shown in that report from the other Airbus A320 (frozen sensors equals crazy unexpected dive from airplane). d] Hijackers can hijack 1.000 planes at the same time instead of 2-3, with the same manpower. (Force themselves into airtraffic control with 15-20 terrorists and threaten/torture the air traffic team, untill they get the codes. Crashing all 1000 planes at once. As long as these points are uncertain. It is impossible to implement such a technique. I would also want to rely on computers as you, however we just can't yet. *As long as security is behind in terms of hackability. | ||
zatic
Zurich15286 Posts
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States22117 Posts
If it is I think it's questionable to release that kind of information, though I'm not sure which way I would come down on it myself. If it's true, it's going to steer the discussion away from the door and towards a much larger issue of mental health (possibly prescription medication too). Or maybe people stick to the door thing? | ||
zatic
Zurich15286 Posts
Apparently the guy was in treatment, but kept it secret from his employer. He was also written off at the time, which he also kept a secret on his job. | ||
NovaTheFeared
United States7208 Posts
It's important that you don't have a single failure point where one person can crash the plane from inside with others unable to stop him/her. | ||
-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On March 27 2015 04:46 plgElwood wrote: Also it must have been horrifying for the pilot. He could not get in the cockpit, he realizes the descent, he can not try to break the door without either alarming all the passengers to incoming doom and or causing the first officer to begin even a steeper descent. Apparently he decided to accept his fade without striking panic in everyone. A thing I read this morning said the recordings suggest that he may have tried to break down the door with the emergency axe. >_> On March 27 2015 05:17 oBlade wrote: This isn't a better solution, and it isn't even necessarily as good as what we have now. If a pilot can open the locked door from the outside, that applies just as much to a crazy pilot breaking into the cockpit he was locked out of as it does to a pilot trying to get into the cockpit because a crazy pilot locked him out. And when the pilot is outside of the cockpit, bad people can coerce him to open the door, which defeats the point of impenetrable doors to protect the cockpit from hijackings in the first place. According to a CNN article linked on the BBC (can't find it right now) this actually happened a few years ago. Some US flight. The Captain went nuts (ranting something about "we need to take this plane down" and he didn't mean for a landing) and the Co-Pilot managed to persuade him to leave the cockpit, upon which he immediately locked the door and went for an emergency landing at the nearest airport whilst half a dozen passengers subdued the Captain. He apparently got taken off by police whilst tied to a chair or something, and sent to hospital. On March 27 2015 18:41 FFGenerations wrote: no shit, this is why actual depression is such a dangerous illness. it fucks with your chemicals and at its worst moments can make you simply "not care" about anything. the guy was probably no different to any of us...in both his strengths and his weaknesses. "The World Health Organisation estimates that each year approximately one million people die from suicide, which represents one death every 40 seconds." This is part of where I get severely irritated when I see people who think depression is just "being sad" and that you can "get over it". Its a neurological condition and can have very severe consequences depending on how badly it effects you. And then there's the tiny minority of cases where it leads to tragedy like this. Anyway I was somewhat amazed to find that its not actually a requirement for there to be two people in the cockpit at all times. You'd think that would be standard. I'm also somewhat questioning the wisdom of not having everything the pilots need actually in the cockpit with them so they don't have to leave it. There should be very little reason for anyone to go in or come out of the cockpit of a plane in flight... | ||
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