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This is just a rant that I want to get off my chest because it has been bugging me. I'm a Computer Game Science major (student still), so I think about game design a lot. I have had tons of thoughts on SCII, and although this is kinda different from what I normally post here, I want to get this out in the open.
HotS is a new game. It's fresh and interesting with new strategies revolving around the new units. Some cool cosmetic things were added, interface changes to help promote tournaments were added, balance changes that should have been done ages ago were finally implemented, and they added some fun social aspects into the game as well, but that doesn't fundamentally change what starcraft is. An RTS with a stagnant meta game and focus on the individual.
I understand that with HotS out the action is much more fast paced and fun to play and to watch, but how long will it last?
As WoL finished, players were getting bored with the game and switched to others like DOTA 2 and LoL because of the "meta" game and a variety of other reasons (no social aspects, not enough extrinsic rewards, not enough time, etc). Players were doing the same strategy all the time because it was just better than others. Casters knew what players were doing, and often times could predict how the game was going to develop because they have seen it so often. I know that Blizzard has been trying to make other strategies more viable (sky toss / mech vs protoss / roach hydra), but I doubt it will really change the game the way it is right now.
Because HotS is new right now, all the games are unique while are players trying out new strategies. I also like watching the game being innovated, but two / three years from now, right before LotV is going to come out, the meta will have made a solid impact on the game, and I'm almost certain that the game will be the same as it was at the end of WoL. Player base will fall because of boredom and frustration with the game. Last expansion it was "OMG BL INFESTOR SO OP BLIZZARD IS STUPID FOR NOT FIXING THIS HERP DERP" and soon there will be a new strategy that will almost impossible to deal with, and there probably won't be much change from the community without some changes in game.
What can be changed? What can we learn from other games that have been successful?
Games like Dota 2 (and I'm going to assume almost all MOBAs are like this as well) are incredibly interesting for a viewer because different teams have different strategies, and players can play almost any hero they want and it will still be "viable." With 10 different heroes in every game, and almost 100 heroes out there are a huge amount of different outcomes and interesting strategies involved (Yes, I know that teams need a certain composition of supports / carries and whatnot in order to be viable, but even then it's a huge number of possibilities).
The meta game changes rapidly as well because of this huge number. Players discover good strategies, heroes (*cough* Dark Seer *cough*), item compliments, and more. Even if you watch every single Dota game, the chances that you will see the same team vs same team with the same item builds and strategies would be almost impossible.
Also, MOBA games in general have a huge social appeal, and are very nice to casual players. Players need team work in order to win games, and sharing strategies, ideas, and item builds between team mates is imperative of player improvement as well as meta game development.
People have suggested a variety of ideas that would be interesting to see in SCII. I'll just post some of my favorites and elaborate on them a little. Also, I want to add some of my own ideas 
Clan Battles -
This a nice social aspect that can be added. I believe that Blizzard has intentions of adding a feature like this into the game. I'm not sure what they are going to add, but adding additional features that are clan specific would be nice as well. For example, in DOTA 2 they have displayed team flags / logos spread out, and having something like a decal that is clan specific which players can choose from would be nice. Achievements as well as customized skins / portraits for these achievements would really force a player to get into the community if they wanted something that looks awesome. This would also help players teach each other and learn from one another. For a format of clan battles, I personally think that a 6 vs 6 format would be nice (4 1v1 games with a 2v2 game integrated, first to 3 wins, or something like that [I think this is similar to the CSL and Prince of Tennis, which I also like :D LOLOLOLOLOL]). Maybe even something smaller would be effective so a group of close friends could battle their way to the top (3v3 [3 1v1s] or 4v4 [2 1v1 games and 1 2v2]).
TL;DR:
+ Show Spoiler +Add clan battles with more clan features (i.e. clan decals / custom skins / achievements).
Avoid nerfing (as much as possible), focus on Buffing units -
I know that not nerfing units is almost impossible, but I think it should be avoided. Units like the medivac with its boost, oracle with its ridiculous dmg to light units, viper's strong abilities (inb4 OMG VIPER ISNT OP YOU NOOB) are all fun to watch in the hands of a pro player. Multi-tasking is more rewarded when there are more options, and looking back at BW, there were ridiculously strong abilities / units that seem stupidly OP as well. i.e. seige tanks killing everything, defiler's PLAYYYGUUU, protoss recall / stasis field (inb4 BW WAS PERFECT SHUT UP EVERYTHING WAS BALANCED). If units that aren't used as often were able to get their upgrades / ideas revitalized to make them "viable" it would help morph the meta game constantly and keep it interesting and fun to see.
TL;DR:
+ Show Spoiler +The game is fun to play and interesting to watch because of ridiculous spells / abilities.
Adding some more customization for players on ladder -
A player's account level isn't really being used for much at the moment. Sure, you can get lvl 30 protoss / terran / zerg so you can get all the custom skins and whatnot, but there could be a little more added like a talent-point system from MMORPGs, or even more specific, something like the talent points from Bloodline Champions.
+ Show Spoiler +The player lvl increases the more he / she plays and tiers of talents allow players to choose from dmg / life / speed / some cool custom abilities at each lvl
Players would be able to use certain upgrades from campaign specifically for the ability tier. Custom upgrades specifically with multi-player in mind would be ideal [e.g. give forge / evolution chamber / engineering bay an upgrade so that vespene gas w/ no workers needed / unit-specific additional range / armor]. The talents that actually change gameplay should be easily obtainable. Nobody likes grinding for gear / lvls just to be competitive *cough WoW cough* (blah blah blah but it gives players a sense of achievement blah blah blah if they want to do that, just add more aesthetics for the end tiers or something). Adding some more customization also helps build the community so they talk to each other figuring out which would be the best, theory crafting, etc etc.
TL;DR:
+ Show Spoiler +Add a talent-point esque system for players for their account level
This idea probably won't work at all, but:
Add more units -
Obviously has to be 3 at a time (one for each race). After LotV comes out, I don't expect there to be a new starcraft coming out for a long time. Adding a few new units every half a year / so, and changing units with the previous idea would be ideal. I think that this would help keep players interested in the game, and reward the most innovating players with the strongest mechanics. I know that balancing this would be almost impossible so I'm kinda sketchy on this one. This makes the game more like a MOBA, but the meta for those types of game is almost never stagnant which is nice.
TL;DR:
+ Show Spoiler +Keep the game dynamic with adding more units and spells. It'll make the game more interesting to watch.
Just some final thoughts:
I have enjoyed the years that I have played SCII incredibly. I love the community and this game more than any other I have known. With the release of HotS, I love the game more and love the fact that the community is getting bigger. I just don't want it to have to suffer at the end of this expansion as well. What I have typed down are just some ideas that I've had recently, and I know that there are obviously more creative people that can come up with much better ideas than what I have put up here, and that most of these ideas will looked over and never implemented. There are also some things that weren't brought up such as the constant action of MOBA games, synergy of teams, and things like that, but that's for another blog entry maybe lol. I get that a lot of people won't like these changes, but there's always a DO NOT DISPLAY THIS CRAP radio button in the options for players that like it old school, right? Anything that increases the amount of people playing this game would make me happy.
Also, most of what I have posted have been direct thoughts to Blizzard that seem like they cannot be implemented without changing the programming of the game. This isn't true.
These changes can be done elsewhere as well. Tournaments for clans could be run on websites just like Playhem has done. Programs like SC2Gears I believe would be able to track a players wins, and make their own achievement system / reward system. Also, players would be able to make custom games for new units / upgrades, just as they did for WoL right before HotS came out. I just want everyone to learn from what has been taught in WoL, and even if blizzard doesn't step up to the plate, I hope that the community does.
OVERALL TL;DR:
+ Show Spoiler +At the end WoL was stagnant and people got tired of the game, and without some changes I seriously think that HotS / LOTV is going to end up the same way.
  
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It took a long time for WoL to become stagnant (2 years), and this was mainly do to problems with zerg (queen buff, infestors). So you think HotS will be the same way in a couple of years? So what if that happens? There will be another expansion to follow. After the final expansion, they'll be able to add more changes if needed, since they won't have to save those changes for another expansion.
Edit: I like your ideas for improving the game, but you have to keep in mind that the payment strategy is not F2P with an online store. You pay once, so it doesn't make sense from a financial point of view to add so many features. I personally wish they would just forget the campaign, make it F2P, have an online store, and just focus on the online multiplayer experience, but that's not the case.
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I disagree, if you want to play a MOBA you can choose out of several ones available but please leave our Starcraft alone. Broodwar was fanatically played for 10 years despite the same units all the time.
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This guy clearly plays League and is trying to troll the TL community. Only 12 posts, must be new and have only watched a few streamers. Furthermore, (no hate) this guy has to bronze to think the game is stagnant especially since it just came out.
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This guy clearly plays League and is trying to troll the TL community. Only 12 posts, must be new and have only watched a few streamers. Furthermore, (no hate) this guy has to bronze to think the game is stagnant especially since it just came out.
Meanwhile you fail to read his post thoroughly, attack him with an ad hominem and fail to address any of his multiple assertions or arguments critically. Who be trolling, mon?
I disagree, if you want to play a MOBA you can choose out of several ones available but please leave our Starcraft alone. Broodwar was fanatically played for 10 years despite the same units all the time.
Broodwar is a unique case (no other RTS game has had anywhere like as much success), and being such it's very hard to determine what made it successful. It's very possible it succeeded in spite of its static unit pool, rather than because of it. Consequently, it's very possible that you are adhering to the status quo through mindless ignorance, because you haven't made any logical arguments as to why the above would be bad. The game is not 'ours', and frankly you have less claim on it than the Moba community, who are significantly larger and more influential in terms of legitimising esports. I don't denigrate starcraft, being a broodwar fanatic myself, but I don't have any illusions as to where starcraft sits in the overall scheme of things.
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On March 20 2013 08:25 Thereisnosaurus wrote:Show nested quote +This guy clearly plays League and is trying to troll the TL community. Only 12 posts, must be new and have only watched a few streamers. Furthermore, (no hate) this guy has to bronze to think the game is stagnant especially since it just came out. Meanwhile you fail to read his post thoroughly, attack him with an ad hominem and fail to address any of his multiple assertions or arguments critically. Who be trolling, mon?
Post too long, basic understanding was he is attacking SC2, thus commenced automated assumption about where his opinions are coming from.
User was temp banned for this post.
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I think clan battles are the only thing you listed that makes sense..
On March 20 2013 08:25 Thereisnosaurus wrote:Show nested quote +This guy clearly plays League and is trying to troll the TL community. Only 12 posts, must be new and have only watched a few streamers. Furthermore, (no hate) this guy has to bronze to think the game is stagnant especially since it just came out. Meanwhile you fail to read his post thoroughly, attack him with an ad hominem and fail to address any of his multiple assertions or arguments critically. Who be trolling, mon? Show nested quote +I disagree, if you want to play a MOBA you can choose out of several ones available but please leave our Starcraft alone. Broodwar was fanatically played for 10 years despite the same units all the time. Broodwar is a unique case (no other RTS game has had anywhere like as much success), and being such it's very hard to determine what made it successful. It's very possible it succeeded in spite of its static unit pool, rather than because of it. Consequently, it's very possible that you are adhering to the status quo through mindless ignorance, because you haven't made any logical arguments as to why the above would be bad. The game is not 'ours', and frankly you have less claim on it than the Moba community, who are significantly larger and more influential in terms of legitimising esports. I don't denigrate starcraft, being a broodwar fanatic myself, but I don't have any illusions as to where starcraft sits in the overall scheme of things.
no, it's not possible at all. BW was magical because even with its "static unit pool" there were moments where players would figure out something new that destroys the current trends (Bisu build, Fantasy Build, etc) and the excitement that gave was unrivaled. you'll rarely, if ever, get the same kind of feeling with a game that's being changed continuously, which is he's suggesting. honestly it's the reason why BW matches were much more memorable than SC2 or Moba matches.
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On March 20 2013 08:25 Thereisnosaurus wrote:Show nested quote +This guy clearly plays League and is trying to troll the TL community. Only 12 posts, must be new and have only watched a few streamers. Furthermore, (no hate) this guy has to bronze to think the game is stagnant especially since it just came out. Meanwhile you fail to read his post thoroughly, attack him with an ad hominem and fail to address any of his multiple assertions or arguments critically. Who be trolling, mon? Show nested quote +I disagree, if you want to play a MOBA you can choose out of several ones available but please leave our Starcraft alone. Broodwar was fanatically played for 10 years despite the same units all the time. Broodwar is a unique case (no other RTS game has had anywhere like as much success), and being such it's very hard to determine what made it successful. It's very possible it succeeded in spite of its static unit pool, rather than because of it. Consequently, it's very possible that you are adhering to the status quo through mindless ignorance, because you haven't made any logical arguments as to why the above would be bad. The game is not 'ours', and frankly you have less claim on it than the Moba community, who are significantly larger and more influential in terms of legitimising esports. I don't denigrate starcraft, being a broodwar fanatic myself, but I don't have any illusions as to where starcraft sits in the overall scheme of things.
I am pretty sure to say that the majority of the people playing Starcraft don't want hero units or new units every 3/6 or whatever months. The community as a whole prefers a stable metagame which allows them to develop their skills in a stable environment. I don't even care about esports arguments, if I don't have fun playing the game. I am confident to say that every person who actively plays Starcraft does that because they think it is fun how it is and not because of a professional scene.
Esports in RTS games is largely based on continuity like in Starcraft or Warcraft and things throwing balance over and over again are detrimental to the skill which can be showcased by players.
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Lol, SC2 metagame being stagnant. Someone definitely hasn't followed SC2 for very long.
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After reading the responses to the initial post I do understand that probably adding more units and whatnot will not be a good choice. It would break what pretty much defines what an RTS is, and I didn't really think thoroughly enough about that (kinda why I was sketchy on that idea).
BW was magical because even with its "static unit pool" there were moments where players would figure out something new that destroys the current trends (Bisu build, Fantasy Build, etc)
I also understand that BW was amazing, but from what I have heard the community was much much smaller than what it is today. E-sports is appealing a much wider audience now, and I just wanted to try and think of ways to appeal to as many people into the game as possible.
I just feel as though SCII rewards are much too intrinsic for many people, and while a person can say "oh yea I'm doing so much better now, I can keep my macro up well while still microing around," or "I feel like I'm getting so much better at the game" that's not as instantaneously rewarding as a "Oh sweet, I've got a new skin for my hero, he looks so cool now!"
Lol, SC2 metagame being stagnant. Someone definitely hasn't followed SC2 for very long.
I have been following SCII from the beta. Terrans were going specifically reapers vs zerg, expansions were almost impossible to take, maps were terrible, and everyone didn't know what they were doing. The game was changing constantly and I know that, it was ridiculously fun to watch at that point. BUT at the end of WoL though, the game was not changing ever since the range 5 queens. BL Infestor non-stop for almost a full year with "patch zergs."
Furthermore, (no hate) this guy has to bronze to think the game is stagnant especially since it just came out.
Going to feed the troll a little bit here: I was not talking about HotS meta game at all. Nothing is stagnant at the moment because the game has just come out. I was making references to what is going to come, but I guess you wouldn't understand that unless you read the post. Also, I'm a master's league player.
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Games like Dota 2 (and I'm going to assume almost all MOBAs are like this as well) are incredibly interesting for a viewer because different teams have different strategies, and players can play almost any hero they want and it will still be "viable." With 10 different heroes in every game, and almost 100 heroes out there are a huge amount of different outcomes and interesting strategies involved (Yes, I know that teams need a certain composition of supports / carries and whatnot in order to be viable, but even then it's a huge number of possibilities). Lol is damn boring to watch.
Also, MOBA games in general have a huge social appeal, and are very nice to casual players. Players need team work in order to win games, and sharing strategies, ideas, and item builds between team mates is imperative of player improvement as well as meta game development.
This much is true. Mobas are designed to be more social than certain rts.
I don't really think much will change though. SC just isn't as casual as LoL. LoL nerfs things all the time. In fact it's so lame that even if you are slightly better than your opponent you often can't kill them because the game awards passivity.
I'm a member of the old guard and to me BW was fun because BGH and (sometimes fastest, though frustrating) were fun, and UMS were fun. I hated leavers, but LoL has already gotten to a point where there are almost no leavers in (ranked) games. The same should easily be doable with a game that doesn't have a pay to play model but instead links accounts to unique access codes. I've gotten older and LoL is more interesting now, but that doesn't mean that SC2 is completely out of the running as top game. There's just a lot they have to do differently and changes to melee, unless they're big aren't likely to bring me back. All my friends play Mobas now. Why would I go back to SC?
It's not even free to play, not any of it. You can't even play a demo version where all you get is joining already made UMS and so you can't introduce new friends to it like you can LoL.
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I disagree with most of the things said in your post, however I do understand where your coming from.
Different people like SC for different reasons,
I for example prefer SC to Warcraft 3 greatly because it has as little randomness as possible in it
(no 30% miss up cliff, 3-5 damage numbers etc)
I love the units and the strategies in SC2, and im pretty sure I could have played WOL Another year. Its just normal that people will stop playing a game over time.
I also think its an incredibly smart decision of blizzard to make 2 Expansions, giving them the possibility to adress major concerns with large "content" fixes. The game has become much more dynamic than WOL.
Im sure that once HOTS gets "figured out", and problems with gameplay arrive - Blizzard will adress those issues in LOTV.
LOTV Will be well rounded, and a great game that endures.
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Please, just stop comparing RTS to MOBA.
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Honestly, I don't see how someone can claim LoL is interesting because "every team has different strategies". LoL has a ridiculously solid meta, the whole AD-supp bot, AP mid, tanky AD top + jungler meta has been the go-to strategy for ages. Not even the massive changes in S3 has put a dent in it. Sure, teams use different strategies to some extent, some like to attempt to turtle, some like to be really aggressive... but compared to Dota 2, LoL has a ridiculously stagnant meta.
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SC2 is just lucky that no other decent Developer (read: Valve, who else is there anymore?) wants to make a AAA multiplayer focused RTS... The fact that it has no competition makes Sc2 look good and thats all what there is to say about it's quality.
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On March 20 2013 07:40 Chiyosuke wrote:
HotS is a new game. It's fresh and interesting with new strategies revolving around the new units. Some cool cosmetic things were added, interface changes to help promote tournaments were added, balance changes that should have been done ages ago were finally implemented, and they added some fun social aspects into the game as well, but that doesn't fundamentally change what starcraft is. An RTS with a stagnant meta game and focus on the individual.
I understand that with HotS out the action is much more fast paced and fun to play and to watch, but how long will it last?
As WoL finished, players were getting bored with the game and switched to others like DOTA 2 and LoL because of the "meta" game and a variety of other reasons (no social aspects, not enough extrinsic rewards, not enough time, etc). Players were doing the same strategy all the time because it was just better than others. Casters knew what players were doing, and often times could predict how the game was going to develop because they have seen it so often. I know that Blizzard has been trying to make other strategies more viable (sky toss / mech vs protoss / roach hydra), but I doubt it will really change the game the way it is right now.
I am not a Broodwar expert at all, but from what I understand, Terrans were incredibly underestimated untill people like Boxer and NadA showed the world how to play Terran properly. Yet this took awhile untill people picked up on it.
My point?
Stop trying to claim certain strategies are always the same because they are stronger, in a game where there's near-infinite
possibilities for you to approach and play the game. An example: 2011 the Protoss deathball has been very dominant, just like late 2012 it was the Parting Immortal Build. We could claim "Oh my god so stagnant!" but instead we're to look at the ways to beat it. That's what an RTS game is about aswell. That people switched to another game has nothing to do with the metagame. I believe that with every expansion that Blizzard makes (see WoW for example) people will start slacking right before the lauch because.. why would you play a game that's being updated soon.
Aside of that, you seem to forget to consider the sheer amount of players which played on the beta for the last period of WoL just to get familiar with HotS.
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I think starcraft is just not for everyone, its like the same reason that competitive chess isnt that popular.
Starcraft is a hard game to master, i mean, if you look to Dota games, you will figure out how to move around your hero really quick, but in starcraft, even to master the basics of the game is pretty hard. Its how society works these days, people dont have the patience anymore, they want quick action without having to spent weeks to figure out how to make these actions.
Imagine you are new to starcraft, and want to try and compete online? Even in bronze league you would atleast need to master your hotkeys first and the very basic mechanics. Imagine how disappointing this is to people who just dont have the motivation or dedication to spent hours and hours to figure things out. Ofcourse at the release of starcraft 2 there was probably a hype, oh blizzard, a famous developper made a new game based on a old famous game, lets try it.....but in the end, only the people who truely love the game, and enjoy putting hours and hours into practice, figuring out strategy, how to improve, how to get a edge, these are the ones that stay.. sad reality is that this doesnt include 99% of the world population. But that shouldnt be a reason to make doom posts (not saying this is one..but you know what i mean..), if you really love the game, then it doesnt matter how many people it is played by.
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Starcraft is an RTS, not MOBA.
Adding talents, more unique abilities, etc... would only make the game tougher to balance and completely wrong. Imagine trying to macro, multi-prong attack, micro, AND worry about special abilities? Add random talents that make things more random in each matchup and you have even more of a mess. How would you even prepare for matches when you don't know what talent points were spent where, and would those talent points affect your builds?
One thing that has proven starcraft even before brood war to make things funner and exciting to watch has been maps. The better and different the maps are, the more different playstyles you will see that are still bound to the same units and balance.
In starcraft players shine because of strategy, mechanics, and execution of tactics. The audience responds well to what starcraft is at its core, you don't need to change that, you can build on it.
Lets add new abilities to chess pieces, it's meta has become to stagnant right?
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I have read the responses again and have heard a lot of talk about comparing RTS to MOBAs, constant meta game changes and whatnot.
What I'm saying is that in RTS games, because of strategies that are constantly executed, get boring for the viewer to watch, and without more options or changing options the game will eventually stagnate to what the end of BW and WoL ended up as. E.G. Terran always going MMM, sure the strategy is fun to watch because of multi-tasking and whatnot, but it still gets boring because you see it every time.
I have no LoL experience, nor do I care to watch the game so I explicitly only made examples from Dota 2, sorry that the generalization was over exaggerated on that part.
Stop trying to claim certain strategies are always the same because they are stronger, in a game where there's near-infinite possibilities for you to approach and play the game.
Yes there are a lot of strategies that a player can use. Yes they are almost infinite, but if you are going to count them all you're including builds like going ling infestor into roach hydra where your missing tons of upgrades and spreading out your tech to a point where you won't be as optimal as possible. Or a more common example, ultralisks for zerg or going mech vs protoss. These strategies were tried by pro-players and were rarely used, and when they had a large enough loss ratio after trying it they switched to a more solid comp like BL or MMM.
exciting to watch has been maps
I like this point a lot, but because of the way the community is / was the maps also became stagnant because people were so obsessed with "fair win rates" and "this map is balanced" that there were almost no new maps.
magine trying to macro, multi-prong attack, micro, AND worry about special abilities?
All of the special abilities that I suggested were able to be integrated into your strategy. E.G. If my lings have 1 additional armor, I could produce a few more early to help me defend and give me survavability against early tanks.
Lets add new abilities to chess pieces, it's meta has become to stagnant right?
The huge difference is that this game is pliable. It's a community game and run by the community. It changes constantly with patch notes and programming.
if you really love the game, then it doesnt matter how many people it is played by.
I love this game, and I will continue playing it as long as I can, but this was just a post to try and help do something to keep players interested as long as possible before people start leaving the game which is inevitably going to happen. People have gotten jobs from this wonderful game, and when the community dies down they will just have a harder time.
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On March 21 2013 03:21 Chiyosuke wrote:
All of the special abilities that I suggested were able to be integrated into your strategy. E.G. If my lings have 1 additional armor, I could produce a few more early to help me defend and give me survavability against early tanks.
The huge difference is that this game is pliable. It's a community game and run by the community. It changes constantly with patch notes and programming.
This is why talents are redundant. You get +1 armor by getting an earlier gas and building an evo chamber. It's already within the game's constraints and the only thing holding you back is a lack of mechanics.
Maps make such a huge difference that implementing talents would also require a change in how ladder works. You would need time to see the map and make the proper talent adjustments before going into the game, otherwise you're risking players subjecting themselves to inappropriate talent choices.
The best way to handle this in Starcraft 2 is keeping everything isolated within the game as far as customization is concerned.
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EPT
