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United Kingdom30774 Posts
Well I totally hit post instead of preview.
I disagree. This is a game of information, that information is gathered by lynching people. Wagons formed, wagons abandoned, interactions etc etc. What benefit do we have to determining the alignment of other players when we lynch into a pool of inactive players? There are vig's for things like that. The entire mention of lynching into lurkers promotes a stability to the players that can post the bare minimum as they won't get lynched, while we still gather nothing.
I find it odd that, rather than wait to get to a pc and contribute, bumatlarge defaults to phone posting and has intent to guide people on how to perform in this game, talking about policy and strategy rather than waiting and contributing on things that have happened. Phone's aren't limited to policy talk, yet he has neglected to give any insight into what he thinks.
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LSB, I likez your style. Want to wait for his replies though.
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On December 10 2013 13:47 purpletrator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 13:38 Plutarch wrote:On December 10 2013 13:34 purpletrator wrote:On December 10 2013 13:21 Plutarch wrote:Purple I would like you to explain the issue you had with my statement clearly. What is lackluster about stating you would rather lynch scum than lurkers in the context of a conversation about lurker policy? On December 10 2013 06:33 purpletrator wrote:On December 10 2013 06:30 Xatalos wrote:On December 10 2013 06:27 purpletrator wrote:
I am a civilian. To my great dismay, my blood is not purple.
Plutarch, what distinguishes "scum" from "coin-flip"? I'd assume he means that lurker = coin-flip. Did you ask merely out of curiosity or for what reason? It was a pretty lackluster statement to make. I want to know if there was any meat to the meaning behind "coin-flip", because its an empty phrase, much like things like WIFOM and scumslip. Empty buzzwords that don't actually find scum but look like you want to find them. It wasnt explicit that you equated coinflip to lurker. It was also a crock of shit in the sense that you cant know with certainty scum vs coinflip. If you want to call it policy, do that. It was pretty clear. I also believe you can know scum with such a high probability that it is almost certain, so it really isn't a crock of shit. Regardless I don't see the point in attacking that post at all. What were you trying to gain from doing so? Well since you understood your own post, of course you wont see a point to attacking it. I think it was fake, I just dont know if it was fake or fake
How was it fake? What was fake about it? You can't just call something fake with no explanation
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Also I think the case on cora isn't very good. Most of it seems to stem from his opening post which seemed just fine to me. He said he wants to pressure lurkers and he said he wasn't gonna be super active for two days. People are making it like it's a complete contradiction when it really isn't. If he was actually lurking then maybe you could make a case.
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Facts>Analysis>information.
Information is subjectively valued. In standard setups, information is massively overshadowed by conclusions drawn from all information. Information is a too insubstantial this early.
I'd be more then happy to keep filling up the thread with this gentleman talk if you'll oblige.
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
On December 10 2013 13:57 bumatlarge wrote:
Facts>Analysis>information.
Information is subjectively valued. In standard setups, information is massively overshadowed by conclusions drawn from all information. Information is a too insubstantial this early.
I'd be more then happy to keep filling up the thread with this gentleman talk if you'll oblige.
1) What benefit to our fact and analysis tracking does talking about policy have?
2) What facts do we retrieve from lynching a lurker over someone that is actively participating?
I think you are misreading information as information. Analysis and facts are made from information that we gather, what analsyis can we create from lynching off a "modkillable" player compared to the wealth of analsysis that can be created from a scummy, active player.
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Either way, I would much rather you talk about people in this game than further this discussion. What have you gathered so far? Were you able to fully catch up on your phone?
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On December 10 2013 08:32 Spaghetticus wrote:
I am not shifting my vote until slam does something useful to make up for his spam. I'm giving him until 6pm my time (7.5 hours from now) to do so or my vote is not changing at all regardless of anything that comes afterwards.
Pressure? yes.
Policy? yes.
Serious? yes.
Very scummy post. You're actually saying that you may sit on your vote regardless of what happens in the thread? Basically giving yourself an built-in excuse to make your vote not matter (and unable to be analyzed) if slam isn't one of the leading wagons?
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On December 10 2013 14:04 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 13:57 bumatlarge wrote:
Facts>Analysis>information.
Information is subjectively valued. In standard setups, information is massively overshadowed by conclusions drawn from all information. Information is a too insubstantial this early.
I'd be more then happy to keep filling up the thread with this gentleman talk if you'll oblige. 1) What benefit to our fact and analysis tracking does talking about policy have? 2) What facts do we retrieve from lynching a lurker over someone that is actively participating? I think you are misreading information as information. Analysis and facts are made from information that we gather, what analsyis can we create from lynching off a "modkillable" player compared to the wealth of analsysis that can be created from a scummy, active player. _________________ Either way, I would much rather you talk about people in this game than further this discussion. What have you gathered so far? Were you able to fully catch up on your phone?
Information is actions, Analyses are read based. Read is such a non-intuitive word. Read is a notable opinion based on analysis. You can't have a real read so soon based on what is posted. I tried and I don't have anything that evolves into something worth pursuing right now, at least publicly.
Lynch information day 1 is weak as well. I'd like to think of it as the control, from there you can get really
Solid reads. I'd rather lynch a blank green then an active green. Don't misalign what I say, if everyone is active then you are correct, but based on experience, I'd say this doesn't happen in public games. That's just opinion. There is always some one that isn't worth keeping around as town. And if thy start arguing as scum, good.
There is really nothing to catch up on. I don't have any notable scum reads. But I'd like to keep talking with people who are willing to talk. I'm confident anything I can procure with people that are willing I talk with me is useful to very townie.
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Note to everyone, I don't backspace.
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FOSing Xatalos. I agree w/ the whole flinging poo analysis. And this post:On December 10 2013 07:10 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 07:06 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:04 Alakaslam wrote:On December 10 2013 07:00 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I don't like Xatalos right now and I'm curious if anyone sees what I see before I say why. Gladly oblige. Quick to hop on someone really really unreasonably early and with not the greatest logic in the world? My behavior right off is worse but he votes cora I am so bad I am useful to scum in the lategame, so he would rather mislynch cora who though not perfect, is definitely better at being town than me. Probably not exactly your point but I think you are also seeing the quick to lynch attitude. And the slightly unreasonable aggressiveness. I'm seeing a scattershot that's flinging poo everywhere and found someone to whom it will stick. I don't feel like he's trying to discern anyone's alignment, but rather start chaos and find a nice lynch target. ##Vote Xatalos Well, that's one way to look at it. The other is that I'm always relatively aggressive as town.
Just really seems like he's trying to explain how he's trying to play to his town meta and he's pissed that Artan isn't seeing it that way.
I'm also noticing that he's giving alot of his reads a qualifier. A bunch of "this guy is scummy but he could be town too" or vice versa.
Check these:
On December 10 2013 07:30 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 07:26 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:24 Xatalos wrote:On December 10 2013 07:16 Spaghetticus wrote:
Xatalos do you think Artanis' point about you scatter-shotting is a good one? Artanis has a good eye. Maybe I ought to calm down a bit. However, I'm tired of slow first days. It feels good to get something going fast. Do you think my pressure on you is indicative of my alignment? Hard to say. I'd say slightly leaning town based on the fact that you're apparently trying to unravel my alignment. But I think you're a veteran player? How many games have you played? In that sense, it could possibly be almost anything.
On December 10 2013 07:36 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 07:33 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Oh wait I can just click profile here. 15. OK. Well, it's definitely possible that this is a "play" to get town credit. But then again, the more likely scenario is that you're town and trying to figure out the game. Your experience makes the former option more likely, but still less likely than the later option, I'd say.
On December 10 2013 08:09 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 08:01 Holyflare wrote:On December 10 2013 07:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:36 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:21 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:17 LSB wrote:
I think we need to calm down. My "townie on townie day 1 shitstorm" sense is tingling.
That speaking, oddly enough it does encourage a Xatalos lynch Whom do you feel are townies from this and why? It hasn't really been one on one. It's been HF and Xatalos against Cora, and myself, Alakaslam and you against Xatalos. If you feel it's townie on townie, then you'd think Xatalos was town. So far I think I am townie, I haven't really thought past that. I just don't think this day 1 attitude is gonna be very productive. The whole entire Xatalos suspicion does require a meta read on Xatalos to see if he is brilliant enough to try for the plan on day 1, or does he just play like this. I just skimmed through the filter he linked and I don't think it looks like the start of this game at all. He's far more aggressive here. What were you trying to say exactly with your initial post if you didn't mean to give anyone a town read but yourself? I'm confused. I don't think a plan other than "starting shit" is required for scum. That's always a good thing. In my opinion natural scum play is to stay low, especially on day 1, the town tends to self destruct anyways day 1. This whole entire "starting shit" strat is actually pretty good, even though it is counterintuitive to the idea of trying to not draw attention. Thus I assumed this strat is not very obvious, especially since I personally never considered it. This is all pure speculation. Something more grounded is that Xatalos is definably acting very different from before, and in my eyes less of a townie I don't feel like Xatalos put himself in the spotlight as much as trying to put others in the spotlight. Corazon put himself in the spotlight without any scum gain. When you look at his post from a scum point of view, it doesn't make sense for them to make it. I can see a scum agenda behind Xatalos' posts. That said, I do like his view on my pressure on him in that it was nuanced rather than trying to score town points. The rest of the day should provide more information. On December 10 2013 07:36 Holyflare wrote:Nobody going to discuss cora's mindset or are you going to dismiss it outright for xantos discussion some more? On December 10 2013 06:52 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Holy, I don't feel like his response is that different. I also don't think he'd put himself out there so much at the start of the game. No reason to draw attention to yourself like that as scum. Given you quoted me I take it you'd like a response from me? I don't find Corazon scummy at this point in time because he drew attention to himself without any scum benefit. Is it not also a scum mindset to heavily defend themselves when attacked, unnaturally so? Also while defending themselves to then deflect upon another person? Why are you only looking for the people that are "starting shit"? I only know a few scum that play that way. Have you any scum meta on Xatalos that suggests he plays like he is? I don't like how you're so dismissive over cora without discussion when with Xantos you skim the filters to discuss him further. On December 10 2013 06:52 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Holy, I don't feel like his response is that different. I also don't think he'd put himself out there so much at the start of the game. No reason to draw attention to yourself like that as scum. On December 10 2013 07:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:21 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:17 LSB wrote:
I think we need to calm down. My "townie on townie day 1 shitstorm" sense is tingling.
That speaking, oddly enough it does encourage a Xatalos lynch Whom do you feel are townies from this and why? It hasn't really been one on one. It's been HF and Xatalos against Cora, and myself, Alakaslam and you against Xatalos. If you feel it's townie on townie, then you'd think Xatalos was town. So far I think I am townie, I haven't really thought past that. I just don't think this day 1 attitude is gonna be very productive. The whole entire Xatalos suspicion does require a meta read on Xatalos to see if he is brilliant enough to try for the plan on day 1, or does he just play like this. I just skimmed through the filter he linked and I don't think it looks like the start of this game at all. He's far more aggressive here. What were you trying to say exactly with your initial post if you didn't mean to give anyone a town read but yourself? I'm confused. I don't think a plan other than "starting shit" is required for scum. That's always a good thing. Look at the difference between these two points - on the one hand (cora) is dismissed by saying "I don't think scum plays that way" whereas the second (Xatalos) is "I have skimmed it briefly and think it's different because X,Y,Z. Question, question. _____________________________ In regards to the point that you made about cora, I don't think he's "putting himself out there" like you suggest, he said that he couldn't dedicate some time towards the game but would still post actively and got picked up on it and was like OMGNUUWRONGRAWRRR!!!!!! and then didn't discuss why with people further or indicate that he had reads on other people because of what happened. He left the thread and then returned when people started mentioning Xatalos and piggybacked upon that with no new reasoning other than what people had said before. He mentions how people in the thread were piggybacking previously (me, etc.) and had qualms with them but then does the same thing here: On December 10 2013 07:10 Corazon wrote:
I do feel like Slam was right as well. If Xatalos was using good logic and pushing me like a townie, I wouldn't have a problem with him. However, he is using faulty logic on purpose and trying to pass it off as correct when in fact his conclusions only come about because he needs to fake pressure on me. This is contradictary with his previous approach of disliking people that piggybacking and is essentially +1ing another players points. Take this in B2B for example, people had a bad read on him and he DISCUSSED why it was bad: On November 21 2013 01:00 Corazon wrote:
When did I say that sciberia was bad town? Please find a post where I said he was bad town.
I didn't vote for sciberia because 0% of wagons in the first 2 hours of a game actually get to the deadline? None. What is the point of vote-jumping? It just allows people to skim my cases once they see the bold vote and only really look at it once it's my turn to be under the gun. Voting for people at this stage is pretty useless because it's not going to get a lynch going. I guarantee you that our reads and opinions are going to change before the deadline and it's useless to lock yourself in (or at least making a statement saying you are going to) 2 hours into a game.
That case was confirmation bias because you took 1-2 decent points about me (which alone are not enough to justify a vote or my lynching) and then supplemented them with saying "Corazon is doing stuff that he always does in every game, he has to be scum for it in this one". He mentions WHY the case was bad etc etc, discusses it and outlines why he thinks it was bad croming from X player. Where is that here? It was a dissmissal of a case from me and a sheep onto townish consesus Xatalos. __________________________________________ I don't like how these things are most definitely brushed off for simplicity that "I don't think scum do this" when there is a body of evidence that suggests a player does not play like this. Vote Cora for best lynch. These are definitely some good points. It's surely premature to declare Corazon as today's lynch, but it would be a good pick in the current situation. I dislike Artanis's dismissal of Corazon's play as well, but I doubt Artanis and Corazon would be scum together. It would seem risky to make a connection like that. That's WIFOM, though.
On December 10 2013 08:16 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 08:15 Alakaslam wrote:On December 10 2013 08:12 Xatalos wrote:On December 10 2013 08:04 Spaghetticus wrote:
Slam is actively obfuscating his intentions with spam. I don't like.
Corazon is a candidate for lynch day one, I'm waiting to see how he responds.
I am suspicious of you, but I think that is more a product of you being in the spotlight rather than any real problems I've got with you so far. I will continue to pay attention to your responses. Hmm, okay. When you say you don't "like", do you mean as in scummy or annoying? Dunno, Thanatos. What do you think? Judging by his vote, probably scummy. But it could be just an empty vote, I guess.
On December 10 2013 08:25 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 08:20 Alakaslam wrote:On December 10 2013 08:16 Xatalos wrote:On December 10 2013 08:15 Alakaslam wrote:On December 10 2013 08:12 Xatalos wrote:On December 10 2013 08:04 Spaghetticus wrote:
Slam is actively obfuscating his intentions with spam. I don't like.
Corazon is a candidate for lynch day one, I'm waiting to see how he responds.
I am suspicious of you, but I think that is more a product of you being in the spotlight rather than any real problems I've got with you so far. I will continue to pay attention to your responses. Hmm, okay. When you say you don't "like", do you mean as in scummy or annoying? Dunno, Thanatos. What do you think? Judging by his vote, probably scummy. But it could be just an empty vote, I guess. Be not dodging the question as askt What do you think? I think you're being suicidal if you're scum, so it's a bit more likely that you're town, but overall somewhat null so far.
Does he have any reads he's confident about?
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If you are willing to call someone unsure, then you should be sure about something they are unsure about.
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It is the start of day one. How confident can you expect him to be? I would be more worried if he was calling someone scum 100% at this point.
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Can we please lynch sidesprang?
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On December 10 2013 13:41 LSB wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 13:34 bumatlarge wrote:
Are there a lot of new players in this game? This game is just smurfs, old foogys, and a few others who've played a good amount of games
The slam is somewhat new.
Oh yeah; I'm back. How is lif- wait, I'll catch up then I will know.
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On December 10 2013 14:05 JarJarDrinks wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 08:32 Spaghetticus wrote:
I am not shifting my vote until slam does something useful to make up for his spam. I'm giving him until 6pm my time (7.5 hours from now) to do so or my vote is not changing at all regardless of anything that comes afterwards.
Pressure? yes.
Policy? yes.
Serious? yes. Very scummy post. You're actually saying that you may sit on your vote regardless of what happens in the thread? Basically giving yourself an built-in excuse to make your vote not matter (and unable to be analyzed) if slam isn't one of the leading wagons?
Ice is static, water flows, and fire grows, moves, and spreads.
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On December 10 2013 14:43 Alakaslam wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 14:05 JarJarDrinks wrote:On December 10 2013 08:32 Spaghetticus wrote:
I am not shifting my vote until slam does something useful to make up for his spam. I'm giving him until 6pm my time (7.5 hours from now) to do so or my vote is not changing at all regardless of anything that comes afterwards.
Pressure? yes.
Policy? yes.
Serious? yes. Very scummy post. You're actually saying that you may sit on your vote regardless of what happens in the thread? Basically giving yourself an built-in excuse to make your vote not matter (and unable to be analyzed) if slam isn't one of the leading wagons? Ice is static, water flows, and fire grows, moves, and spreads.
Are you quoting avatar?
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On December 10 2013 14:37 LSB wrote:
Can we please lynch sidesprang?
Side sprang strikes me as one who may be quite new.
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On December 10 2013 07:06 Corazon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 07:01 Xatalos wrote:On December 10 2013 06:53 Corazon wrote:
Lol can I go one game without being the first one voted.
Do you guys really think I'm more scummy at this point than Spag and Slam? I'm being open and honest with all of you. I'm not hiding anything. I've always tried to be genuine and not put up façades or wear masks. I'm telling you that I was going to be busy and I told you how I felt coming into this game. If you guys want to call me scum for that, go ahead. But just know that it is really silly to call me scum when Slam and Spag made one post and peaced out. Spag had to be coerced back into the thread and Slam still hasn't come back.
Plutarch wasn't trying to prod me for discussion; he was trying to twist my words and call me scum. Holyflare is just piggybacking off of everyone else's arguments to take town credit.
If you guys would look into the game, you would see that I am far from the scummiest player here. Also, it is good to know that you are all down for pressure voting so now I don't have to take your votes seriously until very close to the deadline. Sweet. Spagetticus and Alakaslam certainly didn't start in a townish way. But I have to ask which is worse: weak non-contribution (them) or passable non-contribution (you)? "passable non-contribution" doesn't exist. Your logic is flawed. My first post was contribution. You can call me out on it later if I contradict myself. You can't call Slam and Spag out on anything that they wrote in their first posts.
passable non-contribution is scummier. That is a really terrible criteria for a contribution lol. Slam's Chupazi style has been called out numerous times so he must be one of the towns most contributive members.
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On December 10 2013 14:46 bumatlarge wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 14:43 Alakaslam wrote:On December 10 2013 14:05 JarJarDrinks wrote:On December 10 2013 08:32 Spaghetticus wrote:
I am not shifting my vote until slam does something useful to make up for his spam. I'm giving him until 6pm my time (7.5 hours from now) to do so or my vote is not changing at all regardless of anything that comes afterwards.
Pressure? yes.
Policy? yes.
Serious? yes. Very scummy post. You're actually saying that you may sit on your vote regardless of what happens in the thread? Basically giving yourself an built-in excuse to make your vote not matter (and unable to be analyzed) if slam isn't one of the leading wagons? Ice is static, water flows, and fire grows, moves, and spreads. Are you quoting avatar?
No.
Ice-
Ice is not our friend. Ice is too cold. We seek warmth, indeed I seek the desert on this voyage.
Please understand, my friends, I shut up when you ask. I will also try to consolidate. But I am impatient, I have energy, I want to see Rayne... I failed him, I wanna understand him.
Unless he is stuck in ice...
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On December 10 2013 07:20 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 07:15 Alakaslam wrote:On December 10 2013 07:10 Xatalos wrote:On December 10 2013 07:06 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:04 Alakaslam wrote:On December 10 2013 07:00 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I don't like Xatalos right now and I'm curious if anyone sees what I see before I say why. Gladly oblige. Quick to hop on someone really really unreasonably early and with not the greatest logic in the world? My behavior right off is worse but he votes cora I am so bad I am useful to scum in the lategame, so he would rather mislynch cora who though not perfect, is definitely better at being town than me. Probably not exactly your point but I think you are also seeing the quick to lynch attitude. And the slightly unreasonable aggressiveness. I'm seeing a scattershot that's flinging poo everywhere and found someone to whom it will stick. I don't feel like he's trying to discern anyone's alignment, but rather start chaos and find a nice lynch target. ##Vote Xatalos Well, that's one way to look at it. The other is that I'm always relatively aggressive as town. You are? Where? Is meta defense weak? Give us the other sailing voyages you have made, surely you have ticket stubs? My latest town game is here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=423047&user=Xatalos¤tpage=3 I'm maybe slightly more passive there, but you can't see the aggression I put forth in the PM land during the beginning. Grackaroni can enlighten you perhaps.
Xatalos was really try hard and aggressive in mason chat. It was night one with only four of us allowed to talk and all we had to do was elect somebody. It wasn't going to be me so I didnt put much effort into my posts. He started attacking me with the logic that he had strong town reads on the other 2 players in my house because they were active so I am scum.
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Don't meta so early  let xalatos grooooowwww
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EPT
