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United States24440 Posts
On September 11 2007 14:05 crescendo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2007 13:57 Superiorwolf wrote: Unit cancel is free though, and buildings with units and they die you get money back I think. If a unit is building and the building dies before the unit comes out, you don't get your money back for that unit. Uh I'm pretty certain that you are entirely wrong. Why don't you try it and double check ...
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On September 11 2007 14:08 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2007 14:05 crescendo wrote:On September 11 2007 13:57 Superiorwolf wrote: Unit cancel is free though, and buildings with units and they die you get money back I think. If a unit is building and the building dies before the unit comes out, you don't get your money back for that unit. Uh I'm pretty certain that you are entirely wrong. Why don't you try it and double check ... Yeah I just tried, my mistake. >_>;;
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On September 11 2007 14:08 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2007 14:05 crescendo wrote:On September 11 2007 13:57 Superiorwolf wrote: Unit cancel is free though, and buildings with units and they die you get money back I think. If a unit is building and the building dies before the unit comes out, you don't get your money back for that unit. Uh I'm pretty certain that you are entirely wrong. Why don't you try it and double check ... Me? Well I'm almost positive on the extractor being 17 minerals lost for cancel, but for the unit thing I'm tentative to say that since I've read it before but I haven't personally tested it...
edit: nvm ninja'd
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It's a 75% refund on buildings (lose 13 for an extractor).
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On September 11 2007 13:57 Superiorwolf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2007 13:56 micronesia wrote:On September 11 2007 13:39 Superiorwolf wrote:On September 11 2007 13:32 alphablend wrote: What if you cancel the pylon? Then you lose 25, is that a gain? 34 On September 11 2007 13:38 alphablend wrote:On September 11 2007 13:31 NonY[rC] wrote:On September 11 2007 13:18 ArC_man wrote: You can get all the blocked probes out, there was a thread about this in the past (and there was a video demonstrating it). It's a nifty little trick. yeah that Commentator dude was a gosu poster Problem is you still can't mine the patches that the manner pylon blocks without going all the way around. Don't you just do the stack/clip trick on the minerals that are in the immediate vicinity? Are all cancellations 33% or something? I always thought it was 25 but I never checked. Yeah it's about 33%, I remember doing a extractor cancel test and it was 17 minerals, so extractor probably 33 or 34. Unit cancel is free though, and buildings with units and they die you get money back I think.
EDIT: Not so sure about my post anymore.
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I was pretty sure building cancels were 25%, but I haven't played in ages. :/
How did I do this? -I created a pylon when I had 100 minerals -I sent 2 probes mining from the minerals that were blocked, while two others would destroy the pylon -When the pylon was destroyed, I checked how much minerals the 2 probes had collected in total. -I did it 10 times, 5 times in 2 LT patches, 5 times on 2 other LT patches.
Results: The probes mined 120-128 minerals each time
So the probes that mined from the blocked minerals took in 120-128 minerals by the time the pylon was destroyed by the 2 trapped probes attacking it. Only those 2 probes attacked the pylon?
But anyway, how does that demonstrate a 120-128 mineral loss from the manner pylon? I'm confused at your reasoning--take it through again please.
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Kau
Canada3500 Posts
On September 11 2007 13:57 Superiorwolf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2007 13:56 micronesia wrote:On September 11 2007 13:39 Superiorwolf wrote:On September 11 2007 13:32 alphablend wrote: What if you cancel the pylon? Then you lose 25, is that a gain? 34 On September 11 2007 13:38 alphablend wrote:On September 11 2007 13:31 NonY[rC] wrote:On September 11 2007 13:18 ArC_man wrote: You can get all the blocked probes out, there was a thread about this in the past (and there was a video demonstrating it). It's a nifty little trick. yeah that Commentator dude was a gosu poster Problem is you still can't mine the patches that the manner pylon blocks without going all the way around. Don't you just do the stack/clip trick on the minerals that are in the immediate vicinity? Are all cancellations 33% or something? I always thought it was 25 but I never checked. Yeah it's about 33%, I remember doing a extractor cancel test and it was 17 minerals, so extractor probably 33 or 34. Unit cancel is free though, and buildings with units and they die you get money back I think.
I lose 25 mins when I cancel a pylon.
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Handy refund list:
Building cancel: 75% Unit cancel: 100% Upgrade cancel: 100% Scarab/interceptor cancel: 100% Queued units when building is destroyed: 100% Queued upgrade when building is destroyed: 75% Queued scarabs/interceptors when reaver/carrier dies: 0%
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I'm really tired of people posting things that are absolutely incorrect, despite being trivial to check. If you're not sure about something, DON'T CORRECT SOMEONE. Either check for yourself, google it, or ask politely.
Canceling buildings refunds 75% (you lose 25%) Losing a building with units queued cancels the units being made and in queue (100% returned).
You lose 25 by canceling a pylon. You lose 13 for extractor trick. And on a related note, from all my extractor trick testing, it was never profitable: you lose the 13, you take the extractor drone off mining for a bit, and you delay your overlord to get a 10 drone early, which usually is one of the most inefficient drones (especially on 9 patch maps). Does anyone have any conclusive tests that show when extractor trick is useful? Maybe I'm just too slow to do it right, cause I've seen sAviOr do it.
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I'm thinking it would only benefit on a 10 mineral map (*cough*Longinus*cough*) where the 10 drone immediately has an empty patch to mine or perhaps the 10th drone only makes a difference if microed properly. I see Jaedong doing the extractor trick plenty of times as well.
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can you post screenshots of your process? im interested to see how it was set up.
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Anyone still has that video which was posted by "Commentator" on the "Nal_Ra's anti manner pylon thread"? It wasn't available there anymore.
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United States24440 Posts
On September 11 2007 14:23 SonuvBob wrote: Handy refund list: Upgrade cancel: 100%
Why do tosses fake air weapons instead of singularity in pvt then?
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To me the main reason behind doing manner pylons has always been that my zealot harrass becomes so much harder for my opponent to deal with. His zealots will start attacking my pylons instead of chasing my zealots if he isn't paying enough attention, and probes will be running to the back of the mineral line in order to mine from the blocked off minerals, which makes it really easy to snipe stray probes. Watch Bisu vs Pokju (I think it was Pokju) where bisu does his manner pylon --> offensive gates strategy and notice how easy it is for Bisu to constantly pick off probes because they keep running all the way around his gateways. And yes, people will call you funny names, which in itself makes it worth it
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I think most people who act like it doesn't work just aren't very good at using it.
As Kwark said, it's a pylon; it gives supply. It's not as though it has no use at all. And since you're probably following it up with aggressive play (the only scenario I can think of where I wouldn't would be if I've already commited to tech and I happen to be able to seal off like 3 probes or something ridiculous like that), he'll be far too busy dealing your zealots to get rid of the pylon quickly.
If you're forced to cancel, he's probably commited several probes to destroying the pylon (or you fucked it up and his mining isn't suffering as badly as it should, but we'll ignore that for discussion purposes), in which case he's still losing more money than you.
It can be very worth it, just good players won't often let you get away with making them and getting 2 or more probes.
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On September 11 2007 14:25 LonelyMargarita wrote: I'm really tired of people posting things that are absolutely incorrect, despite being trivial to check. If you're not sure about something, DON'T CORRECT SOMEONE. Either check for yourself, google it, or ask politely.
Canceling buildings refunds 75% (you lose 25%) Losing a building with units queued cancels the units being made and in queue (100% returned).
You lose 25 by canceling a pylon. You lose 13 for extractor trick. And on a related note, from all my extractor trick testing, it was never profitable: you lose the 13, you take the extractor drone off mining for a bit, and you delay your overlord to get a 10 drone early, which usually is one of the most inefficient drones (especially on 9 patch maps). Does anyone have any conclusive tests that show when extractor trick is useful? Maybe I'm just too slow to do it right, cause I've seen sAviOr do it.
This is easy to test.
First you need to calculate the amount the earlier drone will mine. To do this is easy on an average game. You just need to check how many mineral chunks he brought back before the regular drones (the drone that will come after the ol, which normally comes together with the early drone) could bring one chunk. I think the early drone can bring back around 2 chunks before the regular drone brings its first one. so 16 minerals.
and lost 13. But that is not all. The drone who went building a geyser probably lost a full mining turn, and therefore 8 minerals.
Thus, I dont think gas trick is effective. But if thats the case, you lost 5 minerals lol not much =p
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Don't forget, he ALSO blocks the direct route to mineral patches. You didn't take this into account.
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On September 12 2007 02:56 pooper-scooper wrote: Don't forget, he ALSO blocks the direct route to mineral patches. You didn't take this into account. Uhh... no, he blocks the outside so the probes can't get to nexus, so the probes are stuck between pylon and mineral patches...
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