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ahhh, man, i just thought I could clear blackmamba and myself via vigilante talk...
i just realized MAFIA HAVE A VIG TOO? ASSUMING it's in the game
i was looking to see if we had a double lynch, but then i guess i should be just trying to break the setup. it would require people to go out on a limb, and I don't want that yet, so i won't propose any ideas until we have consolidated better
current lynch: Mattchew - Reasoning: Claimed a role he can't possibly know he is...
100% logical - 50% he's trolling? doubtful. Positive chance of lynching mafia. If he was blue, I feel like he would have claimed by now. If not, well, he's not playing to the town, and he's showboating... nobody likes a showboat.
Maverick had a bad defense of Mattchew's claim. Now, this wasn't just defending Matt for him to build cred, it was defending a claim that any sane person who was a part of this town would be all over. If he's town, I don't want him in lylo. I urge the vig to take action tonight... maybe even an n-word. This guy could easily be a ninjuitsu. awful. Mafia claiming townie is one thing, but who wants to be in a position of the town we are a part of having to let people off.......?
weigh in on this theory: townies who are found visiting people as nosy neighbors claim tracker?
new FoS presented: Hapahauli. Milton catches him using the word scummy in a way you'd not want to use as town. Admitting something you've done is scummy is one thing, like I did, but the way Hapa used this makes me want to scream scum. His interaction with my 1st suspect Doyouhas is also pretty bad.
Doyouhas looks like he is bussing mattchew to me. He tried to get a quick wagon on a good player (me) who is also a policy lynch (i am... i lurk... play scummy as shit as town... etc) seems like something someone would do with a scum agenda.
Too long, didn't read: FOS Hap, Mav, DYH from thread
prefer to lynch Hap tomorrow ... vig on mav as BlackMamba said
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On September 04 2012 19:45 Ottoxlol wrote:
@Brood
Well I am EU, so when the game started at 0:30 I wrote a joke about lurkers, you shouldn't take the first couple of posts seriously come on man. Then I went to sleep. Also I had no idea on what stance to take on the whole sloosh vs Toad thingy so I am waiting on my scumbuddies to tell me what to say.
Meh, last game I was one of the main pushers for the d1 claim lynch and that didn't work out in the end.
Town-Mattchew would claim Nosy Neighbour if he what ??
Scum-Mattchew would claim Nosy Neighbour for what ?
I have seriously no clue, someone help me
he messed up and didnt realize nosy neighbors didnt get role pms as nosy neighbors
he slipped
scumslip
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the only scenario that makes sense for mattchew to claim nosy neighbor maybe is if he's a tracker but that's so dumb and reckless i can't imagine any tracker actually doing it
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Oh, some suspicious notes about Mattchew before I go to bed
1) never outright accuses BC of lying and doesn't OMGUS at all, takes passive role in defending himself. result of implicit guilt?
2) hints at the fact that he might be blue without outright claiming. if he has reason to suspect BC is right he knows he's getting lynched and needs to claim right away. scum, unlike someone who is actually blue, need a considerable amount of time to think about a second claim and plan with the mafia, his posts during the time i was arguing with BC read to me like he was stalling while trying to think of something
3) by saying that BC must have PM'd Palmar he's basically admitting that BC is right that he was lying but yet does not actually defend himself for it which seems tbh really strange to me from both a town and scum motivation. he says "devils advocate" when he comes up with a town motivated scenario for lying as though he's trying to just tell BC what he is doing so he will drop it
i guess it comes down to what mattchew claims now
if he flips blue then that doesn't tell me anything about anyone else here really except for people who didn't say anything about mattchew until after palmar confirmed the bit about the nosy neighbor so i guess we will just have to take it as a lesson for blues from now on to be a bit more careful
i really just don't understand #3 but i have seen scum kinda give up when they get caught in lies before or martyr themselves so maybe it isn't so strange after all
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as per 3 I don't see it from a townie perspective
if he's blue he shouldn't have claimed on day 1.
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On September 04 2012 19:29 Miltonkram wrote:Now that we're 99% sure Mattchew is scum I'd like everyone to turn their attention to Hapahauli. He chainsaw defends Mattchew after Mattchew recieves pressure from DarthPunk. All the while he avoids actually commenting whether he thinks Mattchew seems guilty or not. Then he spends time needling the conversation to a point where DarthPunk is willing to unvote Mattchew until BC comes in and blows that shit up (like a bauss). Other than that he's been plenty forthcoming with town reads, but he has yet to seriously pursue a scum read.
I'd like everyone to turn to Miltonkram for straight up lying about post history. This would be the biggest pile of crap I've seen in the thread if it wasn't for the Mattchew fake-claim. Scum coming in late and trying to make the best of a bad situation IMO.
Then he spends time needling the conversation to a point where DarthPunk is willing to unvote Mattchew until BC comes in and blows that shit up (like a bauss).
At that point in the game, DarthPunk hadn't voted for mattchew yet. DarthPunk never votes until Palmar confirms the lie.
Looks like we have scum #2 - using misinformation to make a key component of his "case" stronger.
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EBWOP: Part 2
Other than that he's been plenty forthcoming with town reads, but he has yet to seriously pursue a scum read.
Did I not seriously pursue DarthPunk for a little while? You're full of it, and it's pretty clear you're desperate to cast suspicion without reading the thread.
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Still catching up with the posts made while I was asleep.
For now:
##Vote: Mattchew
He´s a scummy liar and I´m 100% behind BC for calling him out.
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Thank you Mr Palmar for clearing the up the little situation.
DrH I hope you now understand why I could only say what I did, and was moderately infuriating to be so limited.
However, as everyone has seen and as drh was kind enough to point out in this post
On September 04 2012 20:46 BlackMamba24 wrote:
Oh, some suspicious notes about Mattchew before I go to bed
1) never outright accuses BC of lying and doesn't OMGUS at all, takes passive role in defending himself. result of implicit guilt?
2) hints at the fact that he might be blue without outright claiming. if he has reason to suspect BC is right he knows he's getting lynched and needs to claim right away. scum, unlike someone who is actually blue, need a considerable amount of time to think about a second claim and plan with the mafia, his posts during the time i was arguing with BC read to me like he was stalling while trying to think of something
3) by saying that BC must have PM'd Palmar he's basically admitting that BC is right that he was lying but yet does not actually defend himself for it which seems tbh really strange to me from both a town and scum motivation. he says "devils advocate" when he comes up with a town motivated scenario for lying as though he's trying to just tell BC what he is doing so he will drop it
i guess it comes down to what mattchew claims now
if he flips blue then that doesn't tell me anything about anyone else here really except for people who didn't say anything about mattchew until after palmar confirmed the bit about the nosy neighbor so i guess we will just have to take it as a lesson for blues from now on to be a bit more careful
i really just don't understand #3 but i have seen scum kinda give up when they get caught in lies before or martyr themselves so maybe it isn't so strange after all
Personally when I saw that he refused to admit that he was lying (had to wait for a mod to clear the air) it was a clear sign he wasn't town. If he was town he would have outted himself since he got caught instead of waiting. Lack of posting or solid defense / admission = scum imo
I will be jetting off to work and will have more time to actively sort through all the posts after that but there are a few people imo who have made some pretty shady posts.
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On September 04 2012 13:42 BroodKingEXE wrote:Toad: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 07:54 Toadesstern wrote:On September 04 2012 07:53 grush57 wrote:On September 04 2012 07:48 Toadesstern wrote:
The meaning was that I think he's a town blue and I therefore want to kill him as quickly as possible.
Or perhaps I don't like people pointing out useless stuff that has nothing to do with the game. I guess it has but what are we supposed to talk about the 2KP change or the vig addition he mentioned. Well, there is nothing else to talk about then until a scumslip or something. Talking about rules and such is how you figure out people stances and opinions which leads to finding out who is playing like town and who is playing like scum. you say that and yet we're talking about why I think sloOsh deservers a vote and wether or not you agree with me. Funny, isn't it? 1) He comes out of the box suspecting sloosh for posting a discussion starter. This is terrible reasoning, because firstly this is how 50% of all games start and second scum can use this as a cover, but he doesn't provide any reasoning from thinking he is for sure scum. Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 08:01 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 07:58 Toadesstern wrote:On September 04 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote:
Hapa, what is your idea of a town circle and how does it help us find / lynch / kill scum?
Toad - How is that useless stuff that has nothing to do with the game? The setup changed and maybe people haven't read the updates. I've asked you once and I'll do it again, what else do you want to talk about? I don't know what you want to talk about. I'm talking about your useless post being useless. Well BlackMamba's recent post just shows that people can miss information. My post has already proven itself useful, and your opening post which tries to discredit mine has not. Do you think I'm scum by my first post? Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 08:03 Toadesstern wrote:
because of that one post? Of course not. 2) Wait a minute, you voted for him and from the way you posted to Grush you thought he was scum. You did think he was scum from that first vote. Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 08:20 Toadesstern wrote:On September 04 2012 08:14 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 08:01 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 07:58 Toadesstern wrote:On September 04 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote:
Hapa, what is your idea of a town circle and how does it help us find / lynch / kill scum?
Toad - How is that useless stuff that has nothing to do with the game? The setup changed and maybe people haven't read the updates. I've asked you once and I'll do it again, what else do you want to talk about? I don't know what you want to talk about. I'm talking about your useless post being useless. Well BlackMamba's recent post just shows that people can miss information. My post has already proven itself useful, and your opening post which tries to discredit mine has not. Do you think I'm scum by my first post? On September 04 2012 08:03 Toadesstern wrote:
because of that one post? Of course not. Well your sentiment seems to be that you do indeed think I'm scum. Using my posts written prior to your retort (quoted above), can you show how you came to this conclusion? I think your post resembles someone trying to pretend to add something to the discussion while really only pointing out stuff that everyone else should know about. Like doing votecounts inbetween to "help" people. Yes it can actually help people but you can just help people by doing normal stuff. Obviously I'm not thinking you're mafia yet. I'm just pointing out that your post was bad without acknowledging that 50% of the posts done within the first 12hours or so are incredible bad to provoke reactions and that's what happened. Here we are, getting some decent information about how people think about each other and why they post something rather than talking about how the vig-change might influence the game, which is an incredible easy topic to cover for mafia. 3) This post is very passive to me, if he really was trying to obtain a response from sloosh, by now he should've had more than enough information to say town or mafia (or even come out and say null). What he has drawn from this is that he is "not thinking you're mafia yet", a stance that is pretty misleading. The last part makes something out of nothing tons of games start with some sort of non-alignment indicative conversation, does it really matter that sloosh's way was a slower way to reaching the same result? Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 09:36 Toadesstern wrote:On September 04 2012 09:32 Hapahauli wrote:On September 04 2012 09:26 Mattchew wrote:On September 04 2012 09:22 Hapahauli wrote:
Yeah I know what the role does, so what about it? I'll ask a question if I don't understand something. there is no information given to the role, it is a VT that (randomly) visits people. If a tracker or watcher see me on their check it could lead to a stupid mislynch Ah thanks for clearing it up. I'm just a bit wary of D1 claims in general after having seen SnB's "self-aware miller" claim in DeathNote Mini Mafia, justified or not. On September 04 2012 09:22 Toadesstern wrote:On September 04 2012 09:17 Mattchew wrote:On September 04 2012 09:16 Hapahauli wrote:On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote:
I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well. Hold up. Why would we want people with information roles to claim? ##vote hapahauli need an honest answer. What do you consider worse: a) People not thinking while posting / reading b) People defending other people 1 hour into the game when they have no reason to do such a thing and should be happy to see as much posts from the person in question defending himself rather than stopping the discussion defending him. Howabout c) People who pick fights with people who are trying to start conversation (slOosh) for the sake of picking fights? well sloOshs post has done nothing so far. My post was the reason we're having this discussion instead of talk about vigs or the 2KP change, which is, as already pointed out, an incredible easy topic for mafia to cover and blend in while people who are talking about reads, even if they're minor, have to stand their ground at least somewhat. Yes I totally see how that got to be malicious On September 04 2012 09:35 BroodKingEXE wrote:
@Toad Im still confused about the vote on slOosh. You didn't agree with him for starting a useless discussion and that's grounds for keeping your vote on him? There never was a vote on him to begin with lol 4) The bolded part seems really out of place for a townie. It seems like a scum trying to buy cred for his actions. HIs reply to me avoids the question completely and lies about his intent before. Toad is scum. ##Vote: Toadstern
1) As mentioned. I never did. I picked him because he did a terrible post but frankly 50% of all the d1 posts are terrible. Clearly I can't say that to begin with though or I'd have to check out the 101 of pressuring again.
2) No I never thought he was scum based on that post as I already pointed out. I made it look like it to see what's going to happen. Again, it's somewhat like pressure although it's technically not the same. If I tell him "I think your post is stupid but as 50% of the d1 posts are usually stupid it's probably a null" he wouldn't have answered me at all or at least not in a fashion that would have provided any information. Neither would the rest of the thread have started talking about it.
3) More than enough information? It was 3 hours into the game and you keep treating it like I was only trying to get information on sloOsh. Yeah he was the main involved guy but the other people reacting to it (like you still not understanding what actually happened) is equally interessting. Not to mention that I obviously don't talk about my complete reads to openly unless I'm certain the guy in question is a mafia.
What I pointed out is a fraction of a read. On his own not worth a damn but it's a piece worth discussing and therefore worth posting although the read isn't anywhere near "completed". If there is such a thing as a completed read.
4) The bolded part was a joke as he said the very same thing himself and I got myself a note in my sheet as well about it saying: clicky! That's kind of odd. He shouldn't say that if he's a townie. I don't need people to tell me their posts are useful. If your post is useful people are going to figure that out themselves. So it really looks like it he wants to tell everyone how helpful he is or he's honestly pissed. I guess it's a null right now, did the same in L when people finally lynched Sandro and rubbed it into their faces because I'm quite prideful myself. Could be both a prideful townie who's pissed that I'm calling his post bullshit or a mafia who wants to tell people how awesome he is to look better
So as I had it down as a null I figured setting the score back to normal by doing the exact same thing with swapped names might work :p
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New info makes Mattchew's "cool for a D1 vote" even cooler, IMO.
We gotta get some blood today and Mattchew's BS seems lynchworthy to me. ##vote: Mattchew.
PS. I bolded a bunch of null reads, but about 6 of my reads leaned one way or another. Not defending the fact I wrote a really, really long post 
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oh yeah missed that palmar thing.
##vote Matt
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On September 04 2012 22:22 Rewok wrote:New info makes Mattchew's "cool for a D1 vote" even cooler, IMO. We gotta get some blood today and Mattchew's BS seems lynchworthy to me. ##vote: Mattchew.PS. I bolded a bunch of null reads, but about 6 of my reads leaned one way or another. Not defending the fact I wrote a really, really long post
Can you specify which reads lean one way or the other? It's not entirely obvious (and open to much interpretation) when you bold "null read" next to every one of your reads.
Also, any updates to the list in light of the events of the last few pages?
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@Hap - The reads where I say, "I'm leaning towards X for this player."
When I say Town Read or Mafia Read, it's gonna be a firm read as far as I can tell. I'm not looking to change or update my reads every 1/2 day. My goal is to make reads that stick, which simply requires more info than we're got so far. (Zero votes and lots of bickering.)
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On September 04 2012 22:46 Rewok wrote:
@Hap - The reads where I say, "I'm leaning towards X for this player."
When I say Town Read or Mafia Read, it's gonna be a firm read as far as I can tell. I'm not looking to change or update my reads every 1/2 day. My goal is to make reads that stick, which simply requires more info than we're got so far. (Zero votes and lots of bickering.)
Why post a lot of them in the first place. Your read on everyone should start as a null read. If you have something to say about someone then fine but going through people who haven't posted yet or you have nothing to add on obscures what you actually have to say.
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Why so many people jump to vote Matt?
Whatever is his alignment he fucked up. Does this makes him scum?
Matt thought Noisys are aware of themselves. He has some kind of role. This is all we know.
If he's blue he could have done it to protect himself from scum.
If a scum would fakeclaim I think he would discuss it with his team first and do you all think every scum missed this thing? I highly doubt it. If anything Matt is a blue or assa.
This just provides an easy wagon to jump onto and removes d1 discussion as a whole, no town benefit from that.
Just because he did not play well it doesnt mean he's scum.
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On September 04 2012 22:55 Ottoxlol wrote:
Why so many people jump to vote Matt?
Whatever is his alignment he fucked up. Does this makes him scum?
Matt thought Noisys are aware of themselves. He has some kind of role. This is all we know.
If he's blue he could have done it to protect himself from scum.
If a scum would fakeclaim I think he would discuss it with his team first and do you all think every scum missed this thing? I highly doubt it. If anything Matt is a blue or assa.
This just provides an easy wagon to jump onto and removes d1 discussion as a whole, no town benefit from that.
Just because he did not play well it doesnt mean he's scum.
a blue doctor, jailkeep, Tracker, Watcher or Vigi however has no reason to be afraid. Maybe a Mad Hatter would be hard to explain but I'd doubt someone would want to fakeclaim as miller like that as a Mad Hatter.
Picture the situation you're in as a blue: We have trackers and Watchers. What happens is that at some time someone could say "Hey guys, Matt visited X at night Y".
If he's a doctor, tracker or a watcher that's no problem at all because the target in question didn't die. We want to know who visited people who ended up being dead. If he's a doc there's actually a chance he ended up saving someone and that someone could even confirm that. If he is a tracker or a Watcher he is able to claim the results, something Mafia is not able to do.
So a Doc, Tracker or a Watcher are all perfectly fine and there's no reason to fakeclaim like this.
A Jailer can somewhat confirm himself as well as the target he visited ended up being roleblocked every single night. It's only "somewhat" because a mafia RB is possible as well but after all if he's a Jailer he's again only going to visit people who ended up surviving the night.
A vig is somewhat tricky as it's an extremly easy fakeclaim for mafia to do but as long as you claim prior to the deadline everyone's going to be fine with that.
A Mad Hatter is, like a vigi somewhat tricky but as everything else you visited people. That in itself is not a reason to be suspicious of someone and the Mad Hatter is most likely going to visit people who ended up surviving as well unless either the Hatter decides to go after townish looking people for whatever reason or mafia decides to go after bad looking townies for whatever reason.
tl;dr: There's not a single scenario in which a fakeclaim as a blue makes sense. At least I can't think of one because you won't end up being tracked to a kill in pretty much all the cases. On top of that noone is going to be stupid enough to out someone who visited a guy who's still alive because that's basicly outing medics / tracker / watcher in most of the cases.
However there are a bunch of good reasons to fakeclaim this as mafia if you forgot that millers / NN are usually not self-aware in 90% of the games and just did it because he recently played a game with self-aware millers. I think Bang-Bang mafia was one of those for example.
So there's a shitton of explanations from a mafia point of view.
The only possible explanation from a town point of view would probably be "reversed psychology" although you're making yourself a target doing so, which isn't what a blue wants to do either unless he's a Hatter d2 or later.
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On September 04 2012 22:55 Ottoxlol wrote:
Why so many people jump to vote Matt?
Whatever is his alignment he fucked up. Does this makes him scum?
Matt thought Noisys are aware of themselves. He has some kind of role. This is all we know.
If he's blue he could have done it to protect himself from scum.
If a scum would fakeclaim I think he would discuss it with his team first and do you all think every scum missed this thing? I highly doubt it. If anything Matt is a blue or assa.
This just provides an easy wagon to jump onto and removes d1 discussion as a whole, no town benefit from that.
Just because he did not play well it doesnt mean he's scum. What exactly would Matt be protecting himself from? Scum has no trackers or watchers. They have 0 way to know if anyone has visited anyone, so there's no reason for Matt to give himself an innocent explanation for visiting people if he's blue. Whereas it looks like you could read the nosy neighbor description as self-aware or not, you can't read the roles and think that you needed to claim nosy neighbor to confuse scum.
Moreover, although there's been a lot of Mattchew discussion even after palmar's answer, there's also been a lot of discussion of other players and how they interacted with his claim. In no way has all D1 discussion been removed.
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On September 04 2012 23:29 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 22:55 Ottoxlol wrote:
Why so many people jump to vote Matt?
Whatever is his alignment he fucked up. Does this makes him scum?
Matt thought Noisys are aware of themselves. He has some kind of role. This is all we know.
If he's blue he could have done it to protect himself from scum.
If a scum would fakeclaim I think he would discuss it with his team first and do you all think every scum missed this thing? I highly doubt it. If anything Matt is a blue or assa.
This just provides an easy wagon to jump onto and removes d1 discussion as a whole, no town benefit from that.
Just because he did not play well it doesnt mean he's scum. What exactly would Matt be protecting himself from? Scum has no trackers or watchers. They have 0 way to know if anyone has visited anyone, so there's no reason for Matt to give himself an innocent explanation for visiting people if he's blue. Whereas it looks like you could read the nosy neighbor description as self-aware or not, you can't read the roles and think that you needed to claim nosy neighbor to confuse scum. Moreover, although there's been a lot of Mattchew discussion even after palmar's answer, there's also been a lot of discussion of other players and how they interacted with his claim. In no way has all D1 discussion been removed.
My bad, I missed that scum has no way of tracking. FML
Although he thought that millers are selfaware. He claimed and asked for others to claim, he can be a tracker, track everyone who claims.
+ Show Spoiler +On September 04 2012 12:35 Hapahauli wrote:
@ BC
Regarding the "Nosy Neighbor" claim, I just can't see mafia doing that. If the role isn't self-aware as you suggest, aren't you just shooting yourself in the foot from a mafia perspective? Because if no one else claims, you get auto-lynched. On September 04 2012 13:08 Hapahauli wrote:
##Vote Mattchew
I generally agree with everything that sloOsh said above. As far as I'm concerned, my vote will stay on him unless another nosy neighbor comes along and role-claims.
What? So Hapahauli thinks its not scum play, then sloOsh suggest that one of BC or Matt is scum (based on that BC is forcing 1-1 with Matt and he's lying so he is the scum) then immediately switches vote to Matt when votes started piling up on him.
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EPT
