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On April 12 2012 08:27 power-overwhelming wrote:
Honestly.. Terrans decided it would be a good idea to take Protoss in a macro game right when Protoss learned how good late game units can be. Don't know why Terrans stopped doing multi drops early aggression. It's like "okay, lets play tvp the protoss way, and if we lose we can always whine". There is still no stopping properly executed 1/1/1 or any stim timing attacks that would render any late game Toss useless.
If only MVP was healthy, at least terran whine would go away.
Really?
How many times did you see 1-1-1 in IPL4? How many times have you seen it in this season's code S? Why would ANY pro do a stim all-in timing when forcefields can stop it indefinitely? Doing multiple drops early is tantamount to suicide, because if you don't have vikings and P attacks with 2-3 colossi, you're going to get rolled (especially if your army is still split up and/or if medivacs get sniped by stalkers) and you'll probably be behind on upgrades because chronoboost and putting all your gas into teching to starport, medivacs, and tech lab upgrades gimps either army size or engy bay upgrades.
Drops are good... when toss gets past 3 base. Macro toss is good... on 3 base. In the same mentality that some terrans have when they take the lowground corner 3rd by a watchtower on shakuras to reduce muta/ling runby possibilities, protoss is sticking to 3 base because that's all they need to assemble a deathball that can wipe the floor with terran's army, and taking more bases than that opens up a lot more space for terran attacks.
And really, you think that every single terran pro is just going to do a 1base allin every game tvp?
EDIT:
Yeah you may be right. But I think my point still stands. There isn't as much to whine about given that the Korean Terrans are winning 55% of TvP games while International Terrans are winning 61% of TvP games. It's like Bill Gates complaining that he's only making half of did a few years ago (may not actually be true, just hypothetically speaking), it's hard to feel sorry for them. Until Terran's start winning significantly (statistically significant) less than Protosses do, I don't think they should be saying anything about balance in the matchup.
In general, the only thing most terrans are saying (from what i remember of the 180+page thread) is that TvP isn't fun-balance at the top level, sure I can't say. I mean, I can say that a 1-gate double expand into 7gate pressure that actually has sometimes outright killed a normal 1 expand while teching behind it, and not getting countered by anything except a blind all-in (since it's generally too late to all-in after you scout the third due to frontloaded production and chronoboost) is a little suspicious to me-but that's about it. i know that a lot of terrans around my level are having trouble TvP from the 180+ page thread that was locked just a while ago, and it looks like a lot of terrans are also having trouble in the late game because of the strength of frontloaded anywhere-there's-a-pylon production combined with multiple strong aoe units from protoss that carry well into lategame (as opposed to hellions and tanks which are fairly awful in standup fights). But that's all I can really say since I'm not MMA or Ganzi or Taeja or anyone like that :3
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when 1-1-1 was at the peak i remember a featured TL article commenting on the imbalanced-ness of the 1-1-1 so its not the first time. Also, I also remember Kennigit interviewing Dustin B and asking about terran imbalance (that was painful). Polt recently had an interview with ESFI saying that on some maps he felt there was a problem in TvP.
Its a really weird MU, terran is much stronger in the midgame (medivac timing) terran is not stronger early game its quite even in teh early game. after this mid game timing, there is a short period of even trading before late game where its very hard for terran to win. MKP makes the MU look reasonable late game when hes playing though. only polt, thorzain and puma otherwise make it look winnable at all.
Parting is amazing though, i love his play. Squirtle not so much, i watch his 2 base 6 gate colossi push and i think wow.... he beat several of the top terrans and it wasnt even close and he did no micro or anything special.
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Polt used a stim push in g2 IPL4 against MC with a 2 rax after denying MC's scouting probe, outright killing him and his 1 gate fast expand as a result.
Terrans jsut have to start punishing greedy toss and stop complaining about their macro. Protoss sux at harassing/pressuring that's why they almost always completly relie on 2 base all ins or late game death balls. Terrans have the ability to pressure harder, harras better. If you don't use it, you're not using your greates advantage. That's like a toss not opting for a deathball lategame
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I know the odds are against him, but I'd really like to see Nada advance! Nada fighting!
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The problem with the TvP matchup lately is that if you let protoss build up an economy and get into the late game, you are in trouble. Maybe what terrans should be doing is playing the matchup like they do vs zerg, using hellions for econ damage and multi-pronged drops to snipe off buildings. In a head on engagement with equal skill it will usually be the protoss that comes out ahead.
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I think it's funny that people are just now aware of how good Squirtle is. No one gave two shits about Oz until after winter arena, no one cared about Heart until Columbus, and now Squirtle. I've been following these 3 players for over a year now and it's great to see some of my favorites finally getting recognition(seems ironic to me that top tier korean players almost have to get foreign results to be recognized).
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United States32942 Posts
On April 12 2012 10:46 INTOtheVOID wrote:
I think it's funny that people are just now aware of how good Squirtle is. No one gave two shits about Oz until after winter arena, no one cared about Heart until Columbus, and now Squirtle. I've been following these 3 players for over a year now and it's great to see some of my favorites finally getting recognition(seems ironic to me that top tier korean players almost have to get foreign results to be recognized).
No one watches GSL, but little do the outsiders know that it's the best circle-jerk in town!
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Again, I think a lot of this comes down to maps. Most maps with wide naturals are gone and most naturals now can be blocked with 2-3 forcefields... I think you see this really evident in the number of sentries the protoss are building. Several months ago, it was 7-8 sentries but I think it yesterday's Parting games, he was quite comfortable with 4?
What does this mean? Previously, Protoss had to dump the gas into sentries in early game vs terrans if they wanted to defend their naturals from the bio. When the terrans saw this, they had 2 options, medivacs/ghosts. Then the protoss countered with colossi/HTs. A lot of terrans tried to hit this stim, combat shield timing with medivacs/ghost push before AoEs for protoss were out. They were sometimes able to win outright with this timing or got the protoss to pull probes.
With the number of sentries lowered, protoss are able to start their tech much earlier (if they did this before, the bio would just kill them) which means this timing window got a lot smaller (and on some big maps, non-existant)... ForGG actually hit a sick timing on Daybreak at the 3rd and EMP'ed the sentries... But storm got done just in time and he got repeled by the HTs and warpins...
Again, I would like to say Parting's map vision and HT control are amazing... But I don't think his entry storm build would have been possible on early maps (TDA, Belshir, etc) where the natural is more expose. But I think this is really hard to balance because expose natural = T advantage
And interesting side effect of this is that we see less 2 base all-ins (MC style) because 4 sentries aren't enough to push vs bunkers... Instead of punishing quick 3 base terrans with a gateway/sentry push, protoss just take a quick third.
If someone has time, I think it would be interesting to see how many sentries protoss players build on different maps.
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seems like Squirtle has a fairly good chance since his opponents are not particularly good at playing vP.
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How do you propose saving your ghosts in the offchance you lose an engagement?
Lol. It's not "off chance". You need to win the engagement. If you have bad positioning and you lose you deserve to lose your ghosts.
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This is possibly the most disgusting whine thread I have ever seen.
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On April 12 2012 10:46 INTOtheVOID wrote:
I think it's funny that people are just now aware of how good Squirtle is. No one gave two shits about Oz until after winter arena, no one cared about Heart until Columbus, and now Squirtle. I've been following these 3 players for over a year now and it's great to see some of my favorites finally getting recognition(seems ironic to me that top tier korean players almost have to get foreign results to be recognized).
No one cares.
I find the PvT matchup logical. Early vs late, etc. I find it hard to resist making balance posts when the OP seems to call for it.
This article also shows me that Nada may have a chance. His ability to survive is remarkable.
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lol, straight up qq about TvP. It's true tbh if you watched Polt vs Parting last night. 10 HTs spread out good enough to come in and storm the shit outta bio force 1 by 1. I feel really bad for Terran right now.
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On April 12 2012 09:17 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 08:27 power-overwhelming wrote:
Honestly.. Terrans decided it would be a good idea to take Protoss in a macro game right when Protoss learned how good late game units can be. Don't know why Terrans stopped doing multi drops early aggression. It's like "okay, lets play tvp the protoss way, and if we lose we can always whine". There is still no stopping properly executed 1/1/1 or any stim timing attacks that would render any late game Toss useless.
If only MVP was healthy, at least terran whine would go away. Really? How many times did you see 1-1-1 in IPL4? How many times have you seen it in this season's code S? Why would ANY pro do a stim all-in timing when forcefields can stop it indefinitely?
Haha, not sure why you even bothered replying to that, Stim timing attacks unstoppable? hilarious.
To be honest, PartinG is just playing at a much higher level than other protoss right now. He doesn't hit his storms neccesarily because he has ultra god like multitasking, but because his map awareness is so good, he has sooooo many observers on the field, I can recall him having over 8 stationary observers at key locations at the one time, no other protoss does this. And obviously the spread out HT's, no one does that either.
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On April 12 2012 07:24 testthewest wrote:
Honestly: Why that much whining when toss wins?
I got a ban (!!) just for saying: Medivac drops are too efficient.
Then comes a author from TL and gives us "aged whine" for 3 paragraphs, just because protoss won their group, even telling us: "PartinG and Oz proved the Terran players correct by being downright unstoppable once they had multiple bases, storm, and mass upgrades".
From these words, you must thing: Whoa, these toss must be real IMBA, winning a lot of stuff.
But the truth is: the last 2 MLGS, the IPL4 and most of the GSL in recent time were won by terran. Last toss GSL victory is over a year old - in a game thes not even that much older.
Instead of singing praises about the new toss generation that might finally win something, you start complaining.
When this GSL is again going to a terran (or zerg), will you still sing your tune?
I wish a site, that so readily bans people for saying something is OP, would not be complaining so much about game balance.
How is this different from the article that started the sad Zealot BS?
Its not like they haven´t done it before.... I really don´t like when this kind of articles ¨balance whine¨ because people actually take it so seriously. Especially since they see it as a official TL balance whine which makes them think they can whine all they want.
After the sad Zealot article everybody was whinning about PvT
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So because two of the best protoss in the world got out of their group, TvP is impossible? ...
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I'll admit, I've never had a problem with PvT mu on ladder in masters league, I lose to zergs most commonly and pvp (ugh). But, it's pretty sweet seeing so many brotoss in GSL. Hopefully, it will never become GOMPvP one day.
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On April 12 2012 02:42 ooozer wrote:
OP's ist hella biased in my opinion.
Yes, as a protoss player I do admit,: Late Game PvT favors toss, even though it's not unbeatable (I fear blanket emp the most).
But, instead of only demanding stronger late game, terrans should start consider the overall matchup. Balancing the terran late game would mean, that they own protoss early game, have a slight edge in the mid and equal chances late game. That's not balanced aswell. Strenghten terrans late game also means that early and early to mid game has to be weakened. How are you going to accomplish that? Buffing mech? That would mean terrans get 2 possible late game paths (bio can still kill a protoss deathball) whereas protoss only has their 1-boring-deathball? that wouldn't be fair aswell. Making bio weaker makes protoss 2 base pushes stronger, also imbalanced.
So instead of complaining about toss, why not watch how the meta game evolves? Exactly the same thing terrans said to toss in the sad-zealot-period. 2 toss advances, protoss imba? What about the time we had almost no toss in GSL? Are the statistics favouring toss?Do toss win tournaments left an right? Squirtle was the only toss after pool play, think of that..
I agree completely. I'd prefer it if TL kept the balance whine to the 'Designated Balance Discussion Thread', there is no need to bring it here.
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TvP is hard but i think its stupid to actually write/publish an article that starts off IMBALANCED. Esp after a terran just won ipl4. Its obvious that both terran and protoss can win games and that people are still experimenting with the matchup to see what works best. I think that its actually a very interesting time to be watching tvp because players like polt, mkp have been really pushing how the matchup is played.
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So silly. Trying to make up for the Dead president's thread when tree called a spade a spade. Ridiculous actually.
The proper context would be a PvT matchup where it wasn't a miracle for a Toss to win and where winrates are apporach 50% again. Also, Toss kill moves show up with larger armies later in the game rather than early on. There are certain tech Toss just needs in order to be aggressive. Charge and Collosi namely. Parting has shown quite brilliantly how Templar should be used- defensively.If you look at his games he rarely moves the ungodly and almost unwieldily slow templar forward to storm but rather lets the Terran move into the storm.
Early game PvT is still questionable. The inability of toss to put pressure on Terran in a lot of cases besides direct pressure is a significant and non-trivial problem with the viability of sc2 as an esport.
In a few months we'll realize how important the large map sizes have been and the easy thirds have been to getting an acceptable P winrate. When we start trying to add some more diversity into the map pool again we'll end up with the summer all over again. Winrates look very sensitive to map design.
Now onto the actual group: there's no way squirtle is making it through after all the hype. He's a solid toss but despite his amazing run this weekend his play has looked the weakest of the available code S toss. MMA is kinda screwed because his vP is still crap. Nada though is ripe to upset expectations.
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EPT
