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A lot of these women you're dismissing are Masters/GM level on their respective servers. I'm pretty sure that's enough qualification to make them "good". In fact, it makes them better than the majority of the men who play this game. The only reason we don't have really amazing women gamers yet is because we have such a small sample size. Look at it this way, of the thousands(millions maybe?) of men who play sc2 we've managed to find only say...20-30 who are really worth mentioning/watching in tournaments. Even though <1% of the male population is "any good", as you say, at this game, the rest of you still use that 1% as validation for male superiority. You never consider the 99% that is absolutely abhorrent at this game. The 99% that those women you're discounting are better than. The number of women who play sc2 is exponentially smaller so of course we have fewer representative and slimmer pickings when it comes to skilled players.
As far as us being discouraged from playing sc2, I suppose you're right. There are a lot of things here alone that make me want to never play this game again, but none of them are because I see pretty women and feel intimidated. There are many interests most of us have that have scenes full of beautiful women. It's a bit presumptuous of you to write such a long winded mansplain and pretend you have made some sort of revelation about women. You aren't our spokesperson and by writing posts like this you aren't really helping us. I am more turned off by the casual racism, homophobia, transphobia (as seen in Scarlett's case), objectification of women, and overall shitty gaming culture. The SC2 community likes to make itself out to be so much more mature than all of the other gaming scenes, but in reality, it's just as bad. The only difference being that the SC2 community has adopted a very holier than thou attitude to their assholery because they say "gg/gl;hf". There is no winning situation for any woman who tries to be involved in this community. If you're too good looking the majority of the posts about you will be slut shaming, discussions on how bangable you are, or some disgusting combination of the two. If you aren't deemed attractive by the basement dwellers they'll be sure to let you know of it. "Am I the only one who doesn't find her attractive - upboat plissssss".
Us not being taken seriously in the e-sports world is not a product of too many of us being attractive. It's the deep seated misogyny that permeates gamer culture. The kind of thinking that makes you believe you're correct in thinking women programmers are second rate solely on the basis that we have fewer extraordinary people. All while completely ignoring the higher percentage of average/below average programmers that exist in the male community just because you have a few shining stars to redeem your gender.
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 20 2012 03:39 pedostare wrote:
A lot of these women you're dismissing are Masters/GM level on their respective servers. I'm pretty sure that's enough qualification to make them "good". In fact, it makes them better than the majority of the men who play this game. The only reason we don't have really amazing women gamers yet is because we have such a small sample size. Look at it this way, of the thousands(millions maybe?) of men who play sc2 we've managed to find only say...20-30 who are really worth mentioning/watching in tournaments. Even though <1% of the male population is "any good", as you say, at this game, the rest of you still use that 1% as validation for male superiority. You never consider the 99% that is absolutely abhorrent at this game. The 99% that those women you're discounting are better than. The number of women who play sc2 is exponentially smaller so of course we have fewer representative and slimmer pickings when it comes to skilled players.
As far as us being discouraged from playing sc2, I suppose you're right. There are a lot of things here alone that make me want to never play this game again, but none of them are because I see pretty women and feel intimidated. There are many interests most of us have that have scenes full of beautiful women. It's a bit presumptuous of you to write such a long winded mansplain and pretend you have made some sort of revelation about women. You aren't our spokesperson and by writing posts like this you aren't really helping us. I am more turned off by the casual racism, homophobia, transphobia (as seen in Scarlett's case), objectification of women, and overall shitty gaming culture. The SC2 community likes to make itself out to be so much more mature than all of the other gaming scenes, but in reality, it's just as bad. The only difference being that the SC2 community has adopted a very holier than thou attitude to their assholery because they say "gg/gl;hf". There is no winning situation for any woman who tries to be involved in this community. If you're too good looking the majority of the posts about you will be slut shaming, discussions on how bangable you are, or some disgusting combination of the two. If you aren't deemed attractive by the basement dwellers they'll be sure to let you know of it. "Am I the only one who doesn't find her attractive - upboat plissssss".
Us not being taken seriously in the e-sports world is not a product of too many of us being attractive. It's the deep seated misogyny that permeates gamer culture. The kind of thinking that makes you believe you're correct in thinking women programmers are second rate solely on the basis that we have fewer extraordinary people. All while completely ignoring the higher percentage of average/below average programmers that exist in the male community just because you have a few shining stars to redeem your gender.
A lot of these women you're dismissing are Masters/GM level on their respective servers. I'm pretty sure that's enough qualification to make them "good".
I'm sorry, I didn't know this was a discussion on being good at SC2, my understanding was it was about being a professional player. I'm a high masters player, can I get to play with Startale too? I mean Eve is like diamond right? Seems fair to me, except for the next 2-3 thousand players ahead of me in skill/ranking. But if we had it your way, every women who could play at an average level and meet masters level, should be playing in GSL code S finals.
Secondly, your statistics are so assbackwards that you might as well throw out anything you've stated at the door... So many un backed stats you just decided to add to bolster your position its baffling that you think it helps, the "20/30" male pros are backed by a countless armada of Korean up and comers trying to qualify for Code a (stuck in Code B). Artosis and other noteable figures have said getting into Code A GSL through Code B is much harder than the rest of GSL... AND THESE are just unknown players, and ALL of them better then the mascots parading in ST and SlayerS... So before you rant about made up statistics and your own ignorant perspective maybe look into the situation a little farther.
The kind of thinking that makes you believe you're correct in thinking women programmers are second rate solely on the basis that we have fewer extraordinary people
His stance was not that women pro gamers (not programmers) are second rate based on having few extraordinary people. His position is that ONLY extraordinary people should get into GSL class teams, ONLY the best of the best should be featured on Startale and SlayerS, not show dolls, and if you think that those couple girls could top many of the players I mentioned previously in Code B everyday, then you're even more full of shit than you've previously proven.
If you're too good looking the majority of the posts about you will be slut shaming, discussions on how bangable you are, or some disgusting combination of the two.
The following quote, is purely hypocritical text. You generalize all male gamer's as pigs and idiots while taking the victims stance that male discriminate and generalize women based on looks, and looks alone. Please, stop posting ridiculous assumptions and idiotic beliefs.
I am more turned off by the casual racism, homophobia, transphobia (as seen in Scarlett's case), objectification of women, and overall shitty gaming culture.
-Causal racism. Last month, Orb was fired from EG and the community DEMOLISHED his reputation and almost shut EG's sponsors down over his racial slurs. Very casual of us.
-Homophobia. Teamliquid, the hub of Starcraft 2's community, has an entire thread DEDICATED to homosexual players, an ENTIRE staff of admins who ban homophobic remarks instantly... Perhaps another mistake by you again, generally assuming the stance, and being baseless and ignorant in the attempt.
-Transphobia. Again, even casters applauded the maturity of the community and how well it took to not going on reddit and smashing down the doors of human rights... Scarlett specifically had the MOST additions to her fanpage after IPL4 than ANY OTHER PRO PLAYER, EVER... Including Boxer/MKP/Nestea... Sure seems like the fans are transphobic... Every community has a few bad apples, making ignorant remarks. Those people have been banned from TL, and most gamers have shunned the comments they've made in regard. Again, another mistake on your assumption based ideology...
-objectification of women. The only objectification I've seen is by you, generalizing and assuming the stance of the majority of male gamer's. You, yourself, are the reason women get set back in gaming. There was a Beautiful women thread, and a Beautiful men thread, seems rather equal. Both, I repeat, BOTH were shut down. BECAUSE THEY WERE OBJECTIFYING a certain gender. Seems like TL is on top of that as well, and most of the community is behind them, so this wouldn't happen to be ANOTHER (count that 4) baseless assumption... would it?
-Shitty community. You, the horrible poster who does no research and just speaks with pure ignorance, make communities "shitty" so before you post again, think. That may be hard, for your feminist, over zealous, ignorant, generalizing self to handle but try it. It will make the community a better place.
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On April 20 2012 03:39 pedostare wrote:
A lot of these women you're dismissing are Masters/GM level on their respective servers. I'm pretty sure that's enough qualification to make them "good". In fact, it makes them better than the majority of the men who play this game. The only reason we don't have really amazing women gamers yet is because we have such a small sample size. Look at it this way, of the thousands(millions maybe?) of men who play sc2 we've managed to find only say...20-30 who are really worth mentioning/watching in tournaments. Even though <1% of the male population is "any good", as you say, at this game, the rest of you still use that 1% as validation for male superiority. You never consider the 99% that is absolutely abhorrent at this game. The 99% that those women you're discounting are better than. The number of women who play sc2 is exponentially smaller so of course we have fewer representative and slimmer pickings when it comes to skilled players.
As far as us being discouraged from playing sc2, I suppose you're right. There are a lot of things here alone that make me want to never play this game again, but none of them are because I see pretty women and feel intimidated. There are many interests most of us have that have scenes full of beautiful women. It's a bit presumptuous of you to write such a long winded mansplain and pretend you have made some sort of revelation about women. You aren't our spokesperson and by writing posts like this you aren't really helping us. I am more turned off by the casual racism, homophobia, transphobia (as seen in Scarlett's case), objectification of women, and overall shitty gaming culture. The SC2 community likes to make itself out to be so much more mature than all of the other gaming scenes, but in reality, it's just as bad. The only difference being that the SC2 community has adopted a very holier than thou attitude to their assholery because they say "gg/gl;hf". There is no winning situation for any woman who tries to be involved in this community. If you're too good looking the majority of the posts about you will be slut shaming, discussions on how bangable you are, or some disgusting combination of the two. If you aren't deemed attractive by the basement dwellers they'll be sure to let you know of it. "Am I the only one who doesn't find her attractive - upboat plissssss".
Us not being taken seriously in the e-sports world is not a product of too many of us being attractive. It's the deep seated misogyny that permeates gamer culture. The kind of thinking that makes you believe you're correct in thinking women programmers are second rate solely on the basis that we have fewer extraordinary people. All while completely ignoring the higher percentage of average/below average programmers that exist in the male community just because you have a few shining stars to redeem your gender.
Did you even read anything besides the OP? It really doesn't sound like you have.
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On April 20 2012 05:19 HardlyNever wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 03:39 pedostare wrote:
A lot of these women you're dismissing are Masters/GM level on their respective servers. I'm pretty sure that's enough qualification to make them "good". In fact, it makes them better than the majority of the men who play this game. The only reason we don't have really amazing women gamers yet is because we have such a small sample size. Look at it this way, of the thousands(millions maybe?) of men who play sc2 we've managed to find only say...20-30 who are really worth mentioning/watching in tournaments. Even though <1% of the male population is "any good", as you say, at this game, the rest of you still use that 1% as validation for male superiority. You never consider the 99% that is absolutely abhorrent at this game. The 99% that those women you're discounting are better than. The number of women who play sc2 is exponentially smaller so of course we have fewer representative and slimmer pickings when it comes to skilled players.
As far as us being discouraged from playing sc2, I suppose you're right. There are a lot of things here alone that make me want to never play this game again, but none of them are because I see pretty women and feel intimidated. There are many interests most of us have that have scenes full of beautiful women. It's a bit presumptuous of you to write such a long winded mansplain and pretend you have made some sort of revelation about women. You aren't our spokesperson and by writing posts like this you aren't really helping us. I am more turned off by the casual racism, homophobia, transphobia (as seen in Scarlett's case), objectification of women, and overall shitty gaming culture. The SC2 community likes to make itself out to be so much more mature than all of the other gaming scenes, but in reality, it's just as bad. The only difference being that the SC2 community has adopted a very holier than thou attitude to their assholery because they say "gg/gl;hf". There is no winning situation for any woman who tries to be involved in this community. If you're too good looking the majority of the posts about you will be slut shaming, discussions on how bangable you are, or some disgusting combination of the two. If you aren't deemed attractive by the basement dwellers they'll be sure to let you know of it. "Am I the only one who doesn't find her attractive - upboat plissssss".
Us not being taken seriously in the e-sports world is not a product of too many of us being attractive. It's the deep seated misogyny that permeates gamer culture. The kind of thinking that makes you believe you're correct in thinking women programmers are second rate solely on the basis that we have fewer extraordinary people. All while completely ignoring the higher percentage of average/below average programmers that exist in the male community just because you have a few shining stars to redeem your gender.
Did you even read anything besides the OP? It really doesn't sound like you have.
unlikely
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On April 19 2012 21:30 Sickkiee wrote:
Now, you can say that ST and SlayerS are doing it wrong; but how so? They are supporting female programmers, no matter the skill level - to encourage players like Scarlett and others to come out of the woodwork's, to beat DOWN the stereotype of programmers only making it big are male.
its not a stereotype.. no female progamers are making it big. its fact.
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On April 20 2012 05:19 HardlyNever wrote:
Did you even read anything besides the OP? It really doesn't sound like you have.
Well, since it seems like she's only addressing the OP, it doesn't really matter whether or not she read the others' posts...
On April 20 2012 05:09 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 03:39 pedostare wrote:If you're too good looking the majority of the posts about you will be slut shaming, discussions on how bangable you are, or some disgusting combination of the two. The following quote, is purely hypocritical text. You generalize all male gamer's as pigs and idiots while taking the victims stance that male discriminate and generalize women based on looks, and looks alone. Please, stop posting ridiculous assumptions and idiotic beliefs.
If you look at a topic about a female being recruited to a team, a large part of the posts are about how she looks, or at least mentions it in some way. However, topics about males being recruited to teams have very few posts about how he looks.
Your antagonistic tone isn't helping anything, either -- maybe she's just posting how she feels when she reads some posts in some gaming communities, and you accuse her of making "ridiculous assumptions" and holding "idiotic beliefs", which is maybe your way of saying you disagree, but combined with "stop posting", your words basically mean, "Shut up about your opinions, they're wrong, and I know how you should feel better than you do." And that plays into her point that the gaming culture (notice that she didn't say TL specifically) is shitty. When she posts her opinion, she's basically told "Shut up, you're wrong". So maybe for everyone who doesn't have to experience this, the gaming culture is alright, but for her, it's pretty shitty right now.
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On April 20 2012 05:09 NeMeSiS3 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 20 2012 03:39 pedostare wrote:
A lot of these women you're dismissing are Masters/GM level on their respective servers. I'm pretty sure that's enough qualification to make them "good". In fact, it makes them better than the majority of the men who play this game. The only reason we don't have really amazing women gamers yet is because we have such a small sample size. Look at it this way, of the thousands(millions maybe?) of men who play sc2 we've managed to find only say...20-30 who are really worth mentioning/watching in tournaments. Even though <1% of the male population is "any good", as you say, at this game, the rest of you still use that 1% as validation for male superiority. You never consider the 99% that is absolutely abhorrent at this game. The 99% that those women you're discounting are better than. The number of women who play sc2 is exponentially smaller so of course we have fewer representative and slimmer pickings when it comes to skilled players.
As far as us being discouraged from playing sc2, I suppose you're right. There are a lot of things here alone that make me want to never play this game again, but none of them are because I see pretty women and feel intimidated. There are many interests most of us have that have scenes full of beautiful women. It's a bit presumptuous of you to write such a long winded mansplain and pretend you have made some sort of revelation about women. You aren't our spokesperson and by writing posts like this you aren't really helping us. I am more turned off by the casual racism, homophobia, transphobia (as seen in Scarlett's case), objectification of women, and overall shitty gaming culture. The SC2 community likes to make itself out to be so much more mature than all of the other gaming scenes, but in reality, it's just as bad. The only difference being that the SC2 community has adopted a very holier than thou attitude to their assholery because they say "gg/gl;hf". There is no winning situation for any woman who tries to be involved in this community. If you're too good looking the majority of the posts about you will be slut shaming, discussions on how bangable you are, or some disgusting combination of the two. If you aren't deemed attractive by the basement dwellers they'll be sure to let you know of it. "Am I the only one who doesn't find her attractive - upboat plissssss".
Us not being taken seriously in the e-sports world is not a product of too many of us being attractive. It's the deep seated misogyny that permeates gamer culture. The kind of thinking that makes you believe you're correct in thinking women programmers are second rate solely on the basis that we have fewer extraordinary people. All while completely ignoring the higher percentage of average/below average programmers that exist in the male community just because you have a few shining stars to redeem your gender.
Show nested quote +A lot of these women you're dismissing are Masters/GM level on their respective servers. I'm pretty sure that's enough qualification to make them "good". I'm sorry, I didn't know this was a discussion on being good at SC2, my understanding was it was about being a professional player. I'm a high masters player, can I get to play with Startale too? I mean Eve is like diamond right? Seems fair to me, except for the next 2-3 thousand players ahead of me in skill/ranking. But if we had it your way, every women who could play at an average level and meet masters level, should be playing in GSL code S finals. Secondly, your statistics are so assbackwards that you might as well throw out anything you've stated at the door... So many un backed stats you just decided to add to bolster your position its baffling that you think it helps, the "20/30" male pros are backed by a countless armada of Korean up and comers trying to qualify for Code a (stuck in Code B). Artosis and other noteable figures have said getting into Code A GSL through Code B is much harder than the rest of GSL... AND THESE are just unknown players, and ALL of them better then the mascots parading in ST and SlayerS... So before you rant about made up statistics and your own ignorant perspective maybe look into the situation a little farther. Show nested quote +The kind of thinking that makes you believe you're correct in thinking women programmers are second rate solely on the basis that we have fewer extraordinary people His stance was not that women pro gamers (not programmers) are second rate based on having few extraordinary people. His position is that ONLY extraordinary people should get into GSL class teams, ONLY the best of the best should be featured on Startale and SlayerS, not show dolls, and if you think that those couple girls could top many of the players I mentioned previously in Code B everyday, then you're even more full of shit than you've previously proven. Show nested quote +If you're too good looking the majority of the posts about you will be slut shaming, discussions on how bangable you are, or some disgusting combination of the two. The following quote, is purely hypocritical text. You generalize all male gamer's as pigs and idiots while taking the victims stance that male discriminate and generalize women based on looks, and looks alone. Please, stop posting ridiculous assumptions and idiotic beliefs. Show nested quote + I am more turned off by the casual racism, homophobia, transphobia (as seen in Scarlett's case), objectification of women, and overall shitty gaming culture. -Causal racism. Last month, Orb was fired from EG and the community DEMOLISHED his reputation and almost shut EG's sponsors down over his racial slurs. Very casual of us. -Homophobia. Teamliquid, the hub of Starcraft 2's community, has an entire thread DEDICATED to homosexual players, an ENTIRE staff of admins who ban homophobic remarks instantly... Perhaps another mistake by you again, generally assuming the stance, and being baseless and ignorant in the attempt. -Transphobia. Again, even casters applauded the maturity of the community and how well it took to not going on reddit and smashing down the doors of human rights... Scarlett specifically had the MOST additions to her fanpage after IPL4 than ANY OTHER PRO PLAYER, EVER... Including Boxer/MKP/Nestea... Sure seems like the fans are transphobic... Every community has a few bad apples, making ignorant remarks. Those people have been banned from TL, and most gamers have shunned the comments they've made in regard. Again, another mistake on your assumption based ideology... -objectification of women. The only objectification I've seen is by you, generalizing and assuming the stance of the majority of male gamer's. You, yourself, are the reason women get set back in gaming. There was a Beautiful women thread, and a Beautiful men thread, seems rather equal. Both, I repeat, BOTH were shut down. BECAUSE THEY WERE OBJECTIFYING a certain gender. Seems like TL is on top of that as well, and most of the community is behind them, so this wouldn't happen to be ANOTHER (count that 4) baseless assumption... would it? -Shitty community. You, the horrible poster who does no research and just speaks with pure ignorance, make communities "shitty" so before you post again, think. That may be hard, for your feminist, over zealous, ignorant, generalizing self to handle but try it. It will make the community a better place.
They(the girls) are the best of what is available at the moment. That's the point. It's a good thing someone like Scarlett was discovered. She's one of the first really good players in awhile, so hopefully more women players will be interested in tournaments in the future, and we'll have more of our extraordinary people. Obviously there's more than 1% of men who are being represented in sc2 media, but it was hyperbole for a reason. Point being there are vastly more men who are not "special" than those who are, and those who complain the most about women being on teams are a part of the "not special.". You can take all the Asian, American, and EU teams combined and it'd still be an insignificant portion of the totality of male players.
What they do with the girls on those teams is a pretty nice thing. Most of the girls are good players training to become better players. They're not on par with the men on their team, but I'd like to think one day they will be. You're looking for us to produce some extra special amazing woman player, but that's easier said than done. As I've said earlier, smaller sampling size ---> less likelihood of getting an amazing talent. If x-factor only auditioned 10 people each season they'd likely never find anyone.
As for the community being terrible, I stand by what I said. You're basing the SC2 community solely off of TL mods and a reddit witch hunt (which by the next week became a meme, and there were tons of people who supported Orb). Have you read BNET forums lately? :/ Stream comments? Youtube comments? r/sc2 comments? Because a lot of them are really..really bad. As much as you'd like to pretend they don't exist, those people are still a part of the community, and there are a lot of them. o_o We'd all like to shrug those people all of as not being a part of our community because that excuses us from doing anything about the problem or even acknowledging that it exists.While TL prides itself in being the #1 go to place for SC2 information it is not the entirety of the population. The only reason TL hasn't devolved into as cruddy of a place is because of heavy moderation and strict rules.
When you venture outside of the moderated sc2 community you won't like what you find (or maybe you will O_O). I have my sc2 people I follow like everyone else, and the comments you find surrounding them are generally less than ideal, especially for the women. I'm not trying to paint anyone with a broad brush, sorry if the post earlier was too forward, but there's an inescapable amount of bad things being said outside of the moderated sc2 community, and that is more discouraging than anything.
Attitudes like the OPs and comments surrounding them are bothersome. It tells me that if I ever get recognized for playing SC and I am too pretty there's a group of angry dissenters who will be more upset with me for getting recognized than happy with me for trying to make it into the scene. It's beyond insulting to call the women who are on those teams and trying to get better cheerleaders. A lot of them are trying their best and trying to become people our little community can look up to. It's unfair to talk about them that way, and that sort of discussion does more to "hurt" the scene than anything I've said.
I'm sure most women are excited when they see women being recognized in the scene, not off-put because the women are "cheer leaders." I wasn't trying to come off as an over zealous lalala w/e it is you called me. I'm only trying to express how many of us feel in the gaming community. I am ecstatic every time I see a woman show up at a tourney, regardless of her looks. And I'm proud that we have so many beautiful ladies to represent us. I don't think "wow, those girls only got recognized because they are pretty"; I think "wow, it's really nice to see women who defy stereotypes by managing to be both talented and beautiful."
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There is absolutely no advantage gained in StarCraft from being male
Are you kidding me
and
No seriously, are you fricking kidding me
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On April 20 2012 08:04 hkf wrote:Are you kidding me and No seriously, are you fricking kidding me
There's this cool thing you can do when disagreeing with something, it's called explaining and making an argument why.
I am yet to see any evidence that what's between your legs affects your potential skill at StarCraft. There is a difference between your impact on the scene, but as I discussed in the OP, that should not be that relevant.
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On April 20 2012 08:42 Ruscour wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 08:04 hkf wrote:There is absolutely no advantage gained in StarCraft from being male Are you kidding me and No seriously, are you fricking kidding me There's this cool thing you can do when disagreeing with something, it's called explaining and making an argument why. I am yet to see any evidence that what's between your legs affects your potential skill at StarCraft. There is a difference between your impact on the scene, but as I discussed in the OP, that should not be that relevant.
I think it's how the brain functions actually. This may come as a shock, but male and female's process information totally different. Men take negativity much easier than women do, "be a man" for example, while girls cry over negative things easier "he didnt even say goodnight!" So, like I posted earlier, it can be said the only thing holding most women back is the fact they can't grind as many games without getting overly frustrated because it's a lot of negativity which they generally do not respond well too.
That being said, I agree that the poster hkf is an idiot.
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 20 2012 07:30 pedostare wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 05:09 NeMeSiS3 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 20 2012 03:39 pedostare wrote:
A lot of these women you're dismissing are Masters/GM level on their respective servers. I'm pretty sure that's enough qualification to make them "good". In fact, it makes them better than the majority of the men who play this game. The only reason we don't have really amazing women gamers yet is because we have such a small sample size. Look at it this way, of the thousands(millions maybe?) of men who play sc2 we've managed to find only say...20-30 who are really worth mentioning/watching in tournaments. Even though <1% of the male population is "any good", as you say, at this game, the rest of you still use that 1% as validation for male superiority. You never consider the 99% that is absolutely abhorrent at this game. The 99% that those women you're discounting are better than. The number of women who play sc2 is exponentially smaller so of course we have fewer representative and slimmer pickings when it comes to skilled players.
As far as us being discouraged from playing sc2, I suppose you're right. There are a lot of things here alone that make me want to never play this game again, but none of them are because I see pretty women and feel intimidated. There are many interests most of us have that have scenes full of beautiful women. It's a bit presumptuous of you to write such a long winded mansplain and pretend you have made some sort of revelation about women. You aren't our spokesperson and by writing posts like this you aren't really helping us. I am more turned off by the casual racism, homophobia, transphobia (as seen in Scarlett's case), objectification of women, and overall shitty gaming culture. The SC2 community likes to make itself out to be so much more mature than all of the other gaming scenes, but in reality, it's just as bad. The only difference being that the SC2 community has adopted a very holier than thou attitude to their assholery because they say "gg/gl;hf". There is no winning situation for any woman who tries to be involved in this community. If you're too good looking the majority of the posts about you will be slut shaming, discussions on how bangable you are, or some disgusting combination of the two. If you aren't deemed attractive by the basement dwellers they'll be sure to let you know of it. "Am I the only one who doesn't find her attractive - upboat plissssss".
Us not being taken seriously in the e-sports world is not a product of too many of us being attractive. It's the deep seated misogyny that permeates gamer culture. The kind of thinking that makes you believe you're correct in thinking women programmers are second rate solely on the basis that we have fewer extraordinary people. All while completely ignoring the higher percentage of average/below average programmers that exist in the male community just because you have a few shining stars to redeem your gender.
A lot of these women you're dismissing are Masters/GM level on their respective servers. I'm pretty sure that's enough qualification to make them "good". I'm sorry, I didn't know this was a discussion on being good at SC2, my understanding was it was about being a professional player. I'm a high masters player, can I get to play with Startale too? I mean Eve is like diamond right? Seems fair to me, except for the next 2-3 thousand players ahead of me in skill/ranking. But if we had it your way, every women who could play at an average level and meet masters level, should be playing in GSL code S finals. Secondly, your statistics are so assbackwards that you might as well throw out anything you've stated at the door... So many un backed stats you just decided to add to bolster your position its baffling that you think it helps, the "20/30" male pros are backed by a countless armada of Korean up and comers trying to qualify for Code a (stuck in Code B). Artosis and other noteable figures have said getting into Code A GSL through Code B is much harder than the rest of GSL... AND THESE are just unknown players, and ALL of them better then the mascots parading in ST and SlayerS... So before you rant about made up statistics and your own ignorant perspective maybe look into the situation a little farther. The kind of thinking that makes you believe you're correct in thinking women programmers are second rate solely on the basis that we have fewer extraordinary people His stance was not that women pro gamers (not programmers) are second rate based on having few extraordinary people. His position is that ONLY extraordinary people should get into GSL class teams, ONLY the best of the best should be featured on Startale and SlayerS, not show dolls, and if you think that those couple girls could top many of the players I mentioned previously in Code B everyday, then you're even more full of shit than you've previously proven. If you're too good looking the majority of the posts about you will be slut shaming, discussions on how bangable you are, or some disgusting combination of the two. The following quote, is purely hypocritical text. You generalize all male gamer's as pigs and idiots while taking the victims stance that male discriminate and generalize women based on looks, and looks alone. Please, stop posting ridiculous assumptions and idiotic beliefs. I am more turned off by the casual racism, homophobia, transphobia (as seen in Scarlett's case), objectification of women, and overall shitty gaming culture. -Causal racism. Last month, Orb was fired from EG and the community DEMOLISHED his reputation and almost shut EG's sponsors down over his racial slurs. Very casual of us. -Homophobia. Teamliquid, the hub of Starcraft 2's community, has an entire thread DEDICATED to homosexual players, an ENTIRE staff of admins who ban homophobic remarks instantly... Perhaps another mistake by you again, generally assuming the stance, and being baseless and ignorant in the attempt. -Transphobia. Again, even casters applauded the maturity of the community and how well it took to not going on reddit and smashing down the doors of human rights... Scarlett specifically had the MOST additions to her fanpage after IPL4 than ANY OTHER PRO PLAYER, EVER... Including Boxer/MKP/Nestea... Sure seems like the fans are transphobic... Every community has a few bad apples, making ignorant remarks. Those people have been banned from TL, and most gamers have shunned the comments they've made in regard. Again, another mistake on your assumption based ideology... -objectification of women. The only objectification I've seen is by you, generalizing and assuming the stance of the majority of male gamer's. You, yourself, are the reason women get set back in gaming. There was a Beautiful women thread, and a Beautiful men thread, seems rather equal. Both, I repeat, BOTH were shut down. BECAUSE THEY WERE OBJECTIFYING a certain gender. Seems like TL is on top of that as well, and most of the community is behind them, so this wouldn't happen to be ANOTHER (count that 4) baseless assumption... would it? -Shitty community. You, the horrible poster who does no research and just speaks with pure ignorance, make communities "shitty" so before you post again, think. That may be hard, for your feminist, over zealous, ignorant, generalizing self to handle but try it. It will make the community a better place. They(the girls) are the best of what is available at the moment. That's the point. It's a good thing someone like Scarlett was discovered. She's one of the first really good players in awhile, so hopefully more women players will be interested in tournaments in the future, and we'll have more of our extraordinary people. Obviously there's more than 1% of men who are being represented in sc2 media, but it was hyperbole for a reason. Point being there are vastly more men who are not "special" than those who are, and those who complain the most about women being on teams are a part of the "not special.". You can take all the Asian, American, and EU teams combined and it'd still be an insignificant portion of the totality of male players. What they do with the girls on those teams is a pretty nice thing. Most of the girls are good players training to become better players. They're not on par with the men on their team, but I'd like to think one day they will be. You're looking for us to produce some extra special amazing woman player, but that's easier said than done. As I've said earlier, smaller sampling size ---> less likelihood of getting an amazing talent. If x-factor only auditioned 10 people each season they'd likely never find anyone. As for the community being terrible, I stand by what I said. You're basing the SC2 community solely off of TL mods and a reddit witch hunt (which by the next week became a meme, and there were tons of people who supported Orb). Have you read BNET forums lately? :/ Stream comments? Youtube comments? r/sc2 comments? Because a lot of them are really..really bad. As much as you'd like to pretend they don't exist, those people are still a part of the community, and there are a lot of them. o_o We'd all like to shrug those people all of as not being a part of our community because that excuses us from doing anything about the problem or even acknowledging that it exists.While TL prides itself in being the #1 go to place for SC2 information it is not the entirety of the population. The only reason TL hasn't devolved into as cruddy of a place is because of heavy moderation and strict rules. When you venture outside of the moderated sc2 community you won't like what you find (or maybe you will O_O). I have my sc2 people I follow like everyone else, and the comments you find surrounding them are generally less than ideal, especially for the women. I'm not trying to paint anyone with a broad brush, sorry if the post earlier was too forward, but there's an inescapable amount of bad things being said outside of the moderated sc2 community, and that is more discouraging than anything. Attitudes like the OPs and comments surrounding them are bothersome. It tells me that if I ever get recognized for playing SC and I am too pretty there's a group of angry dissenters who will be more upset with me for getting recognized than happy with me for trying to make it into the scene. It's beyond insulting to call the women who are on those teams and trying to get better cheerleaders. A lot of them are trying their best and trying to become people our little community can look up to. It's unfair to talk about them that way, and that sort of discussion does more to "hurt" the scene than anything I've said. I'm sure most women are excited when they see women being recognized in the scene, not off-put because the women are "cheer leaders." I wasn't trying to come off as an over zealous lalala w/e it is you called me. I'm only trying to express how many of us feel in the gaming community. I am ecstatic every time I see a woman show up at a tourney, regardless of her looks. And I'm proud that we have so many beautiful ladies to represent us. I don't think "wow, those girls only got recognized because they are pretty"; I think "wow, it's really nice to see women who defy stereotypes by managing to be both talented and beautiful."
They(the girls) are the best of what is available at the moment. That's the point.
No, I believe the point (btw thank you for responding in a fashion that is not extremely pretentious, I do appreciate the civility) is that, who cares? Equality, is in fact equality. Women should get "equal" rights to pro teams as men, not free passes because they have a nice body, or because the team really needs a sponsor to bite... These women, are simply not caliber to be called professional players, definitely not more deserving than many others. That. Is. The. Point. It would be the same if an African American male got a job over a White man (which believe me actually does happen) just so the company looks more racially neutral. Like I said, there is a difference between true equality and then making nice.
So yes, we realize they are girls, and yes it's nice they like to play, but it's pretty obvious (and they've said) that they do not put that much time into the game... Definitely not enough to become even Code B level. So THAT is the issue.
more men who are not "special" than those who are, and those who complain the most about women being on teams are a part of the "not special.". You can take all the Asian, American, and EU teams combined and it'd still be an insignificant portion of the totality of male players.
Yes, like any major sport the point is that it has such a skill ceiling that only a small minority of players can compete at the highest level.. 32 teams in the NHL, 19 players per team usually... That is on average 608 players in professional hockey (disregarding KHL and other leagues)... perhaps millions of people play/have played hockey in the time frame of when these players are playing/were playing and yet there they stand the minority. So you bolstering about this fictional value, like only 1% of the community of all men are pro gamers, so what? I'd go as far as to say much much less are able to support themselves financially, so above all this is the greatest insult to them. iNcontroL on SOTG stated that this new phenomenon of female gamers, is just them parading mascots... I'd have to say he's part of the "special" as you like to put it. So why do they get these positions of security while others much better squabble for twitch tv revenue ... Is that fair?
They're not on par with the men on their team, but I'd like to think one day they will be.
So you agree, they could be filled with more deserving players than? That they are not on par with professional players, and such are just there to do what? Stand as trophies? If anything, this is the greatest insult to women, SlayerS EVE especially should NOT BE on a professional team, and yet there she is, cute as ever. You tell me why she's there, atleast aphrodite has done very little, getting masters on KR like that is something to place your cards down and say, I'm allin she's worth the position. So why do you think women deserve positions that they haven't earned?
As I've said earlier, smaller sampling size ---> less likelihood of getting an amazing talent. If x-factor only auditioned 10 people each season they'd likely never find anyone.
You're completely right, with the small sampling size it's hard. Guess what, that isn't the communities problem or the pro circuits. Equality =/= hand outs to let women feel better. I doubt any self-assured women would love the idea that if she plays SC2 one day she might get to be a trophy for a team, or that they aren't taken seriously by any gamer because they are given position unearned. Scarlett, as you've mentioned, represents the female side as much as the male, as you might guess that's because she's transgender, meaning she can't be lofted into this debate... You can't decide why Dogs are more obedient than cats by throwing a monkey into the mix and say that it can learn sign language from being obedient... This is a completely misplaced. So yes, it would be wonderful to have pro gamers be women, but no having women like Eve represent women is a farce and disgusting when based on equality.
Have you read BNET forums lately? :/ Stream comments? Youtube comments? r/sc2 comments?
Oh really? People can be bad? People can be ignorant? Walk into the Southern States as an African American and have political figures/judges slur racial remarks your way. Go down an alley and hear rude remarks. That's humanity, and generalizing the entire community is as ignorant as generalizing every jew is good with money. We are not all, we are diverse and the majority (like you see on TL) are mature, the issue is that you are so dumbfounded by this (for some apparent reason you've been living in a box and haven't realized the worlds a crude place) that you bunched us all together for the gallows... So perhaps you can, instead of stating our entire communities a shit hole, start looking a bit clearer because your visions distorted, and it is personally insulting to me to have you speak of women getting generalized then generalize male gamer's in this community.
heavy moderation and strict rules.
I'd like to see these strict rules, last time I checked it was basically, don't be a bad and/or stupid person and you will not be banned. I believe "strictly" prohibiting the things they prohibit falls under the "don't be an idiot" slogan.
When you venture outside of the moderated sc2 community you won't like what you find (or maybe you will O_O). I have my sc2 people I follow like everyone else, and the comments you find surrounding them are generally less than ideal, especially for the women. I'm not trying to paint anyone with a broad brush, sorry if the post earlier was too forward, but there's an inescapable amount of bad things being said outside of the moderated sc2 community, and that is more discouraging than anything.
The picture you're painting for women is that you want handouts, so stop it. If I go anywhere on the internet out of this community I'll find pedophiles searching jailbait, people researching conspiracy theories that we didn't land on the moon, and that the WHITE WILL RISE AGAIN. People are people, idiots are idiots no matter where on earth you go that isn't moderated. Stop kidding yourself. The inescapable amount of bad things, like iNcontroL said, is generally a tiny fraction of the internet with the most time on there hands to post the most horrific things because they are, what we call, trolls. Seem's similar to a Jr High School, just because one fat kid with a big mouth yells slut doesn't mean the other 1000 kids are all labeled with him.
It's beyond insulting to call the women who are on those teams and trying to get better cheerleaders. A lot of them are trying their best and trying to become people our little community can look up to. It's unfair to talk about them that way, and that sort of discussion does more to "hurt" the scene than anything I've said.
No, what's beyond insulting is the fact you think they deserve to be on those teams trying to get better within those teams... Sure, those teams have PRACTICE HOUSES, but they don't have charity houses there to give free passes to women who look nice, or not. This op was not directed at the fact they look nice, it was at the fact that there HAS TO BE SOME REASON they are there, and it is SURELY not based on skill (Eve will be my sole example) She is not only below average, she is not even masters, and if she is SHE BARLEY is masters. How dare you decide to come onto this forum and say "oh it's so unfair, men, those pigs, are calling women cheerleaders because they play professional games, fucking men and fucking gaming community are all pigs" No, absolutely not, you're completely out of line. Those women have DONE NOTHING for women, and NOTHING for the community other then bring it down... Sure you're a bit short sighted and see it as a big step, about as big a step as shutting the door on equality completely. Imagine how unfair this is to other people, others who practice 10-12 hours a day, try so hard to get in and are just PLAIN better than these "female pro gamers" and yet they are on the out and these girls are on the in... Imagine that for a second, it's a fucking joke. So before you start crying about the world and how unfair it is, and how they're trying there best. They're best IS NOT good enough yet, it may be good enough later but they have NOT proven themselves and should NOT be recognized as pro gamer's unless they wish to be the teams cheerleader who doesn't participate in teamleagues and doesn't go to tournaments (hey, kinda like a cheerleader, standing at the side lines going "woohoo get them boys") which is disrespectful to women, and to the people trying to make it into the scene.
I am ecstatic every time I see a woman show up at a tourney, regardless of her looks. And I'm proud that we have so many beautiful ladies to represent us. I don't think "wow, those girls only got recognized because they are pretty"; I think "wow, it's really nice to see women who defy stereotypes by managing to be both talented and beautiful
They have yet to defy any stereotypes, so your statements here are false. They actually only are recognized because they are pretty, and that is fact. I have yet to see one of the pro female players represent the team (other then flo) in a matter a pro gamer would. You are ecstatic that women get freebies and get to join because they look pretty, and can kinda play? Then you are again, the reason this community is a little ass backwards sometimes. "talented" and "ok at the game" are two totally different things. Being "masters/gm" does not qualify you to be a pro gamer, seeing as there are many GM's on NA higher than them, I find it strange they haven't been rostered. Combat-ex was GM for a very long time, why wasn't he rostered? No results/rank doesnt matter.
So here it is, stop crying about equality while trying to force the complete opposite on the community. Thank you.
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On April 20 2012 09:17 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 08:42 Ruscour wrote:On April 20 2012 08:04 hkf wrote:There is absolutely no advantage gained in StarCraft from being male Are you kidding me and No seriously, are you fricking kidding me There's this cool thing you can do when disagreeing with something, it's called explaining and making an argument why. I am yet to see any evidence that what's between your legs affects your potential skill at StarCraft. There is a difference between your impact on the scene, but as I discussed in the OP, that should not be that relevant. I think it's how the brain functions actually. This may come as a shock, but male and female's process information totally different. Men take negativity much easier than women do, "be a man" for example, while girls cry over negative things easier "he didnt even say goodnight!" So, like I posted earlier, it can be said the only thing holding most women back is the fact they can't grind as many games without getting overly frustrated because it's a lot of negativity which they generally do not respond well too. That being said, I agree that the poster hkf is an idiot.
Tossgirl has said in interview(s) that she finds it hard to practice more than four hours a day because she gets frustrated and/or worn out. As a BW pro, 4 hours a day just won't cut it, obviously. Frustration also makes it harder to objectively analyze games that you lost, which slows down the improvement process further. The skill difference between her and male progamers who practice fulltime grows over time, leading to a lower win rate and more frustration. Vicious cycle.
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On April 20 2012 09:41 Demonhunter04 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 09:17 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On April 20 2012 08:42 Ruscour wrote:On April 20 2012 08:04 hkf wrote:There is absolutely no advantage gained in StarCraft from being male Are you kidding me and No seriously, are you fricking kidding me There's this cool thing you can do when disagreeing with something, it's called explaining and making an argument why. I am yet to see any evidence that what's between your legs affects your potential skill at StarCraft. There is a difference between your impact on the scene, but as I discussed in the OP, that should not be that relevant. I think it's how the brain functions actually. This may come as a shock, but male and female's process information totally different. Men take negativity much easier than women do, "be a man" for example, while girls cry over negative things easier "he didnt even say goodnight!" So, like I posted earlier, it can be said the only thing holding most women back is the fact they can't grind as many games without getting overly frustrated because it's a lot of negativity which they generally do not respond well too. That being said, I agree that the poster hkf is an idiot. Tossgirl has said in interview(s) that she finds it hard to practice more than four hours a day because she gets frustrated and/or worn out. As a BW pro, 4 hours a day just won't cut it, obviously. Frustration also makes it harder to objectively analyze games that you lost, which slows down the improvement process further. The skill difference between her and male progamers who practice fulltime grows over time, leading to a lower win rate and more frustration. Vicious cycle.
I was going to say it was Tossgirl's interview that sparked my attention on that (plus other data I've read/seen) but I didn't wanna just post it and be like fuck I can't bring a cited information bar up and show where I got it. Thanks haha
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It was almost a polite reply...till you edited it.
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On April 20 2012 09:17 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 08:42 Ruscour wrote:On April 20 2012 08:04 hkf wrote:There is absolutely no advantage gained in StarCraft from being male Are you kidding me and No seriously, are you fricking kidding me There's this cool thing you can do when disagreeing with something, it's called explaining and making an argument why. I am yet to see any evidence that what's between your legs affects your potential skill at StarCraft. There is a difference between your impact on the scene, but as I discussed in the OP, that should not be that relevant. I think it's how the brain functions actually. This may come as a shock, but male and female's process information totally different. Men take negativity much easier than women do, "be a man" for example, while girls cry over negative things easier "he didnt even say goodnight!" So, like I posted earlier, it can be said the only thing holding most women back is the fact they can't grind as many games without getting overly frustrated because it's a lot of negativity which they generally do not respond well too. That being said, I agree that the poster hkf is an idiot.
you're half right, but in the wrong aspect.
Have a look at what the target audience for starcraft is, as well as the design process for about 90%~ of modern video games (released in 2000-2010). And come back and tell me that they are not designed for a male audience PRIMARILY.
It's a common fact that you design to maximise profit.
There are also NUMBEROUS peer-reviewed studies (hell, I've even co-authored one or two during my university days) that demostrate that there are differences in cognitive processes when it comes to approaching interfaces between male and females. Bottom line is, something designed to exploit a market is always going to favour the target market, unless the design was a complete failure.
Note: these things do not include field-agnostic challenges such as practicing for x hours a day, being able to take losses better, etc. I know plenty of females that succeed in a traditionally male field, and do those (again, field-agnostic) things better than me.
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On April 20 2012 10:04 hkf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 09:17 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On April 20 2012 08:42 Ruscour wrote:On April 20 2012 08:04 hkf wrote:There is absolutely no advantage gained in StarCraft from being male Are you kidding me and No seriously, are you fricking kidding me There's this cool thing you can do when disagreeing with something, it's called explaining and making an argument why. I am yet to see any evidence that what's between your legs affects your potential skill at StarCraft. There is a difference between your impact on the scene, but as I discussed in the OP, that should not be that relevant. I think it's how the brain functions actually. This may come as a shock, but male and female's process information totally different. Men take negativity much easier than women do, "be a man" for example, while girls cry over negative things easier "he didnt even say goodnight!" So, like I posted earlier, it can be said the only thing holding most women back is the fact they can't grind as many games without getting overly frustrated because it's a lot of negativity which they generally do not respond well too. That being said, I agree that the poster hkf is an idiot. you're half right, but in the wrong aspect. Have a look at what the target audience for starcraft is, as well as the design process for about 90%~ of modern video games (released in 2000-2010). And come back and tell me that they are not designed for a male audience PRIMARILY. It's a common fact that you design to maximise profit. There are also NUMBEROUS peer-reviewed studies (hell, I've even co-authored one or two during my university days) that demostrate that there are differences in cognitive processes when it comes to approaching interfaces between male and females. Bottom line is, something designed to exploit a market is always going to favour the target market, unless the design was a complete failure.
I'm sorry, what are you saying, women don't enjoy these games? Last time I checked WoW is HEAVILY populated by female gamers... Doubt that was the target at creation. But I guess you "numberous" knowledge on the subject of developers cornering the male market and saying fuck off the the females is probably right
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On April 20 2012 10:07 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 10:04 hkf wrote:On April 20 2012 09:17 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On April 20 2012 08:42 Ruscour wrote:On April 20 2012 08:04 hkf wrote:There is absolutely no advantage gained in StarCraft from being male Are you kidding me and No seriously, are you fricking kidding me There's this cool thing you can do when disagreeing with something, it's called explaining and making an argument why. I am yet to see any evidence that what's between your legs affects your potential skill at StarCraft. There is a difference between your impact on the scene, but as I discussed in the OP, that should not be that relevant. I think it's how the brain functions actually. This may come as a shock, but male and female's process information totally different. Men take negativity much easier than women do, "be a man" for example, while girls cry over negative things easier "he didnt even say goodnight!" So, like I posted earlier, it can be said the only thing holding most women back is the fact they can't grind as many games without getting overly frustrated because it's a lot of negativity which they generally do not respond well too. That being said, I agree that the poster hkf is an idiot. you're half right, but in the wrong aspect. Have a look at what the target audience for starcraft is, as well as the design process for about 90%~ of modern video games (released in 2000-2010). And come back and tell me that they are not designed for a male audience PRIMARILY. It's a common fact that you design to maximise profit. There are also NUMBEROUS peer-reviewed studies (hell, I've even co-authored one or two during my university days) that demostrate that there are differences in cognitive processes when it comes to approaching interfaces between male and females. Bottom line is, something designed to exploit a market is always going to favour the target market, unless the design was a complete failure. I'm sorry, what are you saying, women don't enjoy these games? Last time I checked WoW is HEAVILY populated by female gamers... Doubt that was the target at creation. But I guess you "numberous" knowledge on the subject of developers cornering the male market and saying fuck off the the females is probably right
You would be very surprised at what the target audience for certain games could be. Using WOW as a comparison is VERY weak in your arugment, as the game is able to be constantly evolved due to its nature. How likely is it for SC to add in a minigame where you control your automaton-2000 and battle their scantipede in a duel to see who gets to take their 3rd first?
And not 'all women don't enjoy RTS's'. It is the exception rather than the rule.
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On April 20 2012 10:12 hkf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 10:07 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On April 20 2012 10:04 hkf wrote:On April 20 2012 09:17 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On April 20 2012 08:42 Ruscour wrote:On April 20 2012 08:04 hkf wrote:There is absolutely no advantage gained in StarCraft from being male Are you kidding me and No seriously, are you fricking kidding me There's this cool thing you can do when disagreeing with something, it's called explaining and making an argument why. I am yet to see any evidence that what's between your legs affects your potential skill at StarCraft. There is a difference between your impact on the scene, but as I discussed in the OP, that should not be that relevant. I think it's how the brain functions actually. This may come as a shock, but male and female's process information totally different. Men take negativity much easier than women do, "be a man" for example, while girls cry over negative things easier "he didnt even say goodnight!" So, like I posted earlier, it can be said the only thing holding most women back is the fact they can't grind as many games without getting overly frustrated because it's a lot of negativity which they generally do not respond well too. That being said, I agree that the poster hkf is an idiot. you're half right, but in the wrong aspect. Have a look at what the target audience for starcraft is, as well as the design process for about 90%~ of modern video games (released in 2000-2010). And come back and tell me that they are not designed for a male audience PRIMARILY. It's a common fact that you design to maximise profit. There are also NUMBEROUS peer-reviewed studies (hell, I've even co-authored one or two during my university days) that demostrate that there are differences in cognitive processes when it comes to approaching interfaces between male and females. Bottom line is, something designed to exploit a market is always going to favour the target market, unless the design was a complete failure. I'm sorry, what are you saying, women don't enjoy these games? Last time I checked WoW is HEAVILY populated by female gamers... Doubt that was the target at creation. But I guess you "numberous" knowledge on the subject of developers cornering the male market and saying fuck off the the females is probably right You would be very surprised at what the target audience for certain games could be. Using WOW as a comparison is VERY weak in your arugment, as the game is able to be constantly evolved due to its nature. How likely is it for SC to add in a minigame where you control your automaton-2000 and battle their scantipede in a duel to see who gets to take their 3rd first? And not 'all women don't enjoy RTS's'. It is the exception rather than the rule.
All you've made are assumptions based on your own opinion, stop it, it's spamming this discussion and getting anyone no where....
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Since when has anything in the entertainment industry been a meritocracy?
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EPT
