On December 02 2007 21:57 Hot_Bid wrote: Piste, TheFoReveRwaR, joeki, can you name and justify "many players" who you think should be there instead of Sea? I doubt you can.
Almost every single player that qualified for the MSL RO 16 and OSL RO 16. They all were argueably more successful than Sea. Keep in mind what the Power Rank really is. I think Sea is an extremely good player. I also understand that many times he gets stuck in tough groups. However, power rank is about results, and Sea is never able to show them. Sure he preforms well in proleague, but only because that's ALL he ever has to focus on, because despite his skills he never seems to qualify for individual leagues. The ranking is not a measurement of potential. It's a measurement of who is playing the best in a months worth of time.
Because you asked for names: TheMania, ForGG, Free, Kwanro(the guy that beat Sea in MSL..ya remember that?), Xellos and others. Flash too.
"Flash - Flash's deal is basically squeaking past group stages in OSL and then losing to the first good player he faces in the bracket rounds. This kid will have to do something to show me he has a legitimate shot at a final before he sees Power Rank time."
And Sea's deal is failing to even make it into the group stages, losing to the first mediocre player he faces when the stakes really matter. You say Flash's groups were easy. Look at who Sea is playing. And losing to Stork PvT is no shame what so ever. You say "looking at the games Sea is playing much better". LOOK WHO SEA IS PLAYING. Such awesome powerhouses like Skyhigh, Best, Calm, and Magma! Wow look out! He did get a win against anytime but also lost against a very mediocre Chalrenge. If he had played Stork, he would be raped. Then he wouldn't look so good. The only A class player other than Anytime he has won against recently is Midas, who has been anything but A class recently.
The reason Sea is so hyped is because we consistantly see him facing relatively weak opponents in a no pressure type stage, he hasn't even had to play aces in proleaguerecently. On top of that Sea is often playing either rookies/new blood or players who are preparing for 1 or sometimes even 2 other leagues. The result is an overrated player(for now). The only thing Steve that "convinces" you that players like Flash don't have a legitimate shot at a title, while players like Sea do, is your gay lo..err bias for him What else could be the reason when Flash has managed to qualify for an OSL twice, while Sea has done absolutely nothing? How long before you stop finding excuses for Sea and actually look at the results?
On December 02 2007 21:57 Hot_Bid wrote: Piste, TheFoReveRwaR, joeki, can you name and justify "many players" who you think should be there instead of Sea? I doubt you can.
anyone who actually manages to qualify to MSL/OSL once in a while.
On December 02 2007 21:57 Hot_Bid wrote: Piste, TheFoReveRwaR, joeki, can you name and justify "many players" who you think should be there instead of Sea? I doubt you can.
anyone who actually manages to qualify to MSL/OSL once in a while.
You cant have seen sea's games if you say that, sea's nothing short of amazing, and he doesn't have any especially convincing losses to proove otherwise.
I don't know anything about these players, but allow me to just make one interjection - it's a hell of a lot easier looking good, and displaying good play, against poorer opponents. Against a BGH newb, even Child could look like Savior, and demonstrate 'amazing play'. It's very very difficult to define an absolute measure of 'impressive play'.
As a result, I'm not so inclined to buy FakeSteve's argument for Sea, given that it is wholly predicated on 'Sea WRECKED his OSC group', when all that really means is that Sea beat two no-name players that many other OSL-level Terrans could probably have beaten as well, and looked equally good doing so.
Light is overrated, i dont understand u placing him on that list. And Mind should get atleast before Jaedong. Jaedong only has strong ZvT as allways, his preformance early this months with several losses vs poor players doesnt deserve him that spot tbh, compared to Minds champion runover mania, savior AND bisu, all top players 3 different race. Mind delivers!
On December 03 2007 06:59 ThePhan2m wrote: Light is overrated, i dont understand u placing him on that list. And Mind should get atleast before Jaedong. Jaedong only has strong ZvT as allways, his preformance early this months with several losses vs poor players doesnt deserve him that spot tbh, compared to Minds champion runover mania, savior AND bisu, all top players 3 different race. Mind delivers!
Jaedong's ZvZ is almost as flawless as the matchup gets and I wouldn't say mania is a "top player"
edit: Wait, Mind is fifth behind Jaedong already. On another note, I'd love to watch JD vs. Mind.
On December 03 2007 06:59 ThePhan2m wrote: Light is overrated, i dont understand u placing him on that list. And Mind should get atleast before Jaedong. Jaedong only has strong ZvT as allways, his preformance early this months with several losses vs poor players doesnt deserve him that spot tbh, compared to Minds champion runover mania, savior AND bisu, all top players 3 different race. Mind delivers!
Jaedong's ZvZ is almost as flawless as the matchup gets and I wouldn't say mania is a "top player"
edit: Wait, Mind is fifth behind Jaedong already. On another note, I'd love to watch JD vs. Mind.
If you see who he lost ZvZ vs this month, i have never heard of those players, even tho ZvZ is propably the mu where margins are least, I wouldnt say Jaedong has an almost flawless ZvZ. And ok, mania isnt really top.
Savior lost to Mind too, but he also pushed Bisu farther than Bisu has ever been pushed in a PvZ series. Watch the second and third games of the Savior/Bisu series and honestly tell me that any other Protoss in the world could have won those games.
Excuse me? I am sorry to dismiss your judgment but this is absolutely absurd. I've watched games 2 and 3 over and over, at least 10 times now, trying to convince myself that they were actually good, close games. They weren't. Much to my dismay, Bisu destroyed Savior - again.
In game 2, yes Bisu did lose his back expansion. But do you know how many overlords Savior lost that game? At Least Twenty-Three!!!. Savior exceeded 60 supply only momentarily in the game, and aside from the initial drop, was never able to gain control of the game flow. He was consistently choked for supply space due to losing overlords, and as a consequence had over 1000 gas yet no minerals.
Just look at his supply count to cap ratio ~24 minutes into the vod. Savior goes from 68 supply cap to 100, despite having only 50 units and getting hammered at his 3rd base?? What kind of zerg player, who is in any semblance of control of the game, has a gap of over 50 between his supply value and supply count?
Bisu was hitting Savior everywhere, constantly forcing Savior to move his units out of position for the next attack. Savior lost his 4th base to just a half-group of zealots, and his attempts at cracking Bisu's front door looked desperate and unwise.
I reiterate that after Savior's first drop, he NEVER had any chance of taking that game.
In game 3 Savior never so much as touched Bisu's economy while Bisu was frying his drones repeatedly. His 3 attempts to damage Bisu's expansions utterly failed, first at the mineral only, then at the nat, and finally at the island. Even when Savior looked decent after deflecting Bisu's army with swarm and cracklings, he was never able to get to within even FIFTY supply of Bisu all the way until he tapped out. Said army was destroyed by Bisu's next wave, and 3 minutes later we'd see Savior losing everything in an all-in drop at 5 o'clock.
While he managed to save his overlords midgame this time, he nevertheless lost nearly 30 drones (yes, I counted them) to templar drops. Savior was extremely strapped for gas all game and consistently had over 1500 minerals, even when he typed out.
I don't have anything against Savior being #2, but the suggestion that games 2 and 3 were even remotely closely contested is inconceivable to me.
Okay, I'll explain this very clearly. If this was in person I'd talk reaaaal sloooow liiiike thiiiiiiiis~
I didn't say Savior was close to winning those games. I said any Protoss besides Bisu would not have won those games. This is indisputable.
In game 2, Bisu had lost his nat nexus and was on the brink of death before his corsair heroics and perfectly timed Zealot attacks pulled him even. This is the closest Bisu has EVER been pushes to elimination in a PvZ series. This is indisputable.
In that second game, any protoss besides Bisu would not execute the overlord, zealot, and reaver harass in a manner that allows them to win a game in which they have one base to four. Bisu, however, does happen to be Bisu.
In the third game, Savior defended Bisu's early harass flawlessly, and as a result his economy was in full juggernaut mode. However, Bisu's inhuman multitasking allowed him ridiculous macro while simultaneously harassing with corsairs, storm drops, and reavers. No other protoss on earth is capable of multitasking to that level. No other protoss on earth would be able to stop Savior once his economy hit the peak it hit in that game. Not a single one.
I didn't suggest that Savior played better than Bisu and I certainly didn't suggest that Savior had it in the bag but totally fucked up. Bisu completely outplayed Savior in those two games, but no other Protoss would have pulled off those wins. Not a fucking chance.
That is my same thought. Bisu finally proved me and when I say finally I don't mean that I didnt think he was good. I mean that HE IS THE FUCKING KING OF SC NOW!
Nobody , Nobody, nobody on earth would of won against savior in those 2 last games. Bisu's micro, macro, style, harassment, sense of game, mind games are just excellent. But then again if Bisu died Savior would be the dictator again.
On December 03 2007 02:04 GrandInquisitor wrote: I don't know anything about these players, but allow me to just make one interjection - it's a hell of a lot easier looking good, and displaying good play, against poorer opponents. Against a BGH newb, even Child could look like Savior, and demonstrate 'amazing play'. It's very very difficult to define an absolute measure of 'impressive play'.
As a result, I'm not so inclined to buy FakeSteve's argument for Sea, given that it is wholly predicated on 'Sea WRECKED his OSC group', when all that really means is that Sea beat two no-name players that many other OSL-level Terrans could probably have beaten as well, and looked equally good doing so.
you obviously don't know anything about these players
On December 03 2007 02:04 GrandInquisitor wrote: I don't know anything about these players, but allow me to just make one interjection - it's a hell of a lot easier looking good, and displaying good play, against poorer opponents. Against a BGH newb, even Child could look like Savior, and demonstrate 'amazing play'. It's very very difficult to define an absolute measure of 'impressive play'.
As a result, I'm not so inclined to buy FakeSteve's argument for Sea, given that it is wholly predicated on 'Sea WRECKED his OSC group', when all that really means is that Sea beat two no-name players that many other OSL-level Terrans could probably have beaten as well, and looked equally good doing so.
you obviously don't know anything about these players
And you know tons I'm sure. Which you clearly demonstrated in your well thought out and completely in depth counter to his post.
On December 03 2007 02:04 GrandInquisitor wrote: I don't know anything about these players, but allow me to just make one interjection - it's a hell of a lot easier looking good, and displaying good play, against poorer opponents. Against a BGH newb, even Child could look like Savior, and demonstrate 'amazing play'. It's very very difficult to define an absolute measure of 'impressive play'.
As a result, I'm not so inclined to buy FakeSteve's argument for Sea, given that it is wholly predicated on 'Sea WRECKED his OSC group', when all that really means is that Sea beat two no-name players that many other OSL-level Terrans could probably have beaten as well, and looked equally good doing so.
you obviously don't know anything about these players
And you know tons I'm sure. Which you clearly demonstrated in your well thought out and completely in depth counter to his post.
i just told him what he told me
he said "I don't know anything about these players, "
I like to think of this ranking as who I would choose to play a game of SC for me at this moment in time if my life depended on the win--in other words, who I feel will win games most consistently, even while under pressure. Not sure how exactly FakeSteve chooses rankings or the criteria he prioritizes, but his opinions match mine fairly well.
EPT
What else could be the reason when Flash has managed to qualify for an OSL twice, while Sea has done absolutely nothing? How long before you stop finding excuses for Sea and actually look at the results? 
