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On July 14 2012 05:29 austinmcc wrote:
Torn on Keirathi. He's got some townie-looking posts, but they come only after he was pressured for being too neutral and guarded. Once he posts them, he's mostly checked out. Wishing there was more to work with here. (He posted as I was writing this, need to look back over)
Vivax looks scummy in his hopping around, all the meta nometa crap. But Vivax ALWAYS looks scummy to me. I mislynched him in newbie XVI, I found him scummy in LVI (alignment unknown as of yet), and so I don't really want to vote him D1. To me, he's an easy mislynch to push if I'm scum. He's so wrapped up in this person's meta or that person's meta that the scum team should be telling him to knock it off, right? There were plenty of other options for today's lynch, we had so many scattered votes at the start of the day. So why let him keep hanging himself? Don't like it.
marv and solstice, how are you seeing Vivax right now?
Risen still doesn't look great either. He comes back with a full scum team, an alternate scum in Gonzaw, and finds my finding him townie scummy. No activity --> 5 scum reads, with only a little reasoning backing that up. And now he tunnels Vivax, who again I always seem to find scummy and could see myself trying to mislynch if I were scum.
At the moment, I'm willing to consolidate onto Vivax or Risen if needed, but probably not Keirathi in light of his most recent response(s).
For now, my vote's going on solstice. Something really bugs me about him finding my early game to match my townie play. Yes, the length is always there, but my early posts were a mess. Gonzaw's right about that, marv is right that they look off. I wasn't pressured at all really in my newbie games, barring XIII which was just an odd game to play in. I think my response to a little pressure here was way off, because while I normally post lengthy, it's not so disorganized and jumbled. Concerned that he didn't pick up on that. That little thing keeps nagging at me enough that I'm willing to vote him.
##Vote: Solstice
Seriously? Strongest read: vivax (but apparently he's allllways scummy to austin), but imma vote s0Lstice. They don't write sitcoms this good, folks.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
already commented on Vivax, see above
I said earlier I didn't want to lynch Dropbear, now I'm not so sure. He's pushing Vivax on the basis of practically nothing, and he came out strongly defending Milton - I believe others thought scum wouldn't do this - only because he was having an argument with his scumread Vivax
He also says Keirathi is a strong townread with no explanation.
What have we got to hold Dropbear accountable for so far??
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Welp... top 5 reads from me in order of scumminess are vivax/s0L/austin/keirathi/gonzaw. Marv is really trying to get up there, though.
If vivax flips scum I think austin becomes my top scum read, if austin flips town I think s0Lstice becomes my next top scum read. If austin is scum I think s0Lstice gets a little breathing room and keirathi becomes my next top scumread. I just don't like gonzaw's posting for no apparent reason. He's on this list but I wouldn't vote for him at this point.
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On July 14 2012 05:34 marvellosity wrote:
already commented on Vivax, see above
I said earlier I didn't want to lynch Dropbear, now I'm not so sure. He's pushing Vivax on the basis of practically nothing, and he came out strongly defending Milton - I believe others thought scum wouldn't do this - only because he was having an argument with his scumread Vivax
He also says Keirathi is a strong townread with no explanation.
What have we got to hold Dropbear accountable for so far??
He said he meant Milton, not me. It was a strange slip though.
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And honestly marv your posting is really annoying me for some reason, probably moreso than gonzaw. Don't take anything I say on gonzaw/marv as a "case" though b/c they're just gut feelings with no sound logic to back them up.
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man this has been an extremely frustrating day 1 for me. I'm normally pretty stellar at looking town, so it's a weird feeling to be up for lynch. It's my own fault though, I over-estimated how much time I would have to play before the weekend.
austin- in regards to vivax, despite some stuff I found strange (he never answered my questions), I still think he is town at the moment.
I should have left awhile ago. I wont be able to check the thread until this evening. If I'm alive, then I'll finally get some quality time with the filters. If I'm dead, then gg all and good luck town!
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EBWOP: Got it. I really, REALLY dislike your defending viv here marv. That's why I'm finding you scummy. I don't think a town marv defends viv here.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
Good for you Risen <3
That's even weirder then Keirathi, how had Milton done enough at that stage to be a strong townread?
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On July 14 2012 04:16 Vivax wrote:DropBear made a possible slip, which even Keirathi pointed out. This is important cause that slip might have turned out to be in Keirathis favor and yet he pointed it out. That action reads town to me. + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2012 17:02 DropBear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 16:52 Keirathi wrote:On July 13 2012 16:46 DropBear wrote:
I want to firmly stand by Keirathi, he is one of my strongest town reads right now. Err, what? How do you have a town read on me when literally everyone else has a scum read? Oh whoops that was a mistake, i meant to say Milton. I'm unsure on you.
It's also why I think Keirathi is town.
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 14 2012 04:57 Risen wrote:Vivax: A study on why some people should just quit while they're ahead. Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 07:36 Vivax wrote:
I like gonzaws idea for the miller, but not for the masons. The masons should stay secret to pull off team stunts. Alright, good opener. Nothing too useful, but he's giving his opinion on the miller/mason claim. Better than lurking! Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 16:29 Vivax wrote:
There's no link to a voting thread in the OP methinks.Add pls?
##Vote active lurk strongandbig His very next post. How can you be an active lurker so early into the game? I initially thought this post was just something to get strongandbig posting. I, however, hate when people do things like this without at least a little solid reasoning. Pressuring people is fine, I do it (or at least I try to) and I'm not worried about that, but I dislike how this is just a single one-line vote following absolutely nothing. Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 17:21 Vivax wrote:
##unvote strongandbig
##Vote Miltonkram
Well you said you were watching something on tv yesterday and would start calling out scum soon, so I thought you were monitoring the game.
Anyway, that was a pretty informative post about marv, you have my seal of approval for unlurking.
Now I wanna see something from Milton :p. Gives credence to the possibility that he's just pressuring people into posting by using his vote as a means. Perfectly fine, and I support this pressure because it's not just "##unvote ##vote miltonb/clurk"... it's milton said he was going to lurk a little but lets add a little fire under his bum for added motivation. At this point I'm thinking, oh yeah vivax is playing pretty townie. Sweet. Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 18:30 Vivax wrote:
@ NSH
It's cause of a habit. I just tend to expect links in underlined words <_<.
Back to the topic:
##unvote strongandbig
Very informative post about marv there.
Wanted to vote Milton next but he posted.
He tries to make himself pretty transparent by posting his games. It's a good sign, but nothing decisive.
Speaking of meta, sciberbia doesn't look good based on that.I was with him in two games and I feel like he's being different in this one.
s0lstice already pointed out the missing fast posts we're used to see from scib at the start of the game.
That alone is forgivable given the posted reasons. But the overall gut feeling is still bad cause of the overall style. This is just... what? I don't even know what's going on the first half of this post. Anyways, he finds the person he's played with in the past and says "he's playing different from his meta! He's different!" Umm... how? That's how meta cases work, you find a discrepancy and then you post what said discrepancy is. Also latches onto s0lstice's point about scrib's posting instead of adding to the conversation. Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 01:49 Vivax wrote:On July 13 2012 01:39 DropBear wrote:
What do you mean by an informative post? Cos he made a case he must be town or something?
No, he doesn't have to be townie. But I initially voted for him cause he didn't post anything, then he posted the metagame info and I found it good enough to unvote him. I remember sciberbia for more concise, compact posts, and I remember him posting really early. He already explained why he didn't post early in this game, so what remains are the posts that subjectively look different to me. But I prefer to not rely heavily on meta, my play changes often aswell and I don't have as much experience. Anyway, I don't like Matt's filter, it looks like he posts rather meaningless content, no active scumhunting in it, rather commenting on what other players already said. He also acts a little differently than in LVI. More wishy washy "he's different but I'm not going to post anything specific" Continues with "his meta is different just look here!" (gives him an out if someone says well I read it and I'm not seeing anything wonky like you because Viv hasn't actually posted HOW matt is different) Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 03:11 Vivax wrote:Some from LVI: + Show Spoiler +On June 30 2012 14:59 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 14:23 casualman wrote:
I love to bandwagon. Being a newb, I can read nothing from these posts and will blindly trust in authority figures. Woohoo!
##Vote BroodKingEXE What the hell is this
##vote casualman On July 01 2012 15:46 Mattchew wrote:Adam, what do you make of this post. Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 14:23 casualman wrote:
I love to bandwagon. Being a newb, I can read nothing from these posts and will blindly trust in authority figures. Woohoo!
##Vote BroodKingEXE And I like your thoughts on Mandalor His tone is different. Just look at the posts this game. They discredit many opinions, but I can't recognize any active scumhunting coming from them. From this game: + Show Spoiler +On July 12 2012 22:39 Mattchew wrote:
Strong I feel like the entirety of your posts could easily be made by either town or scum, if this is you trying to establish your alignment you have done a poor job with me. Your post is longwinded and looks to explain your thought process, but we both know that 95% of your posts content has nothing to do with this game at all. Not only that but your early attempt at a read on marv does not even account for his other posts in the thread. And your reasoning for voting him from this game is too, extremely weak.
So... you grab an extremely specific post about matt bawking at someone making an extremely scummy post and say that b/c he's different now he's moving away from his meta? His meta is a general trend of how he usually plays, if you wanted to use that in a meta argument you'd have to find a post very similar to the one you quoted and make the link between games. For example, if a post in a similar vein was made in this thread and matt didn't do anything about it, THEN you would say he's playing against his meta. OR, if he made a post very similar to the one he made that game in this one you could point to that and say he's playing to his meta. That hasn't happened, there is no meta connection in those quotes you provided. Now you're misusing meta AND scumslip. What gives... Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 04:18 Vivax wrote:On July 13 2012 03:32 marvellosity wrote:
i.e. all the talk about meta is a way of contributing without actually contributing You got your answers about matt. You asked for meta information, not me. My arguments against matt weren't based primarily on meta like you are trying to put it. Also, good job on asking for information you think is not a contribution. If that's the information you want town to get, it's not hard to guess which team you are on. On July 13 2012 01:49 Vivax wrote:
Anyway, I don't like Matt's filter, it looks like he posts rather meaningless content, no active scumhunting in it, rather commenting on what other players already said.
He also acts a little differently than in LVI. Bold: The actual meta content regarding matt. It's interesting how you inflated such a sentence and go on calling it an inconsistency with my opinion regarding meta. I said I wouldn't base my reads heavily on meta. + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2012 01:49 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 01:39 DropBear wrote:
What do you mean by an informative post? Cos he made a case he must be town or something?
No, he doesn't have to be townie. But I initially voted for him cause he didn't post anything, then he posted the metagame info and I found it good enough to unvote him. I remember sciberbia for more concise, compact posts, and I remember him posting really early. He already explained why he didn't post early in this game, so what remains are the posts that subjectively look different to me. But I prefer to not rely heavily on meta, my play changes often aswell and I don't have as much experience.
Anyway, I don't like Matt's filter, it looks like he posts rather meaningless content, no active scumhunting in it, rather commenting on what other players already said. He also acts a little differently than in LVI. Marv, correctly imo, calls out Vivax on his horrible use of meta. Vivax replies with a horrible defense and a soft push on marv. Guess who soft pushes shit? Scum. Why? Because later on they can point to the soft-pushes, the soft-defenses and say "hey! I called him out long ago, that's why I'm joining this bandwaggon!" or "hey! I defended him here, see! I knew he was towny, damn..." after a town flip. Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 05:36 Vivax wrote:Risen wrote, some:time:ago:
Yes, this is going places. I like your thinking. I just like your style, my dude. You have my vote!
##vote: Vivax Yes this indeed was a wtf post. I stil don't get why someone votes me for voting someone else while inserting some contentless crap along with the vote. Him saying it's too early for anything + Show Spoiler + sucks. If you can't get reads, start some conversation, or vote for people playing passively and force them out. More to follow. More to follow....... ........ ..... .. . Where? Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 09:07 Vivax wrote:I'm not comfortable with a tali lynch. Comparing filters I found Miltonkrams filter to be fairly empty and he targetted the easy target. He posted 1. A list of his games to make himself available for a metacheck. 2. He comments on Talis plan being bad, and that being reason enough to be scummy. My impression of talis plan gone bad so far: It's a magnet for players with no/bad cases to have a reason to post something accusing. The downside is that it might have triggered policy discussion and a lot of chaos, while promising a lot of clarity by forcing players to take a hard stance, so talis plan was risky from a town perspective, and I'd leave it at that. He said it worked in bastard mafia, let's leave it at that: It won't be used here. 3. On July 13 2012 06:35 Miltonkram wrote:
I don't find the fact that he came up with the plan scummy, I find the amount of time he's spent defending himself from the fallout of his plan scummy. I think he's spent 3 or 4 posts just defending himself.
Defending oneself isn't scummy. If it's really the only thing you do, then yes, but Milton already knows that it's not the only thing tali is doing: On July 13 2012 06:48 Miltonkram wrote:
EBWOP: I didn't notice that talismania was actually putting a fair amount of pressure on austinmcc. I still find the amount of time he's spent talking about his proposal scummy, but he has put a small amount of pressure on players. still seems to firmly believe in a scum tali. He doesn't have any other reads. He comments on Keirathi and sciberbia being unreadable to him. I'll go for Milton if I don't see some arguments to his defense. Finally! We have a post with conviction! (Even if it IS coming after other people have already voiced suspicion of Milton) Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 21:51 Vivax wrote:Ok Milton, your defense is quite good. I suspected you for going with towns' sentiment regarding talis and getting an easy lynch target, and to be honest I still feel that the arguments against him aren't very strong. He's in a bad corner cause of his proposition, in page 2 of his filter he stopped talking about the plan, then started calling out people before he got forced into a defensive position again. + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2012 05:49 talismania wrote:Time to poke the hornet's nest again dropbear what's your response to this (below)? The way I see it, you made a post asking vivax some questions with some implied suspicion maybe. Then marv votes vivax and you eagerly hop on the wagon. When called out, you say you called him out for being suspicious the page earlier, but the only post you made in reference to him was just the one where you asked him questions. You never actually called him out for being suspicious as you said. Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 03:04 talismania wrote:if you mean this On July 13 2012 01:39 DropBear wrote:Vivax I am very confused as the reasoning behind your voting so far. Why did you choose strongandbig initially? On July 12 2012 18:30 Vivax wrote:
@ NSH
It's cause of a habit. I just tend to expect links in underlined words <_<.
Back to the topic:
##unvote strongandbig
Very informative post about marv there.
Wanted to vote Milton next but he posted.
He tries to make himself pretty transparent by posting his games. It's a good sign, but nothing decisive.
Speaking of meta, sciberbia doesn't look good based on that.I was with him in two games and I feel like he's being different in this one.
s0lstice already pointed out the missing fast posts we're used to see from scib at the start of the game.
That alone is forgivable given the posted reasons. But the overall gut feeling is still bad cause of the overall style. What do you mean by an informative post? Cos he made a case he must be town or something? What are the differences in sciberbia you talk about? then I don't see you calling him suspicious, but just asking him questions. Implied suspicion I'll give you, but not calling him out as being suspicious by any means. Also good to know you're just as angry as in bastard 2 :-) If there is something I detest, is when someone gets accused for defending himself, like you did, Milton. Defending yourself is playing to win, from each alignments perspective. It's only logical that a guy who has to counter endless arguments can't be actively scumhunting, but Talis posted his reads already on page 1 before people started accusing him so heavily: + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2012 00:43 talismania wrote:Reactions to talismania's Shitty Plan
(for those who care) + Show Spoiler +marvellosityOn July 12 2012 08:54 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote:
pardon me for some half-assed musing:
since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others). no next On July 12 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote:
naw, I'm not killing anyone based on one post right at the beginning of the game (especially as pregame was quite active/friendly, it spilled over)
I'd rather lynch talis for his never-ending bullshit on listing names and reasons.
Seriously, 24 hours into day 1 and we're supposed to come up with reasons on 3 different people for why they might be scum? It's just nonsense.
Or... wait for it... I have an idea! If someone says something a person finds scummy, they can call them out and bring it to the thread! Wow, marv, you say - an amazing plan!
People shouldn't be 'forced' to make effort, the making of the effort willingly is what helps gives us our reads on people. Predictably shits on it, suggests policy lynching me out of his annoyance that I keep proposing these dumb plans. gonzawOn July 12 2012 09:36 gonzaw wrote:So, if the lynch was right now I'd want to kill one of these 3 guys: Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 07:56 Risen wrote:
Welcome to ICBINTMM in which Risen does not post in caps or call anyone an idiot THE ENTIRE GAME. Stay tuned to see if this actually happens...... Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 07:33 strongandbig wrote:
sup bros
i am currently watching Le Closer in french in my hotel room.
Scum y'all best get ready to get motherfucking interrogated Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 06:33 Mattchew wrote:
alight lets do this.
no zentor means no policy lynch based on names for me. You can see the recurring theme in all 3 (just 1 post, promising something/appearing they are eager to start but not doing anything else later). marv, talismania, anybody active, what do you think about these guys? If you had to kill one of them which one would you choose and why? (if you don't want to kill anyone then say so). Also this guy could die too: Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:05 austinmcc wrote:
Screw the number and size of posts. I'm not a scientist, but it looks like talismania's been town --> scum --> town --> scum --> town. Therefore, he's scum this game.
I know that millers are supposed to claim D1, but I don't see why we'd want claims on other roles right now. Except from marv, who needs to let us know whether he's a vigi or scum this game, since those are the only roles that he rolls. But at least he put a little bit more effort (although that's not town-telling) Dropbear and Milton haven't even posted, but well we can't do anything about it. Actually follows the plan - as I said seems rather townie. Especially the timing. MattchewOn July 12 2012 10:46 Mattchew wrote:
Also, talis has the worst plan ever with his 3 people thing. That just allows people to half ass push some stupid reads and then connections theories run wild and everything turns to shit shits on it solsticeOn July 12 2012 11:04 s0Lstice wrote:
Keirathi, assuming you are still around...
why so verbose about lurkers? what do you think of talismania's plan? I actually don't see him reacting to it at all yet he asks keirathi about it. Interesting. He did react to gonzaw's post reacting to mine. austinmccOn July 12 2012 11:33 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 11:06 Mattchew wrote:
Anyway I want to hear more from austin his first post doesnt sit well with me That's because there's basically nothing to my first post except "Millers claim," which isn't helpful. What I can add is that I think talismania's 3-case plan is bad, but that seems to be the general sentiment. Forcing arbitrary requirements on everyone isn't really going to help us, and is going to clog up the thread later. People are going to make halfhearted cases to try to reach that number, someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion, and we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning. Can also add that I haven't played with gonzaw, but I've obsed his recent games. Anyone here feel like they do a good job reading him, and if so, can you post some tips? I've found that I almost always end up reading him as scum, because he is active enough and posts enough that I keep finding scummy things to latch on to. Had him scum at the end of liar game just prior to the katina lynch, but also found him really scummy in the recent MTG because I felt like some of the plans he pushed hard were anti-town (check the obsqt early on, although I didn't post much there). So...any magical tricks for getting the right read on Gonzaw? Actually this reads scummy again on the second go-round too. He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all. KeirathiOn July 12 2012 11:54 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 11:04 s0Lstice wrote:
Keirathi, assuming you are still around...
why so verbose about lurkers? what do you think of talismania's plan? Sorry was getting dinner. I was verbose because I have some shared experience with sciberbia, whom I was replying to. I know that most (all?) of his TL mafia experience was in newbie games, and the dynamic is just different when you can assume that people know how to play the game. As far as talismania's plan, I feel like it makes it too easy for mafia to blend in. The more townies you have making arguments against other townies, the easier you can push mislynches and not have to take any blame for them. There are other things wrong with it, but Mattchew and austin beat me to it. No need rehashing what they said. Mmm I think this is innocuous. He might not even have responded if he hadn't been asked to. DropBearOn July 12 2012 15:18 DropBear wrote:This is silly. Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote:
pardon me for some half-assed musing:
since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others). This isn't going to happen and would just waste time.
On the majority lynch, day 1 this tends to be a right kerfuffle. I can't think of any system that has ever worked on day 1 in games I have been part of. So fuck a system, we deal with it when the time comes. There should be solid candidates by then anyway. Actually this doesn't sit that well with me at all. Conversation had started to move on and then he brings it back to my plan and says the same shit everyone else did. I also don't like his misrepresentation of my views on the roleblocker's use of their power. strongandbigOn July 12 2012 16:51 strongandbig wrote:Hey bros For people who weren't in ssb or mtg mafias, just wanted to let you guys know I am currently in Europe, where I don't have a cell phone data plan. This means I can only post when I have wifi, which is a change from my normal method. I've also been busy at work so please don't expect much from me before 8pm CET.
Now for serious stuff: I'm going to be watching marv like a motherfuking hawk. I think hosts tend to try to "balance" games sometimes by tweaking their scum team selection; however, that can and has led to extra info from town through balance speculation. Marvellosity makes an extremely tempting player for hosts to do this kind of balancing, because his scum play is empirically very good, but he isn't a "veteran" so he's not likely to be the subject of balance speculation. I also suspect bugs of doing this kind of balancing. + Show Spoiler [reasons, from wheel of fortune.] +The last of his c++ games I played in was wheel of fortune. That was a stacked game and I was one of the worst players in it, although I did eventually manage to figure out the scum team (and got shot for having correct reads before I could push some of them). With the benefit of hindsight, that scum team looks almost perfectly balanced for the player base. Radfield was town, ace was scum. VE and Forumite were both good players, but only on the edge of being full-on vets. I firmly believe that town would have won that game if Radfield hadn't decided to use a DT check on Ace, who was godfather. That kind of closeness is the sign of a well-balanced game; and the odds that both town and scum would have their best player as their best power role are very small from pure chance. So what does this mean? I am NOT proposing to policy lynch marvellosity; if he's town he can be a great asset, and besides that's totally against the spirit of the game. What I AM saying is that I think when someone points out something scummy he does, we should take it pretty seriously. Pure chance wouldn't explain why he has rolled scum in something like half his games since our first game together (noob 6) while I have rolled it once - him being good and me not does explain that.
NOW: having told you why you should pay attention, I'm going to point out something scummy marv has done. That thing is: propose/say he would be okay with lynching Talismania. Talismania's plan IS anti town. When Ace is host and he tells an obs QT how good a plan is for scum, you better believe he knows what he's talking about. Systematic case proposing plans give scum an excuse to make shitty reads and blend in, because everyone is making shitty cases and dumb reads. That kind of plan dilutes good information and adds bad information. HOWEVER: Talismania proposes this plan as town. All the time. Like, every game. Usually "pushing scummy plans" is a decent scum tell; but this specific player pushing this specific plan is not. And Marvellosity should know this. Marv has obs'd at least two games where Talismania proposed this plan or a variation of it (ssb, bangbang). Tali has proposed this in other games. Marv is the kind of player who pays attention; he should also know that I've pushed tali hard for these plans in the past, as have others. Marv putting tali forward as his first lynch candidates comes down to an easy push on an easy target for reasons he should know are bad. Marv, I'm watching you.+ Show Spoiler [on Talismania, briefly] + I'm not saying tali is an easy target in general, like kenpachi or grush would be. He's not that kind of shitty player slash bad case magnet. It's just that for marv to propose him for lynch based on that plan is scummy. He's right about me always pushing this idea althoguh I think he's overreacting to marv's reaction. So actually not that many people commented on it even though I thought like everyone did oops. My views: scummy responses: austinmcc, dropbear null responses: marv, mattchew, keirathi, strongandbig townie response: gonzaw did not respond directly although was in the thread: Risen, sciberbia, solstice I sure see the effort to post reads and clear stances here. The responses to his plan have quite some potential. Cause I think your arguments made against talis are inflated and not good, I can't believe you to be town yet. In fact, I may not be able to debunk your case against talis, but I still have an overall bad impression of you, Milton. Another thing in your disfavor: Your defense from s0lstices points is actually an attack. You don't seem to have pushed back his arguments regarding you, you rather tried to discredit him for inconsistence regarding meta, that's a pretty OMGUS/scummy type of defense imo. I'll post more about Keirathi and Dropbear soon, they offer quite interesting connections. Gonna try to interprete Dropbears mistake and draw conclusions. Oh... jk... convictions gone. Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 22:32 Vivax wrote:
For once I'll agree with you marv. Using self-presented behavior as argumentation is not reliable. Inconsistencies between arguments and intentions are much better for scumhunting.
Miltons intentions and arguments are :
1. Lynch talis based on (imo) weak arguments. At least too weak to draw such a quick decision about the lynch target. To me it just looks like Milton's trying to pick a target to blend in and call it a day, while defending himself like he does in point 2.
2. Defend from s0lstice using arguments not designed to defend oneself, but to attack s0lstice. That's also the inconsistency. If you think s0lstice is playing scummy, make a case against him. But don't point out things you find scummy and expect that to be your defense against that players' arguments. Ermm... ok? Nothing really to go on here since he's just confirming what marv has said and not actually offering anything of his own. See a common thread here? Viv isn't actually DOING anything. Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 01:18 Vivax wrote:
Wtf is all this talk about C9. Looks like a nice distraction from scumhunting.
What do you think of the points I've made against Milton? And as opposed to him (cause Milton accuses him), what do you think of Talismania? Well, I guess Milton is his top scumread still. Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 03:14 Vivax wrote:Thanks for reminding me, gonzaw. I'll start with an exquisite collection of quotes from various filters: Starting with My top scumread, Risen+ Show Spoiler +On July 12 2012 10:38 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 10:34 gonzaw wrote:On July 12 2012 10:00 gonzaw wrote:On July 12 2012 09:49 Risen wrote:
Any particular reason you're trying to push something on people with a low post count in thread so early? Didn't even know lurking was possible at this point. So you're either an extremely eager townie or scum looking for easy targets to push early. Thank you captain obvious. Instead of posting tautologies, do you have an opinion on said subject? (i.e do you think I'm extremely eager townie or do you think I'm scum looking for easy targets to push?) In hindsight this came out more aggressive than I meant it :/ It's cool. It's nothing compared to what I handled from igrok my last game. Anywho, I was just pointing out I found it odd you would try and push people onto "lurkers" so early on. I don't think anything about you. There's nothing to go on right now. I don't think that post was in your favor, though. Written in 8th page of the game, when there was a fair bit of discussion already going on. He just tried to not attack gonzaw after trying to discredit gonz's previous post, enemies are bad for scum players. + Show Spoiler +On July 12 2012 15:18 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 15:14 sciberbia wrote:
@keirathi, @Dropbear, @Risen
Do you guys have any suspicions yet? Maybe you could comment on my post about risen/marv or about gonzaw's accusations of risen/strongandbig/Mattchew? This thread is too quiet for my liking -- please share some of your thoughts. I think it's too early for anything. I don't really like to make reads without any connections (this might be a bad thing to do). I just think it's easier for me to make cases when I consider people as members of a team, not as individual scum members. More apologies for not doing anything in the 9th page of the game. + Show Spoiler +On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote:
EBWOP: He could also just be a townie doing pro-town things. This is the most likely option. He wrote this about....Drooopbear.When? After writing this: + Show Spoiler +On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote:
For example: this could be DropBear bussing/giving his teammate a way to backtrack on his plan or it could be scum calling out a townie. I'm not saying I even have a scumread on drop as he seems to want a pro-town environment, which is something I'm all for, but this is something that could be used to confirm a connection in my mind at a later point in time. We have a scumslip, gentlemen. It's obviously normal that you first list the scum options for a player when your actual opinion of him is that he's town. This is an argument-intention inconsistency I spoke about before. It wouldn't happen to a townie intending to conclude with his belief that the player is actually town. He actually noticed it too late, adding the town option in the following post.
##Unvote
##Vote Risen
Lol, jk! His case against me revolves around "buddying" gonzaw very, very, very early in the game and he calls my consistency in not wanting to make reads too early bad. Oh, and then there's my "scumslip" he harps on, but it's not really a scumslip... It's a psych 101 case... or something. Anyways, I've responded to his more recent posts, and I think he's scum. Nothing much else to it... I don't find anyone else in this game nearly as scummy, my vote will be staying on vivax.
Seriously? No one is going to respond to this? Viv made a very weak defense that was shot down by me and NOONE ELSE comments on that? You're all saying oh well hmm... I'm still leaning townie on him. WHY?!?!
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
On July 14 2012 05:41 Risen wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 14 2012 04:57 Risen wrote:Vivax: A study on why some people should just quit while they're ahead. Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 07:36 Vivax wrote:
I like gonzaws idea for the miller, but not for the masons. The masons should stay secret to pull off team stunts. Alright, good opener. Nothing too useful, but he's giving his opinion on the miller/mason claim. Better than lurking! Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 16:29 Vivax wrote:
There's no link to a voting thread in the OP methinks.Add pls?
##Vote active lurk strongandbig His very next post. How can you be an active lurker so early into the game? I initially thought this post was just something to get strongandbig posting. I, however, hate when people do things like this without at least a little solid reasoning. Pressuring people is fine, I do it (or at least I try to) and I'm not worried about that, but I dislike how this is just a single one-line vote following absolutely nothing. Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 17:21 Vivax wrote:
##unvote strongandbig
##Vote Miltonkram
Well you said you were watching something on tv yesterday and would start calling out scum soon, so I thought you were monitoring the game.
Anyway, that was a pretty informative post about marv, you have my seal of approval for unlurking.
Now I wanna see something from Milton :p. Gives credence to the possibility that he's just pressuring people into posting by using his vote as a means. Perfectly fine, and I support this pressure because it's not just "##unvote ##vote miltonb/clurk"... it's milton said he was going to lurk a little but lets add a little fire under his bum for added motivation. At this point I'm thinking, oh yeah vivax is playing pretty townie. Sweet. Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 18:30 Vivax wrote:
@ NSH
It's cause of a habit. I just tend to expect links in underlined words <_<.
Back to the topic:
##unvote strongandbig
Very informative post about marv there.
Wanted to vote Milton next but he posted.
He tries to make himself pretty transparent by posting his games. It's a good sign, but nothing decisive.
Speaking of meta, sciberbia doesn't look good based on that.I was with him in two games and I feel like he's being different in this one.
s0lstice already pointed out the missing fast posts we're used to see from scib at the start of the game.
That alone is forgivable given the posted reasons. But the overall gut feeling is still bad cause of the overall style. This is just... what? I don't even know what's going on the first half of this post. Anyways, he finds the person he's played with in the past and says "he's playing different from his meta! He's different!" Umm... how? That's how meta cases work, you find a discrepancy and then you post what said discrepancy is. Also latches onto s0lstice's point about scrib's posting instead of adding to the conversation. Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 01:49 Vivax wrote:On July 13 2012 01:39 DropBear wrote:
What do you mean by an informative post? Cos he made a case he must be town or something?
No, he doesn't have to be townie. But I initially voted for him cause he didn't post anything, then he posted the metagame info and I found it good enough to unvote him. I remember sciberbia for more concise, compact posts, and I remember him posting really early. He already explained why he didn't post early in this game, so what remains are the posts that subjectively look different to me. But I prefer to not rely heavily on meta, my play changes often aswell and I don't have as much experience. Anyway, I don't like Matt's filter, it looks like he posts rather meaningless content, no active scumhunting in it, rather commenting on what other players already said. He also acts a little differently than in LVI. More wishy washy "he's different but I'm not going to post anything specific" Continues with "his meta is different just look here!" (gives him an out if someone says well I read it and I'm not seeing anything wonky like you because Viv hasn't actually posted HOW matt is different) Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 03:11 Vivax wrote:Some from LVI: + Show Spoiler +On June 30 2012 14:59 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 14:23 casualman wrote:
I love to bandwagon. Being a newb, I can read nothing from these posts and will blindly trust in authority figures. Woohoo!
##Vote BroodKingEXE What the hell is this
##vote casualman On July 01 2012 15:46 Mattchew wrote:Adam, what do you make of this post. Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 14:23 casualman wrote:
I love to bandwagon. Being a newb, I can read nothing from these posts and will blindly trust in authority figures. Woohoo!
##Vote BroodKingEXE And I like your thoughts on Mandalor His tone is different. Just look at the posts this game. They discredit many opinions, but I can't recognize any active scumhunting coming from them. From this game: + Show Spoiler +On July 12 2012 22:39 Mattchew wrote:
Strong I feel like the entirety of your posts could easily be made by either town or scum, if this is you trying to establish your alignment you have done a poor job with me. Your post is longwinded and looks to explain your thought process, but we both know that 95% of your posts content has nothing to do with this game at all. Not only that but your early attempt at a read on marv does not even account for his other posts in the thread. And your reasoning for voting him from this game is too, extremely weak.
So... you grab an extremely specific post about matt bawking at someone making an extremely scummy post and say that b/c he's different now he's moving away from his meta? His meta is a general trend of how he usually plays, if you wanted to use that in a meta argument you'd have to find a post very similar to the one you quoted and make the link between games. For example, if a post in a similar vein was made in this thread and matt didn't do anything about it, THEN you would say he's playing against his meta. OR, if he made a post very similar to the one he made that game in this one you could point to that and say he's playing to his meta. That hasn't happened, there is no meta connection in those quotes you provided. Now you're misusing meta AND scumslip. What gives... Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 04:18 Vivax wrote:On July 13 2012 03:32 marvellosity wrote:
i.e. all the talk about meta is a way of contributing without actually contributing You got your answers about matt. You asked for meta information, not me. My arguments against matt weren't based primarily on meta like you are trying to put it. Also, good job on asking for information you think is not a contribution. If that's the information you want town to get, it's not hard to guess which team you are on. On July 13 2012 01:49 Vivax wrote:
Anyway, I don't like Matt's filter, it looks like he posts rather meaningless content, no active scumhunting in it, rather commenting on what other players already said.
He also acts a little differently than in LVI. Bold: The actual meta content regarding matt. It's interesting how you inflated such a sentence and go on calling it an inconsistency with my opinion regarding meta. I said I wouldn't base my reads heavily on meta. + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2012 01:49 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 01:39 DropBear wrote:
What do you mean by an informative post? Cos he made a case he must be town or something?
No, he doesn't have to be townie. But I initially voted for him cause he didn't post anything, then he posted the metagame info and I found it good enough to unvote him. I remember sciberbia for more concise, compact posts, and I remember him posting really early. He already explained why he didn't post early in this game, so what remains are the posts that subjectively look different to me. But I prefer to not rely heavily on meta, my play changes often aswell and I don't have as much experience.
Anyway, I don't like Matt's filter, it looks like he posts rather meaningless content, no active scumhunting in it, rather commenting on what other players already said. He also acts a little differently than in LVI. Marv, correctly imo, calls out Vivax on his horrible use of meta. Vivax replies with a horrible defense and a soft push on marv. Guess who soft pushes shit? Scum. Why? Because later on they can point to the soft-pushes, the soft-defenses and say "hey! I called him out long ago, that's why I'm joining this bandwaggon!" or "hey! I defended him here, see! I knew he was towny, damn..." after a town flip. Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 05:36 Vivax wrote:Risen wrote, some:time:ago:
Yes, this is going places. I like your thinking. I just like your style, my dude. You have my vote!
##vote: Vivax Yes this indeed was a wtf post. I stil don't get why someone votes me for voting someone else while inserting some contentless crap along with the vote. Him saying it's too early for anything + Show Spoiler + sucks. If you can't get reads, start some conversation, or vote for people playing passively and force them out. More to follow. More to follow....... ........ ..... .. . Where? Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 09:07 Vivax wrote:I'm not comfortable with a tali lynch. Comparing filters I found Miltonkrams filter to be fairly empty and he targetted the easy target. He posted 1. A list of his games to make himself available for a metacheck. 2. He comments on Talis plan being bad, and that being reason enough to be scummy. My impression of talis plan gone bad so far: It's a magnet for players with no/bad cases to have a reason to post something accusing. The downside is that it might have triggered policy discussion and a lot of chaos, while promising a lot of clarity by forcing players to take a hard stance, so talis plan was risky from a town perspective, and I'd leave it at that. He said it worked in bastard mafia, let's leave it at that: It won't be used here. 3. On July 13 2012 06:35 Miltonkram wrote:
I don't find the fact that he came up with the plan scummy, I find the amount of time he's spent defending himself from the fallout of his plan scummy. I think he's spent 3 or 4 posts just defending himself.
Defending oneself isn't scummy. If it's really the only thing you do, then yes, but Milton already knows that it's not the only thing tali is doing: On July 13 2012 06:48 Miltonkram wrote:
EBWOP: I didn't notice that talismania was actually putting a fair amount of pressure on austinmcc. I still find the amount of time he's spent talking about his proposal scummy, but he has put a small amount of pressure on players. still seems to firmly believe in a scum tali. He doesn't have any other reads. He comments on Keirathi and sciberbia being unreadable to him. I'll go for Milton if I don't see some arguments to his defense. Finally! We have a post with conviction! (Even if it IS coming after other people have already voiced suspicion of Milton) Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 21:51 Vivax wrote:Ok Milton, your defense is quite good. I suspected you for going with towns' sentiment regarding talis and getting an easy lynch target, and to be honest I still feel that the arguments against him aren't very strong. He's in a bad corner cause of his proposition, in page 2 of his filter he stopped talking about the plan, then started calling out people before he got forced into a defensive position again. + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2012 05:49 talismania wrote:Time to poke the hornet's nest again dropbear what's your response to this (below)? The way I see it, you made a post asking vivax some questions with some implied suspicion maybe. Then marv votes vivax and you eagerly hop on the wagon. When called out, you say you called him out for being suspicious the page earlier, but the only post you made in reference to him was just the one where you asked him questions. You never actually called him out for being suspicious as you said. Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 03:04 talismania wrote:if you mean this On July 13 2012 01:39 DropBear wrote:Vivax I am very confused as the reasoning behind your voting so far. Why did you choose strongandbig initially? On July 12 2012 18:30 Vivax wrote:
@ NSH
It's cause of a habit. I just tend to expect links in underlined words <_<.
Back to the topic:
##unvote strongandbig
Very informative post about marv there.
Wanted to vote Milton next but he posted.
He tries to make himself pretty transparent by posting his games. It's a good sign, but nothing decisive.
Speaking of meta, sciberbia doesn't look good based on that.I was with him in two games and I feel like he's being different in this one.
s0lstice already pointed out the missing fast posts we're used to see from scib at the start of the game.
That alone is forgivable given the posted reasons. But the overall gut feeling is still bad cause of the overall style. What do you mean by an informative post? Cos he made a case he must be town or something? What are the differences in sciberbia you talk about? then I don't see you calling him suspicious, but just asking him questions. Implied suspicion I'll give you, but not calling him out as being suspicious by any means. Also good to know you're just as angry as in bastard 2 :-) If there is something I detest, is when someone gets accused for defending himself, like you did, Milton. Defending yourself is playing to win, from each alignments perspective. It's only logical that a guy who has to counter endless arguments can't be actively scumhunting, but Talis posted his reads already on page 1 before people started accusing him so heavily: + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2012 00:43 talismania wrote:Reactions to talismania's Shitty Plan
(for those who care) + Show Spoiler +marvellosityOn July 12 2012 08:54 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote:
pardon me for some half-assed musing:
since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others). no next On July 12 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote:
naw, I'm not killing anyone based on one post right at the beginning of the game (especially as pregame was quite active/friendly, it spilled over)
I'd rather lynch talis for his never-ending bullshit on listing names and reasons.
Seriously, 24 hours into day 1 and we're supposed to come up with reasons on 3 different people for why they might be scum? It's just nonsense.
Or... wait for it... I have an idea! If someone says something a person finds scummy, they can call them out and bring it to the thread! Wow, marv, you say - an amazing plan!
People shouldn't be 'forced' to make effort, the making of the effort willingly is what helps gives us our reads on people. Predictably shits on it, suggests policy lynching me out of his annoyance that I keep proposing these dumb plans. gonzawOn July 12 2012 09:36 gonzaw wrote:So, if the lynch was right now I'd want to kill one of these 3 guys: Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 07:56 Risen wrote:
Welcome to ICBINTMM in which Risen does not post in caps or call anyone an idiot THE ENTIRE GAME. Stay tuned to see if this actually happens...... Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 07:33 strongandbig wrote:
sup bros
i am currently watching Le Closer in french in my hotel room.
Scum y'all best get ready to get motherfucking interrogated Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 06:33 Mattchew wrote:
alight lets do this.
no zentor means no policy lynch based on names for me. You can see the recurring theme in all 3 (just 1 post, promising something/appearing they are eager to start but not doing anything else later). marv, talismania, anybody active, what do you think about these guys? If you had to kill one of them which one would you choose and why? (if you don't want to kill anyone then say so). Also this guy could die too: Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:05 austinmcc wrote:
Screw the number and size of posts. I'm not a scientist, but it looks like talismania's been town --> scum --> town --> scum --> town. Therefore, he's scum this game.
I know that millers are supposed to claim D1, but I don't see why we'd want claims on other roles right now. Except from marv, who needs to let us know whether he's a vigi or scum this game, since those are the only roles that he rolls. But at least he put a little bit more effort (although that's not town-telling) Dropbear and Milton haven't even posted, but well we can't do anything about it. Actually follows the plan - as I said seems rather townie. Especially the timing. MattchewOn July 12 2012 10:46 Mattchew wrote:
Also, talis has the worst plan ever with his 3 people thing. That just allows people to half ass push some stupid reads and then connections theories run wild and everything turns to shit shits on it solsticeOn July 12 2012 11:04 s0Lstice wrote:
Keirathi, assuming you are still around...
why so verbose about lurkers? what do you think of talismania's plan? I actually don't see him reacting to it at all yet he asks keirathi about it. Interesting. He did react to gonzaw's post reacting to mine. austinmccOn July 12 2012 11:33 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 11:06 Mattchew wrote:
Anyway I want to hear more from austin his first post doesnt sit well with me That's because there's basically nothing to my first post except "Millers claim," which isn't helpful. What I can add is that I think talismania's 3-case plan is bad, but that seems to be the general sentiment. Forcing arbitrary requirements on everyone isn't really going to help us, and is going to clog up the thread later. People are going to make halfhearted cases to try to reach that number, someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion, and we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning. Can also add that I haven't played with gonzaw, but I've obsed his recent games. Anyone here feel like they do a good job reading him, and if so, can you post some tips? I've found that I almost always end up reading him as scum, because he is active enough and posts enough that I keep finding scummy things to latch on to. Had him scum at the end of liar game just prior to the katina lynch, but also found him really scummy in the recent MTG because I felt like some of the plans he pushed hard were anti-town (check the obsqt early on, although I didn't post much there). So...any magical tricks for getting the right read on Gonzaw? Actually this reads scummy again on the second go-round too. He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all. KeirathiOn July 12 2012 11:54 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 11:04 s0Lstice wrote:
Keirathi, assuming you are still around...
why so verbose about lurkers? what do you think of talismania's plan? Sorry was getting dinner. I was verbose because I have some shared experience with sciberbia, whom I was replying to. I know that most (all?) of his TL mafia experience was in newbie games, and the dynamic is just different when you can assume that people know how to play the game. As far as talismania's plan, I feel like it makes it too easy for mafia to blend in. The more townies you have making arguments against other townies, the easier you can push mislynches and not have to take any blame for them. There are other things wrong with it, but Mattchew and austin beat me to it. No need rehashing what they said. Mmm I think this is innocuous. He might not even have responded if he hadn't been asked to. DropBearOn July 12 2012 15:18 DropBear wrote:This is silly. Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote:
pardon me for some half-assed musing:
since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others). This isn't going to happen and would just waste time.
On the majority lynch, day 1 this tends to be a right kerfuffle. I can't think of any system that has ever worked on day 1 in games I have been part of. So fuck a system, we deal with it when the time comes. There should be solid candidates by then anyway. Actually this doesn't sit that well with me at all. Conversation had started to move on and then he brings it back to my plan and says the same shit everyone else did. I also don't like his misrepresentation of my views on the roleblocker's use of their power. strongandbigOn July 12 2012 16:51 strongandbig wrote:Hey bros For people who weren't in ssb or mtg mafias, just wanted to let you guys know I am currently in Europe, where I don't have a cell phone data plan. This means I can only post when I have wifi, which is a change from my normal method. I've also been busy at work so please don't expect much from me before 8pm CET.
Now for serious stuff: I'm going to be watching marv like a motherfuking hawk. I think hosts tend to try to "balance" games sometimes by tweaking their scum team selection; however, that can and has led to extra info from town through balance speculation. Marvellosity makes an extremely tempting player for hosts to do this kind of balancing, because his scum play is empirically very good, but he isn't a "veteran" so he's not likely to be the subject of balance speculation. I also suspect bugs of doing this kind of balancing. + Show Spoiler [reasons, from wheel of fortune.] +The last of his c++ games I played in was wheel of fortune. That was a stacked game and I was one of the worst players in it, although I did eventually manage to figure out the scum team (and got shot for having correct reads before I could push some of them). With the benefit of hindsight, that scum team looks almost perfectly balanced for the player base. Radfield was town, ace was scum. VE and Forumite were both good players, but only on the edge of being full-on vets. I firmly believe that town would have won that game if Radfield hadn't decided to use a DT check on Ace, who was godfather. That kind of closeness is the sign of a well-balanced game; and the odds that both town and scum would have their best player as their best power role are very small from pure chance. So what does this mean? I am NOT proposing to policy lynch marvellosity; if he's town he can be a great asset, and besides that's totally against the spirit of the game. What I AM saying is that I think when someone points out something scummy he does, we should take it pretty seriously. Pure chance wouldn't explain why he has rolled scum in something like half his games since our first game together (noob 6) while I have rolled it once - him being good and me not does explain that.
NOW: having told you why you should pay attention, I'm going to point out something scummy marv has done. That thing is: propose/say he would be okay with lynching Talismania. Talismania's plan IS anti town. When Ace is host and he tells an obs QT how good a plan is for scum, you better believe he knows what he's talking about. Systematic case proposing plans give scum an excuse to make shitty reads and blend in, because everyone is making shitty cases and dumb reads. That kind of plan dilutes good information and adds bad information. HOWEVER: Talismania proposes this plan as town. All the time. Like, every game. Usually "pushing scummy plans" is a decent scum tell; but this specific player pushing this specific plan is not. And Marvellosity should know this. Marv has obs'd at least two games where Talismania proposed this plan or a variation of it (ssb, bangbang). Tali has proposed this in other games. Marv is the kind of player who pays attention; he should also know that I've pushed tali hard for these plans in the past, as have others. Marv putting tali forward as his first lynch candidates comes down to an easy push on an easy target for reasons he should know are bad. Marv, I'm watching you.+ Show Spoiler [on Talismania, briefly] + I'm not saying tali is an easy target in general, like kenpachi or grush would be. He's not that kind of shitty player slash bad case magnet. It's just that for marv to propose him for lynch based on that plan is scummy. He's right about me always pushing this idea althoguh I think he's overreacting to marv's reaction. So actually not that many people commented on it even though I thought like everyone did oops. My views: scummy responses: austinmcc, dropbear null responses: marv, mattchew, keirathi, strongandbig townie response: gonzaw did not respond directly although was in the thread: Risen, sciberbia, solstice I sure see the effort to post reads and clear stances here. The responses to his plan have quite some potential. Cause I think your arguments made against talis are inflated and not good, I can't believe you to be town yet. In fact, I may not be able to debunk your case against talis, but I still have an overall bad impression of you, Milton. Another thing in your disfavor: Your defense from s0lstices points is actually an attack. You don't seem to have pushed back his arguments regarding you, you rather tried to discredit him for inconsistence regarding meta, that's a pretty OMGUS/scummy type of defense imo. I'll post more about Keirathi and Dropbear soon, they offer quite interesting connections. Gonna try to interprete Dropbears mistake and draw conclusions. Oh... jk... convictions gone. Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 22:32 Vivax wrote:
For once I'll agree with you marv. Using self-presented behavior as argumentation is not reliable. Inconsistencies between arguments and intentions are much better for scumhunting.
Miltons intentions and arguments are :
1. Lynch talis based on (imo) weak arguments. At least too weak to draw such a quick decision about the lynch target. To me it just looks like Milton's trying to pick a target to blend in and call it a day, while defending himself like he does in point 2.
2. Defend from s0lstice using arguments not designed to defend oneself, but to attack s0lstice. That's also the inconsistency. If you think s0lstice is playing scummy, make a case against him. But don't point out things you find scummy and expect that to be your defense against that players' arguments. Ermm... ok? Nothing really to go on here since he's just confirming what marv has said and not actually offering anything of his own. See a common thread here? Viv isn't actually DOING anything. Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 01:18 Vivax wrote:
Wtf is all this talk about C9. Looks like a nice distraction from scumhunting.
What do you think of the points I've made against Milton? And as opposed to him (cause Milton accuses him), what do you think of Talismania? Well, I guess Milton is his top scumread still. Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 03:14 Vivax wrote:Thanks for reminding me, gonzaw. I'll start with an exquisite collection of quotes from various filters: Starting with My top scumread, Risen+ Show Spoiler +On July 12 2012 10:38 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 10:34 gonzaw wrote:On July 12 2012 10:00 gonzaw wrote:On July 12 2012 09:49 Risen wrote:
Any particular reason you're trying to push something on people with a low post count in thread so early? Didn't even know lurking was possible at this point. So you're either an extremely eager townie or scum looking for easy targets to push early. Thank you captain obvious. Instead of posting tautologies, do you have an opinion on said subject? (i.e do you think I'm extremely eager townie or do you think I'm scum looking for easy targets to push?) In hindsight this came out more aggressive than I meant it :/ It's cool. It's nothing compared to what I handled from igrok my last game. Anywho, I was just pointing out I found it odd you would try and push people onto "lurkers" so early on. I don't think anything about you. There's nothing to go on right now. I don't think that post was in your favor, though. Written in 8th page of the game, when there was a fair bit of discussion already going on. He just tried to not attack gonzaw after trying to discredit gonz's previous post, enemies are bad for scum players. + Show Spoiler +On July 12 2012 15:18 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 15:14 sciberbia wrote:
@keirathi, @Dropbear, @Risen
Do you guys have any suspicions yet? Maybe you could comment on my post about risen/marv or about gonzaw's accusations of risen/strongandbig/Mattchew? This thread is too quiet for my liking -- please share some of your thoughts. I think it's too early for anything. I don't really like to make reads without any connections (this might be a bad thing to do). I just think it's easier for me to make cases when I consider people as members of a team, not as individual scum members. More apologies for not doing anything in the 9th page of the game. + Show Spoiler +On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote:
EBWOP: He could also just be a townie doing pro-town things. This is the most likely option. He wrote this about....Drooopbear.When? After writing this: + Show Spoiler +On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote:
For example: this could be DropBear bussing/giving his teammate a way to backtrack on his plan or it could be scum calling out a townie. I'm not saying I even have a scumread on drop as he seems to want a pro-town environment, which is something I'm all for, but this is something that could be used to confirm a connection in my mind at a later point in time. We have a scumslip, gentlemen. It's obviously normal that you first list the scum options for a player when your actual opinion of him is that he's town. This is an argument-intention inconsistency I spoke about before. It wouldn't happen to a townie intending to conclude with his belief that the player is actually town. He actually noticed it too late, adding the town option in the following post.
##Unvote
##Vote Risen
Lol, jk! His case against me revolves around "buddying" gonzaw very, very, very early in the game and he calls my consistency in not wanting to make reads too early bad. Oh, and then there's my "scumslip" he harps on, but it's not really a scumslip... It's a psych 101 case... or something. Anyways, I've responded to his more recent posts, and I think he's scum. Nothing much else to it... I don't find anyone else in this game nearly as scummy, my vote will be staying on vivax. Seriously? No one is going to respond to this? Viv made a very weak defense that was shot down by me and NOONE ELSE comments on that? You're all saying oh well hmm... I'm still leaning townie on him. WHY?!?!
I answered already and it's not my fault you can't fucking read.
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I'm convinces at this point two of viv/s0L/marv/austin have to be scum... This is so circlejerky it hurts... it's literally flooding the thread to defend vivax.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
Did you even bother reading what I linked and comparing?
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On July 14 2012 05:21 marvellosity wrote:I'm not sure I can get behind a Vivax lynch. His scum filter from Newbie XVI is here where he lurked and summarised stuff. Here he is active and pushing stuff, even if he's doing it badly.
This is your response to my case? Really? Town marv doesn't completely avoid answering anything I raised in my case by sidestepping it and posting a "meta-read"
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Not only that, but a meta read from a NEWBIE game. I didn't even know you could HAVE an established meta until you had a few games as scum and a few games as town under your belt.
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Hey marv wanna see something funny?
On July 14 2012 05:21 marvellosity wrote:I'm not sure I can get behind a Vivax lynch. His scum filter from Newbie XVI is here where he lurked and summarised stuff. Here he is active and pushing stuff, even if he's doing it badly.
On July 13 2012 03:32 marvellosity wrote:
i.e. all the talk about meta is a way of contributing without actually contributing
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
From what I know of town Vivax: makes stupid connection cases, bad logical leaps, active and try hard
From what I know of scum Vivax: lurky and summarises a lot of stuff. yes it's only one game that's what i got
I'm seeing more of scenario 1 at the moment
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
hey you wanna see something funny? All my thoughts in my filter of stuff that's gone on this game.
See the difference? Or just trying to make some dumbass point like usual?
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On July 14 2012 05:47 Risen wrote:Hey marv wanna see something funny? Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 05:21 marvellosity wrote:I'm not sure I can get behind a Vivax lynch. His scum filter from Newbie XVI is here where he lurked and summarised stuff. Here he is active and pushing stuff, even if he's doing it badly. Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 03:32 marvellosity wrote:
i.e. all the talk about meta is a way of contributing without actually contributing
Now you're reaching. He said talking about meta is a way of contributing without contributing, not that using meta in arguments is useless.
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EPT
