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Felt like I needed to post on this issue to clear things up a little and attempt to bring some reason into the issue.
Backstory(Skip if you want)
Having been an avid participant in MUN (Model United Nations) for a few years and having a professor who has been actively involved in the United Nations and who comes from an international background (dad was a diplomat in Libya and South Africa, taught in Australia and Germany) I had been exposed to the issue of Kony years before 2012. We had spent a day reviewing articles from news sources such as Foreign Policy or the Economist about the impact of Kony and his LRA(Lord's Resistance Army) and his tactics of using child soldiers and the problems it causes.
Immediately following this we had a debate within the class in which we drafted a model resolution for the UN detailing our plan for resolving the issue which included some military intervention until things stabilize. Little did we know that a few days later our school would host the organization Invisible Children to present a movie promoting their cause. Initially I was interested in what they would have to say, but instead of finding a documentary filled with realism, what I saw was an overproduced "movie-style" presentation in which everything seemed scripted and a speaker came in with his carefully predetermined speech. After awhile everyone pretty much forgot about the whole presentation and little effect was had.
After a few months we learned that the UN had directed an operation to capture or kill Kony and US troops and a few other countries were involved in the effort. This is where we pretty much stopped discussing the issue in class. The ICC had also had existing warrants since around 2002.
The Issue Now:
Now years later I see the Kony 2012 video on one of my visits to youtube and watch around 2-3 minutes of it before I have to turn it off. How is this overproduced video going to actually change the situation within Uganda and more recently the Congo? Do the documentary makers even understand what they are dealing with? There is no attention to potential cultural differences, there is no acknowledgement of the current state of the issue, just a prospective guilt trip into supporting the cause. Am I against child soldiers and gross humanitarian offenses? Yes of course I am I don't think you will find many who don't share that view but what is donating to this Invisible Children charity going to do to resolve the problem?
There is good intentions within this movement as I do enjoy people attempting to get more involved in matters that concern the international community rather than focusing on the narrow scope of US politics that are hardly significant in a world theater. However there is quite a few holes in this movement namely including:
Poor financial handling and responsibility:
In the past yest the organization spent $8,676,614. A measly 32% went to actual direct services (found on pg 6 of pdf), with much of the rest going to staff salaries, travel and transport, and film production. Charity Navigator rates their accountability 2/4 stars because they haven't had their finances externally audited. With such a poor ratio why is donating to this specific charity that much benefit, there is much better charities to make more effective use of your charitable donation and an organization run so opaquely is not indicative of a true charity that wishes to see its mission succeed at any cost.
http://c2052482.r82.cf0.rackcdn.com/images/737/original/FY11-Audited Financial Statements.pdf?1320205055
Questionable views:
The Invisible Children group has been an avid supporter of direct military intervention. Their funds in part directly support the Sudanese and Ugandan armies, the same armies accused of looting/rape in their pursuit of the LRA. ( http://www.observer.ug/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=17456:updf-in-kony-hunt-accused-of-rape-looting&catid=78:topstories&Itemid=116 )
Not my opinion of a well run peaceful organization
![[image loading]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_-PnDZmngAhM/Sa_KBGNySiI/AAAAAAAAAJY/uBOfiAysghs/s1600/IMG_2941.JPG)
Too much focus on production/marketing:
If you want a truly effective documentary that helps your cause special effects and production value are not what should be valued, it should not take such a large proportion of donations for "awareness and production" It plays too much off of trying to make the viewer feel empowered and special that they are contributing to a worthy cause than actually convincing and showing evidence that their cause is legitimate and their funding is causing actual progress. They are promoting misinformation that will cause people to become motivated without knowing the proper facts and understanding the complication situation.
![[image loading]](http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17fts4h9g64xgjpg/original.jpg)
Why now?:
This has been an ongoing problem for almost 10 years now and for some reason now is the time we draw the line when the LRA is already on the decline and action has been taken? Admittedly there is still much work to do.
Why Kony?:
Yes Kony is a horrible man and we can all agree his crimes cannot be justified by any means. However what about Assad in Syria what about all the other leaders that are committing atrocious acts that affect far more people.
In conclusion just wanted people to see the reasons behind increasing criticism of this organization. I am not trying to belittle the situation because it is a serious issue one that spills over international borders and causes much conflict and harm. I feel like the average person needs to do more research on their charitable donations because you don't want your money not being used effectively there is plenty of reputable organizations such as Doctors Without Borders that actually use their donations to great effect. Before you immediately pass judgement think about the situation more closely. This is a problem in politics and the world today with increasingly easy access to social media and television meaning that propaganda-esque ads have a great effect on motivating people to various causes without informing them of the proper situation.
TLDR: Why are people so devotedly following the cause of Invisible Children without proper research or support of facts?
I look forward to hearing your comments and discussion about this topic but please remember to keep comments intelligent support w/ evidence when necessary and try to act mature.
Also I would like feedback on if you guys enjoy these blogs on current issues and wish to have more of them such as the decriminalization of drugs blog I posted yesterday I am enjoying the discussion quite a bit myself and like getting people thinking about new issues
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On March 09 2012 09:15 AbstractVoid wrote:
TLDR: Why are people so devotedly following the cause of Invisible Children without proper research or support of facts?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zJyVy.jpg)
Pretty much the same reason they're all over orb's ass, people on the internet love to raise pitchforks about things that mostly don't involve them/happened in the past/etc.
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I count all the awareness programs/products as stuff (traveling around the US to schools like mine, making videos that will actually make people care etc) as part of the "helping uganda 32%" percentage also. Sure i'd love to have more on the actual ground, but one of IC's main goals is to educate the masses (and propaganda like videos work) so of course a lot of its funds will be for educating people.
32% is a very misleading number, suggesting that they pocket the rest or something. I understand your pov but i still support IC in general
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Pretty sure what you stated has been circulating the net by that tumblr blog. My opinion is that we should at least try to support the cause even if we do not support IC. Yes they have terrible spending habits, yes they have questionable views, and certainly, donating money to them blindly will do almost nothing. However, we can all take something positive out of this in that there are a lot of people who care about the well-being of others in different country. There is no reason why the IC controversy should deter people from trying to help the victims in Africa, and there certainly is no reason to build on IC's intentions whether it to be a new organization with better leadership or organized rallies voicing our care to the government. People can criticize IC all they want, but they got the one essential item achieved: exposing this issue to the world populace. Just because IC is screwed up in terms of their management and views, does that mean we as a global community should ignore what the video seeks to do? We are not represented by IC or their views, but by our own. A global movement to solving the source of the problem in Africa can be done with or without IC attached to it.
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![[image loading]](http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/126/75ffe.jpg)
User was warned for this post
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On March 09 2012 09:46 Lightswarm wrote:
Pretty sure what you stated has been circulating the net by that tumblr blog. My opinion is that we should at least try to support the cause even if we do not support IC. Yes they have terrible spending habits, yes they have questionable views, and certainly, donating money to them blindly will do almost nothing. However, we can all take something positive out of this in that there are a lot of people who care about the well-being of others in different country. There is no reason why the IC controversy should deter people from trying to help the victims in Africa, and there certainly is no reason to build on IC's intentions whether it to be a new organization with better leadership or organized rallies voicing our care to the government. People can criticize IC all they want, but they got the one essential item achieved: exposing this issue to the world populace. Just because IC is screwed up in terms of their management and views, does that mean we as a global community should ignore what the video seeks to do? We are not represented by IC or their views, but by our own. A global movement to solving the source of the problem in Africa can be done with or without IC attached to it.
Eh most of my information is common knowledge by a lot of news sites particularly Foreign Policy and the Economist which are two news sites that I trust quite a bit and tend to have intelligent articles. I understand that you see the value in promoting international causes and certainly this is not in any means a bad cause to support. I am not an isolationist and believe strongly in diplomatic relations and helping other countries in need. They did accomplish exposing the issue but in my mind it is MUCH worse to expose an issue with misleading facts and shaky work than allow it to be handled by groups that are designed specifically for the issues (ie UN) Should we ignore it? No we shouldn't be it also shouldn't be given such inflated importance compared to other more pertinent issues yes it was and still is quite a problem and it is already being dealt with in a manner that is achieving quite a bit such as reducing the amount of children from 40,000 to barely 10,000 and the LRA is consistently being hunted down and beaten back.
I do believe it is a good cause but I would caution people from supporting something so fervently without regard to reason or logic and I want people to research and be informed before parting with their money or radically altering their views.
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On March 09 2012 09:53 AbstractVoid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 09:46 Lightswarm wrote:
Pretty sure what you stated has been circulating the net by that tumblr blog. My opinion is that we should at least try to support the cause even if we do not support IC. Yes they have terrible spending habits, yes they have questionable views, and certainly, donating money to them blindly will do almost nothing. However, we can all take something positive out of this in that there are a lot of people who care about the well-being of others in different country. There is no reason why the IC controversy should deter people from trying to help the victims in Africa, and there certainly is no reason to build on IC's intentions whether it to be a new organization with better leadership or organized rallies voicing our care to the government. People can criticize IC all they want, but they got the one essential item achieved: exposing this issue to the world populace. Just because IC is screwed up in terms of their management and views, does that mean we as a global community should ignore what the video seeks to do? We are not represented by IC or their views, but by our own. A global movement to solving the source of the problem in Africa can be done with or without IC attached to it. Eh most of my information is common knowledge by a lot of news sites particularly Foreign Policy and the Economist which are two news sites that I trust quite a bit and tend to have intelligent articles. I understand that you see the value in promoting international causes and certainly this is not in any means a bad cause to support. I am not an isolationist and believe strongly in diplomatic relations and helping other countries in need. They did accomplish exposing the issue but in my mind it is MUCH worse to expose an issue with misleading facts and shaky work than allow it to be handled by groups that are designed specifically for the issues (ie UN) Should we ignore it? No we shouldn't be it also shouldn't be given such inflated importance compared to other more pertinent issues yes it was and still is quite a problem and it is already being dealt with in a manner that is achieving quite a bit such as reducing the amount of children from 40,000 to barely 10,000 and the LRA is consistently being hunted down and beaten back. I do believe it is a good cause but I would caution people from supporting something so fervently without regard to reason or logic and I want people to research and be informed before parting with their money or radically altering their views.
Unfornately, a large portion of the internet will read this as do not support this cause at all. The issue, to my knowledge, is that none of the articles/forum posts/tumblr offer an alternate support to the cause. No one suggested a different/new body that could tackle this issue. What I am suggesting is that we still rally to show support on the capture of Kony, but detach ourself from the IC name. Regardless of what name we call this movement, we still have to show our governments we care and that a permanent solution over the African conflicts has to be found.
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On March 09 2012 10:15 Lightswarm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 09:53 AbstractVoid wrote:On March 09 2012 09:46 Lightswarm wrote:
Pretty sure what you stated has been circulating the net by that tumblr blog. My opinion is that we should at least try to support the cause even if we do not support IC. Yes they have terrible spending habits, yes they have questionable views, and certainly, donating money to them blindly will do almost nothing. However, we can all take something positive out of this in that there are a lot of people who care about the well-being of others in different country. There is no reason why the IC controversy should deter people from trying to help the victims in Africa, and there certainly is no reason to build on IC's intentions whether it to be a new organization with better leadership or organized rallies voicing our care to the government. People can criticize IC all they want, but they got the one essential item achieved: exposing this issue to the world populace. Just because IC is screwed up in terms of their management and views, does that mean we as a global community should ignore what the video seeks to do? We are not represented by IC or their views, but by our own. A global movement to solving the source of the problem in Africa can be done with or without IC attached to it. Eh most of my information is common knowledge by a lot of news sites particularly Foreign Policy and the Economist which are two news sites that I trust quite a bit and tend to have intelligent articles. I understand that you see the value in promoting international causes and certainly this is not in any means a bad cause to support. I am not an isolationist and believe strongly in diplomatic relations and helping other countries in need. They did accomplish exposing the issue but in my mind it is MUCH worse to expose an issue with misleading facts and shaky work than allow it to be handled by groups that are designed specifically for the issues (ie UN) Should we ignore it? No we shouldn't be it also shouldn't be given such inflated importance compared to other more pertinent issues yes it was and still is quite a problem and it is already being dealt with in a manner that is achieving quite a bit such as reducing the amount of children from 40,000 to barely 10,000 and the LRA is consistently being hunted down and beaten back. I do believe it is a good cause but I would caution people from supporting something so fervently without regard to reason or logic and I want people to research and be informed before parting with their money or radically altering their views. Unfornately, a large portion of the internet will read this as do not support this cause at all. The issue, to my knowledge, is that none of the articles/forum posts/tumblr offer an alternate support to the cause. No one suggested a different/new body that could tackle this issue. What I am suggesting is that we still rally to show support on the capture of Kony, but detach ourself from the IC name. Regardless of what name we call this movement, we still have to show our governments we care and that a permanent solution over the African conflicts has to be found.
What effect would us rallying do? We already have troops on the ground beating back the LRA and have proven successful in removing them from Uganda and back into the Congo where their numbers have dwindled and it is only a matter of time before this issue is resolved or Kony is captured. Yes more could be done and we should care and show our support but there is proper channels for this and ignorant facebook posts don't seem to solve anything.
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They're not perfect And yes, the uguandan military has been accused of raping and looting a lot in the past. The uguandan government is pretty shitty too, and in time I would like for something to be done about that too. But right now they are means to an end, and that end is stopping Kony. I think it's worth it. Will using the military of Uguanda (or helping them stop Kony) cause them to rape and loot more than they otherwise would have? No.
As for blowing all that money on videos and advertisement, they tried to talk to the US government and the government didn't listen. Then they got a bunch of people on their side and walked in with a large number, and the result was 100 us military personnel being sent to Uguanda. We have seen other examples of large amounts of people voicing their opinion actually making a difference (Like the homosexual person who was going to get executed, but was saved by litteraly an online petition that caused the government to cancel his execution). So obviously informing people and spreading the word is important and a worthy investment. Besides, people are giving them money off their own free will. Let them look at how they spend their money, and then choose wether or not they want to contribute to that. As for people giving money without doing research and evaluation, I agree that that is always a stupid thing no matter what.
I know it's not perfect, but right now it's our best chance at getting this done. It won't solve Africa's other problems, but it will solve one of them, so why not?
I'm fucking tired of no one caring, and nothing getting done. I'm tired of the injustice and the disgusting sickening actions of humanity going on with no consequences. We now have a chance to change that. Yes, it's only one problem, it's only one asshole, and of course it won't fix everything, but right now we have to capitalize on the momentum that we have. If we try to do it flawlessly we may waste our momentum. We have to go now.
For once, justice has a chance to win. We shouldn't blow this chance. Let's fucking do it.
edit: I am not blindly following it, by the way. I have evaluated the situation and come to this conclusion.
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wait so you didn't even watch the whole thing and saying shit about it lol??
edit: I understand where your coming from and your points for the most part make sense.
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On March 09 2012 10:33 vOdToasT wrote:
They're not perfect And yes, the uguandan military has been accused of raping and looting a lot in the past. The uguandan government is pretty shitty too, and in time I would like for something to be done about that too. But right now they are means to an end, and that end is stopping Kony. I think it's worth it. Will using the military of Uguanda (or helping them stop Kony) cause them to rape and loot more than they otherwise would have? No.
As for blowing all that money on videos and advertisement, they tried to talk to the US government and the government didn't listen. Then they got a bunch of people on their side and walked in with a large number, and the result was 100 us military personnel being sent to Uguanda. So obviously informing people and spreading the word is important and a worthy investment. Besides, people are giving them money off their own free will. Let them look at how they spend their money, and then choose wether or not they want to contribute to that.
I know it's not perfect, but right now it's our best chance at getting this done. It won't solve Africa's other problems, but it will solve one of them, so why not?
I'm fucking tired of no one caring, and nothing getting done. I'm tired of the injustice and the disgusting sickening actions of humanity going on with no consequences. We now have a chance to change that. Yes, it's only one problem, it's only one asshole, and of course it won't fix everything, but right now we have to capitalize on the momentum that we have. If we try to do it flawlessly we may waste our momentum. We have to go now.
For once, justice has a chance to win. We shouldn't blow this chance. Let's fucking do it.
edit: I am not blindly following it, by the way. I have evaluated the situation and come to this conclusion.
Tired of people not caring? lol People don't even care about their own governmental decisions with the rare case of ACTA/SOPA etc they don't even care enough to go vote or be informed about the candidates in elections. You won't be changing much at all with this issue or the issue of people not caring about injustice. Look at the injustice going on in Syria yes people do care about it but what is being done to help them right now. What kind of momentum is being wasted anyway all I see is a bunch of teenagers suddenly acting like they care about an issue they had no idea about 5 minutes ago and only know the measly information the video chose to give them. International awareness is important but this is definitely not the way to go about things.
On March 09 2012 10:37 cmen15 wrote:
wait so you didn't even watch the whole thing and saying shit about it lol??
edit: I understand where your coming from and your points for the most part make sense.
Do I have to? I've seen enough I've seen their full presentation at my school the past few years and independently researched the topic myself I feel like I have enough information to form an educated opinion.
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On March 09 2012 10:40 AbstractVoid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 10:33 vOdToasT wrote:
They're not perfect And yes, the uguandan military has been accused of raping and looting a lot in the past. The uguandan government is pretty shitty too, and in time I would like for something to be done about that too. But right now they are means to an end, and that end is stopping Kony. I think it's worth it. Will using the military of Uguanda (or helping them stop Kony) cause them to rape and loot more than they otherwise would have? No.
As for blowing all that money on videos and advertisement, they tried to talk to the US government and the government didn't listen. Then they got a bunch of people on their side and walked in with a large number, and the result was 100 us military personnel being sent to Uguanda.If people stop caring, those soldiers may be recalled. So obviously informing people and spreading the word is important and a worthy investment. Besides, people are giving them money off their own free will. Let them look at how they spend their money, and then choose wether or not they want to contribute to that.
I know it's not perfect, but right now it's our best chance at getting this done. It won't solve Africa's other problems, but it will solve one of them, so why not?
I'm fucking tired of no one caring, and nothing getting done. I'm tired of the injustice and the disgusting sickening actions of humanity going on with no consequences. We now have a chance to change that. Yes, it's only one problem, it's only one asshole, and of course it won't fix everything, but right now we have to capitalize on the momentum that we have. If we try to do it flawlessly we may waste our momentum. We have to go now.
For once, justice has a chance to win. We shouldn't blow this chance. Let's fucking do it.
edit: I am not blindly following it, by the way. I have evaluated the situation and come to this conclusion. Tired of people not caring? lol People don't even care about their own governmental decisions with the rare case of ACTA/SOPA etc they don't even care enough to go vote or be informed about the candidates in elections. You won't be changing much at all with this issue or the issue of people not caring about injustice. Look at the injustice going on in Syria yes people do care about it but what is being done to help them right now. What kind of momentum is being wasted anyway all I see is a bunch of teenagers suddenly acting like they care about an issue they had no idea about 5 minutes ago and only know the measly information the video chose to give them. International awareness is important but this is definitely not the way to go about things.
The momentum I am talking about is that because a lot of people have showed that they care, USA sent 100 people over there. If people stop caring, those soldiers may be recalled. They asked the government to do it earlier, and the government didn't do it. When they had a shitload of people on their side, the government DID do it. I was skeptical of people "voicing their opinions". I thought it couldn't be effective, but I have seen it work numerous times. A fucking online petition saved a homosexuals life, man. You can't deny the evidence.
And people not caring about what their governments do is exactly my point. Because people so rarely care, we have to capitalize on the moments when they DO care, and use that.
Also, the more we hype this thing up, the more people will hear about it, and the more people will donate money to their protection project that warns villages of incoming raids. Yes, they only put 31% of their money into that, but no one else is putting ANY money in to that, so unless you feel like starting your own organization that will do the same thing but put 50% of the money into it, this is all we have to work with.
And remember, if they hadn't spent all that money on all that advertisement, they wouldn't be enjoying this big boom. Because of this boom, they will get more people to donate money, and this may in turn get them more money in the long run that they can use for their TRI program.
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On March 09 2012 10:44 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 10:40 AbstractVoid wrote:On March 09 2012 10:33 vOdToasT wrote:
They're not perfect And yes, the uguandan military has been accused of raping and looting a lot in the past. The uguandan government is pretty shitty too, and in time I would like for something to be done about that too. But right now they are means to an end, and that end is stopping Kony. I think it's worth it. Will using the military of Uguanda (or helping them stop Kony) cause them to rape and loot more than they otherwise would have? No.
As for blowing all that money on videos and advertisement, they tried to talk to the US government and the government didn't listen. Then they got a bunch of people on their side and walked in with a large number, and the result was 100 us military personnel being sent to Uguanda. So obviously informing people and spreading the word is important and a worthy investment. Besides, people are giving them money off their own free will. Let them look at how they spend their money, and then choose wether or not they want to contribute to that.
I know it's not perfect, but right now it's our best chance at getting this done. It won't solve Africa's other problems, but it will solve one of them, so why not?
I'm fucking tired of no one caring, and nothing getting done. I'm tired of the injustice and the disgusting sickening actions of humanity going on with no consequences. We now have a chance to change that. Yes, it's only one problem, it's only one asshole, and of course it won't fix everything, but right now we have to capitalize on the momentum that we have. If we try to do it flawlessly we may waste our momentum. We have to go now.
For once, justice has a chance to win. We shouldn't blow this chance. Let's fucking do it.
edit: I am not blindly following it, by the way. I have evaluated the situation and come to this conclusion. Tired of people not caring? lol People don't even care about their own governmental decisions with the rare case of ACTA/SOPA etc they don't even care enough to go vote or be informed about the candidates in elections. You won't be changing much at all with this issue or the issue of people not caring about injustice. Look at the injustice going on in Syria yes people do care about it but what is being done to help them right now. What kind of momentum is being wasted anyway all I see is a bunch of teenagers suddenly acting like they care about an issue they had no idea about 5 minutes ago and only know the measly information the video chose to give them. International awareness is important but this is definitely not the way to go about things. The momentum I am talking about is that because a lot of people have showed that they care, USA sent 100 people over there. They asked the government to do it earlier, and the government didn't do it. When they had a shitload of people on their side, the government DID do it. I was skeptical of people "voicing their opinions". I thought it couldn't be effective, but I have seen it work numerous times. A fucking online petition saved a homosexuals life, man. You can't deny the evidence. And people not caring about what their governments do is exactly my point. Because people so rarely care, we have to capitalize on the moments when they DO care, and use that.
Woah this happened long before the IC movement gained the recent support when the 100 soldiers were sent over. Yes the government will listen to popular opinion in some instances but educated opinions are a lot more effective than mass uneducated opinion. Popular opinion is powerful as evidenced in the recent revolutions in some parts of the world I'm not denying the evidence that the people can have great power when united under educated opinion, just warning of believing in something so easily without the facts. Bottom line is there is a lot of ignorant people who will take pride in this cause but rely on misinformation an make legitimate supporters look bad.
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I may be blind, but what's the significance of the military photo in the OP? Is one of them a key person in Invisible Children? I watched the whole video, but I don't recognise any of those people :S. Also, is that the Ugandan Army that they're hanging with or the LRA or what?
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On March 09 2012 10:49 AbstractVoid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 10:44 vOdToasT wrote:On March 09 2012 10:40 AbstractVoid wrote:On March 09 2012 10:33 vOdToasT wrote:
They're not perfect And yes, the uguandan military has been accused of raping and looting a lot in the past. The uguandan government is pretty shitty too, and in time I would like for something to be done about that too. But right now they are means to an end, and that end is stopping Kony. I think it's worth it. Will using the military of Uguanda (or helping them stop Kony) cause them to rape and loot more than they otherwise would have? No.
As for blowing all that money on videos and advertisement, they tried to talk to the US government and the government didn't listen. Then they got a bunch of people on their side and walked in with a large number, and the result was 100 us military personnel being sent to Uguanda. So obviously informing people and spreading the word is important and a worthy investment. Besides, people are giving them money off their own free will. Let them look at how they spend their money, and then choose wether or not they want to contribute to that.
I know it's not perfect, but right now it's our best chance at getting this done. It won't solve Africa's other problems, but it will solve one of them, so why not?
I'm fucking tired of no one caring, and nothing getting done. I'm tired of the injustice and the disgusting sickening actions of humanity going on with no consequences. We now have a chance to change that. Yes, it's only one problem, it's only one asshole, and of course it won't fix everything, but right now we have to capitalize on the momentum that we have. If we try to do it flawlessly we may waste our momentum. We have to go now.
For once, justice has a chance to win. We shouldn't blow this chance. Let's fucking do it.
edit: I am not blindly following it, by the way. I have evaluated the situation and come to this conclusion. Tired of people not caring? lol People don't even care about their own governmental decisions with the rare case of ACTA/SOPA etc they don't even care enough to go vote or be informed about the candidates in elections. You won't be changing much at all with this issue or the issue of people not caring about injustice. Look at the injustice going on in Syria yes people do care about it but what is being done to help them right now. What kind of momentum is being wasted anyway all I see is a bunch of teenagers suddenly acting like they care about an issue they had no idea about 5 minutes ago and only know the measly information the video chose to give them. International awareness is important but this is definitely not the way to go about things. The momentum I am talking about is that because a lot of people have showed that they care, USA sent 100 people over there. They asked the government to do it earlier, and the government didn't do it. When they had a shitload of people on their side, the government DID do it. I was skeptical of people "voicing their opinions". I thought it couldn't be effective, but I have seen it work numerous times. A fucking online petition saved a homosexuals life, man. You can't deny the evidence. And people not caring about what their governments do is exactly my point. Because people so rarely care, we have to capitalize on the moments when they DO care, and use that. Woah this happened long before the IC movement gained the recent support when the 100 soldiers were sent over. Yes the government will listen to popular opinion in some instances but educated opinions are a lot more effective than mass uneducated opinion. Popular opinion is powerful as evidenced in the recent revolutions in some parts of the world I'm not denying the evidence that the people can have great power when united under educated opinion, just warning of believing in something so easily without the facts. Bottom line is there is a lot of ignorant people who will take pride in this cause but rely on misinformation an make legitimate supporters look bad.
Ok, I see what you are saying. This new video came after the soldiers were sent over, and maybe they are spending a bit too much on "propaganda" and too little on TRI, but I think what they are trying to do is raise awareness by so much that the money from donations will make it worth it. Also, this recent surge in popularity basically sealed the deal and made sure that those 100 soldiers are not going to get recalled.
Is all the money they spent going to pay off? I don't know if it actually will, but either way, now that they already spent their money making that video, there's no point in not sharing it, from a pragmatic perspective. More people seeing it leads to more donations which leads to more money for TRI which leads to better protection of the villages that the LRA may kidnap from.
As for uneducated people supporting it without knowing the pros and cons, I agree that it's stupid. But it's not going to change the way I act, because judging this situation from a pragmatic perspective, it still seems like spreading awareness and sharing that video is going to give the best results.
I may be blind, but what's the significance of the military photo in the OP? Is one of them a key person in Invisible Children? I watched the whole video, but I don't recognise any of those people :S. Also, is that the Ugandan Army that they're hanging with or the LRA or what?
White guy to the right is a key member of the invisible children. The other ones may be as well, but I do not reckognize them. I assume they're hanging with the uguandan army in that picture, since they co-operate with them in order to stop Kohy (Or at least the american soldiers do). Now, the uguandan army isn't exactly a paragon of virtue either, which is one reason why it can be a bit controversial.
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On March 09 2012 10:56 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 10:49 AbstractVoid wrote:On March 09 2012 10:44 vOdToasT wrote:On March 09 2012 10:40 AbstractVoid wrote:On March 09 2012 10:33 vOdToasT wrote:
They're not perfect And yes, the uguandan military has been accused of raping and looting a lot in the past. The uguandan government is pretty shitty too, and in time I would like for something to be done about that too. But right now they are means to an end, and that end is stopping Kony. I think it's worth it. Will using the military of Uguanda (or helping them stop Kony) cause them to rape and loot more than they otherwise would have? No.
As for blowing all that money on videos and advertisement, they tried to talk to the US government and the government didn't listen. Then they got a bunch of people on their side and walked in with a large number, and the result was 100 us military personnel being sent to Uguanda. So obviously informing people and spreading the word is important and a worthy investment. Besides, people are giving them money off their own free will. Let them look at how they spend their money, and then choose wether or not they want to contribute to that.
I know it's not perfect, but right now it's our best chance at getting this done. It won't solve Africa's other problems, but it will solve one of them, so why not?
I'm fucking tired of no one caring, and nothing getting done. I'm tired of the injustice and the disgusting sickening actions of humanity going on with no consequences. We now have a chance to change that. Yes, it's only one problem, it's only one asshole, and of course it won't fix everything, but right now we have to capitalize on the momentum that we have. If we try to do it flawlessly we may waste our momentum. We have to go now.
For once, justice has a chance to win. We shouldn't blow this chance. Let's fucking do it.
edit: I am not blindly following it, by the way. I have evaluated the situation and come to this conclusion. Tired of people not caring? lol People don't even care about their own governmental decisions with the rare case of ACTA/SOPA etc they don't even care enough to go vote or be informed about the candidates in elections. You won't be changing much at all with this issue or the issue of people not caring about injustice. Look at the injustice going on in Syria yes people do care about it but what is being done to help them right now. What kind of momentum is being wasted anyway all I see is a bunch of teenagers suddenly acting like they care about an issue they had no idea about 5 minutes ago and only know the measly information the video chose to give them. International awareness is important but this is definitely not the way to go about things. The momentum I am talking about is that because a lot of people have showed that they care, USA sent 100 people over there. They asked the government to do it earlier, and the government didn't do it. When they had a shitload of people on their side, the government DID do it. I was skeptical of people "voicing their opinions". I thought it couldn't be effective, but I have seen it work numerous times. A fucking online petition saved a homosexuals life, man. You can't deny the evidence. And people not caring about what their governments do is exactly my point. Because people so rarely care, we have to capitalize on the moments when they DO care, and use that. Woah this happened long before the IC movement gained the recent support when the 100 soldiers were sent over. Yes the government will listen to popular opinion in some instances but educated opinions are a lot more effective than mass uneducated opinion. Popular opinion is powerful as evidenced in the recent revolutions in some parts of the world I'm not denying the evidence that the people can have great power when united under educated opinion, just warning of believing in something so easily without the facts. Bottom line is there is a lot of ignorant people who will take pride in this cause but rely on misinformation an make legitimate supporters look bad. Ok, I see what you are saying. This new video came after the soldiers were sent over, and maybe they are spending a bit too much on "propaganda" and too little on TRI, but I think what they are trying to do is raise awareness by so much that the money from donations will make it worth it. Also, this recent surge in popularity basically sealed the deal and made sure that those 100 soldiers are not going to get recalled. Is all the money they spent going to pay off? I don't know if it actually will, but either way, now that they already spent their money making that video, there's no point in not sharing it, from a pragmatic perspective. More people seeing it leads to more donations which leads to more money for TRI which leads to better protection of the villages that the LRA may kidnap from. As for uneducated people supporting it without knowing the pros and cons, I agree that it's stupid. But it's not going to change the way I act, because judging this situation from a pragmatic perspective, it still seems like spreading awareness and sharing that video is going to give the best results.
They wouldn't have gotten recalled anyway we have a duty as a member of the UN to help out in international issues such as these. I don't agree that spreading this video is the correct thing to do if you want to raise awareness of an issue facts and real issues are much more important as an informative tool than a propaganda video that plays off emotional/guilt trip effect. If anything changes because of this movement I would be glad to hear about it but I would venture a guess that not much will change about our involvement in the issue at all.
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On March 09 2012 11:00 AbstractVoid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 10:56 vOdToasT wrote:On March 09 2012 10:49 AbstractVoid wrote:On March 09 2012 10:44 vOdToasT wrote:On March 09 2012 10:40 AbstractVoid wrote:On March 09 2012 10:33 vOdToasT wrote:
They're not perfect And yes, the uguandan military has been accused of raping and looting a lot in the past. The uguandan government is pretty shitty too, and in time I would like for something to be done about that too. But right now they are means to an end, and that end is stopping Kony. I think it's worth it. Will using the military of Uguanda (or helping them stop Kony) cause them to rape and loot more than they otherwise would have? No.
As for blowing all that money on videos and advertisement, they tried to talk to the US government and the government didn't listen. Then they got a bunch of people on their side and walked in with a large number, and the result was 100 us military personnel being sent to Uguanda. So obviously informing people and spreading the word is important and a worthy investment. Besides, people are giving them money off their own free will. Let them look at how they spend their money, and then choose wether or not they want to contribute to that.
I know it's not perfect, but right now it's our best chance at getting this done. It won't solve Africa's other problems, but it will solve one of them, so why not?
I'm fucking tired of no one caring, and nothing getting done. I'm tired of the injustice and the disgusting sickening actions of humanity going on with no consequences. We now have a chance to change that. Yes, it's only one problem, it's only one asshole, and of course it won't fix everything, but right now we have to capitalize on the momentum that we have. If we try to do it flawlessly we may waste our momentum. We have to go now.
For once, justice has a chance to win. We shouldn't blow this chance. Let's fucking do it.
edit: I am not blindly following it, by the way. I have evaluated the situation and come to this conclusion. Tired of people not caring? lol People don't even care about their own governmental decisions with the rare case of ACTA/SOPA etc they don't even care enough to go vote or be informed about the candidates in elections. You won't be changing much at all with this issue or the issue of people not caring about injustice. Look at the injustice going on in Syria yes people do care about it but what is being done to help them right now. What kind of momentum is being wasted anyway all I see is a bunch of teenagers suddenly acting like they care about an issue they had no idea about 5 minutes ago and only know the measly information the video chose to give them. International awareness is important but this is definitely not the way to go about things. The momentum I am talking about is that because a lot of people have showed that they care, USA sent 100 people over there. They asked the government to do it earlier, and the government didn't do it. When they had a shitload of people on their side, the government DID do it. I was skeptical of people "voicing their opinions". I thought it couldn't be effective, but I have seen it work numerous times. A fucking online petition saved a homosexuals life, man. You can't deny the evidence. And people not caring about what their governments do is exactly my point. Because people so rarely care, we have to capitalize on the moments when they DO care, and use that. Woah this happened long before the IC movement gained the recent support when the 100 soldiers were sent over. Yes the government will listen to popular opinion in some instances but educated opinions are a lot more effective than mass uneducated opinion. Popular opinion is powerful as evidenced in the recent revolutions in some parts of the world I'm not denying the evidence that the people can have great power when united under educated opinion, just warning of believing in something so easily without the facts. Bottom line is there is a lot of ignorant people who will take pride in this cause but rely on misinformation an make legitimate supporters look bad. Ok, I see what you are saying. This new video came after the soldiers were sent over, and maybe they are spending a bit too much on "propaganda" and too little on TRI, but I think what they are trying to do is raise awareness by so much that the money from donations will make it worth it. Also, this recent surge in popularity basically sealed the deal and made sure that those 100 soldiers are not going to get recalled. Is all the money they spent going to pay off? I don't know if it actually will, but either way, now that they already spent their money making that video, there's no point in not sharing it, from a pragmatic perspective. More people seeing it leads to more donations which leads to more money for TRI which leads to better protection of the villages that the LRA may kidnap from. As for uneducated people supporting it without knowing the pros and cons, I agree that it's stupid. But it's not going to change the way I act, because judging this situation from a pragmatic perspective, it still seems like spreading awareness and sharing that video is going to give the best results. They wouldn't have gotten recalled anyway we have a duty as a member of the UN to help out in international issues such as these. I don't agree that spreading this video is the correct thing to do if you want to raise awareness of an issue facts and real issues are much more important as an informative tool than a propaganda video that plays off emotional/guilt trip effect. If anything changes because of this movement I would be glad to hear about it but I would venture a guess that not much will change about our involvement in the issue at all.
But a propaganda video that plays off emotions is so much more effective for stupid people. I actually learned about this whole situation by watching news (a legimitate news source, not like Fox or anything). In the story, they covered the way that Invisible Children uses their money, quoting the exact percentages. However, sending that news story to the average person is probably not going to be as effective as sending The IC's propaganda video. If I think the person is intelligent enough, however, I will tell them about it myself (giving the full perspective) or I'll send them the news story. I'm pragmatic.
As for the US soldiers, I admit I don't know how commited they are. I assumed that they could be recalled any time the US government wanted to, but if that's not the case, very well.
Lastly, there is one thing that is likely to happend because of this movement, and that is an increase in donations. 31% of that (if they continue spending their money the same way) would go to TRI, which is simply useful. Maybe they would end up getting more money to TRI if they spent less on advertisement, but since they're going to be spending their money however they wish, I might as well just try to get more donations in by using the advertisement that they produce. If I can make people eat beans and rice instead of roast beef for one day and give the money they saved to TRI instead, I'll gladly do it.
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On March 09 2012 11:06 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 11:00 AbstractVoid wrote:On March 09 2012 10:56 vOdToasT wrote:On March 09 2012 10:49 AbstractVoid wrote:On March 09 2012 10:44 vOdToasT wrote:On March 09 2012 10:40 AbstractVoid wrote:On March 09 2012 10:33 vOdToasT wrote:
They're not perfect And yes, the uguandan military has been accused of raping and looting a lot in the past. The uguandan government is pretty shitty too, and in time I would like for something to be done about that too. But right now they are means to an end, and that end is stopping Kony. I think it's worth it. Will using the military of Uguanda (or helping them stop Kony) cause them to rape and loot more than they otherwise would have? No.
As for blowing all that money on videos and advertisement, they tried to talk to the US government and the government didn't listen. Then they got a bunch of people on their side and walked in with a large number, and the result was 100 us military personnel being sent to Uguanda. So obviously informing people and spreading the word is important and a worthy investment. Besides, people are giving them money off their own free will. Let them look at how they spend their money, and then choose wether or not they want to contribute to that.
I know it's not perfect, but right now it's our best chance at getting this done. It won't solve Africa's other problems, but it will solve one of them, so why not?
I'm fucking tired of no one caring, and nothing getting done. I'm tired of the injustice and the disgusting sickening actions of humanity going on with no consequences. We now have a chance to change that. Yes, it's only one problem, it's only one asshole, and of course it won't fix everything, but right now we have to capitalize on the momentum that we have. If we try to do it flawlessly we may waste our momentum. We have to go now.
For once, justice has a chance to win. We shouldn't blow this chance. Let's fucking do it.
edit: I am not blindly following it, by the way. I have evaluated the situation and come to this conclusion. Tired of people not caring? lol People don't even care about their own governmental decisions with the rare case of ACTA/SOPA etc they don't even care enough to go vote or be informed about the candidates in elections. You won't be changing much at all with this issue or the issue of people not caring about injustice. Look at the injustice going on in Syria yes people do care about it but what is being done to help them right now. What kind of momentum is being wasted anyway all I see is a bunch of teenagers suddenly acting like they care about an issue they had no idea about 5 minutes ago and only know the measly information the video chose to give them. International awareness is important but this is definitely not the way to go about things. The momentum I am talking about is that because a lot of people have showed that they care, USA sent 100 people over there. They asked the government to do it earlier, and the government didn't do it. When they had a shitload of people on their side, the government DID do it. I was skeptical of people "voicing their opinions". I thought it couldn't be effective, but I have seen it work numerous times. A fucking online petition saved a homosexuals life, man. You can't deny the evidence. And people not caring about what their governments do is exactly my point. Because people so rarely care, we have to capitalize on the moments when they DO care, and use that. Woah this happened long before the IC movement gained the recent support when the 100 soldiers were sent over. Yes the government will listen to popular opinion in some instances but educated opinions are a lot more effective than mass uneducated opinion. Popular opinion is powerful as evidenced in the recent revolutions in some parts of the world I'm not denying the evidence that the people can have great power when united under educated opinion, just warning of believing in something so easily without the facts. Bottom line is there is a lot of ignorant people who will take pride in this cause but rely on misinformation an make legitimate supporters look bad. Ok, I see what you are saying. This new video came after the soldiers were sent over, and maybe they are spending a bit too much on "propaganda" and too little on TRI, but I think what they are trying to do is raise awareness by so much that the money from donations will make it worth it. Also, this recent surge in popularity basically sealed the deal and made sure that those 100 soldiers are not going to get recalled. Is all the money they spent going to pay off? I don't know if it actually will, but either way, now that they already spent their money making that video, there's no point in not sharing it, from a pragmatic perspective. More people seeing it leads to more donations which leads to more money for TRI which leads to better protection of the villages that the LRA may kidnap from. As for uneducated people supporting it without knowing the pros and cons, I agree that it's stupid. But it's not going to change the way I act, because judging this situation from a pragmatic perspective, it still seems like spreading awareness and sharing that video is going to give the best results. They wouldn't have gotten recalled anyway we have a duty as a member of the UN to help out in international issues such as these. I don't agree that spreading this video is the correct thing to do if you want to raise awareness of an issue facts and real issues are much more important as an informative tool than a propaganda video that plays off emotional/guilt trip effect. If anything changes because of this movement I would be glad to hear about it but I would venture a guess that not much will change about our involvement in the issue at all. But a propaganda video that plays off emotions is so much more effective for stupid people. I actually learned about this whole situation by watching news (a legimitate news source, not like Fox or anything). In the story, they covered the way that Invisible Children uses their money, quoting the exact percentages. However, sending that news story to the average person is probably not going to be as effective as sending The IC's propaganda video. If I think the person is intelligent enough, however, I will tell them about it myself (giving the full perspective) or I'll send them the news story. I'm pragmatic. As for the US soldiers, I admit I don't know how commited they are. I assumed that they could be recalled any time the US government wanted to, but if that's not the case, very well.
I feel like supporting this issue by the use of propaganda videos is setting a terrible example. I do agree people NEED to start caring about international or even national issues it is their world and future at risk and they need to care about it instead of just sitting by. Why should we single out this issue though? It is setting a bad example for future problems in allowing this situation to develop how it has.
For the US soldiers they are committed there until the problem is resolved I suppose the government could recall them but it would be met with harsh disdain from our allies and citizens.
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On March 09 2012 11:10 AbstractVoid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 11:06 vOdToasT wrote:On March 09 2012 11:00 AbstractVoid wrote:On March 09 2012 10:56 vOdToasT wrote:On March 09 2012 10:49 AbstractVoid wrote:On March 09 2012 10:44 vOdToasT wrote:On March 09 2012 10:40 AbstractVoid wrote:On March 09 2012 10:33 vOdToasT wrote:
They're not perfect And yes, the uguandan military has been accused of raping and looting a lot in the past. The uguandan government is pretty shitty too, and in time I would like for something to be done about that too. But right now they are means to an end, and that end is stopping Kony. I think it's worth it. Will using the military of Uguanda (or helping them stop Kony) cause them to rape and loot more than they otherwise would have? No.
As for blowing all that money on videos and advertisement, they tried to talk to the US government and the government didn't listen. Then they got a bunch of people on their side and walked in with a large number, and the result was 100 us military personnel being sent to Uguanda. So obviously informing people and spreading the word is important and a worthy investment. Besides, people are giving them money off their own free will. Let them look at how they spend their money, and then choose wether or not they want to contribute to that.
I know it's not perfect, but right now it's our best chance at getting this done. It won't solve Africa's other problems, but it will solve one of them, so why not?
I'm fucking tired of no one caring, and nothing getting done. I'm tired of the injustice and the disgusting sickening actions of humanity going on with no consequences. We now have a chance to change that. Yes, it's only one problem, it's only one asshole, and of course it won't fix everything, but right now we have to capitalize on the momentum that we have. If we try to do it flawlessly we may waste our momentum. We have to go now.
For once, justice has a chance to win. We shouldn't blow this chance. Let's fucking do it.
edit: I am not blindly following it, by the way. I have evaluated the situation and come to this conclusion. Tired of people not caring? lol People don't even care about their own governmental decisions with the rare case of ACTA/SOPA etc they don't even care enough to go vote or be informed about the candidates in elections. You won't be changing much at all with this issue or the issue of people not caring about injustice. Look at the injustice going on in Syria yes people do care about it but what is being done to help them right now. What kind of momentum is being wasted anyway all I see is a bunch of teenagers suddenly acting like they care about an issue they had no idea about 5 minutes ago and only know the measly information the video chose to give them. International awareness is important but this is definitely not the way to go about things. The momentum I am talking about is that because a lot of people have showed that they care, USA sent 100 people over there. They asked the government to do it earlier, and the government didn't do it. When they had a shitload of people on their side, the government DID do it. I was skeptical of people "voicing their opinions". I thought it couldn't be effective, but I have seen it work numerous times. A fucking online petition saved a homosexuals life, man. You can't deny the evidence. And people not caring about what their governments do is exactly my point. Because people so rarely care, we have to capitalize on the moments when they DO care, and use that. Woah this happened long before the IC movement gained the recent support when the 100 soldiers were sent over. Yes the government will listen to popular opinion in some instances but educated opinions are a lot more effective than mass uneducated opinion. Popular opinion is powerful as evidenced in the recent revolutions in some parts of the world I'm not denying the evidence that the people can have great power when united under educated opinion, just warning of believing in something so easily without the facts. Bottom line is there is a lot of ignorant people who will take pride in this cause but rely on misinformation an make legitimate supporters look bad. Ok, I see what you are saying. This new video came after the soldiers were sent over, and maybe they are spending a bit too much on "propaganda" and too little on TRI, but I think what they are trying to do is raise awareness by so much that the money from donations will make it worth it. Also, this recent surge in popularity basically sealed the deal and made sure that those 100 soldiers are not going to get recalled. Is all the money they spent going to pay off? I don't know if it actually will, but either way, now that they already spent their money making that video, there's no point in not sharing it, from a pragmatic perspective. More people seeing it leads to more donations which leads to more money for TRI which leads to better protection of the villages that the LRA may kidnap from. As for uneducated people supporting it without knowing the pros and cons, I agree that it's stupid. But it's not going to change the way I act, because judging this situation from a pragmatic perspective, it still seems like spreading awareness and sharing that video is going to give the best results. They wouldn't have gotten recalled anyway we have a duty as a member of the UN to help out in international issues such as these. I don't agree that spreading this video is the correct thing to do if you want to raise awareness of an issue facts and real issues are much more important as an informative tool than a propaganda video that plays off emotional/guilt trip effect. If anything changes because of this movement I would be glad to hear about it but I would venture a guess that not much will change about our involvement in the issue at all. But a propaganda video that plays off emotions is so much more effective for stupid people. I actually learned about this whole situation by watching news (a legitimate news source, not like Fox or anything). In the story, they covered the way that Invisible Children uses their money, quoting the exact percentages. However, sending that news story to the average person is probably not going to be as effective as sending The IC's propaganda video. If I think the person is intelligent enough, however, I will tell them about it myself (giving the full perspective) or I'll send them the news story. I'm pragmatic. As for the US soldiers, I admit I don't know how committed they are. I assumed that they could be recalled any time the US government wanted to, but if that's not the case, very well. I feel like supporting this issue by the use of propaganda videos is setting a terrible example. I do agree people NEED to start caring about international or even national issues it is their world and future at risk and they need to care about it instead of just sitting by. Why should we single out this issue though? It is setting a bad example for future problems in allowing this situation to develop how it has. For the US soldiers they are committed there until the problem is resolved I suppose the government could recall them but it would be met with harsh disdain from our allies and citizens.
The more people know and care about this, the less likely the soldiers are to be recalled since they will recieve more disdain. I agree that it's a weak point, though, so I'll drop it.
We should not single out this issue. In the grand scale of things, I actually think that this is quite a minor issue. There are more important matters. However, I have no idea how to make people care in general, like I do. I also don't know how to fix the things I care about (I think about it quite a lot, still haven't come up with any solutions).
Anyway, all I am saying is that this is one issue that is getting a lot of momentum, and even though there are other, probably more important issues, spreading awareness about this one isn't going to hurt the other issues, right?
It's just too good of an opportunity to pass up. Why waste the potential donations that could lead to additional warning systems being installed?
I know this whole thing is rather stupid (not the work of TRI, installing warning devices, but the other stuff you mentioned), but pragmatically, I see no reason to not go along with it. Of course I also want people to actually think about what they support, and to do more research, rather than support based on emotions.
However, you did convince me to spread awareness using better methods.. I should try to get people to do research and learn about this issue logically, not try to sway them with emotions. If I can get them in to the latter mindset, they'll learn about the rest of the world, too. I'll only use propaganda as a last resort.
Another problem is that if someone gives 10$ to the IC, that's 10$ he could have given to a potentially more effective organization like Doctors Without Borders, which I admit is a fair point. But still, it's harder to get people to give money to Doctors Without Borders, because they don't have expensive emotionally charged videos like IC 
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Wow, your dad was a diplomat in Libya? What were his thoughts about Libya back then (before the civil war)?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/40/75ffe.jpg/)
