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On October 15 2014 03:17 Kyuukyuu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 02:15 ShrieK wrote:On October 14 2014 14:26 VayneAuthority wrote: well the selling points on smash 4 are
1. the sheer variety of viable characters, even the biggest complainers wont be able to say "lol fox and marth" they have for the most part done a very good job balancing this roster with a few obvious outliers. which leads to the other selling point...
2. Actually able to make patch updates if they decide to go this route and nerf and buff characters as needed which is something the competitive scene for smash has lacked.
I dont need to outline what melee holds over this game because its obvious but the potential is there. If only melee did a better job at balancing speed and power like this game does. You can actually play stuff like bowser and DK and not feel helpless. It is really baffling how bad the slow characters are in Melee. Like, Falcon has knee and Fox has usmash, which are basically as powerful as anything Bowser/DK have, but the characters are 10x faster. Not to mention all the other things that are awful about big characters like their shields, hurtboxes, etc. Yeah, DK and Bowser don't even really have strong moves on average, which is pretty dumb. DK has his punch and Bowser his fsmash/uair and that's about it; it's pretty funny really what kind of thought process must have gone into balancing that. DK's tilts and both their nairs are laughable in particular. On the other hand Ganondorf has a ton of strong moves and is the only (kinda not really) viable one of the big characters. Some of what was done differently that has allowed stronger characters to become much more even with faster characters in Sm4sh are exactly the traits that some people are uncomfortable with. The further blast zones (at least on battlefield and FD, perhaps not Yoshi's Island. I honestly can't tell on that one), the lower shield stun and faster dropping of shields that gives overall slower characters an evenly fast option to switch from defensive play to counterattacking, overall improved recoveries especially on characters who were previously lacking in that quality, and the removal of edge-hogging - which arguably benefited fast characters who could quickly get to a ledge and hog it from a distance.
To use the famous changes to Bowser to illustrate this, his fsmash isn't really any slower than in melee, but can finish off the side just as quickly, despite the further blast zones. A well-positioned bair can kill below 60 off the side, and flying slam, a command grab, will reliably kill middleweight characters off the top before 100. His grabs out of shield can easily get someone near the edge, which can mean death from the bair followup if they're at medium-high percent. Edge guarding against him now requires going toe-to-toe against his powerful aerials and improved upB offstage, instead of just hogging his ledge. And until he is at very high percentages, that is what you will have to do, as most characters have trouble finishing off a heavyweight early in the stock without managing to combo into a meteor.
I agree with the detractors who feel that shield stun is somewhat too low, along with the dropping of shields. Hopefully that can be improved with a slight numerical tweak in a patch. It certainly wouldn't take a lot of effort. However, the further blast zones are stage-dependent. Turning battlefield into N64 dream land isn't self-evidently bad. As long as some maps still have reasonable blast zones (Smashville, Castle Siege, and Halberd come to mind, if unchanged from Brawl. Town and Country is another likely candidate.), the maps with really wide blast zones merely serve as an interesting counterpick, allowing characters with better better finishers and higher weight to have an advantage over those with less weight and good gimping games, which in turn have an advantage against characters with neither. I defend the removal of edge hogging. I always hated seeing a stock end that way in Melee and PM. It was very anticlimactic. It especially seems to harm some sluggish characters with milquetoast upB trajectories, and so I'm happy to see it changed.
I openly concede that the 3DS stage list is terrible, and that the spammability of air dodges will need to be dealt with via patching eventually to improve combo ability for characters other than the 6-9 or so who can combo reliably currently.
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I would be beyond surprised if either of those things ever got looked at, let alone patched.
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yea after I thought about it a bit I am LOL'ing at the thought of them ever putting in any work to help smash 4 become competitive when they say every chance they get that it is a casual party game and nothing more.
Like they obviously dont give a shit to actually put through ike in this current iteration. If you thought he was bad in brawl he is even worse in smash 4, they legit nerfed him lol. I dont think any character even comes close to how bad he is.
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Smash 4 at EVO right after release would just be Brawl 2008 all over again... and that was beyond painful.
Ceee Peee Uuuuuu!
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It'll be way too early... forget that. Melee at least one more year and then we figure out what to do. Let the game at least develop for a year before we place it in the most prestigious FGC tournament
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On October 07 2014 21:09 Flicky wrote: I think anyone who was a big Brood War fan should support the Melee cause. It's very similar to the battle we already lost.
the pain hurts
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Nah, people can do anything competitively, no one is going to agree that Melee will be the "competitive version" haha. 8 player makes the huge stages actually viable though, should be fun.
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On October 15 2014 08:31 VayneAuthority wrote: yea after I thought about it a bit I am LOL'ing at the thought of them ever putting in any work to help smash 4 become competitive when they say every chance they get that it is a casual party game and nothing more.
Like they obviously dont give a shit to actually put through ike in this current iteration. If you thought he was bad in brawl he is even worse in smash 4, they legit nerfed him lol. I dont think any character even comes close to how bad he is.
The whining is real.
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On October 26 2014 16:22 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 08:31 VayneAuthority wrote: yea after I thought about it a bit I am LOL'ing at the thought of them ever putting in any work to help smash 4 become competitive when they say every chance they get that it is a casual party game and nothing more.
Like they obviously dont give a shit to actually put through ike in this current iteration. If you thought he was bad in brawl he is even worse in smash 4, they legit nerfed him lol. I dont think any character even comes close to how bad he is. The whining is real.
find the untrue statement in my post, it isn't whining. all facts.
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On October 26 2014 23:14 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2014 16:22 Crownlol wrote:On October 15 2014 08:31 VayneAuthority wrote: yea after I thought about it a bit I am LOL'ing at the thought of them ever putting in any work to help smash 4 become competitive when they say every chance they get that it is a casual party game and nothing more.
Like they obviously dont give a shit to actually put through ike in this current iteration. If you thought he was bad in brawl he is even worse in smash 4, they legit nerfed him lol. I dont think any character even comes close to how bad he is. The whining is real. find the untrue statement in my post, it isn't whining. all facts.
I don't know if we have enough evidence to conclude that Ike is the worst character.
Also, I played/ try to play as Ness throughout the first three Super Smash Bros. games, so I don't think your situation is quite so terrible lol.
It would be nice if Nintendo pushed a competitive focus if they want the community to replace Melee/ PM/ Brawl with Smash 4 in tournaments (or at least, seriously consider adding Smash 4 into the mix), but Nintendo has historically been about purposely creating party/ family games, rather than true pro-gameresque competition. Hopefully, the competitive Smash scene will be able to work with what Nintendo gives them for Smash 4 (or just make Project4/ Project Smash4 lol).
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On October 26 2014 23:14 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2014 16:22 Crownlol wrote:On October 15 2014 08:31 VayneAuthority wrote: yea after I thought about it a bit I am LOL'ing at the thought of them ever putting in any work to help smash 4 become competitive when they say every chance they get that it is a casual party game and nothing more.
Like they obviously dont give a shit to actually put through ike in this current iteration. If you thought he was bad in brawl he is even worse in smash 4, they legit nerfed him lol. I dont think any character even comes close to how bad he is. The whining is real. find the untrue statement in my post, it isn't whining. all facts.
Ok.
1. [They won't ever] put in any work to help smash 4 become competitive.
Nintendo has already put significant resources of time and money into sponsoring a tournament at E3. They wouldn't even know that there was a scene or who the top players are if they didn't actively spend money researching that.
2. ...it is a casual party game and nothing more.
Please show me where they stated that Smash4 is designed to never be competitive. Because that's literally what you're claiming.
3. They obviously don't give a shit to put through ike in this current iteration.
Please show me where they haven't spent developer hours on balancing Ike. I'll wait.
4. I don't think any character comes close to as bad as he is.
So, you've seen lots and lots of competitive results right? All those tournaments and games of Smash 4 that you've been hammering out? So you *definitely know* the tierlist, what his good/bad matchups are, which maps are bad for him, and all the ways that he can be played? Really? It'd be awesome if you shared with the class.
Frankly, you sound like the goddamn WoW Vanilla forums where players of a class would simply say "WAAAAAH, BLIZZ HATES SHAMANS" regardless of if they actually raided/pvp'd at a top level or not. Further, you're using random conjecture and presenting it as fact with exactly zero data.
So yes, you're just whining.
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It would be nice if Nintendo pushed a competitive focus if they want the community to replace Melee/ PM/ Brawl with Smash 4 in tournaments (or at least, seriously consider adding Smash 4 into the mix), but Nintendo has historically been about purposely creating party/ family games, rather than true pro-gameresque competition. Hopefully, the competitive Smash scene will be able to work with what Nintendo gives them for Smash 4 (or just make Project4/ Project Smash4 lol).
Ah, some rational thought in this thread.
I think you have every reason to be concerned that Nintendo hasn't truly committed to making Smash4 a viable tournament game. They've acknowledged the tournament scene, but they're *well* aware that popular party games with replay value will be their bread and butter, not niche competitive fighting games.
My expectation is that Nintendo will spend the vast majority of their assets to make all the new game modes fun and replayable, while at least expending some to ensure a competitive environment should people wish to play that.
Certainly they've seen the resurgence in popularity of their game, and with the Wii U struggling, Smash4 *needs* to be a hit. Just look at how much has been added, Smash 4 is a GIGANTIC leap from all other smash games. As long as there isn't tripping and other random crap, I'm extremely excited for it.
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On October 28 2014 06:59 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote + It would be nice if Nintendo pushed a competitive focus if they want the community to replace Melee/ PM/ Brawl with Smash 4 in tournaments (or at least, seriously consider adding Smash 4 into the mix), but Nintendo has historically been about purposely creating party/ family games, rather than true pro-gameresque competition. Hopefully, the competitive Smash scene will be able to work with what Nintendo gives them for Smash 4 (or just make Project4/ Project Smash4 lol).
Ah, some rational thought in this thread. I think you have every reason to be concerned that Nintendo hasn't truly committed to making Smash4 a viable tournament game. They've acknowledged the tournament scene, but they're *well* aware that popular party games with replay value will be their bread and butter, not niche competitive fighting games. My expectation is that Nintendo will spend the vast majority of their assets to make all the new game modes fun and replayable, while at least expending some to ensure a competitive environment should people wish to play that. Certainly they've seen the resurgence in popularity of their game, and with the Wii U struggling, Smash4 *needs* to be a hit. Just look at how much has been added, Smash 4 is a GIGANTIC leap from all other smash games. As long as there isn't tripping and other random crap, I'm extremely excited for it.
Nintendo hosted Brawl tournaments upon release too. They clearly want to get more competitive presence for Smash 4 with their smash club whatever and For Glory and all that jazz but let's not get ahead of ourselves.
As for how much has been added, there's really not a lot compared to previous iterations. Single player content is a joke, there's a lot of straight up ported music rather than original, tons of reused character animations/frames/etc., very little changes to most returning characters (for the first time in a smash game). Much as I disliked Brawl, it had new content in spades. Game modes aren't what make smash smash -- how many times did you play Curry Mode and Single Button Melee and Coin Battle? It's going to take more than that to convince me this isn't the most rehashed Smash game so far.
e: They did a great job with the net code though.
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On October 28 2014 06:50 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2014 23:14 VayneAuthority wrote:On October 26 2014 16:22 Crownlol wrote:On October 15 2014 08:31 VayneAuthority wrote: yea after I thought about it a bit I am LOL'ing at the thought of them ever putting in any work to help smash 4 become competitive when they say every chance they get that it is a casual party game and nothing more.
Like they obviously dont give a shit to actually put through ike in this current iteration. If you thought he was bad in brawl he is even worse in smash 4, they legit nerfed him lol. I dont think any character even comes close to how bad he is. The whining is real. find the untrue statement in my post, it isn't whining. all facts. Ok. Nintendo has already put significant resources of time and money into sponsoring a tournament at E3. They wouldn't even know that there was a scene or who the top players are if they didn't actively spend money researching that. Please show me where they stated that Smash4 is designed to never be competitive. Because that's literally what you're claiming. Show nested quote + 3. They obviously don't give a shit to put through ike in this current iteration. Please show me where they haven't spent developer hours on balancing Ike. I'll wait. So, you've seen lots and lots of competitive results right? All those tournaments and games of Smash 4 that you've been hammering out? So you *definitely know* the tierlist, what his good/bad matchups are, which maps are bad for him, and all the ways that he can be played? Really? It'd be awesome if you shared with the class. Frankly, you sound like the goddamn WoW Vanilla forums where players of a class would simply say "WAAAAAH, BLIZZ HATES SHAMANS" regardless of if they actually raided/pvp'd at a top level or not. Further, you're using random conjecture and presenting it as fact with exactly zero data. So yes, you're just whining.
if you're clueless dont even bother talking to me, the creator of the game has said that wavedashing and all the other tech in melee was not meant to be hence why it was taken out for brawl as they see it more as a casual game then a competitive one.
Anyone that even has played smash 4 for only a week knows ike is near the bottom of the list. He was trash in brawl and you can simply look at the fuckin wiki but that's probably too difficult for some one like you.
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Ike_(SSB4) He lost power with barely noticable changes in speed/lag frames he is still complete garbage. If you aren't an ike main gtfo.
Here's another source for you just so you can feel like a dumbass
http://www.nintendo-insider.com/2014/09/08/sakurai-on-super-smash-bros-melee-tournaments-and-shortcomings/
5th paragraph, l8er nerd
User was warned for this post
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On October 28 2014 09:35 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2014 06:50 Crownlol wrote:On October 26 2014 23:14 VayneAuthority wrote:On October 26 2014 16:22 Crownlol wrote:On October 15 2014 08:31 VayneAuthority wrote: yea after I thought about it a bit I am LOL'ing at the thought of them ever putting in any work to help smash 4 become competitive when they say every chance they get that it is a casual party game and nothing more.
Like they obviously dont give a shit to actually put through ike in this current iteration. If you thought he was bad in brawl he is even worse in smash 4, they legit nerfed him lol. I dont think any character even comes close to how bad he is. The whining is real. find the untrue statement in my post, it isn't whining. all facts. Ok. 1. [They won't ever] put in any work to help smash 4 become competitive. Nintendo has already put significant resources of time and money into sponsoring a tournament at E3. They wouldn't even know that there was a scene or who the top players are if they didn't actively spend money researching that. 2. ...it is a casual party game and nothing more. Please show me where they stated that Smash4 is designed to never be competitive. Because that's literally what you're claiming. 3. They obviously don't give a shit to put through ike in this current iteration. Please show me where they haven't spent developer hours on balancing Ike. I'll wait. 4. I don't think any character comes close to as bad as he is. So, you've seen lots and lots of competitive results right? All those tournaments and games of Smash 4 that you've been hammering out? So you *definitely know* the tierlist, what his good/bad matchups are, which maps are bad for him, and all the ways that he can be played? Really? It'd be awesome if you shared with the class. Frankly, you sound like the goddamn WoW Vanilla forums where players of a class would simply say "WAAAAAH, BLIZZ HATES SHAMANS" regardless of if they actually raided/pvp'd at a top level or not. Further, you're using random conjecture and presenting it as fact with exactly zero data. So yes, you're just whining. if you're clueless dont even bother talking to me, the creator of the game has said that wavedashing and all the other tech in melee was not meant to be hence why it was taken out for brawl as they see it more as a casual game then a competitive one. Anyone that even has played smash 4 for only a week knows ike is near the bottom of the list. He was trash in brawl and you can simply look at the fuckin wiki but that's probably too difficult for some one like you. http://www.ssbwiki.com/Ike_(SSB4) He lost power with barely noticable changes in speed/lag frames he is still complete garbage. If you aren't an ike main gtfo. Here's another source for you just so you can feel like a dumbass http://www.nintendo-insider.com/2014/09/08/sakurai-on-super-smash-bros-melee-tournaments-and-shortcomings/5th paragraph, l8er nerd
Why do you have to be such a jackass? You can disagree, but at least be respectful..
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Wonder how much say Nintendo has in this. If they are pushing it, probably going to be sm4sh at EVO.
I do hope for melee to be the main game though, its too early for sm4sh imo. I like the idea of it just having a expedition match.
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On October 28 2014 09:35 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2014 06:50 Crownlol wrote:On October 26 2014 23:14 VayneAuthority wrote:On October 26 2014 16:22 Crownlol wrote:On October 15 2014 08:31 VayneAuthority wrote: yea after I thought about it a bit I am LOL'ing at the thought of them ever putting in any work to help smash 4 become competitive when they say every chance they get that it is a casual party game and nothing more.
Like they obviously dont give a shit to actually put through ike in this current iteration. If you thought he was bad in brawl he is even worse in smash 4, they legit nerfed him lol. I dont think any character even comes close to how bad he is. The whining is real. find the untrue statement in my post, it isn't whining. all facts. Ok. 1. [They won't ever] put in any work to help smash 4 become competitive. Nintendo has already put significant resources of time and money into sponsoring a tournament at E3. They wouldn't even know that there was a scene or who the top players are if they didn't actively spend money researching that. 2. ...it is a casual party game and nothing more. Please show me where they stated that Smash4 is designed to never be competitive. Because that's literally what you're claiming. 3. They obviously don't give a shit to put through ike in this current iteration. Please show me where they haven't spent developer hours on balancing Ike. I'll wait. 4. I don't think any character comes close to as bad as he is. So, you've seen lots and lots of competitive results right? All those tournaments and games of Smash 4 that you've been hammering out? So you *definitely know* the tierlist, what his good/bad matchups are, which maps are bad for him, and all the ways that he can be played? Really? It'd be awesome if you shared with the class. Frankly, you sound like the goddamn WoW Vanilla forums where players of a class would simply say "WAAAAAH, BLIZZ HATES SHAMANS" regardless of if they actually raided/pvp'd at a top level or not. Further, you're using random conjecture and presenting it as fact with exactly zero data. So yes, you're just whining. if you're clueless dont even bother talking to me, the creator of the game has said that wavedashing and all the other tech in melee was not meant to be hence why it was taken out for brawl as they see it more as a casual game then a competitive one. Anyone that even has played smash 4 for only a week knows ike is near the bottom of the list. He was trash in brawl and you can simply look at the fuckin wiki but that's probably too difficult for some one like you. http://www.ssbwiki.com/Ike_(SSB4) He lost power with barely noticable changes in speed/lag frames he is still complete garbage. If you aren't an ike main gtfo. Here's another source for you just so you can feel like a dumbass http://www.nintendo-insider.com/2014/09/08/sakurai-on-super-smash-bros-melee-tournaments-and-shortcomings/5th paragraph, l8er nerd User was warned for this post
Go back to Tumblr and Reddit, Team Liquid isn't the place for you.
Certainly you realize that L-canceling was a glitch in Smash 64, acknowledge, and added intentionally as a tech for Melee then?
User was warned for this post
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