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Hello everyone. In an attampet to both clarify the metagame to myself and get some feedback I decided to layout my strategic overview of the different match-ups. I'm not going to go into insane detail as this is not meant to be a guide but rather an overview of strategic mindset I have when going into every matchup. I would love to both hear yours and your comments on mine, espically regarding ZvT as that is where I feel the most ignorant.
ZvZ: - Hatch 1st with a defensive mindset. ( 14 hatch, 15 pool, 18 gas, 17ov) - Single spine when hatch finishes - Against hatch 1st: Speed then bane nest. - Against 1 base: Bane nest then banes as required (2-6 to hold then speed). - If I hold an early all-in with significant lead: Get +1/+1 roach speed and end the game - Mid game Muta/ling with spines to defend roach attacks, stay one base ahead of opponent. - Against Muta: get multiple spores in bases and infestors, use mutas defensivly and poke his expansions with lings. - Against Hydra/Roach with no infestors: Harass with muta while transition into Infestor/bane/ling. - Once on full economy ( 8-10 geysers ) Get Infestor/Broodlord army with ling/bane support. - Upgrade foucs is on mellee and carpace as well as air ( either damage or carpace but not both ) Infestors are massed. to sum up >> Early game: Defensive Banes Mid game: Muta/Ling => Infestor Late game: Infestor/Broodlrd supported by ling/bane
ZvP: - 14 Pool into 16 Hatch ( 15 gas ) - 4 early lings for map control and scouting - Against FFE: Pull off gas after ling speed and take early third ( 5:00 ) Drone to 44 then retake gas. Lair and macro hatch. @6:30 two injects worth of lings to hold zealot play. - Against Gate Expand: ling speed then lair @ling speed constant lings take third. - At Lair: Hydra den and spire, scout with overseer - If protoss moves out before mutas make 8 hydras and lings and push back with the hydra/ling while making mutas. - If Protoss doesn't move out or goes for silly robotic play, punish with quick mutas. - Harass constantly with mutas while expanding. - Once on full economy ( 8-10 geysers ) Get Broodlord/Infestor army with roach/hydra support. - Upgrade foucs is on range and carpae. to sum up >> Early game: Speedling Mid game: Hydra/Ling => Muta Late game: Broodlrd/Infestor supported by Roach/Hydra
ZvT: - Drone scout on 10 - Hatch 1st on 15. Pool timing decided by scout drone: 11/11 - 14 pool 12/14 - 15 pool gas 1st - 16 pool - Take gas for early speed ( 17 ) then pull workers off gas. - Produce 2 early lings for scouting - Get an early Spine for helion defense - Get an Creep tumor from 1st energy cycle and constantly push it. Get creep queen when possible - Retake gas at ~40 supply - Sacrifice Overlord at 5:15. - Hold any early attack with Ling/Bane and make sure to spore up when you suspect banshess. - Get lair then infestation pit and baneling speed, double upgrade lings. - Against helions (what else) Retake map control with infesotr/ling and get third base. - Get spire on three bases - Harass constantly with mutas while expanding. - Once on full economy ( 8-10 geysers ) Get Broodlord/Infestor army with corruptor/bane support. to sum up >> Early game: Speedling/Bane Mid game: Ling/Infestor/Bane => Muta Late game: Broodlrd/Infestor supported by Corruptor/Bane
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I love the idea of this. I think I asked a mod about doing this once (State of the Metagame type of thread) and he said it was a bad idea.
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- If I hold an early all-in with significant lead: Get +1/+1 roach speed and end the game
1/1 roach speed? I don't agree with this, I think the common response to having an early game lead is just +1 roach/ling all-in on hatch tech. Not lair tech or 1/1. And 2/0 is way better than 1/1.
- Against Muta: get multiple spores in bases and infestors, use mutas defensivly and poke his expansions with lings. - Against Hydra/Roach with no infestors: Harass with muta while transition into Infestor/bane/ling.
Right now the 'standard' in ZvZ is third before lair. So there's sort of two options I think against mutas: 1. Get third and secure with 2 base infestors or 3 base mass spore, then go roach/queen/infestor and just do a deathpush. Or, go mutas yourself with better econ. If the opponent goes super fast lair, like 30 supply mutas, then you either go 50 supply lair (later lair, better econ, defend with spores) with later mutas on better econ, or just kill him with mass roaches (hope he doesnt have enough spines i guess).
Against roach play when going mutas, you just get speedbanes to 'counter' hydras and push when at like 24 mutas with ling/bane and overrun the opponent, as he won't have enough FG to deal with it.
- Once on full economy ( 8-10 geysers ) Get Infestor/Broodlord army with ling/bane support.
Depends on how the game went:
1. Muta vs Muta: Once you have like 25 mutas, you go infestors. Making more mutas puts you wayyyy too susceptible to infestors, and while going infestors is vulnerable to being overrun by mass muta, you just sort of turtle behind spores until infestors pop. If the opponent didn't tech up, then you pretty much have a game winning lead with ling/infestor/muta. If you both get infestors properly, it goes into Ultra/infestor/muta, and whoever can field the most ultras I suppose, but of course you need mutas to support the ultras to defend against roaches and you need infestors to defend against mutas and you need ultras to defend the infestors against lings, and so on, so the game is always vulnerable to a tech switch if you lose all your mutas or infestors.
2. Roach vs Roach: Basically just roach/hydra vs roach/hydra. You can't go infestors, or you'll die really. So if you go infestors to secure your third, the opponent just has their third and wins with mass roaches. If you both go third before lair with roaches, then you just max out with roach/hydra vs roach/hydra. If anyone techs to infestors, they'll die to mass roach/hydra. If you are too passive against someone teching to infestors, when they pop you might be in trouble, so you have to constantly poke and prod. Once at 200/200, you get infestors.
But I really think the metagame is shifting toward nydus play instead of hive tech. Once at 200/200 roach/infestor vs roach/infestor, both players get nydus. If someone goes hive, the nydus player will just tear them apart by being all over the place and having a bigger army. Once broodlords come out, the nydus player just gets corruptors to deal with them while just ruining the hive player's econ. There hasn't really been many games where it wasn't decided by the roac/hydra/infestor stage, due to the hyperaggression with roach/hydra vs roach/hydra, but I think nydus base trade is teh better choice than broodlords.
- Upgrade foucs is on mellee and carpace as well as air ( either damage or carpace but not both ) Infestors are massed. to sum up >>
I don't know, I think there are a few critical upgrades - +1 missile, carapace, but otherwise upgrades aren't that important. If it's roach/hydra vs roac/hydra, then it's critical to get +2 missile and double evo, as roach/hydra vs roach/hydra is so hard to really win unless someone techs too early, so upgrades are quite important in that kind of fight, but otherwise, no. I guess since roach hydra vs roach hydra is most zvz, i'm kind of contradicting myself...
I'd sum it up as this though:
ZvZ: Third before Lair ~50 supply, get +1 roaches to apply pressure and secure your third. You can't go mutas when going third before lair against roaches, because you can't spine 2 different locations with 5+ spines, so most ZvZ nowadays is roach/hydra vs roach/hydra, since third > mutas, even though mutas are technically the stronger army in a straight up fight. Use Roach/hydra vs roach/hydra until 200/200. If someone techs too fast before max, they basically die. Nydus
If you can go mutas because of a lead or you know the opponent isn't massing roaches, yea muta vs muta, into infestors, into ultras basically.
For ZvT...
I don't think drone scouting is important. I think most pros actually dont drone scout. I drone scout, but I should probably stop. There's nothing a drone scout really tells you that's important...
Pool timing I don't think matters based on drone. The larger the map, the later you can take it, but 15 is plenty fine. No one uses a reactive pool timing based on a 10 drone scout ><
As for gas timing... what I've noticed is that most pros don't get ANY gas until 45 supply, and then take all 4 and a macro hatch. Some, like DRG, get ~20 gas for speed then removes from gas and continues like normal.
I think most pros go double inject first, not creep. As someone who used to go creep/inject, inject/inject is WAY better. You get like 3 more drones right away, it's really much better to go inject/inject, and then just get a dedicated creep queen when your first 2 queens finish.
- Get lair then infestation pit and baneling speed, double upgrade lings.
This is definitely not the popular metagame. People go ling/bane/muta, and I've never seen infestation pit worth at the tippy top of pro play, only as a gimmicky play done maybe once in a series.
And when going mutas, you neglect upgrades. Single evo only until maybe 4 bases.
I think most pro zergs go hive a little earlier too, around 15 minute, not as late as you say. Personally I take my hive super late and go pure bl/corruptor/infestor, but it's actually a problem of mine that I'm aware of. You go hive a little earlier, and use the mutas as AA support for your BL. They get torn up by thors obviously, but you want to lose them to replace with corruptors and more BL.
ZvP: - 14 Pool into 16 Hatch ( 15 gas ) - 4 early lings for map control and scouting - Against FFE: Pull off gas after ling speed and take early third ( 5:00 ) Drone to 44 then retake gas. Lair and macro hatch. @6:30 two injects worth of lings to hold zealot play. - Against Gate Expand: ling speed then lair @ling speed constant lings take third. - At Lair: Hydra den and spire, scout with overseer - If protoss moves out before mutas make 8 hydras and lings and push back with the hydra/ling while making mutas. - If Protoss doesn't move out or goes for silly robotic play, punish with quick mutas. - Harass constantly with mutas while expanding. - Once on full economy ( 8-10 geysers ) Get Broodlord/Infestor army with roach/hydra support. - Upgrade foucs is on range and carpae. to sum up >> Early game: Speedling Mid game: Hydra/Ling => Muta Late game: Broodlrd/Infestor supported by Roach/Hydra
Against FFE you don't get any gas until when you plant third. Most pros get 2 gas when third completes, I like to take 1 gas when third starts, and 2nd gas really really late, like when I plant roach warren at about 7:30.
Standard lair timing is 9:00, unless you scout something from Toss like gas at his natural showing it's not a super early gateway allin that's cutting probes and has no gas at natural (ie 7 gate, 6 gate +1 all-in). Going lair at 44 supply is wayyyy too early, that seriously cuts your drone count. Going lair that early cuts your drone count by like a good 10, and you will straight up die to any 6 gate +1 if you go lair at 44. That's wayyyy too quick.
6:30 two injects of lings is wayyyyyyyyyy too much. 16 lings just for 2 zealots? You just make lings as necessary against zealots, and usually your queens will hold off initial zealot just fine. Way too much there, and there's no standard, it's just a reaction to a zealot in your base, not to a zealot moving out that might go back home.
Hydra den is rarely ever made too. Zerg nowadays never get hydras, either because they hate hydras (like me) or they go spire tech. Personally against stargate I make a spire, to either get corruptors, or for mutas, but I don't ever get hydras in ZvP anymore and I think most Zerg are the same, although some might make a few if they see stargate, but that's really it.
Standard metagame right now is defend with roach/ling, then get lair and use mutas. Once toss secures his third and gets an army building up, they go bl/infestor and replace lost mutas with bl/infestor.
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On February 13 2012 06:02 Belial88 wrote: I love the idea of this. I think I asked a mod about doing this once (State of the Metagame type of thread) and he said it was a bad idea.
That's pretty depressing. I'd love to see more threads like that here. Why would such a thing be discouraged? I'd also love to see more in depth analyses of specific pro games. (like this.)
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Wow Belial88, thanks very much. Your reply was exactly the kind of stuff I wanted to see. To clarify, I wasn't trying to describe the popular pro-level metagame, but my own. Which obviously isn't the perfect one becuase, not to put too fine a point on it, I suck :D You have some great advice and I'm defnitly gonna adopt some of this stuff but there is also some stuff I would like to discuss:
ZVZ:
muta vs muta, into infestors, into ultras Why the ultra tech instead of the broodlord? Both benefit from the upgrades you have and broodlord are much better against, well, everything. You know you have air units to defend them so it's not like they are amazingly vulnurable. why the ultras?
Basically just roach/hydra vs roach/hydra. You can't go infestors, or you'll die really. So if you go infestors to secure your third, the opponent just has their third and wins with mass roaches I'm not sure I'm clear on what you mean, obviously you are both going lair tech at the same time becuase hydras are lair tech just like infestors. so why does roach/infestor take a third behind roach/hydra? Also, from personall experiance roach/infestor trump mass roach very hard in my level of play - but that defnitily could be a result of poor macro on both sides.
ZvT
I don't think drone scouting is important. Seems to me that you're basically betting on the other player to not be proxy raxing you or marine-scv all-ining you. Looking at Losira vs theSTC, a 10 drone scout would have won him that game easy.
People go ling/bane/muta, and I've never seen infestation pit worth at the tippy top of pro play, only as a gimmicky play done maybe once in a series. All the power to them, this is definitly a personal issue, I can't make 2 base muta work. Maybe I'm too eager fighting tanks, or I mis-micro my mutas. But if I go 2 base muta, terran pushes out - I try to kill his push with lings, banes and a few mutas, lose most of my banes, he reinforces - I lose. So I go for some earlier infestors, to fungal marines so I can actually hit with my banes.
ZvP I'm basing my ZvP on a recent day9 daily and these three liquidZenio games: http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-412-p1-zvp-roach-free-zeniownage-5927675 http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)Grubby_vs_(Z)LiquidZenio/17656 http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)nAni_vs_(Z)LiquidZenio/17670 http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)nAni_vs_(Z)LiquidZenio/17671 I don't lair at 44 supply, I take gas, lair comes at about 55. Also the lings come out at about 7:00 + and yeah I agree that should be a bit later ( It's to defend the 5 zealot +1 attack, or much worse the zealot+warp ray attack) Like you can see in the grubby game above.
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Why the ultra tech instead of the broodlord? Both benefit from the upgrades you have and broodlord are much better against, well, everything. You know you have air units to defend them so it's not like they are amazingly vulnurable. why the ultras?
Mutas will shred any broodlords, and broodlrods are also too slow. If the game is muta vs muta, and then both players get infestors, and then one guy goes broodlords and I go ultras, I'll attack with the ultras going after the infestors, the mutas after the broodlords, and my infestors killing off his mutas. It's okay to lose the ultras as long as you keep the mutas, and really the game is muta vs muta, the only reason it goes to ultras because ultras counter infestors which counter mutas. Mass ling also deals with infestors well too.
Broodlords don't exactly kill ultras quickly, at least not before the ultras kill the infestors. Then the other guy just has muta+infestor to kill your mutas, and then your broodlords are undefended.
But mtua vs muta is vulnerable to tech switches (ie if you lose your mutas when fielding ultras, mass roach will own you, if you lose your infestors, mass muta will own you, etc), so if the opponent's muta numbers die out, then it's perfectly fine to go with broodlords. But I'd think ultras would still be better, as the only way to really counter the ultras are mutas (roaches are good when no mutas are out also but not if ultras have infestor support), and so when the opponent loses his mutas your ultras will deal huge damage.
I'm not sure I'm clear on what you mean, obviously you are both going lair tech at the same time becuase hydras are lair tech just like infestors. so why does roach/infestor take a third behind roach/hydra? Also, from personall experiance roach/infestor trump mass roach very hard in my level of play - but that defnitily could be a result of poor macro on both sides.
Well generally if someone is going infestors, you want less hydras as they die too easily to FG and are slow (meaning you can't be as aggressive as you can with pure roach). So when someone goes infestors too quickly, you just go pure roach and steamroll them. Getting a good 8 infestors out comes at the cost of something like 32 roaches, so if you didn't make roaches while the opponent got a 32 roach lead on you, that's GG.
If you open infestors, that means you have no map control, meaning the opponent takes their third and denys yours until your infestors pop. He just has a huuuge macro lead and trades super inefficiently, forever denies your third, and eventually overruns you with huge 3 base econ vs starving 2 base. If you both go third with roaches, and then one guy techs to infestors, the other player just masses roaches and kills you before the infestors pop. Even if the infestors pop, they need support, so he goes and kills you, or trades armies while sniping your infestors in battle and techs himself.
Theoretically, it's possible in a game you go third with roaches (both of you), and then you sneak the infestation tech (maybe using drop play or counterattacks), and then 3 minutes later once infestors pop, bam, you have a huge advantage. But roach vs roach games are so damn aggressive this should never happen.
In lower level play, yea, players are more passive, later on expo timings, drone less, and in general just macro less and have a smaller army, so infestors are much better in lower level play because the opponent isn't macro'ing super well and pumping out an army to kill you and constantly prodding you to check to make sure you are keeping up army production. But in high level play, it's constant prodding with roach vs roach, and as soon as one player has a noticeable army increase, he kills you.
Yea, I'd say level of play is maybe why infestor works well for where your at. When I was lower masters, roach/infestor was king. At higher levels of play, I started to just get steamrolled by mass pure roach anytime I'd go for infestors, and my third would be too late. Now that I've figured it out, yea, anytime I see infestors I just pump pure roaches and push and kill.
There's a reason you *never* see infestors anytime before 200/200 in pro play. You'll never see a game in the GSL where zergs get infestors before maxing. It's because infestors are... i don't know how to put it... supply efficient, but extremely cost inefficient, compared to roaches. That and they take forever to get out and cost a lot.
Think of it as the same reason why zergs just dont turtle on 3 base with spines to rush broodlords. I mean theoretically, an army of pure broodlord/corruptor will beat anything in ZvZ. it just never gets to that point.
Seems to me that you're basically betting on the other player to not be proxy raxing you or marine-scv all-ining you. Looking at Losira vs theSTC, a 10 drone scout would have won him that game easy.
I check my base with an overlord and drone, as everyone should. If the bunker gets up, you basically lose (or are at least are very very far behind, so far behind that, assuming robotic play, you lose). So assuming vigilance with making sure no bunkers go up by your natural, you should be able to tell if it's a 2 rax or 1 rax opening based on.. you know, seeing a bunch of marines at your base at 17 supply.
If you are worried about it, just hold off at 17 supply, and dont pump drones until you confirm it's not a 2 rax (should be noticed when that overlord pops). If you watch pros hold off 2 rax, you'll notice they don't drone scout and could tell by, you know, the 2 rax hitting them. Pool pops at 17 supply, and they just make 1 queen/6lings instead of 2 queens, and hold it off before pool pops using 8 drones pulled.
You always add a spine after lings pop against 2 rax to make sure any scv all-in will be held off. 1 spine will hold off an scv all-in with micro. I like to add a 2nd spine against 2 rax if I don't see them throw down a CC/get gas with my scouting overlord.
I'm guilty of drone scouting in ZvT. But what I'm looking for is if they took gas first or not. I guess there's really no point in drone scouting, I don't know why I do it still. Just because the 2 rax aren't in his base doesn't mean he put just 1 rax in his natural to try to fake you out and force an overreaction.
As for the game vs TheSTC, he lost because he let the bunker go up, that's all. He should've checked around his base with a drone to make sure an SCV didn't run inside of his base before the overlord popped (as it did). Then he could've easily pulled drones to deny the bunker from going up, and he would've won.
All the power to them, this is definitly a personal issue, I can't make 2 base muta work. Maybe I'm too eager fighting tanks, or I mis-micro my mutas. But if I go 2 base muta, terran pushes out - I try to kill his push with lings, banes and a few mutas, lose most of my banes, he reinforces - I lose. So I go for some earlier infestors, to fungal marines so I can actually hit with my banes.
Maybe you should provide a replay, but there are plenty of pro examples of how to play it. It sounds like you go lair and mutas too quickly, you probably shouldn't have mutas to deal with rine/tank pushes except the latest of pushes. Generally you hold rine/tank with ling/bane. And if you are going infestors, you should not have a baneling nest (that's why you are double evo upgrading and have infestors). It sounds like you are really sac'cing your econ, that's why you are struggling.
You should have 3 hatches, and lair made at 55 supply. That way when T pushes out, you just make 2x larva injects on 3 hatches, and boom you have 50+ lings to overwhelm T army. But the key is to delay, delay, delay.
I don't lair at 44 supply, I take gas, lair comes at about 55.
That makes more sense, but 55 supply is still a little fast. You need to make sure they aren't going a 8:30 7 gate/6gate+1 all-in that cuts probes by seeing if they have no gas at nat. If they have gas, then get lair, but it would be more normal to make that lair around 65 supply.
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I really can't wait to see if more pros adopt the hydra/ling opener that Zenio has been doing. That could really shift the metagame since it does so well against the mass gateway and stargate openers that Protoss do off of 2 bases. It's definitely a lot better than turtling behind mass spores/spines/roaches.
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On February 13 2012 18:35 ipwntbarney wrote: I really can't wait to see if more pros adopt the hydra/ling opener that Zenio has been doing. That could really shift the metagame since it does so well against the mass gateway and stargate openers that Protoss do off of 2 bases. It's definitely a lot better than turtling behind mass spores/spines/roaches. Yeah, I'm not the one to base anything on but I really enjoy this. It feels safe and with good scouting allow you to punish the protoss with correct reactions. I tried it a couple of times and only lost really hard to zealot + warp prism due to being too greedy. You can see how to react correctly in the grubby game.
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On February 13 2012 06:20 Belial88 wrote: I think most pros go double inject first, not creep. As someone who used to go creep/inject, inject/inject is WAY better. You get like 3 more drones right away, it's really much better to go inject/inject, and then just get a dedicated creep queen when your first 2 queens finish.
Belial88, I had a question about this. I understand the optimality of double injects, but my personal style, if I scout a reactor hellion opening a map with defendable nat (via ramp or choke, like shakuras, antiga, ST, TLA), is to use the queen to put down creep tumor first. The reason being is that by ~5:45 when the first two hellions get to your front, your creep is up to the choke/ramp, and you can put down two evo chambers + a spine (or two, depending on width) + your third queen to form a wall and prevent hellions from getting in. This works for me because I play Stephano style, so I use those evos shortly after to start +1/+1 before lair, and I really don't want any hellions to get in.
I feel there's no way to make that wall in time without going tumor first.
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On February 13 2012 06:20 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +- If I hold an early all-in with significant lead: Get +1/+1 roach speed and end the game . . . . . . For ZvT... I don't think drone scouting is important. I think most pros actually dont drone scout. I drone scout, but I should probably stop. There's nothing a drone scout really tells you that's important... Pool timing I don't think matters based on drone. The larger the map, the later you can take it, but 15 is plenty fine. No one uses a reactive pool timing based on a 10 drone scout >< . . . . .. . .
A drone scout can however tell you about a proxy 2 rax all in
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I believe almost everyone drone scouts, you just need to establish if its 2 rax or hellion or even first CC. Sometimes it can be done by OV (and even by then someone sends drone scout if its already on a way to other base). I RARELY see no drone scout.
Drone scout is non standard in zvz and less but still non standard in zvp, but zvt hell no.
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hey belial,
just a question. ive been watching dimaga just now and in his ZvZs he doesnt get hydras until hes maxed on roach infestor. getting infestors way before max. and getting infestors over hydras even if the opponent has gotten hydras.
are you saying that max roach hydra will beat max roach infestor ? or am i missing something
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I actually ran into something fasinating today that really got me excited. A friend of mine brought a chess board to the office today and I played him. Now, I haven't played chess in years and could not remmber any of the openings and such (On the off-topic my chess game has insanely improved due to strategic elements I implemented from sc2 but that's for a diffrent thread). Now looking to refresh my memory of opening I ran into this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_opening_theory_table
The first thing that came to mind is "That's would be awesome for starcraft2" The idea for as much as I could gather is as follows: You begin with a a single line of player actions ( Assuming correct play on both sides ) so for example:
ZvP 3 base map
Zerg ;Protoss ;Zerg ; Protoss ; Zerg 1: Pool 1st ;FFE + Pylon block ;Lings+Queen into hatch ; 4Gate + Stargate ; Quick third + Spores ..... and so on
Now the line below this parent line follows the parent line until it breaks at a certaion point so for example:
2: ----- ---- ----- ; 6gate + (+1 attack) all-in ; Macro Hatch + Roach/ling/spine I think this could be a really cool way to display sc2 strategy overviews. I've begun reading in depth about these tables and how to use and read them, and I really think they could be an awesome tools for pro players to hand down knowledge in a very summariesed and succinct way. You take into account optimal play by both players so trading is equal when it should be (We are assuming equal micro on both sides and correct decision making) and I really think this could be a great tool. Hell, chess is apparently using this stuff pretty religiously, let's get in on a good thing!
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