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ImperialFist
790 Posts
On September 24 2013 04:46 AnomalySC2 wrote: lol he knows what he is doing. He could probably beat any player with any race pretty easily. You are completely out of your mind, sorry. | ||
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ACrow
Germany6583 Posts
On September 24 2013 04:46 larse wrote: The tank's attack speed buff is a 10% DPS buff, similar to 30(50) damage to (33)55 damage. I am not optimistic that this change will bring out mech TvP or TvZ. It will help the existing mech players like HTOMario and Avilo but it may not be a big incentive for others to play mech in TvP and TvZ. As David Kim said in the IEM Shanghai interview, he is reluctant to buff tank because he worries about tank in TvT. But certainly we will see more siege tank. Also, Not sure 1-1-1 will be useful after the buff when nexus cannon has a range of 13, same as siege tank. Oracle's gas reduction will only make it even earlier in the early game and this is opposite to their intention which is to increase its use in the mid-late-game. DT is the same speed as the buffed overseer. It's way too fast. I don't agree that it is the same. On paper, if it is shooting at units with unlimited health that don't move, it has the same DPS, but in reality it's way better. Tanks are overkilling a lot of the time, more damage just makes them overkill even more. Shooting faster on the other hand let's them minimize damage overdone, while blowing up more stuff by distributing their damage more intelligently to more targets. It let's them get more shots off before their buffering units are gone and they are just overwhelmed. Of course it might be that this change is not enough to let the tank make a come back in the non TvT matchups, but only testing will show. | ||
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H0i
Netherlands484 Posts
DT speed sounds a bit silly, they should give DTs some kind of useful upgrade on the dark shrine maybe... And buff carriers significantly, giving them 8 interceptors and the graviton catapult for free, while reducing the build time a lot, and perhaps doing something else because that way they still won't be good. Maybe make the interceptor attack one attack instead of two, so it's less affected by armor upgrades, because if you ever get carriers you will most likely have less air attack upgrades than your opponent has armor upgrades. Also nerf the tempest in some way so it doesn't destroy massive units so easily, that's just ridiculous. But still none of these things help protoss by giving them the stability they need. If they're ever going to do anything about this, colossi just have to go, and overcharge needs to be nerfed in trade for more gateway stability. Perhaps even delayed warpgate only available after twilight is complete, and more / more effective / different / split GW unit upgrades across cyber core and twilight. But really, all this comes down to blizzard needing to do something major and intelligent, and if that would happen it would be a real surprise to me... | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
I think he means most players, as in the entire SC2 player base, not pros.. That is a pretty safe bet that he can beat the vast majority of people who hate on the patch and thinks DK sucks at the game. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On September 24 2013 04:40 Plansix wrote: Lets face it, if they had buffed the oracle or DT is any way, people would have complained about all ins. It makes terrans have to be more careful and not just do that one or 2 openings that they always do. Or open reaper scout out where that gas is going. The DT buff doesn't really change DT all-ins at all. The timing might have a few seconds shaved off if they weren't made with a warp prism, but the solutions are still the same. Those all-ins were busted if the opponent made the right read and had detection. It's not hard to defend two bases from cloaked units. But now they're way faster out on the map, dodging overseers/observers/scans more easily, and (might) not immediately be dead if caught with detection. Pretty much everyone harassed with the much more tankier and cheaper chargelots anyways unless you're caught with your pants down (no static detection at fringe bases). But now, DT's are also able to get to fringe expansions much quicker without requiring your opponent to miss the proxy pylon/warp prism. I can see the logic in this buff, though putting them back into the archives would have probably have been a better buff IMO. The oracle change however doesn't really fix anything. The unit itself is like a Raven, except instead of having late game usefulness, it comes with the coin-flip fragility of a Banshee. And it doesn't change the fact that Robo is still just a better tech path than Stargate. This WILL be a direct buff to stargate all-ins. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
* The matchup where stargates are most useful is PvZ. However, oracles are useless in PvZ because of queens and spores. * Stargates cost too much gas for such a limited tech path in PvT. You need to get it early too, and that takes too much gas away from late game oriented investments, such as upgrades, aoe teach, etc. * Protoss needs a robotics in PvT for detection. They also need a twilight for upgrades. These are also necessary for either HT or Colossus. Getting a dark shrine delays your aoe tech, but it doesn't necessarily slow down your upgrades. * Once a dark shrine is finished, you can warp in dts and drop the terran. But oracles need to cross the entire map. If there's a turret or widow mine for defense, cya later harassment investment. * In PvT, oracles are easily hard-countered by turrets in the mid-late game. Turrets are actually important against protoss because of DTs and regular late game drops. Yet, you can still do damage with a warp prism and dts, keep a third cc from landing, etc. * Once they're hard-countered in PvT, all you can do is poke in and out and cast revelation. This could be useful against terran in the late game, yeah, but aside from that they're still useless. They need more versatility in the mid-late game to justify their cost and especially the cost of a stargate. After all, you're still getting upgrades and aoe in the mid game and a stargate adds nothing to that. * In PvP, oracles are way too gimmicky. They don't help much with map vision and make the matchup coinflippy. Why? If you go oracle, you can either do damage (or no damage), outright kill an expanding player, or die in stargate mirror because you fell behind in phoenix production. And maybe I'm wrong, but phoenixes don't do that much nowadays in PvP either and cost even more than oracles. As of late, the most stable army composition in PvP is chargelot immortal archon. You only need a stargate in the late game for tempests. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
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ImperialFist
790 Posts
On September 24 2013 04:53 Plansix wrote: I think he means most players, as in the entire SC2 player base, not pros.. That is a pretty safe bet that he can beat the vast majority of people who hate on the patch and thinks DK sucks at the game. Ah the epic irony Meanwhile every pro-gamer entertains the thought that DK is actually crazy. TBH I like DK, seems to be a really nice guy and sc2 balance is actually the hardest job in the world. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On September 24 2013 04:52 ACrow wrote: I don't agree that it is the same. On paper, if it is shooting at units with unlimited health that don't move, it has the same DPS, but in reality it's way better. Tanks are overkilling a lot of the time, more damage just makes them overkill even more. Shooting faster on the other hand let's them minimize damage overdone, while blowing up more stuff by distributing their damage more intelligently to more targets. It let's them get more shots off before their buffering units are gone and they are just overwhelmed. Of course it might be that this change is not enough to let the tank make a come back in the non TvT matchups, but only testing will show. it certainly helps against immortals their hard counter. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On September 24 2013 04:53 Plansix wrote: I think he means most players, as in the entire SC2 player base, not pros.. That is a pretty safe bet that he can beat the vast majority of people who hate on the patch and thinks DK sucks at the game. That makes more sense, but at the same time, it's pretty obvious that the community as a whole and David Kim disagree on some key issues regarding the design of some of these units. A lot of what they're buffing doesn't really make sense, and a lot of the nerfs are just so overdone. WM's really freaking sucked for the first few months but baring Innovation, Zergs are competing with Terran's on every level. David Kim is by far better than me, but I can't for the life me understand his reasoning. Maybe I suck too much. | ||
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Riquiz
Netherlands399 Posts
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larse
1611 Posts
On September 24 2013 04:49 Dauntless wrote: Siege Tank DPS DPS-wise, this basically means Siege Tanks always start with +1 (and then some), but it goes up to +4. If that isn't significant, I don't know what is. It's a 10% DPS buff. It's ok. The sky is not falling with 10% DPS ok? | ||
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Undead1993
Germany17651 Posts
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claybones
United States244 Posts
Also the widow mine change would reduce the overall splash area to around 40% which seems excessive. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On September 24 2013 04:54 rd wrote: The DT buff doesn't really change DT all-ins at all. The timing might have a few seconds shaved off if they weren't made with a warp prism, but the solutions are still the same. Those all-ins were busted if the opponent made the right read and had detection. It's not hard to defend two bases from cloaked units. But now they're way faster out on the map, dodging overseers/observers/scans more easily, and (might) not immediately be dead if caught with detection. Pretty much everyone harassed with the much more tankier and cheaper chargelots anyways unless you're caught with your pants down (no static detection at fringe bases). I can see the logic in this buff, though putting them back into the archives would have probably have been a better buff IMO. The oracle change however doesn't really fix anything. The unit itself is like a Raven, except instead of having late game usefulness, it comes with the coin-flip fragility of a Banshee. And it doesn't change the fact that Robo is still just a better tech path than Stargate. This WILL be a direct buff to stargate all-ins. So now, past 3-4 bases in TvP, I'm going to have DT's in my base, running around my production like invisible stimmed marines. Lovely. Like late game TvP wasn't hard enough. | ||
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Anachromy
United States194 Posts
adding more utility to the unit will prevent some of it's coin flippy-ness. instead of having situations where "Oh crap... detection, I lose" and "Nice, no detection! I Win!" now you can have this middle ground where "ok... there's a turret/spore up in the mineral line, I'll kill a few and retreat back, if I can fall back to my main army I'll make them archon's and add them to the army comp, expand, and continue my macro game." that sounds a lot more fun... right? When you commit to a tech path as Protoss. you really need to be able to do SOMETHING with it, no matter what. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 24 2013 04:58 Chaggi wrote: That makes more sense, but at the same time, it's pretty obvious that the community as a whole and David Kim disagree on some key issues regarding the design of some of these units. A lot of what they're buffing doesn't really make sense, and a lot of the nerfs are just so overdone. WM's really freaking sucked for the first few months but baring Innovation, Zergs are competing with Terran's on every level. David Kim is by far better than me, but I can't for the life me understand his reasoning. Maybe I suck too much. If by disagree, you mean that everyone is bias towards the race that they play and always whines when these test notes come out, then sure. Also, I would point that that there are a number of people in the thread who have said they like the changes. My twitter feed is full of players and casters that are also excited. I don't think the "entire community" really ever agrees on anything except that icecream is awesome and beer is good. Even then, we have people who refuse to come to the promised land. | ||
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ClueClueClue
Sweden1203 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On September 24 2013 04:59 Chaggi wrote: So now, past 3-4 bases in TvP, I'm going to have DT's in my base, running around my production like invisible stimmed marines. Lovely. Like late game TvP wasn't hard enough. Or you could just have a turret up near a depot wall and watch your mini-map. | ||
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Aquila-
516 Posts
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