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On August 07 2012 06:53 VisceraEyes wrote:@Bugs Looking at talis' activity, I'm less inclined to vote him. I mean - I get the case on me and I can't refute it...it's based almost entirely around the quality of my case against him, which I'll admit is fairly bad. That being said, I've masoned talis and we'll see where my read on him goes from here. Errandor is looking like the best target today - we've now flipped a town mason, so theoretically speaking lynching into the masons is a good plan if we're subscribing to the idea that scum must have masons. That aside, I had a scum read leaving N1 and that hasn't changed. I feel like his defense against my points fails to address the main crux of my argument which is that rather than argue his points logically, he's more interested in turning town AGAINST you appealing to their emotions. It just sucks for him that most everyone KNOWS you're a bastard regardless of alignment.  And in response to your first question...no guy. 5 out of what 20? players isn't enough. I'm thoroughly DISatisfied with town's activity right now. Hopefully I'll be able to add something more to the conversation soon.
Hey. Would you mind answering my questions ? I really don't want to repeat myself again , since you are saying absolutely nothing new at all.
I feel like his defense against my points fails to address the main crux of my argument which is that rather than argue his points logically, he's more interested in turning town AGAINST you appealing to their emotions. It just sucks for him that most everyone KNOWS you're a bastard regardless of alignment.
yeah especially this part. So, I gave you 4-5 posts of mine where I use logic to display my case against wbg, and ask you to prove that I am you... know.. not doing that , instead doing what you tell wbg I am doing. It is rather silly to fight air like this, when people don't even try to prove their cases and instead get away with random shitty scummy comments like that.
Would you please go back to the last post where I adressed you, go through it and answer it? After all you want the best lynch and not something retarded thats convenient if you are town, right?
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On August 07 2012 02:35 talismania wrote:SynystyrSo you're scum too!? The excitement/activity test strikes again :-) Seriously though I can't be certain I'm just OMGUSing but the case you just made against me is bad for almost the same reasons VE's was bad. + Show Spoiler +On August 07 2012 01:07 Synystyr wrote:Talismania is scum. Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 10:27 talismania wrote:
Medics protect sloosh tonight. If I were mafia I would kill him. He's always Captain America with the town, gathering votes together, keeping things on track. He's active and has generally solid analysis. Plus he's on me, so him dying makes it easy to push my lynch, and then boom two active townies are down the drain. So protect him.
He pushes this action to confuse town. If Sloosh dies in the night, it gives Talis tons of town cred because he said that medics should protect Sloosh. A little reverse psychology action too by claiming he would kill Sloosh if he were mafia. A hit on Sloosh appears to be be only negative for him and thus making him look innocent by association. Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 02:47 talismania wrote:
Forget WBG. If he wants to play, he'll play and we can go from there. If he wants to die, he'll vote for himself again and get modkilled.
DTs! Please strongly consider checking into one of VE/Hassy. Or if you don't agree with me, at least check one of the masons He reflects heat off of his scum buddy and himself with this line. Many times throughout the thread, Talis gives WBG a onceover with a "probably town" read and then accuses someone new. Talis is scum with WBG and is trying to protect him. He also wants DTs to check other players other than himself/WBG to avoid being caught. Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 17:16 talismania wrote:
They roleblocked me as insurance in case I was medic. If I were medic, I would definitely have guarded sloosh. Mafia doesn't know how many medics there are. They may have thought I was medic and was trying to tell another one to guard with me because I was wary of a doublestack.
Yes I still think it was a doublestack and I think grush was vig'd. We'll see when other people post if it gets claimed or not.
On the last point I'm talking from the perspective of the mafia team trying to call me mafia so I'm talking as if I'm mafia. It's convoluted sounding but really pretty simple: mafia can RB a member of their own team, say a goon or mason or whatever. Then that person can claim RB'd, for some weak towncred. Mafia in RBing me knew I would be notified, but weren't worried about it making me look townie because they knew they would be able to argue that there was just an intra-mafia RB on me because I would want towncred. They pair that argument with all my stuff about protecting sloosh as further evidence that I want towncred. etc etc. He defends himself before anyone has even pointed a finger at him. This post feels like mafia bait to me, but is instead used so he can point fingers at the person who will make the argument and deflect heat off of him. With the death of Sloosh, it gives him an extremely concrete defense as a townie. Mafia team-roleblock him to make him look like a medic, then doublestack Sloosh in case of a medic. Talis' reasoning to medic sloosh was good, but other players like Toad, Erandorr and SnB come off as town to me and good candidates to be protected over sloosh in the night. There could have been two medics on Sloosh last night, but obviously that was not the case as Sloosh is dead. With that, Talis has everything to gain defensively and gives him a really powerful position to manipulate town as Mafia. His aggressive finger pointing without concrete evidence is his way of appearing town. I'm not buying it. ##Vote Talismana 1) The NK and my alignment is nothing but WIFOM. I mean, help me out other people in this game, but on the outside I wouldn't look at sloosh dying and go "yep that must have been talismania he was doing it for towncred". It could have been, but it just as easily could not have been. It's literally pure WIFOM. So why is this a central plank in your case? By the way - raise your hand out there if you saw the night kill and gave me a ton of town cred. Anyone? 2) Are you really making the argument that I'm scum because WBG is scum, and you're not voting for WBG because you think I'm more likely to be scum yet some of that is predicated on WBG being scum and and and That's why connection cases don't work until you have a flip. For the record, I don't really know what to make of WBG. At the moment, I'm nursing the idea (which you conveniently missed me posting) that actually be scum just trying to get away with as much as possible as a test. Then he can be all superior and yell at us in the endgame. Your DT point also shows you didn't seriously make this case. It's like VE all over again. Yes I said (for good reason) that I would like DTs to check VE and hassy, two of my strongest scumreads at the time. Then I realized after sloosh posted that DTs were just rolecops, not alignment cops so I rescinded everything I said about DTs. But you ignore that completely. And come to think of it my ignorance of how DTs work (as well as toad) is kind of an unintentionally strong town tell. Scum would all know exactly how DTs work because their GF gets to pick what role he appears to DTs, so they would have discussed that somewhat (or at least read the role description) amongst themselves. 3) This is seriously the exact same stuff VE did. I'm "defending myself before anyone has pointed a finger at me" with regards to being roleblocked and the night actions? Well I guess if you took that post in isolation and assumed it was the first post I made on the subject, then yes. But guess what? That wasn't my first post. That was a clarification post. The first post, which you must have seen is here:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=43#850 And it's pretty clearly not me "defending myself before someone accuses me". No it's explaining why I think xsebt is likely to be town, because he seemed genuinely unaware of the correct scum argument. I was aware of the scum argument from daybreak, but there was no need to post it until then, when I think it's a very critical point to make as it directly speaks to this guy's alignment. You cherry-picked this case. What do you make of my case on VE? Does it look like scum wrote it or town wrote it? How and why? If you're going to call me scum, you're going to have to do it based on my whole filter.
Weekends are simply very busy for me so I don't have time to post much during them. You'll see my activity increase over the week. Rest assured that I am green. I found you to be the person with the most to gain from Sloosh's death. I stand by my vote. This is the first case i've tried to build against someone, so there may be a few holes, but I wouldn't do it without good reasoning.
Your claims on VE seem to be attacking his meta. I'm inclined to believe that you have some good points against him, but I simply don't know how VE has played in other games. I believe that at least one of the masons revealed is scum, and I lean towards VE more than anyone else. I'm interested to see what will happen with the two of you now that VE has masoned you.
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Also you seem to think I am scum for like 48 hours now. Why have you not voted me yet honey bunny?
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synystyr, my case on VE mentions his meta at the very end. The bulk of it is dissecting his case on me and showing why it was lazy and unresearched and therefore scummy. If you're interested in his meta though, have a quick skim through his bureaucracy filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349678&user=117978 I didn't follow the game but his filter looks like it normally should look when he's town.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 07 2012 07:25 CountDropula wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 02:08 talismania wrote:CountDropula I'm going to read and respond to your case, will you read mine? + Show Spoiler +On August 07 2012 00:56 CountDropula wrote:Zephirdd, it's time. I'm calling you out. This post is not me bashing you as a player. I'm picking up on general trends in your play and and using our interaction as an extended example. It's written in the second person because I'm confident you will crack under the pressure. You know this too, don't you?  Zeph. You don't think I read your previous games before our confrontation on d1? You were all about facts and concrete arguments in normal mini mafia 2. So when I tried acting level-headed and nooby (the profile of someone I think your town-self would be comfortable with) to gauge if you were the same town Zeph from that game, you acted in the exact opposite way town Zeph would have. Everything you have against me is against me personally. Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 08:59 Zephirdd wrote:On August 04 2012 08:19 CountDropula wrote:On August 03 2012 10:41 Zephirdd wrote:On August 03 2012 10:36 JingleHell wrote:On August 03 2012 10:34 prplhz wrote:
And we're off.
This is a 23 player game and I will not be able to handle it if there is a 130 page spamfest between a couple of people before night1. Seriously, condense your god damn posting. That said, there's also a couple of new/newer people on the list. You guys remember to post your thoughts and stuff on the game. No one here bites. Do you bite if we ask nicely? Zephirdd, don't you think there's danger of an early bandwagon voting with no cause like that? It's hard to defend yourself against a vote for no reason. FoS Zephirdd What. If you really think an early bandwagon would come from a vote like that, then you are silly. He doesn't even have to defend himself against non-existant accusations. ##unvote
##vote JingleHell Zephirdd's change from one unfounded vote to another tells me that 1. He doesn't care who is lynched 2. He doesn't feel comfortable dealing with pressure, so he fires back on jinglehell counterproductively. On August 03 2012 20:02 Zephirdd wrote:
Masoned players should claim IMO.
masons themselves shouldn't unless that would save his life.
toad, why improvise? Are you feeling some kind of pressure that stops you from making a decent post? On August 03 2012 20:27 Zephirdd wrote:
What you said makes sense. Mason'd people shouldnt claim :s
wbg mason does sound scary too
Another example of an unsubstantiated position-taking. After a legit response from toad, another switch. He sounds way too meek in the latter quote. Any objections/further evidence backed by specific evidence? Cause I'm leaning toward voting zephirdd. I just noticed this gem. Finally that paid off. Let me explain it to you. It was 5min into the game. I didn't even bother casting those votes on the voting thread. Why? Because they didn't matter, and I'd change them later anyway. It's not that I don't care, it's just that by creating a stupid vote, you take reactions from people. People like you, who is trying to take something as silly as that as an excuse to vote me, when in fact there is nothing there that makes me scum. I'm not afraid of having opinions change, as no town should be. My opinions did change quickly - and that's pretty damn common for a town player. You are creating bullshit reasoning to jump into the wagon easily. Nice first post scum. ##unvote (talismania)
##vote CountDropula Little did you know, I was the one baiting YOU. Your first posts looked suspicious, but I wasn't sure yet, so I tried to elicit some kind of response. You then validated my suspicion. You blinked first and outed your "plan" to the thread. You weren't being patient. Your goal was not to build a case. Your goal was to make an excuse for the sake of your appearance. This whole game, all your posts have done is feed the chaos. You don't focus. Examples. Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 08:59 Zephirdd wrote:
Hm, thats a lot of shit to skim through since my last post. Holy shit. erandorr/wbg logs are just a crapload of fuckity fuck. ghost_404(I see wat you did ther rastaban) was replaced by the one guy that I found to be scum last game. then there is both talismania and prplhz cases, but nobody cared enough about CountDropula I guess.
talismania's filter - summarized nicely by BKEXE - is terrible. He was helpful during the "discussion that everyone can take any instance and still be town" phase, but not after.
I am not sure about prplhz... I guess he is a decent lynch tho, he did go afk out of nowhere, and last time I saw him doing that he was scum. He's not the kind of guy who just "goes" away.
Well, consolidating votes won't hurt, right? I still want to go back to CD on the future. You are saying nothing. Ok now this is interesting. Calling town reads a scummy move, yet posting town reads. Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 05:43 Zephirdd wrote:So I decided to actually read stuff properly now. Talismania first post containing "Glasse" is: On August 03 2012 23:51 talismania wrote:
Erandorr what do you think of Glasse? (That was after hopeless1der voted him) His second post is exactly the same. The next instance is asking toad his instance on 4 people including Glasse On August 04 2012 04:37 talismania wrote:
yep zeph is scummy for exactly why sloosh says. erandorr I thought was for a bit but I don't understand masoning wbg from a scum pov. jinglehell is town, lazer is town, strongandbig is town. toad I thought was scum at first because of the timing of his patented color text post but he's just been being generally rather toady, which is to say he makes really strange (from my perspective) conclusions about what's good in the setup and what's not with strange (again from my perspective) reasoning behind it. Glasse I thought was hilariously obviously scummy. Like so blatant I honestly don't know what to think. Guess I should go dig up another game of his. Then he mirrors a player that has shown a case, throw a bunch of unnecessary town reads(nobody asked that, why do it) and after some fluff he says Glasse was "hilariously obviously scummy" without giving true reasoning(ie. giving a post and explaining why that was a scum post). Then he is rolefishing "for his own amusement". Hmm maybe people weren't wrong about questioning his plans on the beginning. Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 04:45 Zephirdd wrote:
"not contributing"? What do you want me to do, pull bullshit out of my ass the way you are doing?
wbg outing masons is a town move because he believes there is scum in the masons; He is outing them in order to pressure them.
VE is town because his posting lines up with cautious blue that wants to protect his supposedly powerful mason role.
Erandorr is dumb, but I'd say he wouldn't be that dumb as scum.
Talismania's posts made sense for me when he posted them, and I still see them as possible town opinions.
prplhz has been baiting scum with certain actions, while making sense with others. He hasn't caused chaos and is doing a good job in keeping the pace of the thread.
Everything else is a null tell.
I hate defending other people. That's their job. I only defend someone when I feel I have someone better to lynch. I don't.
Deal with it. Your play is getting worse. This last post is swiss cheese. Full of holes. Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 23:37 Zephirdd wrote:'sup folks. Busy sunday yesterday. Didn't read much, so I didn't post. I'm still re-reading some stuff, but I'll post some of my thoughts right now. The obvious one, CountDropula: 1. Uses terrible arguments to jump into my bandwagon: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=22#436He is using my random votings from 3-5minutes into the day as reasoning to vote me. He is using my change of instances based on someone's else opinion as reasoning to vote me. Neither of these are scum traits, nor do they push scum agendas.It's entirely reasonable that a town player would change opinions within two posts, given that someone gives the proper arguments. Random voting someone for the sake of random voting, 5 minutes into the day, is pretty much a bait for scum. A real town would look at that and realize it's not a reason to push someone; It means NOTHING action-wise. Yet, he uses it to make my wagon gain strength. Granted, he never voted me; which is even worse: if you have a suspicion on someone, why would you not vote him? 2. Appeal to emotion: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=23#459(From Ace's thread on how-to-play-scum: a good scum trait is provoking emotion out of town) I don't know where did he pull that I had a burst of emotion. Besides, why bring it up at all? Again, it's one of these traits that don't determine someone's alignment - in fact, I'd argue it's much more likely that a town player show a burst of emotion than a scum player. Then he pulls some bullshit "You never answered XXX" when I answered everything. And I even said more a few posts later. He never counter-argued. Then he calls for some "concrete defense" when he nevers says what about my defense is not concrete. Simply put, he is throwing loaded(and VERY loaded) sentences to try and break me down. How the f* does someone give a "concrete defense" on this game? Fucking no one can do that without being an Innocent Child or confirmed-town-dayvig. There is also these posts: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=40#800http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=41#802These posts have no purpose except bringing emotion into the table and - hopefully for him - numbing people's judgement. This is pretty much a scum move. 3. Hypocrisy, blending in: On August 05 2012 03:16 CountDropula wrote:
I really think the most important issue for us right now is getting people active. Were giving mafia too much space to hide.
Nevertheless, I'm voting wbg right now though that can change.
For sure watching zeph though, but I need a better case. This makes him look good right, he is calling for people to post... He has two freakingly terrible posts that only talk about one subject and is calling for people to be activeThat's trying to blend in without putting effort into the game. He is a lurker himself and is calling lurkers out. The more he post, the scummier he looks to me. Well, his first post is red as fuck already, but he is just being worse over time. So yeah, I'll keep reading stuff but my vote is on him already. ##Vote CountDropulaPlease don't ignore this guy. This is such a complete contradiction of your town play that it's absolutely ridiculous. Here is a post from normal mini mafia II. Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 13:12 Zephirdd wrote:On July 07 2012 13:04 Sinensis wrote:On July 07 2012 12:58 Zephirdd wrote:On July 07 2012 12:42 Sinensis wrote:
Okay, I'm caught up:
sloosh, what are you doing? You vote wiggles with no explanation, people call you out for it, you change your vote to me with no explanation at first, people call you out for it, then your explanation is that I was your first suspicion (even though you randomly voted wiggles first?) because my posting is mechanical? My posting is mechanical and that's why I'm scummy, maybe you could elaborate on that. Even though you seem to have changed your mind again to prplhz before I responded to you. Are you just jumping on the easiest target every time? What's the deal?
Prplhz shouldn't be lynched today. No way in hell. He's gotten too much negative attention from too many people, it seems likely to me mafia is pushing for the easy lynch against an aggressive player. And why wouldn't they? prplhz isn't playing as good or as friendly as he could be. This is the last time I defend him against the rest of the angry mob unless he stops with the "LOL SCUM LOL."
I am going to go with gut for my day one vote. Zephirdd's posting is the scummiest right now in my opinion. He spends a lot of his time telling other, presumably town players, how to play. Something mafia can't seem to resist doing in most of the games I play. He is stating mostly FACTS (people talking like they know something for certain are suspicious because only mafia have FACTS) and very little speculation.
As for everyone who is suspicious of me for lurking, you're right, it's suspicious, my bad. I work during the day (USEAST) and can't post till night usually. Expect my posts then, like I'm doing now. If anyone has any questions for me now is a good time I will be around.
##vote: Zephirdd Alright, there are a couple of wrong things here. 1. Calls sloosh out, yet considers me the scummiest target 2. Says prplhz has gotten too much negative attention. Can you tell me it is possible to give him a positive trait to his play? No you can't. Because there is NO positive trait to his play so far. He's gotten a lot of negative attention because that's what his play warrants - and you agree with this on your very last sentence. In fact, his lynch has actually gotten an awfully lot of resistance, more than I would like. 3. Reasoning for me being scum is bullshit and does not warrant a vote. I posted an awful lot for day 1 this game, so if you want to point out specific points in my play, do it and I'll counter anything you have. I've stated things with certainty, because that's what I believe to be true. Stating things as FACTS means being certain of yourself. Maybe they are wrong later, who cares. What's important is that I'm decisive in what I say, and I should be held accountable to that later. Also, I love how it took you 39mins to arrive at the conclusion that I am scum, when you are behind 10 pages. Will want to hear more from you. 1. Well, at least you can read. 2. I stand by what I said. 3. "Your reason is bullshit because it's bullshit." Good job. As I said, I posted an awfully lot. Point me what is scummy specifically, and I'll point out why it is not scummy. Additionally, I added reasoning for stating things with certainty. That alone should show why it's a bad argument to vote me for that. Also, I just realized I kinda read your third paragraph wrongly. I thought you were complaining that I was posting with certainty, but you're complaining that I am mostly stating "facts" instead of "speculation". Guess what, speculating stuff is terrible =_= Oh I think you are mafia oh maybe you are town! No. I look at what people post, and define scum or town according to what they do. Then, I state a FACT and use it to prove that someone is SCUM. In fact, my spreadsheet right now only has facts, and these facts help me determine an alignment. Playing under speculations is a bad way to play imo. On July 07 2012 13:08 Sinensis wrote:
Yeah, and I don't think he'd post like that as mafia. I don't think anyone would. I don't know how else you want me to explain it to you but I believe what I believe and if you take a look at my history in TL games, it's usually pretty hard to change my mind once I've made it up. Won't even bother rebutting then :| No compulsion to go crazy in response to suspicion because you are town in this game. In Mad Men, you say that nothing is concrete because you don't want it to be. You thrive on chaos. And another one from normal mini. Note the importance he places on facts. Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 13:50 Zephirdd wrote:I knew you'd go quote a bunch of stuff unrelated to what we were talking about and ennumerate them as bolded FACTS WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT WHAT WAHT AWHTAW THAW HT ATA THSDDS What the fuck. How. What. I need a break. Look. Can you define a fact in simple terms? I can: it's something that can't be denied. I posted facts. I literally pointed the obvious. Things that cannot be denied. These things made me infer that someone is scum - scumhuntingI have not seen you pointing out facts about me. I have not seen you pointing out things that can't be denied, specifically, the way I'm doing to an actual candidate. Do you think your vote on me has any chance of gaining any traction to form into a lynch? If you think so, I think you are wrong because your case is substantially weak when compared to what I point out about the actual candidate. If you don't think so, then why are you even bothering with me? I need a break. I'll grab some beer. Watch EVO. and go to sleep. Don't wait my answers until tomorrow at ~00KST(which should be noon for me). Day and night. All you are posting in this game is speculative, your case against me is not complete and irrefutable - actually it's the opposite since its based on so little. Town Zeph would never have done this. This is expected from a lazy scum case. Same thing with that "minicase" on talismania. It's well below the standard of your previous town game. You voted me at 8.59 August 4. I had one post at the time. one. Ever since then you've been pushing me as scum. How can you draw a conclusion like that from nothing? You know something we don't, and you were trying to create a distraction from more relevant issues. If you respond with a crazy belligerent post you just lynched yourself. Honestly you are dead with any response you make, because you are so irredeemably bad at playing scum that you will make a mistake and I will pick you apart with it. Now who's the noob scum? Guys, don't bury this post. Please give it serious thought, cause I've got a really strong read on this guy. If I'm wrong about this, I deserve to be lynched. Get this guy into the spotlight and he will crack. Please. Lets lynch Zephirdd and start killing mafia. Ok so this stuff doesn't quite add up. If I follow, what you're saying is that in reading Zephirdd's posts, you thought he might be scum early on. You then went to research previous games of his. After researching it, you noticed that zephirdd was "comfortable" with people that acted "level-headed and nooby". So first question, 1) Can you give us an example from that game of someone acting "level-headed and nooby" and then zephirdd reacting by being "comfortable" with them? You then decided to lay a trap for him. You yourself would act level-headed and nooby by making a case against him, to see how he would respond. He then snaps back at you, and you call this scummy because he didn't wait to build a case on you with other information. Ok I follow that even though it's kind of a stretch. But this is where things go off for me You've laid a trap based on eliciting a particular meta-response He falls for it You... vote for wbg, ninja switch to me, ninja switch to prp, meekly say "oh my votes were kind of rash and jumping the gun. It's a mistake but is it really suspicious?" (paraphrase). Well ok let me think this through. Perhaps it still holds consistency. After all you are accusing zeph for being scummy by springing a trap too early. You had yours, but you didn't want to spring it yet because you wanted more time to build a case. I can sort of buy that. You then accuse him of "feeding the chaos". Personally I don't really see this at all. Has anyone else felt that zephirdd has made this game chaotic? I haven't. The point about calling town reads scummy and posting town reads is a stretch. He's talking about me being scummy because I posted several town reads without explanation. That's different from saying that it's outright scummy to post a town read at all. I think this is confirmation bias looking for more evidence. Next, you can't just say "this post is swiss cheese. Full of holes" and not point out what the holes are. I mean you should give his case an honest response, not just dismiss it out of hand. The last part you should also spell out more. Like you're stating a meta-difference from NMM II to now but you're sort of stating it and going "here, see?" but I'm too obtuse to figure out what exactly is different. 1) Can you give us an example from that game of someone acting "level-headed and nooby" and then zephirdd reacting by being "comfortable" with them? Yes. I define "level-headed and nooby" as taking an honest and simple look at information and raising a question. Here is a post with this tone from NMMII. It's directed at Zeph. Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 11:30 Bluelightz wrote:On July 06 2012 11:27 Zephirdd wrote:
My opinion is that going "besides everyone's usual fill of Policy Lynch is bad" is cutting on the discussion and reducing the potential subjects for dicussing, thus reducing the potential to scumhunting. Who wants to avoid scumhunters? scum.
Bluelightz, you're scum? It's just from my expierience that when someone start's a discussion about policy lynches everyone always think it's bad so therefore I just cut to the chase and get started with scum hunting. This is how he responds. Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 11:32 Zephirdd wrote:
you're not cutting to the chase, having that part of the discussion is great. Even if people agree, the way they do it is what matters.
However, if they don't even need to do it, we wouldn't find their "way" and we wouldn't have useful information for scumhunting in the first place. No outburst or finger pointing. Zeph shows lots of discomfort when dealing with this kind of tone in Mad Men though. 2. You... vote for wbg, ninja switch to me, ninja switch to prp, meekly say "oh my votes were kind of rash and jumping the gun. It's a mistake but is it really suspicious?" (paraphrase). A single thread post isn't all that visible, but voting thread posts? Can't bury those too well. And the frequent "typos"? Smiley among bold text = cant miss it. I got lots of reactions from that. You then accuse him of "feeding the chaos". Personally I don't really see this at all. Has anyone else felt that zephirdd has made this game chaotic? I haven't. -He is not pro-town. Not at all. No one thought I was a serious issue; he tried to make a case out of one post and is still trying to make something out of nothing. -And that "mini case" on you? His insta-vote of you turns into an actual case even though he says it means nothing? -And posting that list of lurkers. Noncommittal. 3. The point about calling town reads scummy and posting town reads is a stretch. He's talking about me being scummy because I posted several town reads without explanation. That's different from saying that it's outright scummy to post a town read at all. I think this is confirmation bias looking for more evidence. Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 04:45 Zephirdd wrote:
"not contributing"? What do you want me to do, pull bullshit out of my ass the way you are doing?
wbg outing masons is a town move because he believes there is scum in the masons; He is outing them in order to pressure them.
VE is town because his posting lines up with cautious blue that wants to protect his supposedly powerful mason role.
Erandorr is dumb, but I'd say he wouldn't be that dumb as scum.
Talismania's posts made sense for me when he posted them, and I still see them as possible town opinions.
prplhz has been baiting scum with certain actions, while making sense with others. He hasn't caused chaos and is doing a good job in keeping the pace of the thread.
Everything else is a null tell.
I hate defending other people. That's their job. I only defend someone when I feel I have someone better to lynch. I don't.
Deal with it. No quotes, no nothing. This is a lazy post, and there is very little explanation. The "rationale" is all really broad statements. Super broad. 4. Next, you can't just say "this post is swiss cheese. Full of holes" and not point out what the holes are. I mean you should give his case an honest response, not just dismiss it out of hand. The problem with the case is its inconsistency with Zeph's town posts. in NMMII As town, he wanted cold facts. Now he is emotional, and there is simply not enough evidence in his case on me to realistically be as sure as he is.5. The last part you should also spell out more. Like you're stating a meta-difference from NMM II to now but you're sort of stating it and going "here, see?" but I'm too obtuse to figure out what exactly is different. The difference is that in NMM he wants great proof before acting. He does not operate like that here.
1.
Check out who you quoted. Check out the timing of the quote. Check out the discussion going on.
That guy is Bluelightz, the Unreadable. You can't determine his alignment until it's too late for either side.
That was a discussion about policy lynches. I am not accusing anyone(although the "you scum? part" is another example of a bait).
We are discussing policy lynches and useless stuff to get the thread going. On that game, I realized my opening post was terrible - hence the random voting this game, if you care. There is nothing to attack. No one is using terrible reasoning to create suspicion. Besides, Bluelightz is a friend; Who are you? This is your first game here, right?
2.
I made a correct case on that same game on prplhz. He had three posts. You telling me I can't make a case out of one post? Besides, the case is only being incremented every time you post more; That's because you're posting like scum.
I decided my mini-case has less importance than you.
The lurker list is a null tell at its best, why do you care about it? Why are you searching for stuff to accuse me of?
3.
Let me requote myself. I hate defending other people. That's their job. Of course I'm not posting fuckload of quotes or whatnot. IIRC that specific post was made because people wanted to know why I didn't have any real scum read at the time.
4.
Sometimes context is essential. All the FACTS discussion on NMM2 was due to Sinensis making a terrible case on me and getting me angry(hence why scum likes to provoke emotion). You even quoted my emotional burst against him on that game. Difference here is that I see your AtE from the outside; My judgement isn't clouded by emotions.
The fact here is that all your accusations are scummy accusations.
5.
Oh do I want great proof before acting? I made a fucking case out of three posts, and the case was correct. Granted, out of policy I fucked up that game; That just means I have troubles holding confidence over a case. I won't fall for this trap here.
Also, I guess someone from NMM2 is scum here right? Either that or you did a pretty good job in checking my meta; Too bad you're using meta in a terrible way.
If I missed any accusations that you think are worth responding too(aka. if you want to bury yourself more) feel free to ask again. It's been a REALLY busy monday and I'm really not in the mood of answering every tidbit that comes out of you.
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Erand you're like...not HEARING logic bro! Bugs already told you why he outted us as masons, and you didn't accept his reasoning! While it inconvenienced my use of the power (as far as like...sneakily getting scum to tell me their seekrits or whatever) it has actually HELPED town in that it has given the rest of the players OUTSIDE of the three of us a means to further their reads on all of us. slOosh said this. I've said this. Yet what do you do when asked to logically argue your case? You point to the same 4 or 5 ILLOGICAL POSTS on the matter!!
You have failed to say why Bugs, your #1 scumread atm, is scummy in any kind of coherent way short of "He's a meaniehead!"
You have failed to explain why you would, after knowing he outted me as mason, mason Bugs if your status as Mason is so damned precious. Let me ask YOU Erand: you think Bugs' move to "out the masons" was "anti-town" right? Then what was YOUR move to mason Bugs KNOWING he was going to out you to the thread? ITS THE EXACT SAME THING! Except when Bugs did it he did it with the intent of giving information to the thread. When you masoned Bugs, it was surreptitious...sneaky. Like look at the options:
1) Bugs outs you as mason. "SCUM!!! He shouldn't do that it's ANTITOWN!!"
2) Bugs does NOT out you as mason. "SCUMM!!!!! Why would he out VE and not me?!"
There's literally no situation in which he could be town bro! You did that knowing what you were going to think of him! SO WHY DO IT IN THE FIRST PLACE?!?!?
##Vote: Erandorr
Smooches, bro.
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On August 07 2012 09:01 VisceraEyes wrote:
Erand you're like...not HEARING logic bro! Bugs already told you why he outted us as masons, and you didn't accept his reasoning! While it inconvenienced my use of the power (as far as like...sneakily getting scum to tell me their seekrits or whatever) it has actually HELPED town in that it has given the rest of the players OUTSIDE of the three of us a means to further their reads on all of us. slOosh said this. I've said this. Yet what do you do when asked to logically argue your case? You point to the same 4 or 5 ILLOGICAL POSTS on the matter!!
You have failed to say why Bugs, your #1 scumread atm, is scummy in any kind of coherent way short of "He's a meaniehead!"
You have failed to explain why you would, after knowing he outted me as mason, mason Bugs if your status as Mason is so damned precious. Let me ask YOU Erand: you think Bugs' move to "out the masons" was "anti-town" right? Then what was YOUR move to mason Bugs KNOWING he was going to out you to the thread? ITS THE EXACT SAME THING! Except when Bugs did it he did it with the intent of giving information to the thread. When you masoned Bugs, it was surreptitious...sneaky. Like look at the options:
1) Bugs outs you as mason. "SCUM!!! He shouldn't do that it's ANTITOWN!!"
2) Bugs does NOT out you as mason. "SCUMM!!!!! Why would he out VE and not me?!"
There's literally no situation in which he could be town bro! You did that knowing what you were going to think of him! SO WHY DO IT IN THE FIRST PLACE?!?!?
##Vote: Erandorr
Smooches, bro.
Couple of simple questions :
1) what about the logs(your pms with wbg) made you think wbg is town? Several people asked this and you sort of forgot to answer it.
2)Did you miss the part where I explained 30 times that its not at all about the mason thing anymore?
3) 2) Bugs does NOT out you as mason. "SCUMM!!!!! Why would he out VE and not me?!"
No. It would have been me asking him in a PM why he outed VE.
Why do you reduce the mason role to that? Wbg is a proven player, and as I stated before, the most important part of masoning someone is wanting to talk to them in private. I know thats hard for you to comprehend, given the pm logs between you and him.
He did something I completely disagreed with, so I wanted to know why. In private. Now in my opinion, outing me like that after having done nothing at all that benifits town made me lean very much scum on him. We have been over this enough
4) I wrote something earlier, which you obviously completely ignored. Could you go back to this and answer it?
Also, this does not reaaally make that much sense if I am scum. Look at the amout of attention and spotlight I have gotten from this.
You seem to think WBG is town, correct? And WBG as town is usually pretty decent, not this terrible raging mess we have seen this game.
So why on earth would I mason one of the strongest town players in the game, to call him scum? Do you honestly think any Scum would have the balls to do that? And actually push for his lynch no matter what? I am not tunneling some random lurking noob with 2 posts per day, I am activly going against a proven Vet. What Scum player would do that?
5)You have failed to say why Bugs, your #1 scumread atm, is scummy in any kind of coherent way short of "He's a meaniehead!"
You repeat this quite often. Where have I done this?
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I am using numbers so you can't cherry pick what you actually want to answer <3
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:/
I'm not cherrypicking what I want to answer, if I missed something feel free to bring it back up (as you've been doing) rather than underhandedly accuse me of shit. This is how people get fucking pissed off Erand.
1) His reads / willingness to discuss them with me
2) Why did this warrant a number? If you want to accuse me of shit then just fucking accuse me of shit. No I didn't miss it, I don't give a FUCK what your accusation against Bugs is about, my accusation against YOU DOES HAVE TO DO WITH THE MASON SHIT SO I DON'T FUCKING CARE WHAT IT'S ABOUT BETWEEN YOU AND BUGS
3) WIFOM. Easy enough to say this after the fact, but considering your reaction to him doing something predictable, I feel my prediction is more accurate than your explanation here. Thanks though, that was pseudo-informative.
4) WIFOM. I don't care what you think makes sense "if you're scum". However, the fact that you've put thought and effort into explaining that reads scummy regardless. So thanks I guess?
5)
On August 05 2012 00:56 Erandorr wrote:
Oh also I am not pissing at him in PMs. He is making it sound like that , isn't he?
I was still trying to ask him questions after he called me worthless for the 30th time.
On August 05 2012 06:18 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 05:48 strongandbig wrote:On August 05 2012 05:38 slOosh wrote:On August 05 2012 05:36 strongandbig wrote:On August 05 2012 04:57 slOosh wrote:On August 05 2012 04:53 strongandbig wrote:On August 05 2012 04:33 wherebugsgo wrote:
Also the people who think I willingly brought attention to myself are funny. I didn't fully think of the repercussions when I outted the masons in terms of thread presence but I also didn't account for the fact that many people who have different opinions will consider opposing viewpoints as scummy (because they are incapable of understanding that different does not mean scum) if you're town then your play this game has been fucking terrible. i guess maybe you have irl shit but that's really the only explanation i could accept for why you've been playing the way you have instead of how you normally play. like, i usually have a lot of respect for how you play but if you're town this game you're being both stupid and an asshole, and i don't feel like sitting here and taking your shit. He got pissed off and it resulted in some unwanted behavior. Move on - do you have any objections to a talismania lynch? forgot to answer this. My objection to a talismania lynch is that it's not a wbg lynch. I don't understand why his recent behavior makes people think he's town. I don't see how it's alignment indicative. Read his PM log with Erandorr. Try to approach it from a "what is scum WBG trying to accomplish with his actions" rather than a "is WBG playing as well as what I envision a town WBG would play like". Just finished reading it. So you're thinking about this wrong. wbg's play isn't accomplishing objectives when he gets into this fight with errandor and starts raging everywhere. As I've said before, I think that scum wbg would be just as upset at the prospect of getting lynched for what he sees as shitty reasons as town wbg would. What I see in that pm log is just what wbg said it was - no serious attempt to persuade, except to persuade erandor that he's stupid. So no, I don't see that chat log as alignment indicative, I see it as "wbg being in a really bad mood for some out of game reason" indicative. Look at his play before the fight between him and erandorr, that's where we have things that are actually valid to analyze. Could you guys also please look at the "fight" where i try really hard to actually do stuff and he insults me about 100 times.
On August 05 2012 07:26 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +I really still think Erandorr is the best read.
He starts with this gem, voting on Bugs for no reason at all. Maybe I'm crazy, but I'm not a fan of votes for literally no reason, as they don't create functional discussion, and could cause trouble, or be used as cover later.
On August 03 2012 11:37 Erandorr wrote:
Show nested quote +
lets start this game right
## VOTE: WBG Its a joke I make in quite a few games I play with WBG. Feel free to check, I won't do it for you. Show nested quote +Most of page 2 of his filter is nonsensical babble or ad homs.
He masons onto WBG after WBG outs VE, as "proof" WBG is outing masons. Or maybe to get himself confirmed as a role in hopes he gets some BOTD.
He throws out personal attacks against anyone who disagrees with him repeatedly, an example:
On August 03 2012 23:58 Erandorr wrote:
Yo you guys. You actually don't use "reason" or "arguments" you just sit there and talk shit. If you disagree with me, point out mistakes you think I made instead of shitting out terrible posts What I am posting below is the post I was referring to. Would you not agree that my outburst was warranted, considering this example? Is there any way you would call that post below anything else that "shit" or "terrible" ? Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 23:53 Erandorr wrote:
Show nested quote +
I wanted to see if he did it again, considering I know my alignment. Its a completely anti town move . Give me one reason why not to hammer wbg right now please. oh oh oh I know why not hammer him right now! Deadline is on saturday. No one is lynched until then. You can't hammer someone right now Epic defense against Hier. Show nested quote +
On August 04 2012 08:23 Erandorr wrote:
Show nested quote +
Dear god I hope you are trolling
Did you read Hiers case? Do you agree with the points he made? Because that one is so terrible I honestly didnt even think I would have to reply to that one. Which blithely ignores certain parts of the log, like Show nested quote +
ME: its about you playing like complete dogshit
ME: you are playing like shit
ME: your logic is really bad
[04.08.12 13:03:32] ME: the one where you got killed
[04.08.12 13:03:42] ME: cause you fucked up as scum?
[04.08.12 13:03:57] ME: okay sry i just thought that was funny
Those are some brilliant examples of attempting productivity, and keeping it calm.
I assume you have read the entire log. Did you notice that he insulted me about 100 times before that? And the one time I get so upset as to say what I do in the quote I INSTANTLY APOLOGIZE?I mean seriously, this shit here borders on malicious. Now would you mind telling us why you have not said a single word about the WBG case? What are your thoughts on him? It is a bit strange to not mention something that has been talked about for like 20 pages. Would you also mind telling us what you think about talismania? You already gave the 1 line that were your thoughts about prplhz, so I don't have to ask that as well! I have answered every point of your case against me, if there is something that you are still not convinced about , please let me know. Now how about you start talking about people who may actually get lynched today
On August 05 2012 09:49 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 09:11 BroodKingEXE wrote:
I have a problem with the top two lynch candidates.
WBG: calling out the mason was a good move in my book. But it doesn't make shit sense from the scum POV, scum can kill him regardless of whether or not the town knows the mason. His feud with Eran seems to be long standing and I could believe bugs could get frustrated and rage.
prplphz: Although his play has been poor I agree with his initial case against Glasse. Glasse's play was poor and lynch worthy at the time. Furthermore this lynch seems too much like a wagon on an inactive.
I feel much more comfortable lynching Eran. Seems like he could be mason scum manipulating bugs, looking to create trouble. He said himself he wanted to create a scumhunting environment, yet he helps initiate a shitstorm in a mason PM. are you. fucking . serious. When someone else opens your pm conversation with "ur bad never play a game of mafia ever again "Then how exactly am I initiating a shitstorm. Since no one except Wbg or Prplhz will get lynched, I will keep my vote on bugs. Also make some effort reading that thing before posting something like that. I am completely fine discussing actual facts, but this feels like I am up against fox news or something. Fuck facts when you can make random statements look like the truth amirite? Broodking. Is that your best case? No this is not an OMGUS, you refute big cases on 2 players without even adressing the points of why people think they are scum. Then you call out me for that? "I look like I could be a scum mason manipulating bugs" and follow up with something that is completely wrong. I mean.. seriously?
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VE, wtf.
Can you please look at those quotes in context?
1st quote: I respond to who seem to think that the raging started with me, not him
2nd : I think his rage is was a tool to dodge any questions he did not want to answer.
3rd: is a response to that guy accusing me of being as guilty of raging as wbg, and using it as part of a case vs me. its not me whining, its me clarifying something someone is not willing to see.
4th: the same, broodking accuses me of starting the shitstorm so once again I try to use "facts"
No I didn't miss it, I don't give a FUCK what your accusation against Bugs is about
Erand you're like...not HEARING logic bro! Bugs already told you why he outted us as masons, and you didn't accept his reasoning! While it inconvenienced my use of the power (as far as like...sneakily getting scum to tell me their seekrits or whatever) it has actually HELPED town in that it has given the rest of the players OUTSIDE of the three of us a means to further their reads on all of us. slOosh said this. I've said this. Yet what do you do when asked to logically argue your case? You point to the same 4 or 5 ILLOGICAL POSTS on the matter!!
Liar.
About the "wifom"
I think you are scum at this point. If you are town then you are one of the biggest morons I have ever seen called "good" at mafia.
I also think you probably are scum with WBG, at least I hope you are
WBG
VE
Jingles
Broodking
Some other random lurker (hassy,bio...? )
##Vote wbg
I am out, good luck with the game.
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To clarify, its not about you or wbg, its about every single other person in the game S&B and maaaybe Toad excluded
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I'll show you "moron" you little shit!
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Rofl, you guys are hilarious.
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Eran, why do you make a ton of points about VE, then vote WBG, and accuse me of being scum for... some reason? Possibly for not jumping on the prp wagon when ordered?
It doesn't compute. Going back through context, I was planning to try and give you some BOTD, but this kind of bears some explanation.
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On August 07 2012 08:46 Zephirdd wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 07 2012 07:25 CountDropula wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 02:08 talismania wrote:CountDropula I'm going to read and respond to your case, will you read mine? + Show Spoiler +On August 07 2012 00:56 CountDropula wrote:Zephirdd, it's time. I'm calling you out. This post is not me bashing you as a player. I'm picking up on general trends in your play and and using our interaction as an extended example. It's written in the second person because I'm confident you will crack under the pressure. You know this too, don't you? Zeph. You don't think I read your previous games before our confrontation on d1? You were all about facts and concrete arguments in normal mini mafia 2. So when I tried acting level-headed and nooby (the profile of someone I think your town-self would be comfortable with) to gauge if you were the same town Zeph from that game, you acted in the exact opposite way town Zeph would have. Everything you have against me is against me personally. Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 08:59 Zephirdd wrote:On August 04 2012 08:19 CountDropula wrote:On August 03 2012 10:41 Zephirdd wrote:On August 03 2012 10:36 JingleHell wrote:On August 03 2012 10:34 prplhz wrote:
And we're off.
This is a 23 player game and I will not be able to handle it if there is a 130 page spamfest between a couple of people before night1. Seriously, condense your god damn posting. That said, there's also a couple of new/newer people on the list. You guys remember to post your thoughts and stuff on the game. No one here bites. Do you bite if we ask nicely? Zephirdd, don't you think there's danger of an early bandwagon voting with no cause like that? It's hard to defend yourself against a vote for no reason. FoS Zephirdd What. If you really think an early bandwagon would come from a vote like that, then you are silly. He doesn't even have to defend himself against non-existant accusations. ##unvote
##vote JingleHell Zephirdd's change from one unfounded vote to another tells me that 1. He doesn't care who is lynched 2. He doesn't feel comfortable dealing with pressure, so he fires back on jinglehell counterproductively. On August 03 2012 20:02 Zephirdd wrote:
Masoned players should claim IMO.
masons themselves shouldn't unless that would save his life.
toad, why improvise? Are you feeling some kind of pressure that stops you from making a decent post? On August 03 2012 20:27 Zephirdd wrote:
What you said makes sense. Mason'd people shouldnt claim :s
wbg mason does sound scary too
Another example of an unsubstantiated position-taking. After a legit response from toad, another switch. He sounds way too meek in the latter quote. Any objections/further evidence backed by specific evidence? Cause I'm leaning toward voting zephirdd. I just noticed this gem. Finally that paid off. Let me explain it to you. It was 5min into the game. I didn't even bother casting those votes on the voting thread. Why? Because they didn't matter, and I'd change them later anyway. It's not that I don't care, it's just that by creating a stupid vote, you take reactions from people. People like you, who is trying to take something as silly as that as an excuse to vote me, when in fact there is nothing there that makes me scum. I'm not afraid of having opinions change, as no town should be. My opinions did change quickly - and that's pretty damn common for a town player. You are creating bullshit reasoning to jump into the wagon easily. Nice first post scum. ##unvote (talismania)
##vote CountDropula Little did you know, I was the one baiting YOU. Your first posts looked suspicious, but I wasn't sure yet, so I tried to elicit some kind of response. You then validated my suspicion. You blinked first and outed your "plan" to the thread. You weren't being patient. Your goal was not to build a case. Your goal was to make an excuse for the sake of your appearance. This whole game, all your posts have done is feed the chaos. You don't focus. Examples. Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 08:59 Zephirdd wrote:
Hm, thats a lot of shit to skim through since my last post. Holy shit. erandorr/wbg logs are just a crapload of fuckity fuck. ghost_404(I see wat you did ther rastaban) was replaced by the one guy that I found to be scum last game. then there is both talismania and prplhz cases, but nobody cared enough about CountDropula I guess.
talismania's filter - summarized nicely by BKEXE - is terrible. He was helpful during the "discussion that everyone can take any instance and still be town" phase, but not after.
I am not sure about prplhz... I guess he is a decent lynch tho, he did go afk out of nowhere, and last time I saw him doing that he was scum. He's not the kind of guy who just "goes" away.
Well, consolidating votes won't hurt, right? I still want to go back to CD on the future. You are saying nothing. Ok now this is interesting. Calling town reads a scummy move, yet posting town reads. Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 05:43 Zephirdd wrote:So I decided to actually read stuff properly now. Talismania first post containing "Glasse" is: On August 03 2012 23:51 talismania wrote:
Erandorr what do you think of Glasse? (That was after hopeless1der voted him) His second post is exactly the same. The next instance is asking toad his instance on 4 people including Glasse On August 04 2012 04:37 talismania wrote:
yep zeph is scummy for exactly why sloosh says. erandorr I thought was for a bit but I don't understand masoning wbg from a scum pov. jinglehell is town, lazer is town, strongandbig is town. toad I thought was scum at first because of the timing of his patented color text post but he's just been being generally rather toady, which is to say he makes really strange (from my perspective) conclusions about what's good in the setup and what's not with strange (again from my perspective) reasoning behind it. Glasse I thought was hilariously obviously scummy. Like so blatant I honestly don't know what to think. Guess I should go dig up another game of his. Then he mirrors a player that has shown a case, throw a bunch of unnecessary town reads(nobody asked that, why do it) and after some fluff he says Glasse was "hilariously obviously scummy" without giving true reasoning(ie. giving a post and explaining why that was a scum post). Then he is rolefishing "for his own amusement". Hmm maybe people weren't wrong about questioning his plans on the beginning. Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 04:45 Zephirdd wrote:
"not contributing"? What do you want me to do, pull bullshit out of my ass the way you are doing?
wbg outing masons is a town move because he believes there is scum in the masons; He is outing them in order to pressure them.
VE is town because his posting lines up with cautious blue that wants to protect his supposedly powerful mason role.
Erandorr is dumb, but I'd say he wouldn't be that dumb as scum.
Talismania's posts made sense for me when he posted them, and I still see them as possible town opinions.
prplhz has been baiting scum with certain actions, while making sense with others. He hasn't caused chaos and is doing a good job in keeping the pace of the thread.
Everything else is a null tell.
I hate defending other people. That's their job. I only defend someone when I feel I have someone better to lynch. I don't.
Deal with it. Your play is getting worse. This last post is swiss cheese. Full of holes. Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 23:37 Zephirdd wrote:'sup folks. Busy sunday yesterday. Didn't read much, so I didn't post. I'm still re-reading some stuff, but I'll post some of my thoughts right now. The obvious one, CountDropula: 1. Uses terrible arguments to jump into my bandwagon: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=22#436He is using my random votings from 3-5minutes into the day as reasoning to vote me. He is using my change of instances based on someone's else opinion as reasoning to vote me. Neither of these are scum traits, nor do they push scum agendas.It's entirely reasonable that a town player would change opinions within two posts, given that someone gives the proper arguments. Random voting someone for the sake of random voting, 5 minutes into the day, is pretty much a bait for scum. A real town would look at that and realize it's not a reason to push someone; It means NOTHING action-wise. Yet, he uses it to make my wagon gain strength. Granted, he never voted me; which is even worse: if you have a suspicion on someone, why would you not vote him? 2. Appeal to emotion: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=23#459(From Ace's thread on how-to-play-scum: a good scum trait is provoking emotion out of town) I don't know where did he pull that I had a burst of emotion. Besides, why bring it up at all? Again, it's one of these traits that don't determine someone's alignment - in fact, I'd argue it's much more likely that a town player show a burst of emotion than a scum player. Then he pulls some bullshit "You never answered XXX" when I answered everything. And I even said more a few posts later. He never counter-argued. Then he calls for some "concrete defense" when he nevers says what about my defense is not concrete. Simply put, he is throwing loaded(and VERY loaded) sentences to try and break me down. How the f* does someone give a "concrete defense" on this game? Fucking no one can do that without being an Innocent Child or confirmed-town-dayvig. There is also these posts: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=40#800http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=41#802These posts have no purpose except bringing emotion into the table and - hopefully for him - numbing people's judgement. This is pretty much a scum move. 3. Hypocrisy, blending in: On August 05 2012 03:16 CountDropula wrote:
I really think the most important issue for us right now is getting people active. Were giving mafia too much space to hide.
Nevertheless, I'm voting wbg right now though that can change.
For sure watching zeph though, but I need a better case. This makes him look good right, he is calling for people to post... He has two freakingly terrible posts that only talk about one subject and is calling for people to be activeThat's trying to blend in without putting effort into the game. He is a lurker himself and is calling lurkers out. The more he post, the scummier he looks to me. Well, his first post is red as fuck already, but he is just being worse over time. So yeah, I'll keep reading stuff but my vote is on him already. ##Vote CountDropulaPlease don't ignore this guy. This is such a complete contradiction of your town play that it's absolutely ridiculous. Here is a post from normal mini mafia II. Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 13:12 Zephirdd wrote:On July 07 2012 13:04 Sinensis wrote:On July 07 2012 12:58 Zephirdd wrote:On July 07 2012 12:42 Sinensis wrote:
Okay, I'm caught up:
sloosh, what are you doing? You vote wiggles with no explanation, people call you out for it, you change your vote to me with no explanation at first, people call you out for it, then your explanation is that I was your first suspicion (even though you randomly voted wiggles first?) because my posting is mechanical? My posting is mechanical and that's why I'm scummy, maybe you could elaborate on that. Even though you seem to have changed your mind again to prplhz before I responded to you. Are you just jumping on the easiest target every time? What's the deal?
Prplhz shouldn't be lynched today. No way in hell. He's gotten too much negative attention from too many people, it seems likely to me mafia is pushing for the easy lynch against an aggressive player. And why wouldn't they? prplhz isn't playing as good or as friendly as he could be. This is the last time I defend him against the rest of the angry mob unless he stops with the "LOL SCUM LOL."
I am going to go with gut for my day one vote. Zephirdd's posting is the scummiest right now in my opinion. He spends a lot of his time telling other, presumably town players, how to play. Something mafia can't seem to resist doing in most of the games I play. He is stating mostly FACTS (people talking like they know something for certain are suspicious because only mafia have FACTS) and very little speculation.
As for everyone who is suspicious of me for lurking, you're right, it's suspicious, my bad. I work during the day (USEAST) and can't post till night usually. Expect my posts then, like I'm doing now. If anyone has any questions for me now is a good time I will be around.
##vote: Zephirdd Alright, there are a couple of wrong things here. 1. Calls sloosh out, yet considers me the scummiest target 2. Says prplhz has gotten too much negative attention. Can you tell me it is possible to give him a positive trait to his play? No you can't. Because there is NO positive trait to his play so far. He's gotten a lot of negative attention because that's what his play warrants - and you agree with this on your very last sentence. In fact, his lynch has actually gotten an awfully lot of resistance, more than I would like. 3. Reasoning for me being scum is bullshit and does not warrant a vote. I posted an awful lot for day 1 this game, so if you want to point out specific points in my play, do it and I'll counter anything you have. I've stated things with certainty, because that's what I believe to be true. Stating things as FACTS means being certain of yourself. Maybe they are wrong later, who cares. What's important is that I'm decisive in what I say, and I should be held accountable to that later. Also, I love how it took you 39mins to arrive at the conclusion that I am scum, when you are behind 10 pages. Will want to hear more from you. 1. Well, at least you can read. 2. I stand by what I said. 3. "Your reason is bullshit because it's bullshit." Good job. As I said, I posted an awfully lot. Point me what is scummy specifically, and I'll point out why it is not scummy. Additionally, I added reasoning for stating things with certainty. That alone should show why it's a bad argument to vote me for that. Also, I just realized I kinda read your third paragraph wrongly. I thought you were complaining that I was posting with certainty, but you're complaining that I am mostly stating "facts" instead of "speculation". Guess what, speculating stuff is terrible =_= Oh I think you are mafia oh maybe you are town! No. I look at what people post, and define scum or town according to what they do. Then, I state a FACT and use it to prove that someone is SCUM. In fact, my spreadsheet right now only has facts, and these facts help me determine an alignment. Playing under speculations is a bad way to play imo. On July 07 2012 13:08 Sinensis wrote:
Yeah, and I don't think he'd post like that as mafia. I don't think anyone would. I don't know how else you want me to explain it to you but I believe what I believe and if you take a look at my history in TL games, it's usually pretty hard to change my mind once I've made it up. Won't even bother rebutting then :| No compulsion to go crazy in response to suspicion because you are town in this game. In Mad Men, you say that nothing is concrete because you don't want it to be. You thrive on chaos. And another one from normal mini. Note the importance he places on facts. Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 13:50 Zephirdd wrote:I knew you'd go quote a bunch of stuff unrelated to what we were talking about and ennumerate them as bolded FACTS WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT WHAT WAHT AWHTAW THAW HT ATA THSDDS What the fuck. How. What. I need a break. Look. Can you define a fact in simple terms? I can: it's something that can't be denied. I posted facts. I literally pointed the obvious. Things that cannot be denied. These things made me infer that someone is scum - scumhuntingI have not seen you pointing out facts about me. I have not seen you pointing out things that can't be denied, specifically, the way I'm doing to an actual candidate. Do you think your vote on me has any chance of gaining any traction to form into a lynch? If you think so, I think you are wrong because your case is substantially weak when compared to what I point out about the actual candidate. If you don't think so, then why are you even bothering with me? I need a break. I'll grab some beer. Watch EVO. and go to sleep. Don't wait my answers until tomorrow at ~00KST(which should be noon for me). Day and night. All you are posting in this game is speculative, your case against me is not complete and irrefutable - actually it's the opposite since its based on so little. Town Zeph would never have done this. This is expected from a lazy scum case. Same thing with that "minicase" on talismania. It's well below the standard of your previous town game. You voted me at 8.59 August 4. I had one post at the time. one. Ever since then you've been pushing me as scum. How can you draw a conclusion like that from nothing? You know something we don't, and you were trying to create a distraction from more relevant issues. If you respond with a crazy belligerent post you just lynched yourself. Honestly you are dead with any response you make, because you are so irredeemably bad at playing scum that you will make a mistake and I will pick you apart with it. Now who's the noob scum? Guys, don't bury this post. Please give it serious thought, cause I've got a really strong read on this guy. If I'm wrong about this, I deserve to be lynched. Get this guy into the spotlight and he will crack. Please. Lets lynch Zephirdd and start killing mafia. Ok so this stuff doesn't quite add up. If I follow, what you're saying is that in reading Zephirdd's posts, you thought he might be scum early on. You then went to research previous games of his. After researching it, you noticed that zephirdd was "comfortable" with people that acted "level-headed and nooby". So first question, 1) Can you give us an example from that game of someone acting "level-headed and nooby" and then zephirdd reacting by being "comfortable" with them? You then decided to lay a trap for him. You yourself would act level-headed and nooby by making a case against him, to see how he would respond. He then snaps back at you, and you call this scummy because he didn't wait to build a case on you with other information. Ok I follow that even though it's kind of a stretch. But this is where things go off for me You've laid a trap based on eliciting a particular meta-response He falls for it You... vote for wbg, ninja switch to me, ninja switch to prp, meekly say "oh my votes were kind of rash and jumping the gun. It's a mistake but is it really suspicious?" (paraphrase). Well ok let me think this through. Perhaps it still holds consistency. After all you are accusing zeph for being scummy by springing a trap too early. You had yours, but you didn't want to spring it yet because you wanted more time to build a case. I can sort of buy that. You then accuse him of "feeding the chaos". Personally I don't really see this at all. Has anyone else felt that zephirdd has made this game chaotic? I haven't. The point about calling town reads scummy and posting town reads is a stretch. He's talking about me being scummy because I posted several town reads without explanation. That's different from saying that it's outright scummy to post a town read at all. I think this is confirmation bias looking for more evidence. Next, you can't just say "this post is swiss cheese. Full of holes" and not point out what the holes are. I mean you should give his case an honest response, not just dismiss it out of hand. The last part you should also spell out more. Like you're stating a meta-difference from NMM II to now but you're sort of stating it and going "here, see?" but I'm too obtuse to figure out what exactly is different. 1) Can you give us an example from that game of someone acting "level-headed and nooby" and then zephirdd reacting by being "comfortable" with them? Yes. I define "level-headed and nooby" as taking an honest and simple look at information and raising a question. Here is a post with this tone from NMMII. It's directed at Zeph. Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 11:30 Bluelightz wrote:On July 06 2012 11:27 Zephirdd wrote:
My opinion is that going "besides everyone's usual fill of Policy Lynch is bad" is cutting on the discussion and reducing the potential subjects for dicussing, thus reducing the potential to scumhunting. Who wants to avoid scumhunters? scum.
Bluelightz, you're scum? It's just from my expierience that when someone start's a discussion about policy lynches everyone always think it's bad so therefore I just cut to the chase and get started with scum hunting. This is how he responds. Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 11:32 Zephirdd wrote:
you're not cutting to the chase, having that part of the discussion is great. Even if people agree, the way they do it is what matters.
However, if they don't even need to do it, we wouldn't find their "way" and we wouldn't have useful information for scumhunting in the first place. No outburst or finger pointing. Zeph shows lots of discomfort when dealing with this kind of tone in Mad Men though. 2. You... vote for wbg, ninja switch to me, ninja switch to prp, meekly say "oh my votes were kind of rash and jumping the gun. It's a mistake but is it really suspicious?" (paraphrase). A single thread post isn't all that visible, but voting thread posts? Can't bury those too well. And the frequent "typos"? Smiley among bold text = cant miss it. I got lots of reactions from that. You then accuse him of "feeding the chaos". Personally I don't really see this at all. Has anyone else felt that zephirdd has made this game chaotic? I haven't. -He is not pro-town. Not at all. No one thought I was a serious issue; he tried to make a case out of one post and is still trying to make something out of nothing. -And that "mini case" on you? His insta-vote of you turns into an actual case even though he says it means nothing? -And posting that list of lurkers. Noncommittal. 3. The point about calling town reads scummy and posting town reads is a stretch. He's talking about me being scummy because I posted several town reads without explanation. That's different from saying that it's outright scummy to post a town read at all. I think this is confirmation bias looking for more evidence. Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 04:45 Zephirdd wrote:
"not contributing"? What do you want me to do, pull bullshit out of my ass the way you are doing?
wbg outing masons is a town move because he believes there is scum in the masons; He is outing them in order to pressure them.
VE is town because his posting lines up with cautious blue that wants to protect his supposedly powerful mason role.
Erandorr is dumb, but I'd say he wouldn't be that dumb as scum.
Talismania's posts made sense for me when he posted them, and I still see them as possible town opinions.
prplhz has been baiting scum with certain actions, while making sense with others. He hasn't caused chaos and is doing a good job in keeping the pace of the thread.
Everything else is a null tell.
I hate defending other people. That's their job. I only defend someone when I feel I have someone better to lynch. I don't.
Deal with it. No quotes, no nothing. This is a lazy post, and there is very little explanation. The "rationale" is all really broad statements. Super broad. 4. Next, you can't just say "this post is swiss cheese. Full of holes" and not point out what the holes are. I mean you should give his case an honest response, not just dismiss it out of hand. The problem with the case is its inconsistency with Zeph's town posts. in NMMII As town, he wanted cold facts. Now he is emotional, and there is simply not enough evidence in his case on me to realistically be as sure as he is.5. The last part you should also spell out more. Like you're stating a meta-difference from NMM II to now but you're sort of stating it and going "here, see?" but I'm too obtuse to figure out what exactly is different. The difference is that in NMM he wants great proof before acting. He does not operate like that here.
1.
Check out who you quoted. Check out the timing of the quote. Check out the discussion going on.
That guy is Bluelightz, the Unreadable. You can't determine his alignment until it's too late for either side.
That was a discussion about policy lynches. I am not accusing anyone(although the "you scum? part" is another example of a bait).
We are discussing policy lynches and useless stuff to get the thread going. On that game, I realized my opening post was terrible - hence the random voting this game, if you care. There is nothing to attack. No one is using terrible reasoning to create suspicion. Besides, Bluelightz is a friend; Who are you? This is your first game here, right?
2.
I made a correct case on that same game on prplhz. He had three posts. You telling me I can't make a case out of one post? Besides, the case is only being incremented every time you post more; That's because you're posting like scum.
I decided my mini-case has less importance than you.
The lurker list is a null tell at its best, why do you care about it? Why are you searching for stuff to accuse me of?
3.
Let me requote myself. I hate defending other people. That's their job. Of course I'm not posting fuckload of quotes or whatnot. IIRC that specific post was made because people wanted to know why I didn't have any real scum read at the time.
4.
Sometimes context is essential. All the FACTS discussion on NMM2 was due to Sinensis making a terrible case on me and getting me angry(hence why scum likes to provoke emotion). You even quoted my emotional burst against him on that game. Difference here is that I see your AtE from the outside; My judgement isn't clouded by emotions.
The fact here is that all your accusations are scummy accusations.
5.
Oh do I want great proof before acting? I made a fucking case out of three posts, and the case was correct. Granted, out of policy I fucked up that game; That just means I have troubles holding confidence over a case. I won't fall for this trap here.
Also, I guess someone from NMM2 is scum here right? Either that or you did a pretty good job in checking my meta; Too bad you're using meta in a terrible way.
If I missed any accusations that you think are worth responding too(aka. if you want to bury yourself more) feel free to ask again. It's been a REALLY busy monday and I'm really not in the mood of answering every tidbit that comes out of you.[/QUOTE]
Congrats!
You are now running scared!
Its funny how your most emotional post in NMM is a lot less emotional than your tamest accusation in Mad Men.
Its also funny how you are suddenly reverting to your style in NMM. What, no angry counter accusations?
Ill tell you who i am. I am the guy who owned you d1 of his first game. And you know it. Tell me its not true after how you recoiled just now.
And how can you say all my accusations are scummy? All of them? How do you know? How can you arrive at this conclusion by paraphrasing stuff? Btw i already know everything about that game and others, so you better be more careful. Its not the case that you made or didn't make, its how you made it. You know this, thats why you won't quote examples.
Oh, and i got you again.
You are doing exactly what i wanted you to do, exactly what i told you to do in my post accusing you. I said that attacking me would be lynching yourself. That wouldnt have meant anything to a townie, but you got all scared. I have already eliminated your offense and made you change your tone. Your fear paralyzes you. Your play degrades with every post, and I become more sure.
I control your fear.
I control you.
Give me some analysis to back up your defense. If you dont answer...nvm, no more threats. If mafia are smart, they will bus the dead weight.
Cause when you flip, who knows who it might reveal?
Later, scumpuppet
|
On August 07 2012 08:46 Zephirdd wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 07 2012 07:25 CountDropula wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 02:08 talismania wrote:CountDropula I'm going to read and respond to your case, will you read mine? + Show Spoiler +On August 07 2012 00:56 CountDropula wrote:Zephirdd, it's time. I'm calling you out. This post is not me bashing you as a player. I'm picking up on general trends in your play and and using our interaction as an extended example. It's written in the second person because I'm confident you will crack under the pressure. You know this too, don't you? Zeph. You don't think I read your previous games before our confrontation on d1? You were all about facts and concrete arguments in normal mini mafia 2. So when I tried acting level-headed and nooby (the profile of someone I think your town-self would be comfortable with) to gauge if you were the same town Zeph from that game, you acted in the exact opposite way town Zeph would have. Everything you have against me is against me personally. Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 08:59 Zephirdd wrote:On August 04 2012 08:19 CountDropula wrote:On August 03 2012 10:41 Zephirdd wrote:On August 03 2012 10:36 JingleHell wrote:On August 03 2012 10:34 prplhz wrote:
And we're off.
This is a 23 player game and I will not be able to handle it if there is a 130 page spamfest between a couple of people before night1. Seriously, condense your god damn posting. That said, there's also a couple of new/newer people on the list. You guys remember to post your thoughts and stuff on the game. No one here bites. Do you bite if we ask nicely? Zephirdd, don't you think there's danger of an early bandwagon voting with no cause like that? It's hard to defend yourself against a vote for no reason. FoS Zephirdd What. If you really think an early bandwagon would come from a vote like that, then you are silly. He doesn't even have to defend himself against non-existant accusations. ##unvote
##vote JingleHell Zephirdd's change from one unfounded vote to another tells me that 1. He doesn't care who is lynched 2. He doesn't feel comfortable dealing with pressure, so he fires back on jinglehell counterproductively. On August 03 2012 20:02 Zephirdd wrote:
Masoned players should claim IMO.
masons themselves shouldn't unless that would save his life.
toad, why improvise? Are you feeling some kind of pressure that stops you from making a decent post? On August 03 2012 20:27 Zephirdd wrote:
What you said makes sense. Mason'd people shouldnt claim :s
wbg mason does sound scary too
Another example of an unsubstantiated position-taking. After a legit response from toad, another switch. He sounds way too meek in the latter quote. Any objections/further evidence backed by specific evidence? Cause I'm leaning toward voting zephirdd. I just noticed this gem. Finally that paid off. Let me explain it to you. It was 5min into the game. I didn't even bother casting those votes on the voting thread. Why? Because they didn't matter, and I'd change them later anyway. It's not that I don't care, it's just that by creating a stupid vote, you take reactions from people. People like you, who is trying to take something as silly as that as an excuse to vote me, when in fact there is nothing there that makes me scum. I'm not afraid of having opinions change, as no town should be. My opinions did change quickly - and that's pretty damn common for a town player. You are creating bullshit reasoning to jump into the wagon easily. Nice first post scum. ##unvote (talismania)
##vote CountDropula Little did you know, I was the one baiting YOU. Your first posts looked suspicious, but I wasn't sure yet, so I tried to elicit some kind of response. You then validated my suspicion. You blinked first and outed your "plan" to the thread. You weren't being patient. Your goal was not to build a case. Your goal was to make an excuse for the sake of your appearance. This whole game, all your posts have done is feed the chaos. You don't focus. Examples. Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 08:59 Zephirdd wrote:
Hm, thats a lot of shit to skim through since my last post. Holy shit. erandorr/wbg logs are just a crapload of fuckity fuck. ghost_404(I see wat you did ther rastaban) was replaced by the one guy that I found to be scum last game. then there is both talismania and prplhz cases, but nobody cared enough about CountDropula I guess.
talismania's filter - summarized nicely by BKEXE - is terrible. He was helpful during the "discussion that everyone can take any instance and still be town" phase, but not after.
I am not sure about prplhz... I guess he is a decent lynch tho, he did go afk out of nowhere, and last time I saw him doing that he was scum. He's not the kind of guy who just "goes" away.
Well, consolidating votes won't hurt, right? I still want to go back to CD on the future. You are saying nothing. Ok now this is interesting. Calling town reads a scummy move, yet posting town reads. Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 05:43 Zephirdd wrote:So I decided to actually read stuff properly now. Talismania first post containing "Glasse" is: On August 03 2012 23:51 talismania wrote:
Erandorr what do you think of Glasse? (That was after hopeless1der voted him) His second post is exactly the same. The next instance is asking toad his instance on 4 people including Glasse On August 04 2012 04:37 talismania wrote:
yep zeph is scummy for exactly why sloosh says. erandorr I thought was for a bit but I don't understand masoning wbg from a scum pov. jinglehell is town, lazer is town, strongandbig is town. toad I thought was scum at first because of the timing of his patented color text post but he's just been being generally rather toady, which is to say he makes really strange (from my perspective) conclusions about what's good in the setup and what's not with strange (again from my perspective) reasoning behind it. Glasse I thought was hilariously obviously scummy. Like so blatant I honestly don't know what to think. Guess I should go dig up another game of his. Then he mirrors a player that has shown a case, throw a bunch of unnecessary town reads(nobody asked that, why do it) and after some fluff he says Glasse was "hilariously obviously scummy" without giving true reasoning(ie. giving a post and explaining why that was a scum post). Then he is rolefishing "for his own amusement". Hmm maybe people weren't wrong about questioning his plans on the beginning. Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 04:45 Zephirdd wrote:
"not contributing"? What do you want me to do, pull bullshit out of my ass the way you are doing?
wbg outing masons is a town move because he believes there is scum in the masons; He is outing them in order to pressure them.
VE is town because his posting lines up with cautious blue that wants to protect his supposedly powerful mason role.
Erandorr is dumb, but I'd say he wouldn't be that dumb as scum.
Talismania's posts made sense for me when he posted them, and I still see them as possible town opinions.
prplhz has been baiting scum with certain actions, while making sense with others. He hasn't caused chaos and is doing a good job in keeping the pace of the thread.
Everything else is a null tell.
I hate defending other people. That's their job. I only defend someone when I feel I have someone better to lynch. I don't.
Deal with it. Your play is getting worse. This last post is swiss cheese. Full of holes. Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 23:37 Zephirdd wrote:'sup folks. Busy sunday yesterday. Didn't read much, so I didn't post. I'm still re-reading some stuff, but I'll post some of my thoughts right now. The obvious one, CountDropula: 1. Uses terrible arguments to jump into my bandwagon: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=22#436He is using my random votings from 3-5minutes into the day as reasoning to vote me. He is using my change of instances based on someone's else opinion as reasoning to vote me. Neither of these are scum traits, nor do they push scum agendas.It's entirely reasonable that a town player would change opinions within two posts, given that someone gives the proper arguments. Random voting someone for the sake of random voting, 5 minutes into the day, is pretty much a bait for scum. A real town would look at that and realize it's not a reason to push someone; It means NOTHING action-wise. Yet, he uses it to make my wagon gain strength. Granted, he never voted me; which is even worse: if you have a suspicion on someone, why would you not vote him? 2. Appeal to emotion: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=23#459(From Ace's thread on how-to-play-scum: a good scum trait is provoking emotion out of town) I don't know where did he pull that I had a burst of emotion. Besides, why bring it up at all? Again, it's one of these traits that don't determine someone's alignment - in fact, I'd argue it's much more likely that a town player show a burst of emotion than a scum player. Then he pulls some bullshit "You never answered XXX" when I answered everything. And I even said more a few posts later. He never counter-argued. Then he calls for some "concrete defense" when he nevers says what about my defense is not concrete. Simply put, he is throwing loaded(and VERY loaded) sentences to try and break me down. How the f* does someone give a "concrete defense" on this game? Fucking no one can do that without being an Innocent Child or confirmed-town-dayvig. There is also these posts: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=40#800http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=41#802These posts have no purpose except bringing emotion into the table and - hopefully for him - numbing people's judgement. This is pretty much a scum move. 3. Hypocrisy, blending in: On August 05 2012 03:16 CountDropula wrote:
I really think the most important issue for us right now is getting people active. Were giving mafia too much space to hide.
Nevertheless, I'm voting wbg right now though that can change.
For sure watching zeph though, but I need a better case. This makes him look good right, he is calling for people to post... He has two freakingly terrible posts that only talk about one subject and is calling for people to be activeThat's trying to blend in without putting effort into the game. He is a lurker himself and is calling lurkers out. The more he post, the scummier he looks to me. Well, his first post is red as fuck already, but he is just being worse over time. So yeah, I'll keep reading stuff but my vote is on him already. ##Vote CountDropulaPlease don't ignore this guy. This is such a complete contradiction of your town play that it's absolutely ridiculous. Here is a post from normal mini mafia II. Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 13:12 Zephirdd wrote:On July 07 2012 13:04 Sinensis wrote:On July 07 2012 12:58 Zephirdd wrote:On July 07 2012 12:42 Sinensis wrote:
Okay, I'm caught up:
sloosh, what are you doing? You vote wiggles with no explanation, people call you out for it, you change your vote to me with no explanation at first, people call you out for it, then your explanation is that I was your first suspicion (even though you randomly voted wiggles first?) because my posting is mechanical? My posting is mechanical and that's why I'm scummy, maybe you could elaborate on that. Even though you seem to have changed your mind again to prplhz before I responded to you. Are you just jumping on the easiest target every time? What's the deal?
Prplhz shouldn't be lynched today. No way in hell. He's gotten too much negative attention from too many people, it seems likely to me mafia is pushing for the easy lynch against an aggressive player. And why wouldn't they? prplhz isn't playing as good or as friendly as he could be. This is the last time I defend him against the rest of the angry mob unless he stops with the "LOL SCUM LOL."
I am going to go with gut for my day one vote. Zephirdd's posting is the scummiest right now in my opinion. He spends a lot of his time telling other, presumably town players, how to play. Something mafia can't seem to resist doing in most of the games I play. He is stating mostly FACTS (people talking like they know something for certain are suspicious because only mafia have FACTS) and very little speculation.
As for everyone who is suspicious of me for lurking, you're right, it's suspicious, my bad. I work during the day (USEAST) and can't post till night usually. Expect my posts then, like I'm doing now. If anyone has any questions for me now is a good time I will be around.
##vote: Zephirdd Alright, there are a couple of wrong things here. 1. Calls sloosh out, yet considers me the scummiest target 2. Says prplhz has gotten too much negative attention. Can you tell me it is possible to give him a positive trait to his play? No you can't. Because there is NO positive trait to his play so far. He's gotten a lot of negative attention because that's what his play warrants - and you agree with this on your very last sentence. In fact, his lynch has actually gotten an awfully lot of resistance, more than I would like. 3. Reasoning for me being scum is bullshit and does not warrant a vote. I posted an awful lot for day 1 this game, so if you want to point out specific points in my play, do it and I'll counter anything you have. I've stated things with certainty, because that's what I believe to be true. Stating things as FACTS means being certain of yourself. Maybe they are wrong later, who cares. What's important is that I'm decisive in what I say, and I should be held accountable to that later. Also, I love how it took you 39mins to arrive at the conclusion that I am scum, when you are behind 10 pages. Will want to hear more from you. 1. Well, at least you can read. 2. I stand by what I said. 3. "Your reason is bullshit because it's bullshit." Good job. As I said, I posted an awfully lot. Point me what is scummy specifically, and I'll point out why it is not scummy. Additionally, I added reasoning for stating things with certainty. That alone should show why it's a bad argument to vote me for that. Also, I just realized I kinda read your third paragraph wrongly. I thought you were complaining that I was posting with certainty, but you're complaining that I am mostly stating "facts" instead of "speculation". Guess what, speculating stuff is terrible =_= Oh I think you are mafia oh maybe you are town! No. I look at what people post, and define scum or town according to what they do. Then, I state a FACT and use it to prove that someone is SCUM. In fact, my spreadsheet right now only has facts, and these facts help me determine an alignment. Playing under speculations is a bad way to play imo. On July 07 2012 13:08 Sinensis wrote:
Yeah, and I don't think he'd post like that as mafia. I don't think anyone would. I don't know how else you want me to explain it to you but I believe what I believe and if you take a look at my history in TL games, it's usually pretty hard to change my mind once I've made it up. Won't even bother rebutting then :| No compulsion to go crazy in response to suspicion because you are town in this game. In Mad Men, you say that nothing is concrete because you don't want it to be. You thrive on chaos. And another one from normal mini. Note the importance he places on facts. Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 13:50 Zephirdd wrote:I knew you'd go quote a bunch of stuff unrelated to what we were talking about and ennumerate them as bolded FACTS WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT WHAT WAHT AWHTAW THAW HT ATA THSDDS What the fuck. How. What. I need a break. Look. Can you define a fact in simple terms? I can: it's something that can't be denied. I posted facts. I literally pointed the obvious. Things that cannot be denied. These things made me infer that someone is scum - scumhuntingI have not seen you pointing out facts about me. I have not seen you pointing out things that can't be denied, specifically, the way I'm doing to an actual candidate. Do you think your vote on me has any chance of gaining any traction to form into a lynch? If you think so, I think you are wrong because your case is substantially weak when compared to what I point out about the actual candidate. If you don't think so, then why are you even bothering with me? I need a break. I'll grab some beer. Watch EVO. and go to sleep. Don't wait my answers until tomorrow at ~00KST(which should be noon for me). Day and night. All you are posting in this game is speculative, your case against me is not complete and irrefutable - actually it's the opposite since its based on so little. Town Zeph would never have done this. This is expected from a lazy scum case. Same thing with that "minicase" on talismania. It's well below the standard of your previous town game. You voted me at 8.59 August 4. I had one post at the time. one. Ever since then you've been pushing me as scum. How can you draw a conclusion like that from nothing? You know something we don't, and you were trying to create a distraction from more relevant issues. If you respond with a crazy belligerent post you just lynched yourself. Honestly you are dead with any response you make, because you are so irredeemably bad at playing scum that you will make a mistake and I will pick you apart with it. Now who's the noob scum? Guys, don't bury this post. Please give it serious thought, cause I've got a really strong read on this guy. If I'm wrong about this, I deserve to be lynched. Get this guy into the spotlight and he will crack. Please. Lets lynch Zephirdd and start killing mafia. Ok so this stuff doesn't quite add up. If I follow, what you're saying is that in reading Zephirdd's posts, you thought he might be scum early on. You then went to research previous games of his. After researching it, you noticed that zephirdd was "comfortable" with people that acted "level-headed and nooby". So first question, 1) Can you give us an example from that game of someone acting "level-headed and nooby" and then zephirdd reacting by being "comfortable" with them? You then decided to lay a trap for him. You yourself would act level-headed and nooby by making a case against him, to see how he would respond. He then snaps back at you, and you call this scummy because he didn't wait to build a case on you with other information. Ok I follow that even though it's kind of a stretch. But this is where things go off for me You've laid a trap based on eliciting a particular meta-response He falls for it You... vote for wbg, ninja switch to me, ninja switch to prp, meekly say "oh my votes were kind of rash and jumping the gun. It's a mistake but is it really suspicious?" (paraphrase). Well ok let me think this through. Perhaps it still holds consistency. After all you are accusing zeph for being scummy by springing a trap too early. You had yours, but you didn't want to spring it yet because you wanted more time to build a case. I can sort of buy that. You then accuse him of "feeding the chaos". Personally I don't really see this at all. Has anyone else felt that zephirdd has made this game chaotic? I haven't. The point about calling town reads scummy and posting town reads is a stretch. He's talking about me being scummy because I posted several town reads without explanation. That's different from saying that it's outright scummy to post a town read at all. I think this is confirmation bias looking for more evidence. Next, you can't just say "this post is swiss cheese. Full of holes" and not point out what the holes are. I mean you should give his case an honest response, not just dismiss it out of hand. The last part you should also spell out more. Like you're stating a meta-difference from NMM II to now but you're sort of stating it and going "here, see?" but I'm too obtuse to figure out what exactly is different. 1) Can you give us an example from that game of someone acting "level-headed and nooby" and then zephirdd reacting by being "comfortable" with them? Yes. I define "level-headed and nooby" as taking an honest and simple look at information and raising a question. Here is a post with this tone from NMMII. It's directed at Zeph. Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 11:30 Bluelightz wrote:On July 06 2012 11:27 Zephirdd wrote:
My opinion is that going "besides everyone's usual fill of Policy Lynch is bad" is cutting on the discussion and reducing the potential subjects for dicussing, thus reducing the potential to scumhunting. Who wants to avoid scumhunters? scum.
Bluelightz, you're scum? It's just from my expierience that when someone start's a discussion about policy lynches everyone always think it's bad so therefore I just cut to the chase and get started with scum hunting. This is how he responds. Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 11:32 Zephirdd wrote:
you're not cutting to the chase, having that part of the discussion is great. Even if people agree, the way they do it is what matters.
However, if they don't even need to do it, we wouldn't find their "way" and we wouldn't have useful information for scumhunting in the first place. No outburst or finger pointing. Zeph shows lots of discomfort when dealing with this kind of tone in Mad Men though. 2. You... vote for wbg, ninja switch to me, ninja switch to prp, meekly say "oh my votes were kind of rash and jumping the gun. It's a mistake but is it really suspicious?" (paraphrase). A single thread post isn't all that visible, but voting thread posts? Can't bury those too well. And the frequent "typos"? Smiley among bold text = cant miss it. I got lots of reactions from that. You then accuse him of "feeding the chaos". Personally I don't really see this at all. Has anyone else felt that zephirdd has made this game chaotic? I haven't. -He is not pro-town. Not at all. No one thought I was a serious issue; he tried to make a case out of one post and is still trying to make something out of nothing. -And that "mini case" on you? His insta-vote of you turns into an actual case even though he says it means nothing? -And posting that list of lurkers. Noncommittal. 3. The point about calling town reads scummy and posting town reads is a stretch. He's talking about me being scummy because I posted several town reads without explanation. That's different from saying that it's outright scummy to post a town read at all. I think this is confirmation bias looking for more evidence. Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 04:45 Zephirdd wrote:
"not contributing"? What do you want me to do, pull bullshit out of my ass the way you are doing?
wbg outing masons is a town move because he believes there is scum in the masons; He is outing them in order to pressure them.
VE is town because his posting lines up with cautious blue that wants to protect his supposedly powerful mason role.
Erandorr is dumb, but I'd say he wouldn't be that dumb as scum.
Talismania's posts made sense for me when he posted them, and I still see them as possible town opinions.
prplhz has been baiting scum with certain actions, while making sense with others. He hasn't caused chaos and is doing a good job in keeping the pace of the thread.
Everything else is a null tell.
I hate defending other people. That's their job. I only defend someone when I feel I have someone better to lynch. I don't.
Deal with it. No quotes, no nothing. This is a lazy post, and there is very little explanation. The "rationale" is all really broad statements. Super broad. 4. Next, you can't just say "this post is swiss cheese. Full of holes" and not point out what the holes are. I mean you should give his case an honest response, not just dismiss it out of hand. The problem with the case is its inconsistency with Zeph's town posts. in NMMII As town, he wanted cold facts. Now he is emotional, and there is simply not enough evidence in his case on me to realistically be as sure as he is.5. The last part you should also spell out more. Like you're stating a meta-difference from NMM II to now but you're sort of stating it and going "here, see?" but I'm too obtuse to figure out what exactly is different. The difference is that in NMM he wants great proof before acting. He does not operate like that here.
1.
Check out who you quoted. Check out the timing of the quote. Check out the discussion going on.
That guy is Bluelightz, the Unreadable. You can't determine his alignment until it's too late for either side.
That was a discussion about policy lynches. I am not accusing anyone(although the "you scum? part" is another example of a bait).
We are discussing policy lynches and useless stuff to get the thread going. On that game, I realized my opening post was terrible - hence the random voting this game, if you care. There is nothing to attack. No one is using terrible reasoning to create suspicion. Besides, Bluelightz is a friend; Who are you? This is your first game here, right?
2.
I made a correct case on that same game on prplhz. He had three posts. You telling me I can't make a case out of one post? Besides, the case is only being incremented every time you post more; That's because you're posting like scum.
I decided my mini-case has less importance than you.
The lurker list is a null tell at its best, why do you care about it? Why are you searching for stuff to accuse me of?
3.
Let me requote myself. I hate defending other people. That's their job. Of course I'm not posting fuckload of quotes or whatnot. IIRC that specific post was made because people wanted to know why I didn't have any real scum read at the time.
4.
Sometimes context is essential. All the FACTS discussion on NMM2 was due to Sinensis making a terrible case on me and getting me angry(hence why scum likes to provoke emotion). You even quoted my emotional burst against him on that game. Difference here is that I see your AtE from the outside; My judgement isn't clouded by emotions.
The fact here is that all your accusations are scummy accusations.
5.
Oh do I want great proof before acting? I made a fucking case out of three posts, and the case was correct. Granted, out of policy I fucked up that game; That just means I have troubles holding confidence over a case. I won't fall for this trap here.
Also, I guess someone from NMM2 is scum here right? Either that or you did a pretty good job in checking my meta; Too bad you're using meta in a terrible way.
If I missed any accusations that you think are worth responding too(aka. if you want to bury yourself more) feel free to ask again. It's been a REALLY busy monday and I'm really not in the mood of answering every tidbit that comes out of you.
Congrats!
You are now running scared!
Its funny how your most emotional post in NMM is a lot less emotional than your tamest accusation in Mad Men.
Its also funny how you are suddenly reverting to your style in NMM. What, no angry counter accusations?
Ill tell you who i am. I am the guy who owned you d1 of his first game. I post some stuff and now you're recoiling. Tell me what i'm saying about your play is insignificant after how you recoiled just now.
And how can you say all my accusations are scummy? All of them? How do you know? How can you arrive at this conclusion by paraphrasing stuff i already know? Its not the case that you made or didn't make, its how you made it. You know this, thats why you won't quote examples.
Oh, and i got you again.
You are doing exactly what i wanted you to do, exactly what i told you to do in my post accusing you. I said that attacking me would be lynching yourself. That wouldnt have meant anything to a townie, but you got all scared. I have already eliminated your offense and made you change your tone. Your fear paralyzes you. Your play degrades with every post, and I become more sure.
I control your fear.
I control you.
Give me some analysis to back up your defense. If you dont answer...nvm, no more threats. If mafia are smart, they will bus the dead weight and keep up twisting the mainstream thread.
Cause when you flip, who knows who it might reveal?
Later, scumpuppet
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VE you out there? waiting for a pm reply.
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Count, reading your posts is like watching a game of Yugioh. OH BUT YOU ACTIVATED MY TRAP CARD!!!!!!!1 what the fuck?
First, how the fuck can you tell degrees of emotions in a post? What the fuckity fucking fuck is that fucking sentence, seriously. I am angry when I'm angry, I am calm when I'm calm. Believe it or not, but my emotions aren't entirely based on the game - if I'm angry IRL, I'll post angry here. If I feel calm, I'll answer calmly. Obviously, you took the calm I had with this convoluted post.
You didn't own me. You pissed me off. "owning" me would be lynching me and then escaping from the counter-lynch somehow(because it would warrant a counter-lynch).
Oh, and I can play your stupid game too. Next time you answer me you will either tell me I'm breaking and therefore going away from my town meta, or you will ignore me altogether. And because I told you this, you are going to do something completely different AND THAT'S WHAT I WAS PLANNING ALL ALONG HAHAHAHA Jesus christ.
You don't control my fear. You are indeed pissing me off however. Why do you resort to emotions so fucking much? Because you can't use logic against me, because that's the road a scum has to take to numb someone's judgement. Because I caught you and you want to make sure I am not in my mind to catch your buddies. Fucking no.
In case it wasn't obvious, I'll give you your analysis.
+ Show Spoiler [analysis] +CountDropula does nothing but AtE
He also creates bullshit scenarios with LOL U DOIN WAT I KNEW U WOULD DO bullshit. That comes from the first "it was a trap" by him
His accusations are scummy because they hold no ground; When counter-argued all he says is "LOL U DOIN WAT I TOLD U TO"
...
You know, there was one time I got so fucking pissed off.
It was Sinensis. Last game. You quoted the post.
I hope you play on my game when it's up. I'll make sure your death will be painfully horrible on the flavor. Yours and Sinensis.
I can't stand this U DOIN WHAT I EXPECTED posts. From you and Sinensis.
And it's obvious that you copied exactly what Sinensis did that game in order to piss me off.
Are you Sinensis' smurf? If not, did you do that on purpose?
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Town atmosphere sucks right now. The bickering really needs to stop.
I'd really like to kill scum today. I don't want us to sleep on VE as a lynch target.
Talismania has built a good case: read it.
I've posted a bit on him: click
Does anybody feel strongly that VE is town? If so I'd love to hear why.
__________________________________________
In that post of mine that I linked, I named a slew of other targets. We have waaaaay too many people in this game skating by with little to no contribution. There is probably scum in this group, and some of them have done legitimately scummy things.
I want to know why we aren't talking about lynching Hassybaby soon. He has done basically nothing to help town. He voted Bugs because he thought his annoyance/aggression was faked, but then didn't wait for the PM logs to see if they corroborated with his interpretation. His PM's with Toad show him avoiding issues until Toad tells him what to think.
How long does Glasse get to live? If he's town then he is one of scum's favorite people. He won't make reads, even when prompted. He asserts he is town, but admits he hasn't done much. He came in after prphlz' lynch and upbraided town for choosing wrong (classic scum tell), despite being on record for thinking prpl was scum. Even if he changed his mind, he did nothing to stop the mislynch that he saw as so obvious.
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On August 07 2012 12:18 Zephirdd wrote:Count, reading your posts is like watching a game of Yugioh. OH BUT YOU ACTIVATED MY TRAP CARD!!!!!!!1 what the fuck? First, how the fuck can you tell degrees of emotions in a post? What the fuckity fucking fuck is that fucking sentence, seriously. I am angry when I'm angry, I am calm when I'm calm. Believe it or not, but my emotions aren't entirely based on the game - if I'm angry IRL, I'll post angry here. If I feel calm, I'll answer calmly. Obviously, you took the calm I had with this convoluted post. You didn't own me. You pissed me off. "owning" me would be lynching me and then escaping from the counter-lynch somehow(because it would warrant a counter-lynch). Oh, and I can play your stupid game too. Next time you answer me you will either tell me I'm breaking and therefore going away from my town meta, or you will ignore me altogether. And because I told you this, you are going to do something completely different AND THAT'S WHAT I WAS PLANNING ALL ALONG HAHAHAHA Jesus christ. You don't control my fear. You are indeed pissing me off however. Why do you resort to emotions so fucking much? Because you can't use logic against me, because that's the road a scum has to take to numb someone's judgement. Because I caught you and you want to make sure I am not in my mind to catch your buddies. Fucking no. In case it wasn't obvious, I'll give you your analysis. + Show Spoiler [analysis] +CountDropula does nothing but AtE
He also creates bullshit scenarios with LOL U DOIN WAT I KNEW U WOULD DO bullshit. That comes from the first "it was a trap" by him
His accusations are scummy because they hold no ground; When counter-argued all he says is "LOL U DOIN WAT I TOLD U TO" ... You know, there was one time I got so fucking pissed off. It was Sinensis. Last game. You quoted the post. I hope you play on my game when it's up. I'll make sure your death will be painfully horrible on the flavor. Yours and Sinensis. I can't stand this U DOIN WHAT I EXPECTED posts. From you and Sinensis. And it's obvious that you copied exactly what Sinensis did that game in order to piss me off. Are you Sinensis' smurf? If not, did you do that on purpose?
Oh, scumpuppet.
Degrees of emotion? According to the "fuck" index, you are off the charts. Compensating for something?
Your last post, perhaps?
Call me a smurf. Please. It has nothing to do with my alignment. You bleed the two together. Why? How does it discredit me?
I already know how you will respond.
How sad...
Do you know what I need?
I need you to try and say I'm bad.
I need you to post a sad parody of analysis.
Wait, you already have.
I have pulled the strings of your fear, and I pull them now.
But it has gotten to the point where you have run out of options.
As expected, you try to cut your strings. It makes me stronger than ever.
You've played along well, scumpuppet.
Soon the attention of the thread will shift to you and I, and the rest of the mafia will be dragged here.
I will destroy them.
You will destroy them.
Your friends realize it. They are turning on you.
I felt you shiver through a string.
Good. You're afraid.
I want you to beg. I want you to beg them to kill me tonight. I want you to explain how the noob owns you and you need him gone.
CountDropula.
So insignificant.
So dangerous.
He is the puppeteer.
You need to escape the fear, scumpuppet.
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EPT
