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On December 24 2011 03:06 prplhz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 01:30 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On December 23 2011 18:41 prplhz wrote:
Hey guys
I like GGQ's explanation of night actions. VisceraEyes bombed bumatlarge in Election Mafia on a somewhat flimsy reasonable, he's crazy like that. I think he shot GMarshal. I don't think mafia would shoot VisceraEyes on day1, which is why VisceraEyes shouldn't shoot on day1 if he's blue but again, he's crazy like that.
I think GMarshal was roleblocked last night, because who else would mafia roleblock? If he was roleblocked and he survived there could have been massive chaos day2 and he's a claimed blue who said he'd shoot somebody in the face, scum knows that he isn't kidding around so he's absolutely their best target for roleblock. I think that Chezinu is lying about his roleblock, consequently making him mafia. What do you guys think about that?
I'd post more about him but he's kinda hard to read you know. Read the game... If GM was roleblocked and hit that leaves 4 hits for the mafia/unclaimed, which is way too high. If GM was roleblocked he wouldn't of died because it would block both his hit and his suicide, not just the hit. The mafia know this assuming they are literate and since they thought he was going to hit a townie why would they roleblock GM since it would result in his death anyway? Hint: They wouldn't. I don't even know what to say to this anymore. A bit scummy? I was in PYP:Insane that Protactinium hosted who was part Ver as I understood it. That game had a role called dreamflower that worked kinda like the vigilantes we've seen so far in this game. I really wanted this role so I asked a lot of questions about it and dreamflower only died from hitting someone, if they actually flipped town. Combined with what LSB said, I am going to assume it works like that in this game too. Also, GMarshal told people about his hits at 14:00KST which would leave no room for scum to organize their actions based on what he said. Therefore he did not lie and therefore scum would only know who he was going to hit, too late to change their own actions. This means that GMarshal was roleblocked, or that his target was magically protected by a medic but the latter I find extremely unlikely. VisceraEyes voted GMarshal during the whole claim/counterclaim thing, because VisceraEyes thought it was weird that there was another role like his (LSB) but even weirder that there was a third role. I don't really think this is too weird. I don't think that VisceraEyes was killed by town because he was obvious townie (why aren't you all obvious townies?) and I don't think that VisceraEyes was killed by scum because I don't think scum considered him to be a huge threat. I think it is likely that VisceraEyes shot somebody because he's a crazy man who does stuff like that. Palmar was shot by chaoser, GMarshal was shot by VisceraEyes who had to take responsibility for shooting a townie and died himself. Jackal58 and SamuelLJackson were shot by mafia. This means that the 4 mafia players have 2 hits, which doesn't sound unlikely to me. Sorry if I was unclear about this in my first post. This seems like the simplest explanation to me, any other explanation that assumes that GMarshal flipped himself by hitting you or assumes that GMarshal lied about his claim in his 14:00KST post seems very unlikely to me. I'd much rather assume that VisceraEyes was a responsibility vig than I would assume that GMarshal lied or that GMarshal would flip even without getting hit.
Now did you read the thread? You say here that you are speculating that GMarshal might have been some sort of suicide vigilante, after he had claimed suicide vigilante in the thread. Can you tell me why you are only speculating, that a confirmed townie who claimed suicide vig in thread, might be a suicide vig? "I'm guessing he has some sort of conscience", well the guy said that in this very thread! Did you read the thread? Are you saying that I am scum or what?
I'd actually much rather continue pushing BloodyC0bbler because night hit analysis of this magnitude is bound to have a huge error margin, that's why we can't really agree. wherebugsgo's defense of BloodyC0bbler has been "Yea, but WIFOM?", attacking the one argument that I said was very debatable, and pointing out that a traitor supported it. I thought about how traitors should act, and I don't think they're going to act overly scummy in hopes that scum will find them. They're probably going to act kinda townie while never pushing to get a scum lynched, and then make a guess at the remaining mafia when they have 2 shots and only have to hit 1. If they act scummy, then they get lynched (or shot in the face). I am uncertain as to whether my case was actually good or bad because only wherebugsgo and VisceraEyes ever really commented on it. Right now only me and wherebugsgo are actually trying to say who we find scummy, maybe somebody else could chime in at some point in a non-wishy-washy manner.
I said I had not been current up until that point. Your scenario fails to explain why I am not dead, nor was I notified of any hit or protection. You are making some insane scenario to explain the night hits. Gmarshal killed himself. Why would you speculate VE was also the same type of vigi, and if so why the fuck would he hit GM?
I am not wasting time responding to you on this anymore, it is a complete waste of time.
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If that's a waste of time, could you tell us who you would lynch? You placeholder voted yesterday and I don't see a single hint in your filter of you even implying who you find scummy
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On December 24 2011 04:10 syllogism wrote:Jackal as a n1 mafia kill seems bizarre to me unless NKs are based on some sort of triggers as well. He only pushed for LSB and didn't post anything relevant during the night @GGQ: do you believe mafia has two role blockers or that chezinu is lying? One of the two have to be true for your scenario to be possible Wiggles: what exactly did you mean here Show nested quote +What are the chances someone claims RB in the morning, though? That means we're either going to have to lynch them out of principle, or deal with bullshit for the next couple days. What do people plan to do, when someone claims RB, or claims their shot but the target doesn't die (vet or protected)? I see this as pretty likely to happen, regardless of if one is scum or not. Why did you consider such a scenario likely? Do you have the list of blues? Even if the setup has a bunch of vets/medics, it actually seems quite unlikely for a town vig to hit someone who is medic protected. Regardless, now that something like that has happened, what do you think should be done with RoL? Despite flipping traitor, I think Palmar was ironically right about you I considered that scenario likely for a few reasons:
1) If GM is scum, then he can't actually shoot. So, he's forced to either claim RB or that his target was scum and protected.
2) If GM was a Townie, and was telling the truth, then there's a good chance of Mafia RBing him to cause confusion. It would look the same as in case 1.
3) There's the possibility mafia have a medic. A mafia medic is only ever going to be protecting one of their own members on night 1, barring very odd circumstances. So, if GM had good aim, was town, but shot a protected scum, it would again look like case 1.
I didn't need a list of blues to be able to tell that there was a pretty decent chance GM's shot wasn't going through. If he's scum, it's not going through for sure, and if he's town, then it's not going through if he gets RBed or shoots protected scum. Based on how he had been acting, I thought he was likely to be scum, and then we'd fall into case 1.
When I said someone there, I was referring specifically to LSB and GM. I was asking what people wanted to do, because a lot of the time, people just let claimed RBed fake-claims live night after night. What I wanted, was to threaten GM with lynch if he claimed his shot didn't go through, and follow through on it, unless he actually gave us a very credible case for why someone else was scum, or some other kind of significant contribution.
So, that post had nothing to do with if other people claim RB or not, just the claimed vigs. The reasons for RoL living right now, are as follows:
1) He was medic protected:
Verdict: Unlikely, but possible
While in a normal game, this might make sense, as he is considered a good vet, I don't see a good reason for it in this game. He had only one or two posts, with little content in them. He wasn't likely to be shot, and then if protected on the principle of being a vet, there are other players who fit that bill too, being Foolishness, BC, and L, and they were all more active and easier to get a read on than RoL.
2) GM was roleblocked:
Verdict: Likely
Like I wrote above, mafia would do this to cause confusion and make it look the same as if GM was scum.
3) GM shot someone else:
Verdict: Possible
I don't really see a reason for it, and like others have said, if he did, he bread-crumbed it in his list of reads. However, I don't really see the point in fake-claiming your shot after the deadline. What's the point? However, a lot of GM's other play didn't make sense to me, so maybe he did this, too. -_-
4) RoL is a Vet:
Verdict: RoL didn't claim taking a hit, so no.
So, right now, I think that we should treat RoL the same as any other player. I don't see a reason why GM's claimed shot on RoL should make a difference in how we treat RoL. RoL's failure to die, doesn't say much about his alignment, as we are unsure of who hit who, and if GM was possibly RBed. Instead, we just look at his posts, and pressure him to post, like any other player in this game.
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Anyone else think Sheth is scummy for lurking?
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@RebirthOfLeGenD If you don't want to talk to me, then don't. I don't see the town motivation for being so harsh to me like that unless you think that I'm scum. I asked you about this very clearly but you are avoiding the question. You seem too obsessed with clearing yourself through GMarshal having hit you while I think most of the indications we've had points to GMarshal actually only dying from killing a townie if that townie also dies. Why don't you clear yourself through some scum hunting instead?
@Mr. Wiggles Is Liquid`Sheth the best lynch for us today?
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On December 24 2011 04:19 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 03:06 prplhz wrote:On December 24 2011 01:30 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On December 23 2011 18:41 prplhz wrote:
Hey guys
I like GGQ's explanation of night actions. VisceraEyes bombed bumatlarge in Election Mafia on a somewhat flimsy reasonable, he's crazy like that. I think he shot GMarshal. I don't think mafia would shoot VisceraEyes on day1, which is why VisceraEyes shouldn't shoot on day1 if he's blue but again, he's crazy like that.
I think GMarshal was roleblocked last night, because who else would mafia roleblock? If he was roleblocked and he survived there could have been massive chaos day2 and he's a claimed blue who said he'd shoot somebody in the face, scum knows that he isn't kidding around so he's absolutely their best target for roleblock. I think that Chezinu is lying about his roleblock, consequently making him mafia. What do you guys think about that?
I'd post more about him but he's kinda hard to read you know. Read the game... If GM was roleblocked and hit that leaves 4 hits for the mafia/unclaimed, which is way too high. If GM was roleblocked he wouldn't of died because it would block both his hit and his suicide, not just the hit. The mafia know this assuming they are literate and since they thought he was going to hit a townie why would they roleblock GM since it would result in his death anyway? Hint: They wouldn't. I don't even know what to say to this anymore. A bit scummy? I was in PYP:Insane that Protactinium hosted who was part Ver as I understood it. That game had a role called dreamflower that worked kinda like the vigilantes we've seen so far in this game. I really wanted this role so I asked a lot of questions about it and dreamflower only died from hitting someone, if they actually flipped town. Combined with what LSB said, I am going to assume it works like that in this game too. Also, GMarshal told people about his hits at 14:00KST which would leave no room for scum to organize their actions based on what he said. Therefore he did not lie and therefore scum would only know who he was going to hit, too late to change their own actions. This means that GMarshal was roleblocked, or that his target was magically protected by a medic but the latter I find extremely unlikely. VisceraEyes voted GMarshal during the whole claim/counterclaim thing, because VisceraEyes thought it was weird that there was another role like his (LSB) but even weirder that there was a third role. I don't really think this is too weird. I don't think that VisceraEyes was killed by town because he was obvious townie (why aren't you all obvious townies?) and I don't think that VisceraEyes was killed by scum because I don't think scum considered him to be a huge threat. I think it is likely that VisceraEyes shot somebody because he's a crazy man who does stuff like that. Palmar was shot by chaoser, GMarshal was shot by VisceraEyes who had to take responsibility for shooting a townie and died himself. Jackal58 and SamuelLJackson were shot by mafia. This means that the 4 mafia players have 2 hits, which doesn't sound unlikely to me. Sorry if I was unclear about this in my first post. This seems like the simplest explanation to me, any other explanation that assumes that GMarshal flipped himself by hitting you or assumes that GMarshal lied about his claim in his 14:00KST post seems very unlikely to me. I'd much rather assume that VisceraEyes was a responsibility vig than I would assume that GMarshal lied or that GMarshal would flip even without getting hit.
Now did you read the thread? You say here that you are speculating that GMarshal might have been some sort of suicide vigilante, after he had claimed suicide vigilante in the thread. Can you tell me why you are only speculating, that a confirmed townie who claimed suicide vig in thread, might be a suicide vig? "I'm guessing he has some sort of conscience", well the guy said that in this very thread! Did you read the thread? Are you saying that I am scum or what?
I'd actually much rather continue pushing BloodyC0bbler because night hit analysis of this magnitude is bound to have a huge error margin, that's why we can't really agree. wherebugsgo's defense of BloodyC0bbler has been "Yea, but WIFOM?", attacking the one argument that I said was very debatable, and pointing out that a traitor supported it. I thought about how traitors should act, and I don't think they're going to act overly scummy in hopes that scum will find them. They're probably going to act kinda townie while never pushing to get a scum lynched, and then make a guess at the remaining mafia when they have 2 shots and only have to hit 1. If they act scummy, then they get lynched (or shot in the face). I am uncertain as to whether my case was actually good or bad because only wherebugsgo and VisceraEyes ever really commented on it. Right now only me and wherebugsgo are actually trying to say who we find scummy, maybe somebody else could chime in at some point in a non-wishy-washy manner. I said I had not been current up until that point. Your scenario fails to explain why I am not dead, nor was I notified of any hit or protection. You are making some insane scenario to explain the night hits. Gmarshal killed himself. Why would you speculate VE was also the same type of vigi, and if so why the fuck would he hit GM? I am not wasting time responding to you on this anymore, it is a complete waste of time.
You are obviously not reading very carefully at all, or you are purposefully misunderstanding. His (my) scenario explains why you are not dead; Gmarshal was roleblocked.
Are you subscribing to the explanation that GMarshal shot VE (or possibly jackal or hydra), after claiming he shot you in a post after the deadline? How do you explain this?
Or do you think he died for trying to shoot you? In that case, what is your explanation for being alive and not receiving notification of a protection?
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On December 24 2011 04:10 syllogism wrote:Jackal as a n1 mafia kill seems bizarre to me unless NKs are based on some sort of triggers as well. He only pushed for LSB and didn't post anything relevant during the night @GGQ: do you believe mafia has two role blockers or that chezinu is lying? One of the two have to be true for your scenario to be possible Wiggles: what exactly did you mean here Show nested quote +What are the chances someone claims RB in the morning, though? That means we're either going to have to lynch them out of principle, or deal with bullshit for the next couple days. What do people plan to do, when someone claims RB, or claims their shot but the target doesn't die (vet or protected)? I see this as pretty likely to happen, regardless of if one is scum or not. Why did you consider such a scenario likely? Do you have the list of blues? Even if the setup has a bunch of vets/medics, it actually seems quite unlikely for a town vig to hit someone who is medic protected. Regardless, now that something like that has happened, what do you think should be done with RoL? Despite flipping traitor, I think Palmar was ironically right about you
I would assume chezinu is lying, but I could be wrong.
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On December 23 2011 14:13 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
GM, your scum reads are all incredibly weak. What gives? You have lurker, bad meta, and not playing as good as I think he should be (Which can be said of a lot of people in this game). lol. I thought you were going to give us strong scum reads? This isn't what that list contains.
Also palmar is not acting the same as his town meta, somethings off.
If BC continues to be inactive, he's scum.
Sheth is scummy.
Foolishness and VE townie (VE much more so).
In case I got shot.
Wiggles, here you criticize GM for calling people scum for bad reasons, then you use those same reasons to call a bunch of other people scum (sheth for lurking, palmar for bad meta, BC for not playing as good as you think he should). What gives?
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On December 24 2011 05:14 GGQ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 14:13 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
GM, your scum reads are all incredibly weak. What gives? You have lurker, bad meta, and not playing as good as I think he should be (Which can be said of a lot of people in this game). lol. I thought you were going to give us strong scum reads? This isn't what that list contains.
Also palmar is not acting the same as his town meta, somethings off.
If BC continues to be inactive, he's scum.
Sheth is scummy.
Foolishness and VE townie (VE much more so).
In case I got shot. Wiggles, here you criticize GM for calling people scum for bad reasons, then you use those same reasons to call a bunch of other people scum (sheth for lurking, palmar for bad meta, BC for not playing as good as you think he should). What gives?
Nah, I said I got a weird feeling from Palmar, not that he was necessarily scum. I was disagreeing with GMarshal's assessment that he was playing exactly to his meta.
Sheth is scummy for lurking, but also because of how he is lurking. He has enough time to read the thread and post in the other game he was in, but all he can do in this one is quote and say "I agree?", that's pretty bad.
Also, I don't care how good BC is playing, but right now, he's just kind've gliding along as an inactive/lurker. He said he'd be busy on day 1, which implies that he'll be back to post on day 2. If he doesn't, then I find it likely he's scum. It's the same thing FW did in Personality mafia, where he would just come in with a post every now and then and make excuses.
It's day 2, and we have 4 vets, RoL, BC, Foolishness, and L, who haven't actually bothered to commit to anything with regards to other players. They aren't all going to be town, and there's no way they're all scum. So, some of them are just not doing (or at least contributing) anything as town.
Also, the difference between GM's post and mine, was I just wanted to give a quick summary of my reads in case I was dead. GM's was his grand contribution to make up for a whole 48 hours of lurking, and was meant to astound us and completely redeem him for his scummy behaviour. It wasn't just that GM called people scum for bad reasons, but also because those were the only reasons he could come up with when his life was probably (and almost literally) on the line, when it came to finding scum.
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On December 24 2011 04:56 prplhz wrote:
@RebirthOfLeGenD If you don't want to talk to me, then don't. I don't see the town motivation for being so harsh to me like that unless you think that I'm scum. I asked you about this very clearly but you are avoiding the question. You seem too obsessed with clearing yourself through GMarshal having hit you while I think most of the indications we've had points to GMarshal actually only dying from killing a townie if that townie also dies. Why don't you clear yourself through some scum hunting instead?
@Mr. Wiggles Is Liquid`Sheth the best lynch for us today?
Sheth is a good starting point for today. I encourage you to vote for him.
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
I have already alluded to my suspicions before, but our lynch target for today is wherebugsgo.
My suspicions first started near the end of yesterday. I was reading through Steamship mafia (bugs was townie there) and I noticed that bugs posts and obscene amount of one-liners, something that is mysteriusly absent from this game. Upon reading Mini Mafia X (bugs was mafia this time), I observed the same thing as this game: the number of one liners he posted was not up to par with his normal town play.
Of course this is not enough to warrant an accusation in itself. Upon further analysis it is immediately apparent that bugs is completely out of character this game. The biggest thing is the lack of definite aggression that is typical of wherebugs go. Let's observe:
From this game, here is a post against me on day 1:
On December 22 2011 06:28 wherebugsgo wrote:@Foolishness, I realize your town meta is "be useless day 1 into rape scumteam day 2" but if we are not afforded the luxury of having you around day 2 I would love to hear your thoughts and opinions on who is scum as soon as you can give them to us. You are a valuable asset to town, and the day 1 lynch is as important as any other. This isn't a town full of new players, so lurking day 1 isn't going to afford you any protection. Can you explain why you are choosing to lurk and post relatively little anyway? What is the disadvantage of you posting a lot? + Show Spoiler +I can see one, and that's you being scum and not wanting to post.
Now take a look at this attack on day 1 against Chaoser in Steamship. Bugs was green in this game.
On November 16 2011 09:46 wherebugsgo wrote:
Then, your attacks on Zephirrd are really bad too. He's a new player, and most of what he's saying makes sense. That's better than a lot of other new players. You even admit to making cases "out of nothing" as an attempt to create reactions from other players. That's not a good way to play town and you know it. You should be posting a case on someone after you have subtly pushed them for a while, instead of voting them the instant you think they've said something scummy. That's not reliable.
The difference in tone should be immediately obvious here. When bugs is town, his attacks are solid and concrete, just like the one against chaoser. To paraphrase, he says to chaoser, "yo, you're fucking up, fix your shit or else". This is the bugs we all know (and maybe love). He does not take shit from anyone and isn't afraid to call people out on their shit.
Yet this game we see a remarkable difference. It is not news to anyone that bugs wants to kill me, he's been after me for almost the entire game. That's fine on it's own. What's important is how he has been after me, as that does not fit his usual style of play.
Take another post he's made regarding myself:
On December 22 2011 07:51 wherebugsgo wrote:
The weird thing about Foolishness, for me, is that he should know that lurking today should offer him no protection. In a game full of people who KNOW he's good, why would he lurk day 1 as town? How does that further the goal of surviving to crush the scum day 2 onwards? I fully understand why he does it in other games. However, I've asked for his opinions several times and he doesn't give much. He says LSB's meta fits his town meta, but then Jackal says the opposite. I really don't like how Foolish is playing right now.
Again we see the same thing as above (and the rest of his posts against me aren't any better either!) Note how he's calmly drawing suspicion towards me without actually saying anything concrete (and he never votes for me either). This is a common mafia ploy: he wants to plant the idea in your mind that I'm suspicious and then wait for someone else to jump the gun and straight out accuse me. That way he is not accountable for me and he can claim that he was suspicious of me the whole time, all the while blending in perfectly as an honorable townsperson.
The above post is a perfect segway into my next item of interest in that bugs has been quite the question talker this game. Take a few examples:
On December 22 2011 05:55 wherebugsgo wrote:overslept o_O current votecount says this: Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 12:44 ZBot wrote:Day 1 Vote Count
With 20 alive, it takes 11 to lynch.Current votes: LSB (3): wherebugsgo, SamuelLJackson, Jackal58L (2): kitaman27, - kitaman27, wherebugsgo, - wherebugsgo, SamuelLJackson, - SamuelLJackson, Jackal58, - Jackal58, chaoser, PalmarPalmar (2): VisceraEyes, - VisceraEyes, VisceraEyes, Chezinu, - VisceraEyes, LSamuelLJackson (2): GMarshal, Chezinu, VisceraEyes, - VisceraEyes, - Chezinu, LSBBloodyC0bbler (1): Mr. WigglesLiquid`Sheth (1): kitaman27VisceraEyes (1): prplhzFoolishness (0): VisceraEyes, - VisceraEyesGMarshal (0): Palmar, - PalmarVoting ends at December 22 2011 14:00. (That's approximately 8:15:20 from now.) So clearly a lot of people have not voted yet. Palmar, what makes you confident L is scum? Foolishness, if you want to kill L, why is your vote not on him? Or has your opinion changed since I was last here? Jackal, can you explain what makes you suspicious of LSB? All the people who haven't voted yet: why are you not contributing to discussion?
On December 22 2011 06:59 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 06:55 GMarshal wrote: Part 2: Picking and Choosing. Who to lynch day 1 LSB: Well, he hasn't come up with a mega plan yet, but I find wbg analysis against him to be quite weak. The fact is I expect better play from LSB overall. One point I didn't see brought up is that LSB seems to be lacking confidence, Town LSB is supremely confident, I don't get that "feel" here. his defense seems ok. I wanted to comment on him since he was a lynch target at some point. What part about me calling LSB timid isn't saying he lacks confidence? Did you even read my case? Did you read the posts other players have made about LSB? I don't like the vibe you're giving off.
On December 22 2011 07:37 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 07:27 SamuelLJackson wrote:
@GMarshal I want to you to answer this honestly: How carefully are you reading the thread?
/sandroba sandro was it you or curu who initially agreed with the LSB case I made? Can you explain your current thoughts on the game? What do you think of Palmar/L? RoL? Foolishness?
Now I got no problem with someone asking questions, but I bring this up because it's very noticeable. wherebugsgo has been on the forefront of trying to get information out of other people (which is definitely a good thing), but it appears that is all he is trying to do. I'm not saying he's completely useless or hasn't provided his own analysis (he has justified the majority of his actions this game), but there's the obvious sense that he's trying hard to use other peoples' thoughts as his own.
More importantly, looking through a few of his past games you'll find that the amount of questions he is asking is really out of character for him. And this makes incredible sense too. When you think about bugs's playstyle, what do you think of? Actively calling people bullshitters and mass typing "loooool" as he proceeds to call you a retard. He is not the type of player who figures things out by asking questions and judging reactions.
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But also, where is the retard calling bugs that we are used to seeing? Certainly not in this game that's for sure. The posts I've already quoted should serve as enough evidence that we are playing with a different bugs than we are all used to. Of course he's made a few posts that are typical of him, but on the whole something is definitely off. A few specific things he says stick out in my mind:
On December 21 2011 10:44 wherebugsgo wrote:
Foolishness you're mean!
He sounds like a child!
On December 22 2011 06:28 wherebugsgo wrote:
We need more information up in here. A lot of people haven't voted and the thread is relatively inactive. Most of those who have voted have not provided many reasons for their votes, but not all of them can be scum. So, let's get some information flowing!
"So, let's get some information flowing!" Does this sound like something bugs would normally say? I would expect a "we need to fucking kill these inactives before they lose us the game". These sentences are extremely out of character for him.
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Another interesting tidbit is that bugs is one of the most vote-happy people in the game. Take any game where he's town (Steamship is my favorite example) you'll see his vote switch between 3-4 people on any given day, usually on gut whims. In the past two games I found of him as mafia he's much more cautious with his vote and does not toss it around (although these were both mini games so there weren't as many players).
For example, in Steamship he changes his vote to lemonwalrus because he (lemonwalrus) made two sketchy posts.
+ Show Spoiler +On November 17 2011 10:09 wherebugsgo wrote:##unvote chaoser##vote LemonwalrusReason: Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 09:24 Lemonwalrus wrote:On November 17 2011 09:22 chaoser wrote:
##vote bumatlarge Reasoning please? I've been toying with that vote since page 15 or so, but I'd like to hear why you did it. Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 09:54 Lemonwalrus wrote:
##Vote: bumatlarge
Be the batman that this steamship deserves. Sorry, but I can't let away with you calling out another player for an unreasoned vote and then pulling an unreasoned vote yourself.
I shouldn't need to remind you that we haven't seen any of this in the current game yet. As I'm writing this, he's said we should lynch me and yet he hasn't even voted for me.
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This is a small thing in comparison to my arguments above, but when GM made his post about shooting RoL, I immediately posted the following:
On December 23 2011 14:06 Foolishness wrote:
noooo not RoL! You could have shot bugs!
Which is the first thing I have ever said regarding wherebugsgo. Roughly 45 min later, bugs makes this post:
On December 23 2011 14:58 wherebugsgo wrote:
...
however, we lost a LOT of townies last night. We need to hit scum today. I say we kill Foolishness.
This almost seems like the textbook case where you vote for a mafia and they immediately counter-vote you. I'm curious though. Before I made that post I had said absolutely nothing regarding bugs, then I make my one liner post after GM's long post. I expected him (or anyone for that matter) to take this as another one of my troll posts that I am apparently famous for. Instead he takes it as a legitimate threat and says that we need to kill me. Note that this is the first time he has directly said that I need to die. I've quoted the majority of posts he's made about me already, but yes, this is the first time. As I said above all of his posts have been casting doubt and suspicion upon me, and never has he concretely said that I need to die. All of this, coming from the person who will switch votes to someone because they made a stupid post.
Something's wrong.
Let's swat this bug away!
##Vote: wherebugsgo
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On December 24 2011 04:57 GGQ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 04:19 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On December 24 2011 03:06 prplhz wrote:On December 24 2011 01:30 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On December 23 2011 18:41 prplhz wrote:
Hey guys
I like GGQ's explanation of night actions. VisceraEyes bombed bumatlarge in Election Mafia on a somewhat flimsy reasonable, he's crazy like that. I think he shot GMarshal. I don't think mafia would shoot VisceraEyes on day1, which is why VisceraEyes shouldn't shoot on day1 if he's blue but again, he's crazy like that.
I think GMarshal was roleblocked last night, because who else would mafia roleblock? If he was roleblocked and he survived there could have been massive chaos day2 and he's a claimed blue who said he'd shoot somebody in the face, scum knows that he isn't kidding around so he's absolutely their best target for roleblock. I think that Chezinu is lying about his roleblock, consequently making him mafia. What do you guys think about that?
I'd post more about him but he's kinda hard to read you know. Read the game... If GM was roleblocked and hit that leaves 4 hits for the mafia/unclaimed, which is way too high. If GM was roleblocked he wouldn't of died because it would block both his hit and his suicide, not just the hit. The mafia know this assuming they are literate and since they thought he was going to hit a townie why would they roleblock GM since it would result in his death anyway? Hint: They wouldn't. I don't even know what to say to this anymore. A bit scummy? I was in PYP:Insane that Protactinium hosted who was part Ver as I understood it. That game had a role called dreamflower that worked kinda like the vigilantes we've seen so far in this game. I really wanted this role so I asked a lot of questions about it and dreamflower only died from hitting someone, if they actually flipped town. Combined with what LSB said, I am going to assume it works like that in this game too. Also, GMarshal told people about his hits at 14:00KST which would leave no room for scum to organize their actions based on what he said. Therefore he did not lie and therefore scum would only know who he was going to hit, too late to change their own actions. This means that GMarshal was roleblocked, or that his target was magically protected by a medic but the latter I find extremely unlikely. VisceraEyes voted GMarshal during the whole claim/counterclaim thing, because VisceraEyes thought it was weird that there was another role like his (LSB) but even weirder that there was a third role. I don't really think this is too weird. I don't think that VisceraEyes was killed by town because he was obvious townie (why aren't you all obvious townies?) and I don't think that VisceraEyes was killed by scum because I don't think scum considered him to be a huge threat. I think it is likely that VisceraEyes shot somebody because he's a crazy man who does stuff like that. Palmar was shot by chaoser, GMarshal was shot by VisceraEyes who had to take responsibility for shooting a townie and died himself. Jackal58 and SamuelLJackson were shot by mafia. This means that the 4 mafia players have 2 hits, which doesn't sound unlikely to me. Sorry if I was unclear about this in my first post. This seems like the simplest explanation to me, any other explanation that assumes that GMarshal flipped himself by hitting you or assumes that GMarshal lied about his claim in his 14:00KST post seems very unlikely to me. I'd much rather assume that VisceraEyes was a responsibility vig than I would assume that GMarshal lied or that GMarshal would flip even without getting hit.
Now did you read the thread? You say here that you are speculating that GMarshal might have been some sort of suicide vigilante, after he had claimed suicide vigilante in the thread. Can you tell me why you are only speculating, that a confirmed townie who claimed suicide vig in thread, might be a suicide vig? "I'm guessing he has some sort of conscience", well the guy said that in this very thread! Did you read the thread? Are you saying that I am scum or what?
I'd actually much rather continue pushing BloodyC0bbler because night hit analysis of this magnitude is bound to have a huge error margin, that's why we can't really agree. wherebugsgo's defense of BloodyC0bbler has been "Yea, but WIFOM?", attacking the one argument that I said was very debatable, and pointing out that a traitor supported it. I thought about how traitors should act, and I don't think they're going to act overly scummy in hopes that scum will find them. They're probably going to act kinda townie while never pushing to get a scum lynched, and then make a guess at the remaining mafia when they have 2 shots and only have to hit 1. If they act scummy, then they get lynched (or shot in the face). I am uncertain as to whether my case was actually good or bad because only wherebugsgo and VisceraEyes ever really commented on it. Right now only me and wherebugsgo are actually trying to say who we find scummy, maybe somebody else could chime in at some point in a non-wishy-washy manner. I said I had not been current up until that point. Your scenario fails to explain why I am not dead, nor was I notified of any hit or protection. You are making some insane scenario to explain the night hits. Gmarshal killed himself. Why would you speculate VE was also the same type of vigi, and if so why the fuck would he hit GM? I am not wasting time responding to you on this anymore, it is a complete waste of time. You are obviously not reading very carefully at all, or you are purposefully misunderstanding. His (my) scenario explains why you are not dead; Gmarshal was roleblocked. Are you subscribing to the explanation that GMarshal shot VE (or possibly jackal or hydra), after claiming he shot you in a post after the deadline? How do you explain this? Or do you think he died for trying to shoot you? In that case, what is your explanation for being alive and not receiving notification of a protection?
I explained I think he kills himself if he targets town. If GM was roleblocked then he wouldn't of killed himself. VE killing Gmarshal assumes VE is a a vigi and that he hit him, two things we have no reason to believe.
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United States2095 Posts
On December 24 2011 05:24 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 05:14 GGQ wrote:On December 23 2011 14:13 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
GM, your scum reads are all incredibly weak. What gives? You have lurker, bad meta, and not playing as good as I think he should be (Which can be said of a lot of people in this game). lol. I thought you were going to give us strong scum reads? This isn't what that list contains.
Also palmar is not acting the same as his town meta, somethings off.
If BC continues to be inactive, he's scum.
Sheth is scummy.
Foolishness and VE townie (VE much more so).
In case I got shot. Wiggles, here you criticize GM for calling people scum for bad reasons, then you use those same reasons to call a bunch of other people scum (sheth for lurking, palmar for bad meta, BC for not playing as good as you think he should). What gives? Nah, I said I got a weird feeling from Palmar, not that he was necessarily scum. I was disagreeing with GMarshal's assessment that he was playing exactly to his meta. Sheth is scummy for lurking, but also because of how he is lurking. He has enough time to read the thread and post in the other game he was in, but all he can do in this one is quote and say "I agree?", that's pretty bad. Also, I don't care how good BC is playing, but right now, he's just kind've gliding along as an inactive/lurker. He said he'd be busy on day 1, which implies that he'll be back to post on day 2. If he doesn't, then I find it likely he's scum. It's the same thing FW did in Personality mafia, where he would just come in with a post every now and then and make excuses. It's day 2, and we have 4 vets, RoL, BC, Foolishness, and L, who haven't actually bothered to commit to anything with regards to other players. They aren't all going to be town, and there's no way they're all scum. So, some of them are just not doing (or at least contributing) anything as town. Also, the difference between GM's post and mine, was I just wanted to give a quick summary of my reads in case I was dead. GM's was his grand contribution to make up for a whole 48 hours of lurking, and was meant to astound us and completely redeem him for his scummy behaviour. It wasn't just that GM called people scum for bad reasons, but also because those were the only reasons he could come up with when his life was probably (and almost literally) on the line, when it came to finding scum.
I've said more then that. I'm just trying to read everything and keep up. I tried to defend LSB. Anyway I'll try to post what I can, but honestly I'm not thinking that well. Just these meds make it somewhat difficult to gather a complicated case. If you want your welcome to lynch me because of that, but I'm still trying my best. Anyway if you have any questions feel free to direct them my way and I'll answer them.
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Notes from a reread:
Chezinu - After looking back on the game, I feel that chezinu is most likely townie. Looking back, (especailly if you're assuming palmar was the traitor though this isn't needed) chenizu's first post of:
On December 20 2011 15:05 Chezinu wrote:I love you bumatlarge...May I join your family? You seem to know your way around this game as if you know what is going on.. Well, you have the men in black at your service. All you have to do is name him. ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/mirror/smilies/coool.gif)
is pretty protown when you look back on it. An extremely blatant traitor crumb, it causes the same problems for mafia as it does for town, mainly, can they trust Chezinu? Him being him, it creates a WIFOM situation for them that is way worse than for us. The difference that it makes, however, is that it was extremely blatant. Had it been more hidden I would have had my doubts about him but since it's so out in the open, it's a protown move. He then posts in ridiculous typical Chenizu fashion while mentioning that the mafia know the blue list. All protownie.
This then brings me to bum who is connected to chenizu somehow and so in my mind that gives him some townie points as well since they seem to be communicating openly and both posting openly.
I'll talk about prplhz, VE's post-death posts, and syllo next
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
Just a heads up, I'm probably going to be incredibly busy over the next few days with three family Christmas parties so I'm not quite sure if I'll be able to be around a computer, but I'll try to keep up with the thread as much as I can. I waited to the last minute again, so I have to go out shopping, but hopefully I'll have some time tonight to share my thoughts.
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This is completely unrelated but as I was thinking about bumatlarge, I thought about Batman and man is he a DOUCHE! He IS the 1%. Dude's parents get killed so he uses all his money to learn martial arts freely and to build gadgets and shit. When he comes back from learning how to be fucking awesome, he's got a fucking mansion to live in. Then he goes out into the streets to fight and capture people who probably had similar misfortunes fall upon them as those that fell on him (parents died to street violence). But since they were not rich, they had no way of getting out of the situation and so they had to turn to a life of crime while Bruce had billions of dollars to help him get back up. THEN when he captures them, he throws them into a prison system where rehabilitation is extremely unlikely and no real treatment aside from "lock them up for a long time" is prescribed to the inmates. So that when they DO get out, they're forced to go back to the same way of life they had once lived, a life of crime. Finally, when it's too late and he gets shit on by the public about how he never deals with the Joker, he is forced to try to change the Joker for the better instead of just continuously locking him up into a failed penal system but by then it's too late and all he can do is continue the cycle of violence as shown in the end of the Killing Joke.
That's some fucked up shit.
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Foolishness, I'm not calling people retards because I was warned not to say the word "fuck." tbh, I'd call you all idiots right now because this entire town is playing horribly, you included, but that's against the spirit of this game. I'd never called for you to die until it was obvious you'd be useless. If you are town, you are the best asset we have. So why the hell would anyone want to kill you day 1? Now, you're alive day 2 and all you've provided is a terribad case on me. You're not town.
I don't understand GGQ's rationale for automatically assuming Chezinu is lying about the roleblock. There's only one way to really find out, and that's to lynch him. However, at the moment Chezinu is not a very good lynch at all.
I'll elaborate more when I'm back; posting from my phone ATM.
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On December 21 2011 01:52 Chezinu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 01:39 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Alright, can you guys please stop speculating on the set up and "triggers". Does this look like insane mafia? Does it look like closed casket mafia? It isn't a themed game, it's normal. You aren't going to say anything that's going to trigger some ridiculous mechanic that blows up half the town. I doubt there is anything anyone can do apart from activity queues that going to trigger some divine intervention.
1.This game is insane. 2. It is themed. 3. There are triggers. 4.Just wait til tonight to see the triggers in work, muahhahaha.
Can you clarify this now, Chezinu? Especially number 4?
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On December 24 2011 01:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 16:32 L wrote:On December 23 2011 15:42 chaoser wrote:
Ok, you bring up a good point. I'll have to retread the whole claiming part of day 1 tomorrow but I still don't understand why gm would feel the need to lie at midnight, when all the actions have been set in stone and a lie would just confuse the town instead of being clean and simple. I feel like a more valid reason for the kills would be that a bus driver bussed his kill but that's also just speculation. RE: Bus driver Bus driver's possible, but the end result with respect to who mafia killed doesn't change, so it becomes entirely irrelevant whether or not he lied, only whether or not he shot Visc. If anyone bussed Visc/RoL they're either delusional or mafia, which means mafia has a bus driver. Which means this game is fucking broken. We can't call shots to confirm anyone. Roles like GM and LSB's can be rerouted with mafia knowledge of who's innocent to change a shot against mafia to a double townie kill. The only way of obtaining proper information about a shooter would be to have at least 3 people shoot during a night. But that's kinda beyond the fact. A driver is an assured +3 for mafia with a single night action. I hope you recognize that even hatters typically don't have that much firepower (3 bomb hatters are a +2 swing and take the entire game to set up). The only night action I've seen do more than a 3 kill swing for a team was the Murrayitis plague, but there were at least five plague related roles acting across 3-4(5?) days in the game that had to engineer the beautiful destruction that we set up for that one. RE: RoL I'm not claiming EITHER lied about their role. If LSB's role wasn't the same as GM's GM wouldn't have had a need to continue pushing him and would have said "oh shit, we DONT have the same role". But that's not the case. Nothing in ANY of LSBs or GMs post indicate that their vig shots do not work vs townies, with LSB basing his plea on the very fact that it does. GM replied to this very point without commenting on it. RE: GGQ So, you have VE shooting GM, who would die or confirm himself as green during the night. No. You also have 3 mafia KP per day which leads to LyLo on day 2 with a single missed justice vig. Double No. I don't like what you are doing. Its blatant fear mongering with insane theorizing behind this games set up. We can assume the mafia probably has a RB, and probably a GF, at most I'd give them one more power role which would probably be a medic which would encourage the idea of responsibility by allowing the mafia to punish the town trying to coordinate publicly. A bus driver makes the game crazy on so many levels while serving the same effect that a medic would by allowing them to disrupt hits, but would do it in a much more destructive manner. You go even farther to say that there must be a bus driver and this game is fucked. Stop talking about crazy shit and be productive, I will just kill you if I see you fear mongering and not being productive one more time, its scummy as shit L and its not going to fly.
RE: You
RoL, there's a difference between mildly not understanding logic and implying that I'm saying the opposite of what I'm saying.
I said there CANNOT be a bus, specifically on the mafia team, because given the roles that have been claimed thus far it would be off the charts ridiculously powerful.
Seriously, what the shit.
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Foolishness I have a question for you:
If you truly believed LSB was town day 1 why did you not speak up? Why did you put in near 0 effort to show to us that he was town? Why did you defend him on meta grounds but not offer examples of the games he's played?
Foolishness, why are you so damn lazy?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/5857/hahamfp.png)
