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On July 21 2007 22:48 caution.slip wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2007 17:53 Frits wrote: That sounds fun for ambushing and stuff, I'm guessing once they start shooting (if it's a ranged unit) it'll be visible but there'll be a chance to miss ?
They said that when units fire form high ground to low ground people, the low ground people won't be revealed, iirc BC might be huge but look how fast a warpray killed one From what i understand of what they're doing with SC2, its going to be more units on screen, faster deployment of units (warpgate, building 2 marines at once), better unit mobility. That means units are going to cost less. They said 1000/1000 was 10 zealots and 5 reavers? Obviously a zealot isint going to be 100 minerals anymore
The way I read the article, they were saying 1000/1000 is the equivalent of 10 zealots OR 5 reavers, which is in line with BW costs (I imagine they just mean mineral wise, otherwise Zealots cost gas now...).
That said, my German isn't 100%.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On July 21 2007 21:22 InRaged wrote: The "strange" is they didn't step yet into balance tweak phase. Is it so hard to understand? There is time for everything, everything is good in its season. If they try to balance in the middle of the designing they will end up with both bad balance and bad design. Adding each new unique unit will be a huge problem. Needless to say they merely started with zerg and even protoss isn't complete yet. In every work there is the basic rule - start with big strokes, end with tiny details. Units cost and build time, radar dome sight radius, Battle Cruisers' AoE damage - they're all tiny details that should be added only after big strokes. Lol I wasn't complaining :[ Even if all their numbers were completely wrong and BCs did 5000 damage and had 9000 hp it wouldn't make it through the beta so I don't care at all about that stuff.
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This might have changed now but in the gameplay video the unit costs were almost exactly the same as in SC:BW.
Unit Stats
I think it will stay this way. But the cost of a unit like the mothership cant realy be compared to the costs of other units. Since you can only build one of them you might aswell add the cost for the building needed to produce it and all the tech costs for its spells.
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On July 21 2007 19:37 FrozenArbiter wrote: Konni, they said the Mothership will cost 400/400... -.-;; So either they've made some huge fucking changes to what things cost (I mean that's cheaper than a BC..) or something is strange.
Well, for high tech units, I wouldn't get as worried just yet (although I am still concerned) about low costs. If I recall, Blizzard will reduce the cost of something high tech during testing to encourage a lot of usage... to then see if it's too good or just how expensive it should be. If they don't lower the cost, a lot of serious/better gamers probably staylow tech because it's less of a risk, etc.
And since the Mothership is a one unit only deal... it is probably less of a worry than balancing WarpRays, Tempests and BCs. Because if there is only one, then you know exactly what you'll need to counter it for the most part. It'll make testing it that much easier, I think, so they can get it right.
Or Blizzard is smoking crack and the Mothership is going to be ridiculous.
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On July 21 2007 15:32 CharlieMurphy wrote: -snip-
I think its cool how they took the best abilities of some of the lesser used units and combined them into 1 unit. Arby/Darkon/HT etc.
-snip-
Since vulture mines are apparently out (I'm going to miss 'em a lot from the Terran perspective... I'm going to not miss them as much from the Protoss perspective), I don't totally mind seeing Halluc going to a later tech unit because late game is when the spell was used the most. Plus, yeah, it was really hard to give up Storm for some Hallucs when using High Templar.
Stasis on High Templar... 15 seconds... depending on the mana cost this could be intersting, but I have the feeling Storm is going to be better in so many situations. Let's see. On expo defense, the stasis will probably be better to block your expo choke against mass lings/ultras while waiting for reinforcements. It makes sense to use it on bunkers as in the video, but only if bunkers are used. But I don't see stasis on ground units with likely short range casting being as useful vs siege tanks as stasis on arbiters.
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The real stats-balancing is going to happen after the release anyway, and also with the expansion. Thousands of hours of play is needed to find out what is strong and what's not. Of course blizz will try to approximate the correct stats before release but it will all change anyway.
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On July 21 2007 10:24 fig_newbie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2007 09:18 Ziel wrote:Thors look way too big for a dropship, so maybe BCs will transport them? thors look like they can carry a BC on each arm O_o. btw I DON'T understand why theres so much hatred for the ghost marine drops. How is it not consistent with Starcraft? Its certainly consistent with the friggin unit. Its appropriate that a recon type unit like a ghost (and dont say hes not, cloak and snipe) would be able to call down a dropship "strike" in the same manner as a nuclear missile. If anything id say the nuclear missiles are LESS "starcraft" than the marine drops.
One reason for me, is that you already have dropships and marines. Why don't you just drop them yourself with a dropship? Summoning marines is just so awkward. Whereas, a Nuke can only be done with a Ghost.
It'd be kind of like a zerg defiler casting "send 4 overlords over with zerglings" where the overlords and zerglings disappear (?) and reappear next to the defiler, bypassing turrets. It just sounds like something I can do with a little effort, so why make it an ability that bypasses the normal confines of the game?
On the flip side, if this is the only way Blizzard is going to keep dropships from carrying 8 marines, then I'll certainly deal with it. I still have the feeling 8 marines in a dropship is just a little too good vs Zerg's thinly spread expos, especially in mid-game.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On July 22 2007 07:25 DrainX wrote:This might have changed now but in the gameplay video the unit costs were almost exactly the same as in SC:BW. Unit StatsI think it will stay this way. But the cost of a unit like the mothership cant realy be compared to the costs of other units. Since you can only build one of them you might aswell add the cost for the building needed to produce it and all the tech costs for its spells. Ah yes that's a good point, I didn't really think of how since you can only have 1 at a time the first time you get it it will cost 1000/1000 instead.
Btw, the more I think about it the more I hate the cobra. I mean what they've done is taken out the vulture (one of the most fun units for terran imo) and replaced it with a super generic 'rail-gun hover thing' that has no special abilities (that we know of).
Then they take the spider mines - what other game has running mines - and make them into some kind of demolition pack for reapers -_-? I don't mind change I just dislike when you take something good and change it just because you want to change.. and the new thing is less interesting.
I mean come on, so many art moments with spider mines: NaDa vs Reach on forbidden zone, when that 1 mine blew up all of reach's probes.
Reach vs iloveoov on requiem when his zealot bombs obliterated oov's army.
Reach vs Silent_control on Nostalgia, boom, zealot drop
And all the cool shuttle vs mines micro, ie dropping a unit and picking it up as the mine explodes so you kill the mine but take no damage.
I hope the cobra is interesting but it's definitely one of the units I dislike the most the more I think about it, assuming we are correct in that it replaces the vulture.
I love the reaper, I love the Thor (although I could have thought of much more interesting attacks than heavy artillery, like.. oversized claw or a gigantic welder! *grumbles*), I like the Viking, I don't mind the Banshee, etcetcetcetc because they are all interesting.
Maybe there's something about the cobra we dunno that makes it super cool (turbo boost? :D). Maybe it still lays mines.
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Now you are making me miss Vultures even more. Mines were really fun and unique.
And with Cobras hitting land and air on the move (on the move was taken away from goliaths and tanks in the old beta b/c it was deeded too good)... what the heck is their weakness going to be? Reavers and tanks? Lurkers? Maybe their damage type is very specific or they are going to have terrible hitpoints. And yeah, they need some interesting special, for sure.
So I wonder... are all Terran units except tanks and banshees going to be able to hit air? Wow.
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Sweden33719 Posts
I'm still holding out for the reaper weapon change from pistols to flamethrowers One of my favorite terran moves in the past was to make a proxy rax outside their base and lift it in, produce firebats and run for the probes. Tried to do it every chance I got.
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So, fire comin' out their jetpacks and fire coming out their weapon? You know how much fuel you'd have to carry? Haha.
Also, I see a lot of neat possibilities with the Ghost call down ability. A small (possibly) cloaked unit can get in places drop ships can't. Also, if you haven't noticed, the new drop ships have to land first before they can deploy their load. The Ghost's call down is (most likely) instant. I don't think it hurts the game, since it's only six marines and if ghosts still maintain their place on the tech tree, they're all the way up it.
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I agree. The Vulture was the best designed unit in starcraft imo. It was cheap but if used right and given enough care it was worth 10x its cost. It realy was a model for how I think units should be. Sad to see it gone. Not that we know much about the cobra yet.. maybe they are realy fun to micro or something.. id want to see them in a gameplay video or play the game myself before I make up my mind. But I am sad to see the vulture go if that final =(
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On July 22 2007 09:29 Blacklizard wrote: Now you are making me miss Vultures even more. Mines were really fun and unique.
And with Cobras hitting land and air on the move (on the move was taken away from goliaths and tanks in the old beta b/c it was deeded too good)... what the heck is their weakness going to be? Reavers and tanks? Lurkers? Maybe their damage type is very specific or they are going to have terrible hitpoints. And yeah, they need some interesting special, for sure.
So I wonder... are all Terran units except tanks and banshees going to be able to hit air? Wow.
They've already said that Thor will have no anti-air as well.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On July 22 2007 10:24 quasi -QS- wrote: So, fire comin\' out their jetpacks and fire coming out their weapon? You know how much fuel you\'d have to carry? Haha.
Also, I see a lot of neat possibilities with the Ghost call down ability. A small (possibly) cloaked unit can get in places drop ships can\'t. Also, if you haven\'t noticed, the new drop ships have to land first before they can deploy their load. The Ghost\'s call down is (most likely) instant. I don\'t think it hurts the game, since it\'s only six marines and if ghosts still maintain their place on the tech tree, they\'re all the way up it. Pff, fuck realism :D Flaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamethrowah
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Thor should have giant razors to make mincemeat out of zerglings, or there should be a terran razor tank, it would make things interesting ^_^
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I would be cool if you could built the Viking mech form in factories and the air fighter form in starports and the transformation upgrade would be high tech.
btw I also dont like the Cobra. Its so "generic" blah
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On July 22 2007 11:23 Senix wrote: I would be cool if you could built the Viking mech form in factories and the air fighter form in starports and the transformation upgrade would be high tech.
btw I also dont like the Cobra. Its so "generic" blah The reason the cobra sound so generic might be that we have so little info on it so far... or that blizzard arnt done with it yet. Lets wait and see how it turns out ?
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Its just like a marine, only it can move and shoot, and it probably moves faster, although it will cost more and take up more space in a drop ship.
hmm..but can humans invent transforming mechs in that duration of time? I guess tanks already transform
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Vultures and Marines are the things that I like the most about Terran. I think they could just redesign the Vulture (but keep the same basic structure) and change its main weapon a bit and it would be good. Maybe give it some new ability. Definitely must keep Spider Mines! And keep the name Vulture. Vulture>>>>Cobra.
I don't know about it being able to attack air, it sort of loses some of its charm for some reason.
I'm really not sure about the Thor. It's just so boring for terran to have a big ass robot filled with weapons. I think they just need to tone it down a little. Make it more like a buffed up GoliathX3.
Bashee is really interesting although it could use some tweaks in the design (and the name). I've said this before but one thing that bothers me about it is that it feels to me like it doesn't belong in the Terran army. Terran has extremely powerful ground-to-ground units as well as ground-to-air and air-to-air. It feels out of place to give it a powerful air-to-ground unit. Guardians are one of the things that makes Zerg unique, now we have this Bashee stealing Zerg's thunder T__T
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well, if it's really the sole unit designed to fire "on the move" (others would do with micromanagement) it will have some kind of uniqueness. I'm wondering whether Blizzard wants to allow for fire on the move because this way they can tweak more easily units stats knowing that both average players and gosu will use it on the move (think of it : vultures were designed not to be cost effective against zealoths if not micromanaged, but sure were in the hands of a good micro player).
Perhaps the cobra won't be cost effective if it stands still while fighting, but in open space it may kite ennemies with ease.
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