On January 08 2012 14:27 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
GGQ, why!?!?! I thought we were friends!
GGQ, why!?!?! I thought we were friends!
For whatever reason you looked really scummy this game, I probably would have shot you if I could.
Forum Index > TL Mafia |
bumatlarge
United States4567 Posts
On January 08 2012 14:27 Mr. Wiggles wrote: GGQ, why!?!?! I thought we were friends! For whatever reason you looked really scummy this game, I probably would have shot you if I could. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On January 08 2012 14:29 bumatlarge wrote: Show nested quote + On January 08 2012 14:27 Mr. Wiggles wrote: GGQ, why!?!?! I thought we were friends! For whatever reason you looked really scummy this game, I probably would have shot you if I could. I was going to shoot you, too. But then I didn't. I guess I'm just a bullet magnet Almost shot WBG n1 for fun too, because he was the only one who PBP'ed, but didn't. | ||
GGQ
Canada2653 Posts
On January 08 2012 14:27 Mr. Wiggles wrote: GGQ, why!?!?! I thought we were friends! abandoned my brains and went with my gut | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [Role Descriptions] + Role Conditions were not always completely accurate or fully explanatory and in certain cases my decisions were made outside of the role text. The text was there simply to help people get an idea of what to look for. Justice/Overly Righteous Vigis (I changed the name for a couple people) Congratulations, you are the overly righteous vigilante. Because you are sick of those babbling fools, you have decided to take the law into your own hands. At any night during the game, you can choose to shoot someone (1 bullet). However, due to your great sense of justice, if you shoot a townie, you will commit suicide in disgrace. Your shot will still go through regardless. Keep in mind that your power doesn't have to be used. It is merely another option for you to help police the town. Liar Vigi: You have worked in the police force for too many years and absolutely detest liars. If you catch someone in a lie and prove it to the host, you can shoot them at any time (will hit at the end of the cycle). Note that I will not accept technicality lies, or lies that you cannot prove with the knowledge you have, such as having everyone say 'i am not mafia' and trying to shoot them. Please play with the spirit of the role. If you attempt to try to shoot someone on a silly and false case, there will be consequences, so be sure before you try to shoot! Naturally as this is a subjective role there will be some leeway. Feel free to pm with any questions about cases. Keep in mind that your power doesn't have to be used. It is merely another option for you to help police the town. Spam Vigi: Goodness, you hate spammers and how much they wreck the town! At any night during the game, you can choose to shoot anyone who has more than 10% of the total posts since the game began (1 bullet, use filter to calculate, doesn't have to be exact just somewhere near). You may also argue the case for an exception whose posts are particularly spammy drivel even if he may not fit the post count restriction. Naturally as this is a subjective role there will be some leeway. Feel free to pm with any questions about cases. Keep in mind that your power doesn't have to be used. It is merely another option for you to help police the town. Lurker vigi: Having played against Savior one too many times, you really hate those lurkers! This fear of lurkers has transformed into hatred for anyone who keeps their lips sealed. At any night during the game, you may choose to shoot someone who has less than 5 posts per cycle, not including votes (1 bullet). You may also make the case on a borderline person who is clearly lurking but may not quite fit the post requirement or who makes 1 liners and never says anything. Naturally as this is a subjective role there will be some leeway. Feel free to pm with any questions about cases. Keep in mind that your power doesn't have to be used. It is merely another option for you to help police the town. Elitist Vigi: You are a God amongst mortals. With your intellect, you decree that stupidity is a crime. However, these silly plebians don't listen! Once during the game in daytime you can choose to shoot anyone who has been posting particularly stupid drivel. This is rather subjective and I'll need to clear it but in general either a really really idiotic post with gaping logic, making idiotic moves like 'role=alignment' or just general blindness or a series of idiotic posts is a good ticket. Make sure you clear your case with me before firing, or there will be consequences. Naturally as this is a subjective role there will be some leeway. Feel free to pm with any questions about cases. Keep in mind that your power doesn't have to be used. It is merely another option for you to help police the town. Roleclaim Vigi: You are revolted by blue roles, the fascination with blue roles, and hate anyone who professes to be one. You may shoot any player that has claimed a role outside of vanilla townie (1 shot, night only). Breadcrumbs count if it is unambigious as to which role they claim. Keep in mind that your power doesn't have to be used. It is merely another option for you to help police the town. Apathetic Vigi: Sometimes people just don't seem to care. Whether its posting one liners and lynching someone random just cause or afking along, they are a detrmiment to the town. This also includes people sheeping, or those who vote without sufficient reason. You can shoot any player who fits these qualifications at night (1 shot). Naturally as this is a subjective role there will be some leeway. Feel free to pm with any questions about cases. Keep in mind that your power doesn't have to be used. It is merely another option for you to help police the town. BM Vigi You are the Bad manner vigi. You want to keep a nice clean atmosphere and hate jerks. At one time per game at night you can choose to shoot someone who has been repeatedly insulting other players and causing the atmosphere to darken. Please clear your case with me. Naturally as this is a subjective role there will be some leeway. Feel free to pm with any questions about cases. Keep in mind that your power doesn't have to be used. It is merely another option for you to help police the town. PBPA Vigi You are the no-nonsense vigi. You realize that point-by-point analyses are stupid and only serve to hurt the town. However, others do not! Thus, you can put them in their place. Once per game at night you can shoot any player who has performed a point by point analysis on anyone during the game. This means that they dissected a persons posts and nitpicked their way through, trying to make them look mafia from every tiny element and small post. Note that this does not apply to real analysis which actually serves a purpose. Using multiple posts to analyze is good play. Looking at the minutinae is shot worthy. Naturally as this is a subjective role there will be some leeway. Feel free to pm with any questions about cases. Keep in mind that your power doesn't have to be used. It is merely another option for you to help police the town. Acronym Vigi You are the Acronym Vigilante! You hate people who use acronyms and buzzwords excessively like WIFOM , meta, or the dreaded "scumtell." Once per game you can shoot anyone (at night) who has used multiple acronyms (or the same one repeatedly) throughout the game. Anyone who posts multiple image macros, particularly of buzzwords like a wine glass or that wifom pic, is also fair game. Keep in mind that your power doesn't have to be used. It is merely another option for you to help police the town. Mafia: You are so sick of this dumb town that you and your brodooskis banded together to stamp your seal of justice and shut them up for good. Your KP is 2, with it dropping to 1 once you have 2 or less members. The traitor, if recruited, is added to your total, so you can still have 2/5 members alive and keep 2 kp. Your members are: Wherebugsgo Syllogism L Kitaman27 Your team possesses these roles. Please distribute them amongst your members and get back to me before day 1 ends (the sooner the better as you can use the day vigi anytime). -Role Cop (obtains role name and description of 1 player per night) -Roleblocker -1 bullet day vigi (must type ##kill in thread, activates instantly. If you can, try to make sure one of the hosts is online when you shoot). Cannot be used if you are above majority to prevent a free kill if lynched. Also, there is a traitor out there somewhere. You are allowed 1 guess for the entire game as to who the traitor is at any point in time. If you are correct, your team can pm him and vice versa. Once converted, the traitor will be added to the mafia total. Here's what you know about roles: Every townie this game has a role and they are all different types of vigilantes. Town has no detectives, medics, or vets. They all shoot at nighttime, except for one role which is a day vig, and have one shot. Each vigi has a clauses or restriction which is based around either punishing bad play or taking responsibility. One of them is called the Justice Vigi, which is a Dreamflower. Another is the Liar Vigi, which is basically an Ace, just like the ones used in Personality Mafia and Pick your Power Interesting except with a 1 shot limit. The role pm's are below. Traitor: You are the traitor. You show up as townie to any and all detective actions, but you want the mafia to win! Your job is to cause chaos and confusion throughout the town and sow distrust amongst its members. You can also join with the mafia! You can at any point in time send me a guess. Your guess of mafia consists of exactly how many mafia are alive. So if 2 mafia are alive, you have to give 2 names, 1 must be right. Here's a list of how many you need right: 4 Mafia alive | 3 correct 3 alive | 2 correct 2 alive | 1 correct 1 alive | 1 correct + Show Spoiler [Trigger Cases] + The trigger cases: Chaoser shooting Palmar: Chaoser played his role perfectly and his case was very nice. I clarified that he could shoot for misrepresentation as well, which is what he shot Palmar for. Palmar deliberately misrepresented what L said and Chaoser caught him on it. Chezinu shooting Prplhz: Chezinu's case on prplhz was about him overusing meta and RNG. I felt this went with the technicality of the role but didn't go with the spirit. Prplhz was using the terms simply to describe his overall case, not use them as buzzwords to vaguely talk about certain topics. BC shooting Gmarshal: Gmarshal roleclaimed. Simple. Foolishness shooting L: Foolishness argued that L's frequent and detailed posting yet completely disregard for lynch candidates meant that he didn't really care what happened. His role was tricky on both ends but I felt it fit the purpose well. Prplhz shooting Bugs: The case on Bugs was that he was spamming. Bugs posts are not spam but he certainly the biggest poster. Yes it was around 10% but that wasn't it entirely. While spam is obviously short one liner posts that have no or little substance, I also treat it as people who simply talk about everything and just post too much. For example, if you ever read Pyrrhuloxia or Bill Murray's games as town, they make very detailed posts but they also just post such an insane amount that others get swamped out of the thread. The role was designed to keep people focused on what's important and punish the excessive talking that is common in many games. I didn't communicate this particularly well to prplhz but bugs did fit this criteria. Still very borderline though so it might have been a bad call because by normal game standards this wasn't excessive; it just became that way because of the games holiday inactivity. RoL shooting BC: BC was very inactive by any yardstick, simple as that. Meapak shooting Syllo: Meapak represented the case as shooting syllo for saying scummy, however it was more complicated than that and something we debated about for awhile. Basically the acronym vigi existed to shoot people who used catch-all buzzwords to substitute for actually describing something. The classic examples are wifom and scumtell which plant an idea but actually say nothing of substance, but this was much more borderline. I would have also allowed a shot on RoL for this egregrious post [url=http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=295384¤tpage=45#883here[/url] In this case, syllo used scummy a couple times to simply describe suspicious, which was fine. But in two examples I believe, he used scummy as a buzzword to imply something was suspicious without actually explaining what or why it was suspicious which is what this role was designed to target against. Again, this was very borderline, but given the fact that meapak replaced in so late in the day and literally read the game only after he got replaced, I leaned on his side. Bum shooting Meapak/Chez; Argument was Chez was being BM by going inactive. This made sense to a degree and had he done it before Meapak was subbed in I would have allowed it. But after Meapak subbed in it didn't really apply anymore. Furthermore it the argument required knowing Chezinu's motives, which neither bum nor I knew. Bum shooting RoL: RoL intentionally triggered it by swearing at/insulting bum. Self explanatory. | ||
bumatlarge
United States4567 Posts
And mass vigis are scary, I could imagine the scum team would get screwed pretty hard if 2 vigis hit red night 1, while we were able to recover from lylo even after those townie massacre's and a HOliday related no-lynch. I want to be on a scum team with a scum medic | ||
bumatlarge
United States4567 Posts
Is there a mafia QT? | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
Setup Talk Trigger Vigis were designed not so much to have to force the mafia avoid technical or absolute triggers so much as to give people an option to punish anti-town play. Ideal mafia play is to not be detected while sowing distrust and chaos, so this shouldn't be viewed as mafia having to avoid triggering something as much as mafia should be leading townies to shooting each other and avoid being caught in the first place. More proactive mafia play could have done some real damage. The biggest WTF part of the game was the roleblocker. Let's look at what the roleblocker did specifically. N1: roleblock Gmarshal (shooting RoL , being shot himself anyway by other vigis) N2: roleblock Foolishness (shooting L, shot by mafia) N3: Roleblock Sheth (shooting Meapak , would have committed suicide too) N5: Roleblock Bum (shooting RoL ) Basically mafia roleblocks always hit the mark except the no shot/no lynch cycle and over the course of the game saved 4 townies and 1 mafia from death! Some of the roleblocks made sense (foolishness), while others were bizarre (gmarshal). Sheth summed it up perfectly: its like a weird twilight world where townies kill townies, and mafia save townies In a very hilarious scenario, Sheth agonized the entire night 3 over who to shoot, Kita or Meapak. For the entire day he's going with Kita but is not entirely certain. An hour left in the night he starts second guessing himself and in the last minute changes to Meapak. Then after all that agonizing, he gets roleblocked instead of killing 2 townies Because of this absurd roleblocking result, I'm not sure a balance complaint is reasonable unless you want to focus on the excessive volatility which is quite sensible. Incog, Qatol, and myself were all mystified as to how to properly balance this before the game, and I'm not sure any of us are much wiser on it now lol. Some things I'd change: 1) Mafia being able to shoot people who claimed they shot a townie. I didn't like the fact that some people got away from suspicion from claiming they shot a townie. We originally had mafia with a day vigi and an elitist day vigi (copy of sandroba/curu's role), however we took that out for the role cop to let them potentailly fake claim cop. Mafia should have had something like a responsibility vigi, which forces townies to take responsibility for doing something dumb. I was wary about giving the mafia too much kp in a no medic setup but something needed to be done to punish bad play further and trigger vigis were not punished enough for missing. 2) Absolutely forbid a couple people (who know who they are) to not play in 2 games at once (not the election mafia games, off site ones). I didn't catch it right away, didn't try to bully them out of the other game, and sadly their performance matched the attention they could put in for each game. 3) Don't host it around the holidays. Sorry guys! I had no idea it would get this bad 4) Shouldn't have told mafia that there were no medics. This let them shoot anyone making too much sense without impunity. I'll happily answer any questions but because of the huge inactivity problem I don't want to do a full writeup. Suffice to say Chaoser and Foolishness played incredibly well given the circumstances. Sandroba/Curu were definitely on the right track but were screwed because mafia knew everyone was a vigi and thus couldn't be protected, and Meapak really made a huge imapct from a difficult position. It's hard to assess the mafia play overall. They played a balanced, somewhat passive style and everyone got figured out by different townies but protected by other townies. Given the players I would have liked to see more proactive play and pushing mafia agendas to get more misfires. I was very pleased that the mafia figured out the blind spot in the vigi setup where multiple vigis could shoot 1 person and nobody could tell if they were telling the truth or not. However, they got pretty complacent and didn't fully utilize it to their advantage. Kita's claim at the end was not congruent and should have been picked apart. Here's one way that could have worked: -Every mafia drops subtle hints about wanting to kill one of the other members and maybe brings up cases about them. Something like, 'well this case on main townie suspect A is solid, but if possible I'd rather kill mafia B for reasons XYZ' when its clear the main townie suspect will die. So mafia A wants to kill mafia B, mafia B wants to kill C, etc, like a big circle. -Anytime one mafia dies, the one who has 'breadcrumbed' the case on the dead mafia claims they shot him. Even if another townie claimed at the day post, they have no way to prove you're lying as long as you weren't posting near the end of night time period. Obviously if both mafia who could do this die in one night, then it doesn't work, but that is quite unlikely. I'd love to hear other feedback. Did you like it (barring the holiday inactivity)? Would you want to play in a tweaked setup again? What changes would you make? Do you feel it helped fulfill the original spirit? | ||
Meapak_Ziphh
United States6782 Posts
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
I love the setup though. Very volatile but very skill intensive. I would play a tweaked version, time permitting. | ||
CookieMaker
Canada880 Posts
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
Overall I think it was a fun setup, but it's probably not going to be used again for a while I don't get how Chezinu avoids the banlist but meh. | ||
wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
I also think it interfered too much with normal play. This game was very abnormal and even though town played relatively badly, the vigis helped them come back to win. Night 1 the traitor gets shot (right as I saw he was the traitor cause he said something retarded) and we chose a stupid roleblock because we didn't think the lynch through enough and were scared GM would shoot kita. While it's easier for townies to influence lynches than vig shots, it's also easier for mafia to influence the lynch than the vig shots. You can't dodge both the lynch AND vig shots; that's asking the impossible. My play as scum, for example, involves manipulating the lynch over and over, on anyone but me. I use whatever tactics possible to do so. A lot of these tactics are just pulled out of the game when you have to worry about getting shot over them. In addition, I completely disagree over having qualified for spam vig, and for syllo qualifying for the acronym vig. There's an inherent bias in the host allowing a person to shoot someone else on certain grounds because the host already knows the alignment of the player in question. Thus, there's already a subconscious bias that will cause a tendency toward the host allowing the player to take a shot on a mafia player, whereas on a town player it's less likely. Sure, I might have had X percent of the posts by day 2 or whatever, but that's not to say I was spamming. Likewise, I don't understand how it even fits the theme for syllo to be shot based on him saying "scummy" several times. | ||
syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
Because of this absurd roleblocking result, I'm not sure a balance complaint is reasonable unless you want to focus on the excessive volatility which is quite sensible. I don't understand. The roleblocks made sense in light of what we knew; Sheth had been very suspicious of Kita and so had been GM. Are you suggesting we shouldn't have role blocked anyone? Blocking bum on n5 was a mistake as by that point kita should have gambled but considering his heroic efforts otherwise, can't fault him for that. Even keeping some of the people a lot of townies were suspicious of (RoL) doesn't seem too bad | ||
syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
Acronym Vigi You are the Acronym Vigilante! You hate people who use acronyms and buzzwords excessively like WIFOM , meta, or the dreaded "scumtell." Once per game you can shoot anyone (at night) who has used multiple acronyms (or the same one repeatedly) throughout the game. Anyone who posts multiple image macros, particularly of buzzwords like a wine glass or that wifom pic, is also fair game. Keep in mind that your power doesn't have to be used. It is merely another option for you to help police the town. I read the case and I don't see how you can justify allowing the shot due to meapak not having enough time. That's exactly the kind of reason that makes these triggers arbitrary. Given how many vigs town has, borderline cases should always fall on the side of not allowing the shot. | ||
Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
for example in chaoser's role, getting caught in a lie (as the role was in pyp:i) is terrible as both town and scum. However strawman arguing is only bad town play, it's actually good mafia play (I did figure out syllo and L on day 1), as we sidetracked the discussion quite seriously. I'm going to write a longer post, thanks ver for hosting. Most things this game I liked a lot. | ||
L
Canada4732 Posts
So basically we had 3 chances to win and we threw all of them, and that's not including the 3 times we saved the town by RBing a townie shot. In retrospect I should have pushed to have no one RB'd day 1, but oh well. The shot on Syllo had pretty much all of us going ??? on IRC when we heard the grounds for it, but honestly the game shouldn't have even gotten to that point. I was hoping my day 1 analysis would be a REALLLLLLY big tip-off to the traitor. Looks like it worked, but I didn't expect it to be Palmar. Nuts. TL;DR GJ town. Our team blundered horrendously. | ||
syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
That snowballed into me getting shot and the game was over for me. I didn't really follow the game much after that, but for me that was really what it came down to. Honestly the inactivity screwed me because it made it look as if I had more posts than I should've. Also, by day 3 I actually did not have 10% of the posts; I had less. VE had more posts than I did, even. By the daypost I died in, I had 60 game-relevant posts, and the game had lasted 38 pages, or around 760 posts. (the first 10 pages of the thread were signups and stuff). That amounted to 8% of the total posts. That was actually rather close to average, if a little bit high, since five people had died by that point. EDIT: On January 08 2012 22:16 L wrote: I really don't see how this setup was town favored in the least. The mafia team derped out and skipped out on being on IRC during day 3 then bussed me by mistake when we had an easy 5v2 vote advantage. Syllo completely dropped the ball that day and made himself SUPER suspicious by posting 2 lines on an already stacked train, and kita blundered later. So basically we had 3 chances to win and we threw all of them, and that's not including the 3 times we saved the town by RBing a townie shot. In retrospect I should have pushed to have no one RB'd day 1, but oh well. The shot on Syllo had pretty much all of us going ??? on IRC when we heard the grounds for it, but honestly the game shouldn't have even gotten to that point. I was hoping my day 1 analysis would be a REALLLLLLY big tip-off to the traitor. Looks like it worked, but I didn't expect it to be Palmar. Nuts. TL;DR GJ town. Our team blundered horrendously. I disagree completely with this assessment. You were, if I remember correctly, the person who told us to RB GM. I remember arguing that we shouldn't RB GM because he would very likely shoot a townie. I even tried changing the night action, but it was too late because we didn't discuss anything until a couple minutes after the deadline. Discussion was difficult and often sporadic in IRC from what I recall, but to be honest our activity levels directly reflected those of town; i.e, they were bad. Overall I don't think this game saw very good play by either side. For the longest time I wanted to just claim apathy vig and shoot Foolishness during day 2, but I didn't want to piss you guys off if I got vigged afterward, since it would have seemed like a direct result of that action. In hindsight I should've just done it, but oh well. Learned something, I suppose. | ||
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On January 08 2012 14:14 Liquid`Sheth wrote: HECK YEA, GOOD GAME KITA!!!! MEAPAK I LOVE YOU, BUM YOU CAME THROUGH FOR ME AT THE END. ROL IM PROUD OF YOU. GG Sorry about EZing you a couple days back :O Thanks meapak for making me actually put effort into rereading our 3 confirmed scums. | ||
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On January 08 2012 14:47 bumatlarge wrote: Haha I loved it. I was pissed during the game from having 0 information so I couldn't figure out things like I usually do, but now that the game is over it's more fun. I'd change around a few things so that there is an amount of guesswork still. Also, use Responsibility points! Or a role that measures someones response ability! And mass vigis are scary, I could imagine the scum team would get screwed pretty hard if 2 vigis hit red night 1, while we were able to recover from lylo even after those townie massacre's and a HOliday related no-lynch. I want to be on a scum team with a scum medic You know how close I came to just not ever triggering your killing ability on me? My immediate thought was "There is no fucking way I am giving him the chance to throw this game away." | ||
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