EPTNewbie Mini Mafia LIV - Page 15
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IAmRobik
United States5878 Posts
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
There's a plethora of things you haven't addressed. The issue is that most of them aren't really arguable (not in the sense that there is no legitimate counterargument but more literally that they can't be argued). You're doing a lot of subtle things with the way you write; I raised the example of how your tone kept changing to match what Robik was doing re: OnceKing, for instance. You haven't said anything about it. I don't expect you to say anything productive or helpful, though, on that front, and it isn't worth arguing out. (You will say that either I am misinterpreting your tone or that your tone changes are coincidental, and it will simply be up to the audience to decide whether you are lying or I am wrong.) Even still, there are things I've raised which you could have argued but have elected not to argue, probably because they're unarguable (in the sense that there is no legitimate counterargument). You've repeatedly straw manned the arguments against you instead of addressing them charitably and reasonably. At no point did your questions, and responses to the answers you received, have any apparent constructive direction. Your voting rationale given was entirely post-hoc and despite your last message here it's obvious that you are sticking to your vote in spite of the overwhelming evidence against it, probably because you're desperate scum latching onto any last shred of capacity to cast doubt on me that you have. --- Why are all of you so quick to accept Tolkein's blatant lies about his test? Please. Until someone can rebut the five points raised in this post and establish that none of them are proof beyond a reasonable doubt that Tolkein is lying, no one in this thread has any reason to believe that Tolkein is being honest. | ||
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IAmRobik
United States5878 Posts
On March 27 2014 02:50 Valenius wrote: ##Unvote doesn't make much sense to keep that vote on considering we've progressed past Hearthstone talk. speaking of which...I just wanna get home and play HS. This stupid "work" thing keeps getting in the way of my fun! | ||
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Cavalinho
United States946 Posts
You can get my Eden read from above. If LT is town, then Eden is almost certainly mafia due to the way he pushes information and pounces an anything he perceives as weakness. It looks like he's more concerned with finding loopholes in reasoning rather than finding the mindset behind the moves players are making. While this can be construed as scumhunting, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is just because he looks busy. I'll admit, my own play has started somewhat sloppily and I think that his push was warranted...for a time. It looks like he's more concerned with making himself right rather than finding the right answer. There's also the point that he's actually started skimming my posts and then ignoring what I'm saying. This can be a mistake, but considering the way he so aggressively goes after certain information (and then ignoring what he finds) doesn't lead me to believe so. That being said, the points Eden brings up against LT make a whole lot of sense. LT's read on me is bosh. He says I'm practically confirmed mafia because I wanted someone to clarify something before I answered their question...What is that? Is that even a thing? I don't think that Val has really done enough to warrant being cleared as town, either. (Though Robik has done the same, and I generally think Robik comes up with pretty solid reads.) LT is scummy, and not just because he thinks I'm scum (which, considering the way this thread is going, is really saying something). OnceKing is pretty clear town to me. I thought he had a strong town game before, and I think he has one now. Policy lynch weirdness aside, it's clear that he made those posts with a town agenda in mind and that he's done plenty to keep us occupied in trying to solve the game's mystery. His questioning is solid and his logic is pretty easy to follow. I like it. Sqrt leans town for similar reasons. He doesn't thrust himself into the spotlight like OK does, but it seems like he's pretty focused on finding the right kinds of information. I don't think I have any real reasons to suspect him of anything right now. Pixelated is slightly town. I've already put together why the initial case against me was derp, but all he has said was "I don't think that's good enough." That's...not a good answer. At all. It's like he's just set on it (which is silly for a town player, because nobody has perfect information except mafia) and not particularly willing to backtrack on anything. Despite this, he's actively looking for information and stuff. Valenius is null, in case I didn't already make that particularly clear from my earlier reads. I don't think he has done a whole lot yet and looking through his filter leads me to believe that he's either genuinely AWOL or he's trying to lay low. Time will tell. Robik is town. Another player thrusting themselves into the spotlight, giving reads and generally doing shit that generally gets done in games. Is confirmed best player. Roland is null. I want to wait more before giving a read on him, because I already know I'm the kind of guy that likes to OMGUS and I feel like if I gave one now that it would be influenced by my confrontational mindset. (Though his read on Robik is actually kinda funny in the sense that, yeah, mafia probably wouldn't do that.) I want to elaborate more, but some people haven't even gotten to a two page filter yet. More information, specifically from LT, would be great right now. | ||
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Cavalinho
United States946 Posts
On March 27 2014 02:51 Eden1892 wrote: I'm going to address you directly once more, Cavalinho, and then until you demonstrate you're capable of reading properly and/or arguing in good faith, I'm not going to address you further. There's a plethora of things you haven't addressed. The issue is that most of them aren't really arguable (not in the sense that there is no legitimate counterargument but more literally that they can't be argued). You're doing a lot of subtle things with the way you write; I raised the example of how your tone kept changing to match what Robik was doing re: OnceKing, for instance. You haven't said anything about it. I don't expect you to say anything productive or helpful, though, on that front, and it isn't worth arguing out. (You will say that either I am misinterpreting your tone or that your tone changes are coincidental, and it will simply be up to the audience to decide whether you are lying or I am wrong.) Even still, there are things I've raised which you could have argued but have elected not to argue, probably because they're unarguable (in the sense that there is no legitimate counterargument). You've repeatedly straw manned the arguments against you instead of addressing them charitably and reasonably. At no point did your questions, and responses to the answers you received, have any apparent constructive direction. Your voting rationale given was entirely post-hoc and despite your last message here it's obvious that you are sticking to your vote in spite of the overwhelming evidence against it, probably because you're desperate scum latching onto any last shred of capacity to cast doubt on me that you have. --- Why are all of you so quick to accept Tolkein's blatant lies about his test? Please. Until someone can rebut the five points raised in this post and establish that none of them are proof beyond a reasonable doubt that Tolkein is lying, no one in this thread has any reason to believe that Tolkein is being honest. I'll answer in a bit, have some work to do and will get back to you. | ||
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sqrtofneg1
Canada1158 Posts
##Unvote ##Vote: Cavalinho | ||
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OnceKing
United States939 Posts
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IAmRobik
United States5878 Posts
On March 27 2014 03:14 Cavalinho wrote: Here are the few reads that I've managed to gather thus far: You can get my Eden read from above. If LT is town, then Eden is almost certainly mafia due to the way he pushes information and pounces an anything he perceives as weakness. It looks like he's more concerned with finding loopholes in reasoning rather than finding the mindset behind the moves players are making. While this can be construed as scumhunting, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is just because he looks busy. I'll admit, my own play has started somewhat sloppily and I think that his push was warranted...for a time. It looks like he's more concerned with making himself right rather than finding the right answer. There's also the point that he's actually started skimming my posts and then ignoring what I'm saying. This can be a mistake, but considering the way he so aggressively goes after certain information (and then ignoring what he finds) doesn't lead me to believe so. That being said, the points Eden brings up against LT make a whole lot of sense. LT's read on me is bosh. He says I'm practically confirmed mafia because I wanted someone to clarify something before I answered their question...What is that? Is that even a thing? I don't think that Val has really done enough to warrant being cleared as town, either. (Though Robik has done the same, and I generally think Robik comes up with pretty solid reads.) LT is scummy, and not just because he thinks I'm scum (which, considering the way this thread is going, is really saying something). OnceKing is pretty clear town to me. I thought he had a strong town game before, and I think he has one now. Policy lynch weirdness aside, it's clear that he made those posts with a town agenda in mind and that he's done plenty to keep us occupied in trying to solve the game's mystery. His questioning is solid and his logic is pretty easy to follow. I like it. Sqrt leans town for similar reasons. He doesn't thrust himself into the spotlight like OK does, but it seems like he's pretty focused on finding the right kinds of information. I don't think I have any real reasons to suspect him of anything right now. Pixelated is slightly town. I've already put together why the initial case against me was derp, but all he has said was "I don't think that's good enough." That's...not a good answer. At all. It's like he's just set on it (which is silly for a town player, because nobody has perfect information except mafia) and not particularly willing to backtrack on anything. Despite this, he's actively looking for information and stuff. Valenius is null, in case I didn't already make that particularly clear from my earlier reads. I don't think he has done a whole lot yet and looking through his filter leads me to believe that he's either genuinely AWOL or he's trying to lay low. Time will tell. Robik is town. Another player thrusting themselves into the spotlight, giving reads and generally doing shit that generally gets done in games. Is confirmed best player. Roland is null. I want to wait more before giving a read on him, because I already know I'm the kind of guy that likes to OMGUS and I feel like if I gave one now that it would be influenced by my confrontational mindset. (Though his read on Robik is actually kinda funny in the sense that, yeah, mafia probably wouldn't do that.) I want to elaborate more, but some people haven't even gotten to a two page filter yet. More information, specifically from LT, would be great right now. If Eden and LT are never mafia together and Eden's case on LT is good, then why don't you come to the conclusion that Eden is town? What am I missing? | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
Cavalinho: How is it that my case on LT is good and I'm just mafia preying on town weakness? Why does your skepticism about my points and methods stop where your space ends and another's begins? | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
On March 27 2014 03:21 OnceKing wrote: I need LT to respond to Eden's five points, then. I don't and won't presume to speak for him and my estimation that he made an honest mistake might be biased from LII. Valenius seems to have an idea, though. So Valenius, I'd like you to respond to Eden's points too, as well as give your thoughts on Cav/Eden! Who is your partner and why is it Lord Tolkein? | ||
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OnceKing
United States939 Posts
On March 27 2014 04:42 Eden1892 wrote: Who is your partner and why is it Lord Tolkein? You're my partner because you're Lord Tolkien! | ||
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Valenius
United Kingdom1266 Posts
OnceKing's initial policy post has come under some flak, seemingly because people don't see the point of it. In my view, it's setting out early what will happen if the day phase goes to shit and it's as split as the last two games. The last two games have been horrific day one's, with a spread vote count across all of the players and as is rightly pointed out by Robik a few pages on; We need to consolidate votes to stop that situation happening again. If it got to a split vote situation, it's much easier for mafia to be the one's controlling who's voted off the first day, either through sheeping onto votes or even just sitting back if town is heading wrong. In theory, in a split situation moving across onto a lurker, or non-contributer would help town in 1) more contribution and 2) lack of split votes. Nexxxt: His earlier vote on Robik seems like just pushing to me, there's not much behind it and robik's too strong to feel flustered by that shit. TL:DR for this section: I don't feel OnceKing would post this if he were mafia mostly because of the positives it has for town, and negatives for scum. One thing to take away from this, is it transitioned us away from the wtfpostinggarbage stage and got some actual discussion going. OnceKing's vote on Cavalinho seems reasonable-ish to me. Cav's post that preceded it was wtf worthy; "One of us is going to be dead by the end of today and it isn't going to be me just because I agreed with someone." There's still over half of the day phase left, this is just a ridiculous post. Argue your corner, don't throw down an ultimatum like that; it does absolutely nothing for your towniness. Lord Tolkien's 'scum trap'; As i've mentioned i think it was just a .. i cant even come up with an adjective to describe it. It, and the follow-up posts were a bad play. If you're wanting to do that, you pick someone who's pretty much in the middle of everything.. average posts.. average town/mafia feeling etc. Stating i'm cleared based off my ONE post is like showing someone a guillotine and asking them to put their head on the block for you. The issue i'm having with this, is I can't decide where it falls on the scumminess scale. The last game I played with you, you were reasonably good. Unless you were sleep posting, there's no way I would believe you could make that post seriously. idk. One of Eden's points about you.. "It was also right before he went to sleep. Yeah, it's not a constructive post. That's not automatically scum, especially in isolation." Eden: he never really said he was automatically scum did he? the wording i can see is: "sqrtofneg1 has thus far been fairly disconcerting to me." & "but seems to be a scum lurker to me". It's a reads game, people do misread and have different ideas as to what constitutes a scum post (the game would be boring as shit otherwise). Eden's comment about having never mentioned the right or wrong day (i can only assume you're talking about LT's reasoning for the post timings?!?) is irrelevant to me. If LT's reads were based off of the posting times, then of course that's what he's going to use for his argument? I'll try and address Eden's other points further down when i go through eden's filter. I don't see much else worth discussing following the above in his filter. Obviously give me questions on shit if you disagree~ Robik I can't believe i'm saying this, but Robik seems pretty solidly town. He's abrasive, but is pushing in the right direction. He has a different read on OK's lynch proposal, but he's also more experienced so he doesn't feel like that would need reinforcing to people. Pixalated + Show Spoiler + On March 26 2014 21:00 Pixalated wrote: I really am not sure about this scumbait play and what it means. On one hand it's an easy way to have a free out after making bad reads and getting called out for it, but it seems really stupid for scum to do, and I am not sure if scum would stick out their head like that. Actually can you explain this. You say you yourself feel suspicious of OK's first post, yet you yourself ask why Robik thinks its out of place??? My reading of that: He's saying he did feel super suspicous of it, but following re-reading the old thread (Where a similar day1 lurker policy was stated) he changed his mind. He pretty much states why he's changed his mind, and then asks why Robik still thinks it's out of place. If they had the same initial reading for mistrusting OK's post, i could understand your confusion. However, they both disliked it for different reasons, which clear's that argument. However -No 2-, Robik's given kinda good reasoning for his dislike of it, although i don't agree with him, the reasoning is there: which makes LT's question pointless. Your two post's (won't quote due to the length that this is getting to..) at 12:53 & 13:00 i dislike. In one, you're saying you'd prefer to be lynching him. At this stage should you even be considering that he's going to get lynched? You should be wanting to get the right lynch, a lot can change in a day. Then you ask Eden who he'd be prefering.. same as above. If this is just being done to put pressure on those people.. i can understand it but it didnt seem that way to me. ~~ Sqrt. Your initial leaving time was a bit wierd. I agree with LT on this: It's well past any joking around stage, and you don't post anything on what's just happened. What i REALLY want to see from you, which ahs been completely lacking is solid reasoning on why your reads are what they are. Your entire read on me/LT (granted, i hadn't posted too much so i can forgive you for me) was based around posts you didn't understand. I have no idea why LT chose me, but I guess it was because I was clearly not town at that point and it was a lazy move. "Robik's playing aggressive, as he normally does. He's been pressuring pretty much everybody, as a town should do. The one thing that I don't like is that he got a town read on my on joke posts before the game. that's strange. I read town." It's not a strange read at all, it's pretty much in line with everything else that's been said about lurkers and mafia. It's also another one of those circular fucking logic's.. "If i post lots at the start, it'll make me not look like mafia, but then they might think that, so what if i dont post, but then that makes me more of a lurker, so i'll post..etc etc..". It's a decent read in a newbie game, but if you have any idea what you're doing it's not a unthinkable play for you to make. More than anything, you're jumping on with other people's reads without giving reasoning other than agreeing with their posts. Give some actual thought out reasons. For now, you're towards the top of my scummy totem pole. "Comes in, makes reads, avoids question. ##Unvote ##Vote: Cavalinho" In that one post by Cavalinho, he's provided 5x much more than you have so far. Cavalinho I don't know what RVS stands for, but i'm assuming it's basically the wtfpostingorgy that happened at the start of the game? If so, you post that OnceKing's post was wierd to make at the time it happened, when we were barely out of RVS. OnceKing's lynching post is the post that GOT us out of RVS. It was a large driving factor in the next pages, and was the indisputable start of proper play. I don't get how it's wierd. I've mentioned how very much i disliked your ultimatum (for lack of a better word) post about it being either you or eden that dies. just wtf. You're playing mafia, of course you're going to have to deal with people going on to you. It gives you a chance to explain your reasoning, and mitigate any doubts people have about you. You should be fucking relishing the chance to prove yourself as more town when people are questioning you, rather than being overly agressive in return. That's my view of what I'd do anyway. Your comment to OK about not doing a lynch me-lynch him type play is one I agree with, I dislike that play unless it's a certain situation.. like cop->fake claim cop etc. Day 1, that should never be done.. reads are too flimsy at this stage. Jumping forward a few posts.. you comment on how LT's read is bosh. You're then using his view on me being cleared(the bait one) as if it's a real read. He's right in that your posts are generally agressive. He say's you're just OMGUS'ing without a case, which you even agree with in your 'story straight' post. I'll get onto Eden/Roland in a bit, but posting this for now. Quick totem pole. top doesn't mean i think he's confirmed scum, just highest on my list as it stands. Sqrt Cavalinho Pixelated Lord Tolkien OnceKing Robik Idk where roland / eden fit into that yet. | ||
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Valenius
United Kingdom1266 Posts
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OnceKing
United States939 Posts
Sqrt, do you have any original reads to contribute? Your list of reads is just a massive rephrase of everything that has been said by others -- Robik and Eden have voiced all your concerns about LT, and your town read on Robik even copies what I said about him town reading you for many joke posts at the beginning. | ||
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sqrtofneg1
Canada1158 Posts
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OnceKing
United States939 Posts
1) How do you feel about Valenius now? 2) How do you feel about Valenius's reads? | ||
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IAmRobik
United States5878 Posts
On March 27 2014 04:46 OnceKing wrote: You're my partner because you're Lord Tolkien! This is a really weird interaction and I don't know what to make of it. Eden says he thinks OK is town or at least leaning town for his lynch all lurkers thing. Now he's asking who his partner is. I'm sure I'm just missing something here, but I'd love an explanation. | ||
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sqrtofneg1
Canada1158 Posts
On March 27 2014 05:25 OnceKing wrote: Great, then let's talk about 1) How do you feel about Valenius now? 2) How do you feel about Valenius's reads? I'm still deciding about how I feel about Val, because other than that post on his own reads, he hasn't done much. As for his reads, I don't like his read on me, because I'm not scum, but other than that, nothing glares out that I disagree with. | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
On March 27 2014 05:27 IAmRobik wrote: This is a really weird interaction and I don't know what to make of it. Eden says he thinks OK is town or at least leaning town for his lynch all lurkers thing. Now he's asking who his partner is. I'm sure I'm just missing something here, but I'd love an explanation. We're (mostly) fucking around, OK and I play together a lot and a common question we like to throw at suspects is "who is your partner and why is it x". In that case I didn't like that he was prodding Valenius to defend Tolkien*. I don't think he's mafia. (*: Has it really been Tolkien all this time? God damn it I've been misspelling it like a total chump.) Now then... I'm pretty sold on Tolkien/Valenius scumteam right now. Looks like Tolkien really was just trying to get away with clearing his teammate and hoping no one would call him on it. Rationale: - His town reads are obvious and aren't saying anything new, and he's hesitating to actually call his other reads scum; it seems like no town person should be without clear scum reads at this stage; note that he's not even straight called sqrt, his dirtiest read, scum, he's just said "top of the totem pole" which doesn't actually say "is he scum or not" - He's pre-emptively defending Tolkien which is literally the opposite of what town should be doing in this situation; he should be sitting back on that issue and letting Tolkien defend himself in his own words to get a purer read on Tolkien's motives - He's taking up the sqrt torch and going after what I think is a lame, easy target in sqrt instead of actually scumhunting; I get the sense this is to legitimize Tolkien's sudden and poorly-explained strike at sqrt earlier | ||
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IAmRobik
United States5878 Posts
1) I think that most people who have read the game so far have you (and kinda sorta Roland) as town. The fact that he's unwilling to put you on that list shows me that he's at least contemplating other scenarios -- I personally have started to get nervous regarding you. It's not enough for me to not call you town, but I am just nervous. It was this from Cavalinho: Eden is almost certainly mafia due to the way he pushes information and pounces an anything he perceives as weakness It does kinda feel like you're jumping on everything that could be perceived as scummy. I think you've been kinda reluctant to call people town, and have sorta backed your way into it. It's easier as mafia to just call everyone mafia than to call everyone town. It honestly could just be your style of pressuring people and then coming up with a conclusion based on their answers, but yeah. IDK. You're almost certainly town. I'm probably just paranoid. 2) The whole tone of his post just reads townie to me. While I might not agree with all of his conclusions, it seems that he's trying to solve the game and he's trying to find reasons to think certain people are town and certain people are scummy and he's really easy to follow...his post flows well. | ||
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