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On October 07 2014 21:03 The_Zen_Man wrote:Hi guys, sorry for being absent for a while. I'm afraid i'm going to be absent a few hours after this as well, but after that I can play for real. I thought i should do a quick analysis on loafrey, as he seems the most scummy to my eyes. First of all, i don't particularly find it scummy that he was confused about the rules, and i kind of buy that the setup in a previous game, claiming was beneficial. But as stated before, saying that you are confirmed townie is very scummy behavior. It's almost like you rush to being as most town as possible. It's especially suspecting when you say it so early in the game. It might have been poorly worded or misinterpreted by others, but some of your behaviour after is also kind of strange. Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 15:13 loafery wrote:On October 07 2014 14:37 abuse wrote:
where on earth is the "good reasoning".
Why is it wrong to chase you.
How on earth can you trust them based something like that.
Since when is "haven't done anything suspicious" a town tell. If anything it's a scum tell.
"I'm sure they're capable" how the hell can you be sure of something like this at this point in the game. How can town be sure that someone else is town before N1 and after they have had no real conversation with them whatsoever.
there are so many things wrong with this post I don't even know how to end this I first thought there was 5/6 blue roles. I thought it was easy game. ff showed me it wasn't so. I admit my mistake and ff retracts his suspicions. If I were scum why would I even think of getting an easy win. I would havent mentioned anything at all. You're coming off as very over reactive to my posts. It's all good but I have done nothing wrong. Scum is trying to look as much of a town as possible, which includes trying to look like you are looking for a town win. As someone who has played this before, you should be well aware of this. Hell, even newcomers now this, so why do you use this faillogic? This is very scum behavior in my eyes. Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 15:59 loafery wrote:On October 07 2014 15:23 abuse wrote:On October 07 2014 15:13 loafery wrote:On October 07 2014 14:37 abuse wrote:
where on earth is the "good reasoning".
Why is it wrong to chase you.
How on earth can you trust them based something like that.
Since when is "haven't done anything suspicious" a town tell. If anything it's a scum tell.
"I'm sure they're capable" how the hell can you be sure of something like this at this point in the game. How can town be sure that someone else is town before N1 and after they have had no real conversation with them whatsoever.
there are so many things wrong with this post I don't even know how to end this I first thought there was 5/6 blue roles. I thought it was easy game. ff showed me it wasn't so. I admit my mistake and ff retracts his suspicions. If I were scum why would I even think of getting an easy win. I would havent mentioned anything at all. You're coming off as very over reactive to my posts. It's all good but I have done nothing wrong. I don't care what you did at that point. What I care is what you did afterwards. How the hell can you call yourself confirmed town for something like this. That is scummy beyond belief. Also all the things I mentioned in this post you quoted. You have not addressed any of the issues I point out. Please do so and do so well. Otherwise, no way in hell am I removing my vote from you. Right now it seems like you're using the excuse of a newbie to make everyone wear gloves while around you. You're signaling that you are definitely town based on a incredibly stupid reason which is in no way alignment indicative, you imply that people should not chase you or suspect you, you also trust 2 people in the game already, after no real interactions at all and you're trying to buddy them. All this makes absolutely no sense from a town mindset. It comes from a mindset of scum who wants to stay below radar and does not want people to read their posts and judge their posts. The goal of such a mindset, is "I want to get in as many towncircles as possible and stay below the radar" not "I want to find and lynch scum" I am not coming very overreactive. You slipped hard. And your defense so far was trash, and nonexisten. Really? would I be so blunt about it? Don't you think mafia would rather stay low and not post anything of worth to the discussion than being so open and starting discussion in any way possible. Your talking about very high tactics that would need a high skill cap to achieve for me to get into as many town circles. And I was on the radar from the start so I failed in going below the radar and am the center of attention. I think my reasons are legit in getting town reads from ff. He thought I gave valid reasons and realizing a scum mindset wouldn't act this way backed off. I think scum mindset there would pursue the matter no matter what because I did have dirt on my hands in proposing a mass claim and ff's actions to follow the post was very townesque to me. He had valid arguements against me to which I admit I was wrong and that was that. But the vibes I'm getting from you are...you are really trying hard to lynch me no matter what. I see you have your reasons for which I have answered, but I don't understand what more I can do to prove my innocence. Keep questioning more if you will. Anything I missed? There are many different ways to playing as mafia. Establishing yourself as open and creating discussion is very effective in lowering any suspicion. Also, as stated before, creating town circles does not need high skill caps. The last paragraph is also a little puzzling. Do you think abuse is mafia? Or is it simply a kind of dirt throw back at him for voting at you? Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 16:20 loafery wrote:On October 07 2014 15:25 Breshke wrote:
sorry guys ive been fairly sick so my sleep routine is all over the place at the moment.
Loafery why did you decide to refer to yourself as confirmed town? I was actually reading you as town until you said this. You shouldn't try to be using yourself misreading the setup to prove you are town it can easily be faked. Is there any reason why I can't call myself town? Those two seemed to read me as town so I followed suit. Calling yourself town and saying that you are "confirmed" town is two different things, and we need to make that distinction. I'm gonna post more when i get home and read more thoroughly trough the thread. I just wanted to make something quick in the meantime, as getting home might take a while.
Here is the argument. The argument in question is below the first loaf quote.
Had the quote included in the defense, but bad formatting made it unclear.
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On October 08 2014 21:55 The_Zen_Man wrote:
I said this in my previous posts, but town is supposed to post analysis and do reads on people. This is what town do.
This is one of the main issues I have with your post. Town does not care about posting analyses and giving reads. Town cares about catching scum. Posting analyses and giving reads is a result of trying to reach this goal. Your post on loaf seemed constructed to look townie, but it did not feel like you had the goal of catching scum. You were not looking to pressure loaf nor were you looking to lynch him. Mafia wants to hide behind townie posts. Your initial post was made to look townie, not to find scum. Hence you're scum.
On October 08 2014 21:55 The_Zen_Man wrote:Mafia does not want this, they want to town to have as little to go on as possible. And regarding why I posted it when I knew abuse had critisized loaf is because I wanted to analyse it from fresh eyes. It's always better to hear others point of view on the matter.
Mafia does not care that much about disrupting town play, their main goal is not to get caught. When you were analyzing loaf, you were looking at the interaction between loaf and abuse, right?
On October 08 2014 21:55 The_Zen_Man wrote:He then says I lied about knowing about abuses case. I admitted to the fact that i had not read trough the whole post carefully, but super then completely distorts this. He says I lied about that fact because i knew about abuses case, somehow implying that i have to know either all or none of abuses case. This makes no sense whatsoever. Either super is stupid or trying to get a case going, but it is possible for someone to read some and not all of his posts.
Why do you feel confident making a post on loaf when you have apparently not analyzed the rest of the interactions? Do you not feel like this is important?
On October 08 2014 21:55 The_Zen_Man wrote:Show nested quote +
On October 07 2014 15:13 loafery wrote:
Show nested quote +
I first thought there was 5/6 blue roles. I thought it was easy game. ff showed me it wasn't so. I admit my mistake and ff retracts his suspicions. If I were scum why would I even think of getting an easy win. I would havent mentioned anything at all.
You're coming off as very over reactive to my posts. It's all good but I have done nothing wrong.
Scum is trying to look as much of a town as possible, which includes trying to look like you are looking for a town win. As someone who has played this before, you should be well aware of this. Hell, even newcomers now this, so why do you use this faillogic? This is very scum behavior in my eyes.
I mentioned earlier that I had a argument that abuse had not made and this is the one I was talking about. To my knowledge abuse never mentioned the fact that loaf should now that scum would want to look like they want a town win. This creates a big hole in supers argument, as most of his votepost is based on me saying the same thing as abuse.
I honestly did not care much about your argument. I think it was pretty bad. You even believe that he was genuine about the whole "another game" thing, which means your argument doesn't make that much sense. For you to believe that loaf was saying "I first thought there was 5/6 blue roles. I thought it was easy game." is disingenuous you need to believe that the "I had such a setup during another game" was planned and fake, which you didn't.
Let me make one thing perfectly clear here: you sheeping abuse's reads PINGED me out. It is not the meat of my argument, though it does act as a foundation.
Here are my arguments against you:
- You had no intention of achieving anything with your post. Your post was simply made to make you look townie. This is mafia behavior.
- You either: 1) did not analyze the game fully before making a post or 2) blatantly lied about not reading abuse's push. I honestly think it's a bit of both. Both is scummy.
- You felt a need to rush content out, town cares about catching scum, not getting content out. This is another mafia thing to do.
One question Zen:
Why did you make the post on loaf?
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people, post up. not far till eod..
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##Unvote
@abuse - where's your vote? Double standards much?
I'll get a vote post with reasons here in a few.
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On October 09 2014 00:33 Superbia wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 21:55 The_Zen_Man wrote:
I said this in my previous posts, but town is supposed to post analysis and do reads on people. This is what town do. This is one of the main issues I have with your post. Town does not care about posting analyses and giving reads. Town cares about catching scum. Posting analyses and giving reads is a result of trying to reach this goal. Your post on loaf seemed constructed to look townie, but it did not feel like you had the goal of catching scum. You were not looking to pressure loaf nor were you looking to lynch him. Mafia wants to hide behind townie posts. Your initial post was made to look townie, not to find scum. Hence you're scum. Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 21:55 The_Zen_Man wrote:Mafia does not want this, they want to town to have as little to go on as possible. And regarding why I posted it when I knew abuse had critisized loaf is because I wanted to analyse it from fresh eyes. It's always better to hear others point of view on the matter. Mafia does not care that much about disrupting town play, their main goal is not to get caught. When you were analyzing loaf, you were looking at the interaction between loaf and abuse, right? Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 21:55 The_Zen_Man wrote:He then says I lied about knowing about abuses case. I admitted to the fact that i had not read trough the whole post carefully, but super then completely distorts this. He says I lied about that fact because i knew about abuses case, somehow implying that i have to know either all or none of abuses case. This makes no sense whatsoever. Either super is stupid or trying to get a case going, but it is possible for someone to read some and not all of his posts. Why do you feel confident making a post on loaf when you have apparently not analyzed the rest of the interactions? Do you not feel like this is important? Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 21:55 The_Zen_Man wrote:
On October 07 2014 15:13 loafery wrote:
Show nested quote +
I first thought there was 5/6 blue roles. I thought it was easy game. ff showed me it wasn't so. I admit my mistake and ff retracts his suspicions. If I were scum why would I even think of getting an easy win. I would havent mentioned anything at all.
You're coming off as very over reactive to my posts. It's all good but I have done nothing wrong.
Scum is trying to look as much of a town as possible, which includes trying to look like you are looking for a town win. As someone who has played this before, you should be well aware of this. Hell, even newcomers now this, so why do you use this faillogic? This is very scum behavior in my eyes.
I mentioned earlier that I had a argument that abuse had not made and this is the one I was talking about. To my knowledge abuse never mentioned the fact that loaf should now that scum would want to look like they want a town win. This creates a big hole in supers argument, as most of his votepost is based on me saying the same thing as abuse. I honestly did not care much about your argument. I think it was pretty bad. You even believe that he was genuine about the whole "another game" thing, which means your argument doesn't make that much sense. For you to believe that loaf was saying "I first thought there was 5/6 blue roles. I thought it was easy game." is disingenuous you need to believe that the "I had such a setup during another game" was planned and fake, which you didn't. Let me make one thing perfectly clear here: you sheeping abuse's reads PINGED me out. It is not the meat of my argument, though it does act as a foundation. Here are my arguments against you: - You had no intention of achieving anything with your post. Your post was simply made to make you look townie. This is mafia behavior. - You either: 1) did not analyze the game fully before making a post or 2) blatantly lied about not reading abuse's push. I honestly think it's a bit of both. Both is scummy. - You felt a need to rush content out, town cares about catching scum, not getting content out. This is another mafia thing to do. One question Zen: Why did you make the post on loaf?
Town cares very much about giving analysis and giving reads, as this is the primary way we figure out who is mafia. I pressured loaf with my FoS, but throwing votes that early often leads to dirt trowback. My first post was an analysis on loaf to try to figure out whether he is town or not. That is what town does. You on the other hand decided to simply say that you think he is town without giving any reasons or arguments as to why. This is what scum does.
You can call it bad all you want, it is an argument that is unique to my post, which makes mine different than abuses. Simply calling it bad without telling why is simply bad playing. And how can you critisize me for something you yourself did? You did not react on the 5/6 blue roles thing either. For the record, I did consider him lying but his explanation about it seemed credible, which is why I believed him.
Why wouldn't i want to do analysis on people to try to find out who the mafia is? Are you seriously telling people to not post reads and analysis if they do not meet a certain standard? If you are, then please explain why you haven't said anything about breshke doing what you essentially accuse me of doing? His post is more like abuses than mine and he is much less commited, but for some reason you completely ignore this and go solely after me? Townies do not ignore facts so they better fit with their pictures, scum do.
Also, one question super:
Why did you say loaf was town without giving any explanation as to why?
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## Vote The_Zen_Man
for now.
@Zen, the answer to your bolded question is in my large post in the superbia section.
I've also mentioned this in my large post, but why are you afraid of dirt throwback? Dirt throwback is the best way other townies can see the person responds to pressure, which often gives more information than the push itself.
dust, please say something and vote for somebody, to avoid you being modkilled...
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Vote count:
Fecalfeast (1): Breshke, Breshke
The_Zen_Man (3): Superbia, Fecalfeast, Breshke, abuse
dusts (0): Rad
loafery (1): abuse, Elvis!
Superbia (2): loafery, The_Zen_Man
Not voting (2): dusts, Rad
Currently, The_Zen_Man is set to be lynched.
Deadline is Wednesday, Oct 08 9:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00) (in ). Voting is mandatory!
If there are errors, please let us know.
+ Show Spoiler [Vote counter log] +VOTE: abuse voted loafery ( post) VOTE: Elvis! voted loafery ( post) VOTE: Superbia voted The_Zen_Man ( post) VOTE: Fecalfeast voted The_zen_man (The_Zen_Man) ( post) VOTE: Breshke voted The_Zen_Man ( post) VOTE: loafery voted Superbia ( post) WARNING: Breshke changed vote without unvote ( post) VOTE: Breshke unvoted The_Zen_Man ( post) VOTE: Breshke voted Fecalfeast ( post) VOTE: Breshke unvoted Fecalfeast ( post) VOTE: Breshke voted Fecalfeast ( post) VOTE: abuse unvoted loafery ( post) VOTE: Rad voted dusts ( post) VOTE: The_Zen_Man voted Superbia ( post) VOTE: Rad unvoted dusts ( post) VOTE: abuse voted The_Zen_Man ( post)
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On October 09 2014 02:17 The_Zen_Man wrote:Town cares very much about giving analysis and giving reads, as this is the primary way we figure out who is mafia. I pressured loaf with my FoS, but throwing votes that early often leads to dirt trowback. My first post was an analysis on loaf to try to figure out whether he is town or not. That is what town does. You on the other hand decided to simply say that you think he is town without giving any reasons or arguments as to why. This is what scum does.
If you were looking to pressure loaf with your push, then why did you give abuse shit for pushing on loaf "too hard" (i.e. pressuring him)? Moreover, what did you get from pressuring loaf? I'm genuinely curious.
On October 09 2014 02:17 The_Zen_Man wrote:You can call it bad all you want, it is an argument that is unique to my post, which makes mine different than abuses. Simply calling it bad without telling why is simply bad playing. And how can you critisize me for something you yourself did? You did not react on the 5/6 blue roles thing either. For the record, I did consider him lying but his explanation about it seemed credible, which is why I believed him.
The argument is bad because it relies on the fact that loaf planned the entire thing ahead. I believe loaf was being genuine when talking about being mistaken and having a similar game as to the one he thought this was, you believed the same. As such, your argument falls apart.
On October 09 2014 02:17 The_Zen_Man wrote:Why wouldn't i want to do analysis on people to try to find out who the mafia is? Are you seriously telling people to not post reads and analysis if they do not meet a certain standard? If you are, then please explain why you haven't said anything about breshke doing what you essentially accuse me of doing? His post is more like abuses than mine and he is much less commited, but for some reason you completely ignore this and go solely after me? Townies do not ignore facts so they better fit with their pictures, scum do.
Then who is the mafia zen? What did you find out with your analysis? You reach 0 conclusions and you have effectively put 0 pressure on loaf.
There are a few differences between breshke's post and yours:
- Breshke acknowledges the current push already going on.
- Furthermore, you obviously either lied or rushed your push on loaf.
Now, I'm not reading breshke as town, but I am reading you as more scummy. Hence I'm pushing and voting on you. What do you even think of breshke?
On October 09 2014 02:17 The_Zen_Man wrote:
Also, one question super:
Why did you say loaf was town without giving any explanation as to why?
I have dropped several indirect hints as to why I think loaf is town. Most were directed at rad, iirc: Mafia will almost never try to make such a play. The risk is way too high and the chance of getting a reward is way too low. Read my filter.
Now, zen, you say that you pushed on loaf to pressure him. Which leads me to two questions:
1) Why did you give abuse shit for pushing on loaf "too hard" (i.e. pressuring him)?
2) What did you get out of pressuring loaf?
3) What kind of pressure did your post add?
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EBWOP: Hints were not even indirect.
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On the one hand I want to start a second wagon, on the other hand I really want to lynch zen. What do you think?
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I think that if dusts does not show up and place a vote down until EoD, we're better off lynching him. Because if Zen flips town, and dusts gets modkilled and also flips town, we will start being in a very crappy position with 3 towns killed at the beginning of D2
I think zen is a good lynch, but if we consider that this is a newbie game, there is a wildcard that he can be a town that messed up very badly, so the chance of him flipping town in the end is there. even if not a big one..
Also more people need to step up and voice their concerns and their thoughts on everyone.. Currently people not laying their cards down about everyone else will hurt us a lot on D2.. I'd much rather go into D2 seeing how people read others before we received at least 2 flips via D1 lynch and N1 kill..
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My point mainly being, that if do not lynch scum, or scum is not modkilled, then we as town to nothing to really go by at the start of D2.. No real analysis to make, as many people did not even interract at all with each other.
Superbia, get the ball rolling. What are your reads on everyone else other than zen?
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i hate writing on laptops..
EBWOP.
My point mainly being, that if we do not lynch scom, or scum is not modkilled then we as town have nothing to really go by at the start of D2.. no rel analysis to make, as many people did not even interract at all with each other.
Superbia, get the ball rolling. What are your reads on everyone else other than zen?
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I have the ball rolling already dude. We're also not lynching a lurker. They get modkilled or replaced. It's a waste of a lynch.
My circles:
town:
abuse
leaning town:
loaf
fecalfeast
Rad
null:
Elvis!
dusts
scum:
The_Zen_Man
breshke
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@The_Zen_Man
Your entire case against superbia is based on this idea that he didn't give reasons for why he thinks loaf is town. You try to downplay his efforts by claiming he did nothing of worth until he made a case. This is an extremely easy angle to attack him from and it completely misses the point.
The objective for town is to FIND THE SCUM. Scum hunt first and foremost, theorycraft after. How do you think scum hunting works? I'll tell you... by looking for areas of suspicion and following up on them.
What have you done the entire game?
1. Piggy backed on other people's ideas.
No need for me to go into the whole abuse/loaf aspect, as it's been beaten to death already. Your main argument now though is just copying me from early game:
On October 07 2014 11:55 Rad wrote:
@Superbia and @Fecalfeast - why so quick to jump on loafery being town?
On October 09 2014 02:17 The_Zen_Man wrote:
Why did you say loaf was town without giving any explanation as to why?
He's already answered that indirectly. It's hard to see if you're not engaged in the thread, and scum are most likely to be disengaged.
(I'm reading the thread updates as I write this and I see Super has just pointed this out, even using similar terminology. Whatever, someone will jump on this as me piggy backing on super but it explains why I dropped that pressure on him so... point stands)
2. Constantly explain what town is supposed to do.
Seriously, this is the bulk of your posts. See: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=WIFOM
3. 0 scum hunting
This is the kicker for me. I pointed this out before and urged you to interact more, but it hasn't changed. You still haven't scum hunted, only theorycrafted. Theorycrafting is the easy part, especially in newbie games. Scum hunting is difficult and requires pushing and adjusting to the situation as it changes. You've just sat back and passed judgement while complaining that there's no content and claiming that people who are scum hunting are scummy for it.
I was waiting for you to come back into this thread and drive the conversation before making my conclusion. Instead you've made a terrible case and done nothing else.
##Vote: The_Zen_Man
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On October 09 2014 03:07 abuse wrote:
I think that if dusts does not show up and place a vote down until EoD, we're better off lynching him. Because if Zen flips town, and dusts gets modkilled and also flips town, we will start being in a very crappy position with 3 towns killed at the beginning of D2
I think zen is a good lynch, but if we consider that this is a newbie game, there is a wildcard that he can be a town that messed up very badly, so the chance of him flipping town in the end is there. even if not a big one..
Also more people need to step up and voice their concerns and their thoughts on everyone.. Currently people not laying their cards down about everyone else will hurt us a lot on D2.. I'd much rather go into D2 seeing how people read others before we received at least 2 flips via D1 lynch and N1 kill..
I don't think zen is a wildcard newbie lynch here. Usually the wildcard lynch is on someone who is controversial, which was loaf. The more I interact with zen the more I'm liking this lynch. If you have some time today I would really like it if you could put some pressure on breshke (i.e. second wagon). I'm sticking to zen because I believe in the lynch and I'm also leading the wagon.
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EPT
