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http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=175869
i mainly came up with this idea to counter korean 4gate but i assume it counters tons of other popular Toss vs Toss builds as well
i got this idea after being annoyed so much by korean 4gate in PvP
korean 4gate uses the probe to drop pylons around your base in very annoying to spot locations and in many locations its possible to even put the pylon outside your base and warp in on the lowground (its possible on delta and jungle)
the zealots normally run straight into your minral line and start going to town on your probes if you went for a fast stalker heavy build
well i figured out a pretty nifty way to counter this and other pylon in base zealot shennanigans in PvP. normally you might wanna choke your ramp with a zealot to help stop all that zealot aggression in your mineral line and the sneaky protoss players will find tricky ways to warp zealots into your base on the ledges on delta but this method of simcitychoking is very easy to setup and it will stop those zealots from being able to have a field day with your probes
now instead of having to annoyingly send out your fast stalker to search for korean 4gate pylons and kill the scouting probe, you can send that stalker directly to your opponents base (which if hes doing korean 4gate he has few zealots and probes) and micro that stalker to get some probe or possibly zealot kills. instead of searching for your opponents pylons in your base you can just pressure him right away and create a simcitychoke and when your enemy warps in his zealots to get your probes OOPS theres a choke in your base and he cant break it while your stalkers lol at his zealots
watch the replay its a little idea i had and i think ill be doing this in future PvP's. Its quick to setup and saves your probes
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That's pretty cool, will probably try that out. I get thrashed by Korean 4gates.
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looks good, there is no real point.. i mean if i see that and i would do a korean 4 gate allin i just plant a pylon @ ur buildings so i can warp in some stuff behind ur "wall"
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looks good, there is no real point.. i mean if i see that and i would do a korean 4 gate allin i just plant a pylon @ ur buildings
QFE.
your opponent can still warp in units into your probe lines if they put pylons next to your pylons. Even worse with this simcity since you can't really run them anywhere.
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This seems good, the advantage to this is you reduce by far the area you have to defend and can snipe pylon in the near vicinity of your mineral line while not worrying about the further away ones.
A few stalkers behind this wall can take out a ton of zealots and effectively negates K4G if executed correctly.
Replays of this in action would be interesting though!
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On December 23 2010 16:08 Hammertime wrote:Show nested quote + looks good, there is no real point.. i mean if i see that and i would do a korean 4 gate allin i just plant a pylon @ ur buildings
QFE. your opponent can still warp in units into your probe lines if they put pylons next to your pylons. Even worse with this simcity since you can't really run them anywhere.
hahahaha really?? the power of korean 4gate is in hiding the pylons. if you warp pylons into your enemies base in plain sight of his units you die
think about this for a second, why doesnt every korean 4gate warp in pylons in clear view of their enemy?? because if they did that the pylons would instantly be killed and the korean 4gater would lose
same thing happens against simcitychoke, you are allowed to follow ANY BUILD thats normal in PvP you simply place your buildings to create a choke around your mineral line
this choke will probably be massively useful in many scenarios when your enemy is cheesing. it will be worthless (but not a disadvantage) if your enemy doesnt cheese
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Every time you want to build something your probe will have to run all the way around the back, and if your opponent just puts the pylons right next to your buildings he can still warp zealots in directly on your mineral line while your army has to run all the way around.
Korean 4 gate is also very very easy to scout if you scout on 9. A gateway already building as your probe arrives is a strong indicator. If you see him take his gas and instantly chronoboosts warpgate, just rally your first two zealots to his base since he won't have anything to defend.
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On December 23 2010 16:22 hugedong wrote: Every time you want to build something your probe will have to run all the way around the back, and if your opponent just puts the pylons right next to your buildings he can still warp zealots in directly on your mineral line while your army has to run all the way around.
Korean 4 gate is also very very easy to scout if you scout on 9. A gateway already building as your probe arrives is a strong indicator. If you see him take his gas and instantly chronoboosts warpgate, just rally your first two zealots to his base since he won't have anything to defend.
i am very interested in seeing this korean 4gate that is so powerful it can warp pylongs next to my base and be effective.... please play me using korean 4gate so i can crush you. feel free to "warp in your pylons" next to my buildings and in short distance of my stalkers and zealots as well, please, go right ahead and do that
the distance the probe needs to run is extremely minimal as you just pick a probe next to the choke.... wow...
i will destroy you 20 games in a row if you use korean 4gate against me 20 games in a row. i wont scout you. i will use simcitychoke every game. you can korean 4gate me every game. wanna test out this build in a few days? pm me your user ID and we can play a bit
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On December 23 2010 16:18 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 16:08 Hammertime wrote: looks good, there is no real point.. i mean if i see that and i would do a korean 4 gate allin i just plant a pylon @ ur buildings
QFE. your opponent can still warp in units into your probe lines if they put pylons next to your pylons. Even worse with this simcity since you can't really run them anywhere. hahahaha really?? the power of korean 4gate is in hiding the pylons. if you warp pylons into your enemies base in plain sight of his units you die think about this for a second, why doesnt every korean 4gate warp in pylons in clear view of their enemy?? because if they did that the pylons would instantly be killed and the korean 4gater would lose same thing happens against simcitychoke, you are allowed to follow ANY BUILD thats normal in PvP you simply place your buildings to create a choke around your mineral line this choke will probably be massively useful in many scenarios when your enemy is cheesing. it will be worthless (but not a disadvantage) if your enemy doesnt cheese
The way you do it is hide one maybe two pylons, then put the rest near the mineral line next to walls so you can't surround them and warping in directly on your probes. Your wall will be a huge disadvantage because you will have one zealot and maybe a stalker to kill the pylons, and your probes will take way too long to leave the tiny choke to hit the pylons.
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On December 23 2010 16:18 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 16:08 Hammertime wrote: looks good, there is no real point.. i mean if i see that and i would do a korean 4 gate allin i just plant a pylon @ ur buildings
QFE. your opponent can still warp in units into your probe lines if they put pylons next to your pylons. Even worse with this simcity since you can't really run them anywhere. hahahaha really?? the power of korean 4gate is in hiding the pylons. if you warp pylons into your enemies base in plain sight of his units you die think about this for a second, why doesnt every korean 4gate warp in pylons in clear view of their enemy?? because if they did that the pylons would instantly be killed and the korean 4gater would lose same thing happens against simcitychoke, you are allowed to follow ANY BUILD thats normal in PvP you simply place your buildings to create a choke around your mineral line this choke will probably be massively useful in many scenarios when your enemy is cheesing. it will be worthless (but not a disadvantage) if your enemy doesnt cheese
You've obviously never korean 4-gated someone. You can quite easily warp in 4 pylons in plain sight as long as they're spread out, and it's VERY difficult to take down all 4 before 1 can complete. If 1 completes you're in a heap of trouble.
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On December 23 2010 16:28 hugedong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 16:18 roymarthyup wrote:On December 23 2010 16:08 Hammertime wrote: looks good, there is no real point.. i mean if i see that and i would do a korean 4 gate allin i just plant a pylon @ ur buildings
QFE. your opponent can still warp in units into your probe lines if they put pylons next to your pylons. Even worse with this simcity since you can't really run them anywhere. hahahaha really?? the power of korean 4gate is in hiding the pylons. if you warp pylons into your enemies base in plain sight of his units you die think about this for a second, why doesnt every korean 4gate warp in pylons in clear view of their enemy?? because if they did that the pylons would instantly be killed and the korean 4gater would lose same thing happens against simcitychoke, you are allowed to follow ANY BUILD thats normal in PvP you simply place your buildings to create a choke around your mineral line this choke will probably be massively useful in many scenarios when your enemy is cheesing. it will be worthless (but not a disadvantage) if your enemy doesnt cheese The way you do it is hide one maybe two pylons, then put the rest near the mineral line next to walls so you can't surround them and warping in directly on your probes. Your wall will be a huge disadvantage because you will have one zealot and maybe a stalker to kill the pylons, and your probes will take way too long to leave the tiny choke to hit the pylons.
You've obviously never korean 4-gated someone. You can quite easily warp in 4 pylons in plain sight as long as they're spread out, and it's VERY difficult to take down all 4 before 1 can complete. If 1 completes you're in a heap of trouble. i would love to see you do that against me. I am very interested in seeing how a korean 4gate can actually pull off what you describe
give me your user ID and we can play a few games. You can go korean 4gate every game. I will go 9pylon / 13gate every game. I wont scout you at all so you can place pylons whenever you want
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back up your words with replays. please play some games with me in a few days. whats your user ID
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You know I re typed this like 6 times. Each time I tried to break down the problems with this wall in a very constructive, well thought out manner, but I could not get over one single point because everything comes back to this.
Have you ever considered if your opponent adapts and just builds a forward pylon and goes mass stalker? You're 100% screwed.
You will be sentry light (and sentries are rendered useless by this wall), immobile, your pylons are all ripe for sniping, down 2 gateways and possibly warpagte research, ands against a guy who cut mad probes to get where he is, using one less geyser, and just found out he only has to spend 100 on pylons instead of 400?
Yes this wall is pretty damn safe from 4 Korean warpgate zealot, however any player with any game sense what so ever will just go stalker and run you over.
You got the right concept, but the build AND the actual wall are wrong, keep messing with it.
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On December 23 2010 17:02 iCCup.Diamond wrote:You know I re typed this like 6 times. Each time I tried to break down the problems with this wall in a very constructive, well thought out manner, but I could not get over one single point because everything comes back to this. Have you ever considered if your opponent adapts and just builds a forward pylon and goes mass stalker? You're 100% screwed. You will be sentry light (and sentries are rendered useless by this wall), immobile, your pylons are all ripe for sniping, down 2 gateways and possibly warpagte research, ands against a guy who cut mad probes to get where he is, using one less geyser, and just found out he only has to spend 100 on pylons instead of 400? Yes this wall is pretty damn safe from 4 Korean warpgate zealot, however any player with any game sense what so ever will just go stalker and run you over. You got the right concept, but the build AND the actual wall are wrong, keep messing with it.
I am not promoting a "build".
I am promoting a "concept" or "tactic" of creating a choke in your base with your first few buildings. Every standard protoss build gets some buildings, so you may as well choke your base with it because its better than walling your ramp
anything you say about being sentry light or lacking in anything is a pointless argument against my idea because you are attacking the build in the replay, you are not attacking the concept which is the only thing im trying to promote with this thread.
you can attack the build all you want but there is no "build" in this thread im trying to promote, the only build is in the replay which is just me messing around creating the wall.
All im talking about is walling your minerals with a sim sity choke, any standard PvP build can do this
THERE IS NO BUILD I AM TRYING TO PROMOTE. Every single standard PvP build can simcitychoke because every single standard PvP build makes a bunch of buildings. IF you wanna make arguments in this thread, they should be attacking the simcitychoke concept and NOT any build or strategy because there is no build or strategy to argue against (as i am not presenting any)
saying "what if your opponent opens many stalkers, you will be light on sentries" has no bearing on the choke concept. If your opponent opens many stalkers then you open whatever standard PvP build counters that
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On December 23 2010 16:18 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 16:08 Hammertime wrote: looks good, there is no real point.. i mean if i see that and i would do a korean 4 gate allin i just plant a pylon @ ur buildings
QFE. your opponent can still warp in units into your probe lines if they put pylons next to your pylons. Even worse with this simcity since you can't really run them anywhere. hahahaha really?? the power of korean 4gate is in hiding the pylons. if you warp pylons into your enemies base in plain sight of his units you die think about this for a second, why doesnt every korean 4gate warp in pylons in clear view of their enemy?? because if they did that the pylons would instantly be killed and the korean 4gater would lose same thing happens against simcitychoke, you are allowed to follow ANY BUILD thats normal in PvP you simply place your buildings to create a choke around your mineral line this choke will probably be massively useful in many scenarios when your enemy is cheesing. it will be worthless (but not a disadvantage) if your enemy doesnt cheese
Not true, you can warp them in plain sight but it is almost always better to have a few or all of them hidden. You start warping them in at 16-18 supply and it will take them a long time to destroy the pylons with 1-2 zealots, almost always leaving you with a few to warp in.
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On December 23 2010 17:41 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 17:02 iCCup.Diamond wrote:You know I re typed this like 6 times. Each time I tried to break down the problems with this wall in a very constructive, well thought out manner, but I could not get over one single point because everything comes back to this. Have you ever considered if your opponent adapts and just builds a forward pylon and goes mass stalker? You're 100% screwed. You will be sentry light (and sentries are rendered useless by this wall), immobile, your pylons are all ripe for sniping, down 2 gateways and possibly warpagte research, ands against a guy who cut mad probes to get where he is, using one less geyser, and just found out he only has to spend 100 on pylons instead of 400? Yes this wall is pretty damn safe from 4 Korean warpgate zealot, however any player with any game sense what so ever will just go stalker and run you over. You got the right concept, but the build AND the actual wall are wrong, keep messing with it. I am not promoting a "build". I am promoting a "concept" or "tactic" of creating a choke in your base with your first few buildings. Every standard protoss build gets some buildings, so you may as well choke your base with it because its better than walling your ramp anything you say about being sentry light or lacking in anything is a pointless argument against my idea because you are attacking the build in the replay, you are not attacking the concept which is the only thing im trying to promote with this thread. you can attack the build all you want but there is no "build" in this thread im trying to promote, the only build is in the replay which is just me messing around creating the wall. All im talking about is walling your minerals with a sim sity choke, any standard PvP build can do this THERE IS NO BUILD I AM TRYING TO PROMOTE. Every single standard PvP build can simcitychoke because every single standard PvP build makes a bunch of buildings. IF you wanna make arguments in this thread, they should be attacking the simcitychoke concept and NOT any build or strategy because there is no build or strategy to argue against (as i am not presenting any) saying "what if your opponent opens many stalkers, you will be light on sentries" has no bearing on the choke concept. If your opponent opens many stalkers then you open whatever standard PvP build counters that
Ok I get it, you are not promoting a build, which I thought you were. Repeating yourself over and over like a small child however does not help anything.
I'm not attacking anything, just saying based off the replay is not viable. There is ways to wall off in PvP but it should not be a complete wall like yours, just protecting the front side from zealots. Sure it's not 4 gate zealot proxy pylon proof but I'm really surprised people are still having problems with this. You know works even better? Building a single stalker and killing the probe.....
Anyways best of luck in the future, this is just theroycrafting, I thought you may have had a unique build to achieve it or anything, but it's purely a concept, and one that makes attacking your base very easy, and leaving pylons massively exposed.
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On December 23 2010 17:54 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 17:41 roymarthyup wrote:On December 23 2010 17:02 iCCup.Diamond wrote:You know I re typed this like 6 times. Each time I tried to break down the problems with this wall in a very constructive, well thought out manner, but I could not get over one single point because everything comes back to this. Have you ever considered if your opponent adapts and just builds a forward pylon and goes mass stalker? You're 100% screwed. You will be sentry light (and sentries are rendered useless by this wall), immobile, your pylons are all ripe for sniping, down 2 gateways and possibly warpagte research, ands against a guy who cut mad probes to get where he is, using one less geyser, and just found out he only has to spend 100 on pylons instead of 400? Yes this wall is pretty damn safe from 4 Korean warpgate zealot, however any player with any game sense what so ever will just go stalker and run you over. You got the right concept, but the build AND the actual wall are wrong, keep messing with it. I am not promoting a "build". I am promoting a "concept" or "tactic" of creating a choke in your base with your first few buildings. Every standard protoss build gets some buildings, so you may as well choke your base with it because its better than walling your ramp anything you say about being sentry light or lacking in anything is a pointless argument against my idea because you are attacking the build in the replay, you are not attacking the concept which is the only thing im trying to promote with this thread. you can attack the build all you want but there is no "build" in this thread im trying to promote, the only build is in the replay which is just me messing around creating the wall. All im talking about is walling your minerals with a sim sity choke, any standard PvP build can do this THERE IS NO BUILD I AM TRYING TO PROMOTE. Every single standard PvP build can simcitychoke because every single standard PvP build makes a bunch of buildings. IF you wanna make arguments in this thread, they should be attacking the simcitychoke concept and NOT any build or strategy because there is no build or strategy to argue against (as i am not presenting any) saying "what if your opponent opens many stalkers, you will be light on sentries" has no bearing on the choke concept. If your opponent opens many stalkers then you open whatever standard PvP build counters that Ok I get it, you are not promoting a build, which I thought you were. Repeating yourself over and over like a small child however does not help anything. I'm not attacking anything, just saying based off the replay is not viable. There is ways to wall off in PvP but it should not be a complete wall like yours, just protecting the front side from zealots. Sure it's not 4 gate zealot proxy pylon proof but I'm really surprised people are still having problems with this. You know works even better? Building a single stalker and killing the probe..... Anyways best of luck in the future, this is just theroycrafting, I thought you may have had a unique build to achieve it or anything, but it's purely a concept, and one that makes attacking your base very easy, and leaving pylons massively exposed.
my bad if i sounded like a child i just wanted to make it clear for everyone i wasnt promoting a build. im sorry my bad
and people could just wall the ramp. i guess this idea is only for people who wanna do it to stop korean 4gates . also i guess another reason is you can send your first stalkers to pressure your enemy instead of wasting time trying to find that probe to kill. that should let you get to your enemy and pressure him 15 seconds sooner to punish him if he did a build that is low on stalkers or slow on stalkers
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You are being overly defensive when people raise valid points. Your build does not defend against korean 4 gate whatsoever. It might help against proxy gates , but if you 13 gate you are screwed either way unless your opponent doesn't micro at all.
The wall is detrimental against any air or warp prism play because you can't defend your mineral line without running all your probes through a tiny choke and losing most of them.
edit: actually it doesn't even defend against proxy gate because the zealots come before you have that many buildings.
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I'm not a big fan of PvP and whenever I get sick of it, I will go for some 4 gate variation to try to end it quickly, so I've Korean 4 Warpgated plenty of people (always with gas... so warp in 2-3 stalker, 1-2 zealots). When it comes to warping in pylons in my opponents base, I find the most effective way is to put one out of sight of his base, one close to his buildings and one close to an assimilator.
Your walloff might very well protect your mineral line, but in order to do it you have to spread your pylons out a lot. Many people really want to get at the probes, but sniping pylons is just as effective and if I see a single pylon powering a gate and the core (as in your screenshot) I'll happily go for those and ignore your probes.
I've seen people try stuff like that, but I've never lost with a K4G because of my opponents building placement. You need to match his units to defend it. That's really all there is to it.
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