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EDIT: How come no one comments but everyone votes? =(
One of the main concerns I have right now is the space behind the mains in maps. Take Shattered Temple for example, there is a cliff behind your minerals. Maps like Tal' Darim Altar and Scrap Station have a huge air space behind them. I made this thread to discuss whether this is actually "balanced" and whether or not it should be fixed.
IMO, Zergs benefit from this the most. On most Brood War maps, the edge of the map was a few grids behind your minerals. Some maps even made flying into the mineral line "all-in" or risky, such as Matchpoint, where Mutalisks could be easily trapped by Turrets and Marines.
As a Protoss player, I feel that having a Medivac or Banshee camp behind the cliff is so annoying. Camping Mutalisks in that space makes it much easier to harass as well, as you can just easily fly in and snipe a turret if the Terran is not ready, unlike BW where you had to fly through a distance through the main. Metalopolis has a similar problem, though the space is not AS large. I feel that Zerg benefits from this the most, as placing a single overlord just one grid away from the mineral line can give you vision of this, making it avaiable always for Hydralisks and Queens to attack down Phoenixes and Void Rays, as well as having a versatile unit like the Mutalisk denying other races to use this feature.
Cliffs like Shattered Temple are ok, but I really dislike maps like Tal Darim where you can just leave a Medivac there the entire game and drop everytime I am about to move out.
Poll: How should the air-only space behind mains be fixed?Leave it as is. (183) 61% Remove the space entirely. (110) 37% Amend it some other way (state in comments) (7) 2% 300 total votes Your vote: How should the air-only space behind mains be fixed? (Vote): Remove the space entirely. (Vote): Leave it as is. (Vote): Amend it some other way (state in comments)
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Does the air space in the back of bases hurt Protoss? Yes. Does that mean it should be removed? No.
All maps have areas that favor different races. For example, almost every map has a ramp, which favors Protoss because sentries can FF the ramp and prevent an attacker from being able to shoot or move up the ramp.
You have to learn how to take advantage of your race's specialties and mitigate your opponent's.
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I always wondered why Toss never build 3-4 Phoenix against hard dropping Terrans. It's so effective and takes away a lot of pressure from you.
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On May 15 2011 07:29 FeiLing wrote: I always wondered why Toss never build 3-4 Phoenix against hard dropping Terrans. It's so effective and takes away a lot of pressure from you.
Listen to this guy. Throw up one (1) Stargate against a multi-drop Terran and use Phoenixes to shut it down, especially if he insists on floating over the empty space behind your base.
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On May 15 2011 07:32 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 07:29 FeiLing wrote: I always wondered why Toss never build 3-4 Phoenix against hard dropping Terrans. It's so effective and takes away a lot of pressure from you. Listen to this guy. Throw up one (1) Stargate against a multi-drop Terran and use Phoenixes to shut it down, especially if he insists on floating over the empty space behind your base. Sorry if the OP is misleading, but I am not focusing this problem as to Protoss suffers from it, but to the overall usage of the empty space of cliffs, as Terrans would have a much easier time holding off Mutalisk harass if it wasn't for a space they can easily escape to after harassing the mineral line.
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On May 15 2011 07:36 iTzAnglory wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 07:32 ZasZ. wrote:On May 15 2011 07:29 FeiLing wrote: I always wondered why Toss never build 3-4 Phoenix against hard dropping Terrans. It's so effective and takes away a lot of pressure from you. Listen to this guy. Throw up one (1) Stargate against a multi-drop Terran and use Phoenixes to shut it down, especially if he insists on floating over the empty space behind your base. Sorry if the OP is misleading, but I am not focusing this problem as to Protoss suffers from it, but to the overall usage of the empty space of cliffs, as Terrans would have a much easier time holding off Mutalisk harass if it wasn't for a space they can easily escape to after harassing the mineral line.
Zerg would also have an easier time holding off bunker rushes on metalopolis if there was no dent next to the ramp and instead had a straight wall so Terran couldn't wall himself in. But that doesn't mean that it should be removed. The open spaces are part of the game, I don't see why it should be removed because it makes a certain strategy more effective. You can take the idea further and remove high ground because it makes [Lots of different units/strategies] more powerful.
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I think the space in the back is necessary because it allows a player with air control actually do something with it, as said before. However, on some maps (e.g. Scrap Station) the gap is just too annoying against harass units.. D:
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This would be a horrible idea, you want to make it easier to defend so that Protoss can secure that 200/200 deathball when terran can not engage a Protoss army head on. And neither can zerg for that matter. The defender already has advantage. Thats why you often hear the term "Defenders advantage." Protoss can warp in units and have the fastest air. If you are struggling with drop harrass then you should look at your own play, not try to get blizzard to fix it for you.
As a terran i don't have problems with mutalisk harrass. If you know the timings you know when to put down turrents.
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I don't think its an issue but I guess map makers should play around with that idea. Its not like its something new.
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This is a very specific example/application of something far more general called "base vulnerabilities" that I wrote an article about not long ago.
Umm. Yes. Space behind your main is a base vulnerability (because it is not "edge of map"). Great. All it is is another tool in the mapmaking repertoire to make maps more interesting.
There is precisely zero evidence to suggest that it should not be in at least some maps.
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I'm not sure about this, but on some maps I think it should definitely be reduced just a bit. At least, it doesn't need to be made bigger xD
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Its funny that you wonder why everyone votes but no one comments OP - it might be because all the comments above my post pretty summarise the idea that the empty space dynamic of some maps is not "imbalanced", just like any other dynamic feature (xel'naga watchtowers, ramps, cliffs, chokes) is also not "imbalanced". If you had some supporting material to suggest reasons why empty space should be changed apart from just saying "Well Brood War didn't have it!" maybe you could provoke greater discussion.
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i like the open space behind the bases but some areas are sort of stupid where it becomes almost impossible to control if z ergs get brood lords ie taldarime alter that sort of tree area next to the third base and there is also an area between the main and the natural that gives zergs vission with there overlord but you can't see the overlord until you have collossi out or some air units to give you vision. not sure if it is a bug or not though. but it is annoying knowing that they have a unit that can spot your army but you can't spot the stupid overlord
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On May 15 2011 07:32 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 07:29 FeiLing wrote: I always wondered why Toss never build 3-4 Phoenix against hard dropping Terrans. It's so effective and takes away a lot of pressure from you. Listen to this guy. Throw up one (1) Stargate against a multi-drop Terran and use Phoenixes to shut it down, especially if he insists on floating over the empty space behind your base.
Don't "listen to this guy". If you build phoenixes, then the Terran will just drop his marines from his medivacs, stim, and kill your phoenixes -.-'
Ridiculous advice. Making a whole new tech path that's useless? lol. Medivacs are incorporated into the normal Terran tech tree anyway. You might as well just get blink for the Protoss stalkers you're gonna get anyway.
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iCCup Pawn Re has no space behind the bases and it just sucks. Drop Play and Mutalisk Harras are practically shut down, so it results in boring, easy predictible straight forward games.
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I think map makers should at least think about it and take it into account. The exact way to design it in order to be balanced is yet to be seen. I would think it would be best to have only a small space, such as perhaps on meta (except the same size for all the bases.)
And it would probably be good to have it in varying sizes on different maps... It's possible some maps could still be balanced while not having any at all, but other features to counteract it.
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If the map is full-ranked then the null space (kernel) is obviously trivial.
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How is this Strategy-related?
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Sweden33719 Posts
I would move to general rather than close.
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as a protoss i think its fine to have alot of air space behind a main even though i dont think it benefits protoss. i dont like the temple cliffs though that let an overlord sit in your base for 10mins unkillable until you have air/colossus.
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