EPTOn February 28 2013 14:21 Acrofales wrote:
Can we get a 3rd instant majority lynch option for explicitly wanting a double lynch?
Can we get a 3rd instant majority lynch option for explicitly wanting a double lynch?
I second this.
This Town Ain't Big Enough Mafia - Page 64
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Corazon
United States3230 Posts
I second this. | ||
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Reads So to state the obvious, Adam is very unlikely mafia. It would make virtually no sense for Adam, a scumplayer known for his passivity, to jump in and risk himself in a duel to bus his scumbuddy. Knowing the allignments of both players on the block yesterday, we should be able to narrow down some of our suspicions based on how votes paned out. (Even if some people think Adam is a 3rd party, it's effectively the same thing from a mafia perspective.) People Who Voted Adam (Sylencia +Dienosaur) They've played almost identically so far: they've done a whole lot of nothing in the early game, then plopped an early vote on Adam at the beginning of the voting cycle, then proceeded to do much of nothing until now. They're both lurkers who haven't made any significant commitments and had their vote in awful places. I want both of them to duel tomorrow, and I'd push for a double-lynch unless I get convinced that one of them is town. The "Double-Lynch" Voters (iamperfection + Acro + Thrawn) iamperfection is active and behaving to his townie persona (as I previously mentioned). Acro is the most active player in the game so far and hasn't been afraid to take the town leadership position. Slightly offputting from his filter is his 3rd party read on Adam (which I think is nonsense), however that's certainly not a reason to lynch him at this stage. Something about Thrawn is off, and I think he's a likely 3rd party. While he was one of the earlier votes on Kei, when push came to shove, he voted for the double-lynch. While that isn't bad in itself, what's most concerning is how and why he did so. First of all, the timing at which he switched to a double-lynch is remarkably convenient. The votecount was 4-2 in favor of Adam, and zaperath + Snarfs JUST voted for Kei, swinging the momentum of the lynch. At this point, Thrawn immediately latches onto the idea of double-lynching very strongly. It reads a lot like he's seizing the opportunity to do collateral damage, when you consider some of the rationale for his switch. On February 28 2013 02:02 thrawn2112 wrote: if we kill adam too, nobody will dare to shoot early from now on his desire to duel seems to have some sort of win-con type motivation. it's not like he and keir were really going at each other at the time. keir was not pushing adam veyy hard. adam volunteered to duel keir in my place... way before enough people had commented on the original idea of thrawn vs keir if you look at the circumstances, the motivation for a townie to do what he did doesn't seem to be there. On February 28 2013 02:17 thrawn2112 wrote: why should lynch adam -we're in a closed 15 player setup. it's a little expected that there might be a third party. i've personally seen people lynch 3p reads and they flip 3p -you can't be too certain that keir is scum. if keir flips town, the thread will probably waste time on adam until he eventually gets lynched at some point later on -this is an excellent example of a time when you actually need to policy lynch just to keep games playable. imagine if this happens again? every day? you've been bitching about how shitty the lynch is, so here is you chance to put a stop to it He suddenly becomes very very convinced that Adam is a 3rd party in the first quote. This is just a feel for him from our history together, but I just can't see town-Thrawn having such high confidence in a 3rd party read. I haven't seen anything of the sort in the past games I've played with him. The second quote is also very notable for two reasons: 1) he starts setup-speculating and just sounds a lot less confident that Adam is 3rd party. 2) He's justifying lynching Adam because he "can't be too certain" that Kei is scum. Yet he had been pushing the idea aggressively . Combined with his inactive start, there's something just... off about Thrawn. I think Thrawn is a possible mafia that bussed Kei, but is more likely a 3rd party. People who only voted Kei (Snarfs + zarepath + Alderan) For Snarfs + Zarapeth, of these guys voted only voted Kei, and did so at a time that seemed to swing the momentum onto Kei's bandwagon. Both of their filters are pretty "meh," but I can't find anything overtly scummy there, and their voting actions (and timing) suggest a townie motivation. For Alderan, there's nothing really conclusive in his filter since he was pretty clear that he thought both people on the block were town. His attitude is consistent, and I sympathise with it having initially been in the same situation to some extent. Also, I got some town vibes from his huge fight with Acro about not wanting to double-lynch. I'd expect mafia to not be as adamant against the idea. Point is, none of them should be a priority for tomorrow. People who SWITCHED from Adam to Kei (Yamato + Oatsmaster + Corazon) Here's where it gets interesting. Yamato... I had initially labeled him as very town due to his early-game aggression, but his activity died off in recent days. In addition, he's more than capable of being an aggressive dick as mafia (from my experience in British Mini Mafia). He starts off the day all aboard the Adam train while defending Kei: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=398360¤tpage=35#685 He maintains that Kei is town throughout the day. With Adam, he reverses course later in the day. The thing is that the reasoning with which he switches off Adam is so paltry in comparison to why he thought Adam was scum (see link above). These are the standouts: Based on the complete uselessness of both parties involved in this lynch, Adam and Keirathi, I think the likelihood of them both being town is high. Mafia in this position would be more concerned with the possibility of being lynched here, and do something about it. Neither of these players seems to be trying particularly hard to live, so by default they're probably just town. Adam's play is mafia-favored, and his likelihood of doing this again is high, so if we're strictly talking about lynching people who are playing anti-town, he is the obvious favorite. ... Adam's play since calling for the duel is quite terrible. All he's done is excuse and defend his decision, he really hasn't added to town's efforts in any meaningful way. While I do think his defensiveness is a little weird, the overall tone of his posts and his mentality seems townish. He's not overly concerned with being lynched for this, so it's a decent sign he might not be mafia. So in Yamato's world, Adam is playing to mafia objectives, but he all of a sudden drops suspicion because Adam's posts now seem "townish." Compare this again to his initial "outline" of suspicion on Adam: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=398360¤tpage=35#685 Within an hour of dropping his suspicions on Adam, he's immediately onto Kei: On February 28 2013 05:00 yamato77 wrote: ##Vote Keirathi Someone with balls make sure this doesn't end in a double lynch. I have to go to work. Yamato's actions come across as very convenient, however I can see a town Yamato doing what he did. The town Yamato I've seen in his newbie games and Mafia LVIII is very spazzy and aggressive, and is capable of his sudden turn in attitudes about Adam. I'll be interested in what he has to say tomorrow. Oatsmaster seems townie due to his activity and his thought-process during the duel proceedings. He seems to care a lot about scumhunting... and well... just thinks a lot like a townie. Hard to put my finger on it, but it seems very genuine. That, and him being suspicious of marv in the early game against pretty much everyone else doesn't seem like a scum move to me. Corazon Pretty simple. Starts the day off on Adam: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=398360¤tpage=38#747 Then spends a lot of time going after Syl. What's notable, is that Corazon really never bothers to analyze Kei's filter. His attitude on Kei is one of neutrality and hesitation: I'm not convinced enough on Kei to see him die now. I was only ok with him dueling if it was because Thrawn picked him. I see a lot more scum motivation behind Adam's rashness. The fact that the votes already given out so far are all around the board mean that the chances of a scum being here is pretty high. I hate heroes anyways. Eventually when opinions of the town start to shift, Corazon arrives at the idea that both Adam and Kei are town... due to Sylencia's vote on Adam?!?!?!? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=398360¤tpage=48#956 He argues that Sylencia being non-committal makes both of them not scum, which makes zero sense. It's not scumhunting, it's a complete cop-out from doing any analysis Then shortly after, there's his vote post: On February 28 2013 05:16 cDgCorazon wrote: Oh I read Yamato's post as 2 people... Fuck it, I'm tired of sitting here and posturing for the next day. If Kei flips town I just know my agenda is going to be set back for a really long time...but I refuse to see a double lynch. ##unvote ##Vote: Kei Why would a townie care about "posturing" for tomorrow? A townie wants to hunt and kill scum. I don't think he's talking about "posturing" of other townies either, since he mentions an agenda. This also makes no sense - why would Kei flipping town set back his agenda of lynching Syl? In fact Kei flipping town would seemingly confirm his theory that Syl's indecision = both Adam/Kei are town. So Corazon's actions line up with mafia objectives, and his switch onto Kei is very suspect. He never gives a strong opinion on Kei, and his vote-post is nonsensical. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
I'll be awake for the next half-hour or so if anyone wants to poke me to explain anything above ^ | ||
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On February 28 2013 11:57 iamperfection wrote: ... He said he would be back in an hour and then he didn't I'd love to spend all my time on this game, but School > Mafia As I've said before though, I'm home free for several days starting tomorrow afternoon, provided I don't get shot. You know what this means well do you? It means he does not care about town. hapa can die. Just because I have a gap of inactivity doesn't mean I don't care. This is the same shit that I got mislynched for in Hero, and almost got lynched for in Chrono Trigger. He can be a leader and he isnt he could name the whole scum team as town by now he isnt I hope this is sarcastic... Anyway, you're completely wrong, but I see where you're coming from given our most recent game together Just take a look at my actions yesterday and think about whether they make sense from a mafia perspective or not. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On February 28 2013 15:45 thrawn2112 wrote: hapa, who do you want to be in a duel and how do you propose to do it? and who would you duel yourself? My full proposition for tomorrow is this: I'd like Dieno and Sylencia to duel, unless one of them starts showing some significant townieness. I'd also like to double-lynch 'em by default and leave it up to them to prove that they're town individually. If one of them does, I'd add Corazon to the list. As for HOW we should go about that, well you can only start by asking nicely. If that doesn't work, we can probably force one of them to duel the other by threatening to have Adam duel one of them (which is basically a vigi-shot given that there's no sane way that Adam's scum). As for who I'd duel myself, I wouldn't duel period. I think my voting actions speak for themselves yesterday. I get that I'm less active than usual, but it should be obvious that I'm playing to town objectives. Nor do I get the sense that there's any support for me dueling tomorrow (besides iamp anyway). If you're asking for a top scumread - it's hard to differentiate between Dieno/Sylencia since they've both played nearly identical games. Put a gun to my head, and I'd say Dieno on the basis that Sylencia has a history of being lurky as town in some of his newbie games, whereas Dieno's town performance in CT was pretty darn active. | ||
yamato77
11589 Posts
Lynching mafia Keir should give me a heap of info to run with. | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16627 Posts
Im not so sure that Syl is scum though :/ And hapa is null cause lately he seems like town hapa, not useless lurky scum hapa. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17729 Posts
On February 28 2013 17:54 Oatsmaster wrote: Yeah Dieno has been really careful with his play, not really ruffling anyones feathers, he seems WAY MORE serious than his CT game with the nice poster. Also basically fucked off in the last day. Im not so sure that Syl is scum though :/ And hapa is null cause lately he seems like town hapa, not useless lurky scum hapa. What has Sylencia done to make you think otherwise? | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16627 Posts
He doesnt do anything with his read on me, no questions no nothing. Most of his posting is saying how bad adam is but still a town read? Whats the point then? Like his precious time could be spent actually finding scum instead of throwing shit on adam. He tries very hard to justify his vote on adam when it was clearly a policy vote. So in essence, I dont know his reads, I dont know who he suspects and I dont know if he cares. His 'oats is scum' read on me is basically a summary of my filter, and it doesnt look like he really wants to find out who is scum. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17729 Posts
You state that me suggesting there's a 3P in Adam is bad play or scummy: what does offputting mean in that sentence? Yet 5 lines down you are doing it yourself for thrawn. Explain. | ||
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HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
And I will not be changing any rules partway through the game. | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
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iamperfection
United States9635 Posts
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Sylencia
Australia1057 Posts
Basically this - Looks like I was wrong about Keir, and Adam somehow nailed it :| While I'm willing to go up for a duel because of my lurker status, my lack of critical scumhunting, and whatnot - I'll let Deino cast the duel. He can show he has the same commitment that I do to being on the block. If I was to cast the vote, I'd much rather duel Corazon than Deino. Not only is it frustrating for me to have to deal with Corazon calling me scum time and time again based on my meta from previous games, he already mentioned it himself: On February 26 2013 00:13 cDgCorazon wrote: It's hard to follow because you guys just sit around and call each other scum/town based on each other's metas, which in all honesty is kind of pointless. Metas can change at any point, and players can use their meta from one side or another to conscientiously give others a town read based on their meta. Don't read too much into them (which I'm afraid you guys are doing right now). I'm not saying that all of it has been meta talk, but I've seen way too much meta talk thrown around. Yet he proceeds to push the case during the day many many times, even making a complete case on how I am scummy because of my past meta. Cora, why the hell are you putting all your effort into looking into the past when you've clearly mentioned the above, and I have as well somewhere along the line? Anyways to answer some of your questions (though On February 28 2013 00:14 cDgCorazon wrote: @Syl: Here is a list of reasons I think that you are scum that have nothing to do with your meta. Care to answer to a few of these? The fact that you are in Australia should not have a huge impact on your ability to contribute. I've been able to have constant back and forth with Mocsta (also from Australia) in every game I've played with him. The timezones should not be an issue here. Even if you have limited time to play, you could have at least shown that you are having an interest in this scum hunt and that you should not be forced to give a read (one that's basically copying me) when one asks. You should take the initiative to look pro-town. When it comes to posts: High Quality and High Quantity= Generally Town High Quality but Low Quantity= Generally Town Low Quality but High Quantity= Scum Low Quality and Low Quantity= Scum If you are truly having a lack of time to discuss every single point, you needed to be more practice. The bolded one is what you could be doing with your limited time and what would help town. The underlined one is what you are doing, which is not helping town. Sure, but I have no idea what Mocsta does during the day - seeing as he was completely capable of posting when he wanted he may have been on holidays, or worked part-time or something. My schedule: Sleep at 1, wake at 7, get to work at 9 - generally I check the topic and post at around this time. I check the topic again before lunch at 1230, and I get home at 7. I eat dinner, freshen up, do what I need to do and it's about 10. I am on from then until I sleep again, in which I check the topic every 10-15 minutes. The times in which I'm most active have been when there's only been a handful of people online - primarily Oatsmaster and other SEA players and at a stretch some of the euros. For people on the other side of the world, such as you, I end up only posting 1-3 times to you a day because of the delay in reply between you and I. Do you get it now? ("Important times of the day" is also very dependent on when it happens. The lynch happened around 5am today. Am I scum for sleeping? The duel on D1 began at 4pm I believe. Am I scum for being at work during that time? If it's at a time when I AM supposed to be here - say 11pm my time, I would say you had a point, but so far afaik that hasn't been the case) On your second point, that's completely valid. Though I seem to disagree that I haven't been scumhunting. The primary thing for Day 1 was based on the duel. I don't know if you've actually read my filter or not but the second half of that day was pretty much myself trying to show why I saw Adam's play as scummy. Sure I was wrong, but it's still something. In addition, you can obviously still work on others but why would you want to make them aware that they're suspicious when they can be nailed through their actions that can then be shown after the duel? I'm not saying I have any hidden reads here - I don't, but this is probably one of the flaw's I've seen people have been doing during the day (myself included, it really only occured to me today). If you're finding these scummy plays, you can bring them up as soon as they say it, but you could let them hang themselves further by letting them dig themselves into a hole by letting them think they got away with it. If it's appropriate to bring the point up for an argument against a player who's currently up for nomination, then obviously bring it up. If it's a vital statement that can change the outcome of the day, bring it up. But for minor things, such as the time I mentioned Oats trying to slam me for what I was doing then doing something similar - that has it's time during the night / preduel. That's what is one of the major differences between this game and a normal game, but everyone is treating this like a normal game and it's really giving scum a lot more opportunities to cover up past errors (especially with voting). If I die during the duel, at least take that away from it. On February 28 2013 15:31 Hapahauli wrote: People Who Voted Adam (Sylencia +Dienosaur) Idealistic, but you would think that the 4th scum (if any) would at least have the brains to stop this from happening if this was true. Even I would've seen from a mile away that leaving my vote on Adam would've been a dumb move if I was going to sleep with chances to hammer at any time (mainly saying this about the second half of the day, I would probably still vote at the time I did) leaving my vote exposed as scum. Deino who seems to have been in a similar situation following suit would mean that both of us being scum were very confident that town would vote for double lynch / Adam. Adam getting killed was still far off, and with the votes being 3-4 or something before the real movement happened, it's not like scum could convincingly say that it was in the bag at all. So if I was scum, it would've been very very easy for me to simply withdraw my vote under the "Oh keir has done nothing for this half of the day, I'll re-evaluate." context. But I didn't. I stood my ground, and gave more reasoning. tl;dr You are at least half wrong about this, so assuming there are 4 scum, you're still missing one. | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16627 Posts
So is Cora your only scum read? | ||
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Sylencia
Australia1057 Posts
While it's still considered scumhunting, I don't see it to be very productive at all seeing as how he has had his tunnel vision glasses on since stopping with yam and Oats. | ||
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Sylencia
Australia1057 Posts
On February 28 2013 03:49 Alderan wrote: Sylencia similar question for you. Do you agree a double lynch would be a bad idea? You never mention it in your filter, but you do seem to think that Adam's actions don't necessarily make him scum, just a bad town player. Since the nomination do you think Adam is more dangerous to town than Keir? If so, why? Also I missed this during the skim through this morning but I'm trying to find a final list of votes, and I don't even know if it's relevant now but I indirectly mentioned it in one of my posts I believe. It was a stupid idea simply because there wasn't enough info from them and there is nothing based on previous actions that you can link them to. For example, now there IS a reason to double lynch myself and Deino, since it can be linked to the death of Keir, as well as similar play during day 1. This is where double lynch makes more sense (though I don't advocate it  )At the time you posted, I still thought so yes because Adam clearly stated he wouldn't guarantee he back down from a duel based on his reads in a future day, and Keir still had a chance to better his play since I didn't see too many scummy posts from him, only scummy traits were really there (and turns out that was correct). On that note, is there a final vote count hanging around somewhere? | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16627 Posts
On February 28 2013 05:44 gonzaw wrote: Night 1 ![[image loading]](http://www.google.com.uy/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=_VpKxypYqyM35M&tbnid=FYDykjMhnBRJJM:&ved=0CAgQjRwwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmfennwrites.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F01%2F30%2Foutsiders-3-the-man-with-no-name%2F&ei=jG8uUZK9D4Sy9gSEvoGADA&psig=AFQjCNHMpfHRw8HraoN5axHnmYsxGYYGQg&ust=1362084108300787) Keirathi the Mafia Goon has suffered defeat at the hands of Adam4167 + Show Spoiler + Mafia Goon As a Gang Member, you’ve come to Liquid ready to take part in one last big holdup. Do this job right and you’ll never have to work again. Unfortunately, before you can carry out the heist, you’ll need to get rid of anyone who may cause trouble.[REDACTED] As a reminder, you may not claim or refer to any of the flavor in this PM. You may claim/fake-claim your role name, any powers, and win condition. Votecount: + Show Spoiler + Duel 1 Vote Count Adam (2): Sylencia, Dienosore Keirathi(7): Oatmasters, Alderan, zarepath, cDgCorazon, yamato77, Hapahauli, Snarfs You have 24 hours to send your actions. now answer my question please :D | ||
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