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On October 12 2022 20:30 tskarzyn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2022 18:06 Charoisaur wrote:On October 12 2022 11:56 tskarzyn wrote:
I'm a huge Maru fanboy, but Serral has to be the goat.
-Winning record vs. the other GOAT contenders (Maru, Rogue)
-#1 in premier wins
-#1 in win rate (he has won an insane 77% of tournament matches)
-#1 in top 3 finish per tournament played
The only asterisk on his record is the fact that he plays what seems to be, going strictly by the data, the strongest race. I'm not sure that's enough to give Maru the edge. All of those criteria except the first are heavily biased in favor of Serral due to the fact he can farm region-locked tournaments. Rogue has won the most high-prestige tournaments. Maru has the highest longevity, has won by far the most korean tournaments, won in the most competitive era and as you already mentioned had the ability to defy the odds in terms of race balance. I'm not saying there is a clear Goat as it depends on criteria but cherry-picking statistics which are obviously biased in favor of 1 player and take that as proof he is the Goat is quite disingenous. Here's a soft criteria. $1M tournament in one month. Neutral location, somewhere that's difficult for everyone to get to. Who is your favorite to win? Maru has longevity, yes, but you'd also expect a lot more wins from a GOAT with that longevity. I can't count the number of times he and Rogue have bombed out of tournaments. Serral's bad days are a top 4 finish, and he's the favorite in every tournament he enters.
That's easy, I'd pick Rogue. He's the ultimate big match player.
Btw this question has nothing to do with who is the greatest player of all time because it only asks for the best player at the moment
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On October 12 2022 20:51 Lokol18 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2022 20:30 tskarzyn wrote:On October 12 2022 18:06 Charoisaur wrote:On October 12 2022 11:56 tskarzyn wrote:
I'm a huge Maru fanboy, but Serral has to be the goat.
-Winning record vs. the other GOAT contenders (Maru, Rogue)
-#1 in premier wins
-#1 in win rate (he has won an insane 77% of tournament matches)
-#1 in top 3 finish per tournament played
The only asterisk on his record is the fact that he plays what seems to be, going strictly by the data, the strongest race. I'm not sure that's enough to give Maru the edge. All of those criteria except the first are heavily biased in favor of Serral due to the fact he can farm region-locked tournaments. Rogue has won the most high-prestige tournaments. Maru has the highest longevity, has won by far the most korean tournaments, won in the most competitive era and as you already mentioned had the ability to defy the odds in terms of race balance. I'm not saying there is a clear Goat as it depends on criteria but cherry-picking statistics which are obviously biased in favor of 1 player and take that as proof he is the Goat is quite disingenous. Here's a soft criteria. $1M tournament in one month. Neutral location, somewhere that's difficult for everyone to get to. Who is your favorite to win? Maru has longevity, yes, but you'd also expect a lot more wins from a GOAT with that longevity. I can't count the number of times he and Rogue have bombed out of tournaments. Serral's bad days are a top 4 finish, and he's the favorite in every tournament he enters. It's a lot easier to be consistent when the tournaments you play in are on average easier in the earlier stages (by virtue of having a bunch of foreigners in them). I'm willing to bet money that maru bombing out of foreign tournaments means in 99% of cases just getting top 4 Edit: the worse result he has had in a foreign tournament since 2021 was a top 8 at iem. Every other result is a top 4, top 2, or top 1.  Maru/Results
Actually Reynor being eliminated in the first round is good proof of that. Serral also lost in the DH Last Chance group stage by losing twice to DRG.
If he would always play in tournaments in which the groupstages are already this stacked he would certainly also get eliminated early more often
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On October 12 2022 21:34 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2022 20:51 Lokol18 wrote:On October 12 2022 20:30 tskarzyn wrote:On October 12 2022 18:06 Charoisaur wrote:On October 12 2022 11:56 tskarzyn wrote:
I'm a huge Maru fanboy, but Serral has to be the goat.
-Winning record vs. the other GOAT contenders (Maru, Rogue)
-#1 in premier wins
-#1 in win rate (he has won an insane 77% of tournament matches)
-#1 in top 3 finish per tournament played
The only asterisk on his record is the fact that he plays what seems to be, going strictly by the data, the strongest race. I'm not sure that's enough to give Maru the edge. All of those criteria except the first are heavily biased in favor of Serral due to the fact he can farm region-locked tournaments. Rogue has won the most high-prestige tournaments. Maru has the highest longevity, has won by far the most korean tournaments, won in the most competitive era and as you already mentioned had the ability to defy the odds in terms of race balance. I'm not saying there is a clear Goat as it depends on criteria but cherry-picking statistics which are obviously biased in favor of 1 player and take that as proof he is the Goat is quite disingenous. Here's a soft criteria. $1M tournament in one month. Neutral location, somewhere that's difficult for everyone to get to. Who is your favorite to win? Maru has longevity, yes, but you'd also expect a lot more wins from a GOAT with that longevity. I can't count the number of times he and Rogue have bombed out of tournaments. Serral's bad days are a top 4 finish, and he's the favorite in every tournament he enters. It's a lot easier to be consistent when the tournaments you play in are on average easier in the earlier stages (by virtue of having a bunch of foreigners in them). I'm willing to bet money that maru bombing out of foreign tournaments means in 99% of cases just getting top 4 Edit: the worse result he has had in a foreign tournament since 2021 was a top 8 at iem. Every other result is a top 4, top 2, or top 1. Maru/Results Actually Reynor being eliminated in the first round is good proof of that. Serral also lost in the DH Last Chance group stage by losing twice to DRG. If he would always play in tournaments in which the groupstages are already this stacked he would certainly also get eliminated early more often
Delusional as always
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On October 13 2022 00:06 BelethielQT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2022 21:34 Charoisaur wrote:On October 12 2022 20:51 Lokol18 wrote:On October 12 2022 20:30 tskarzyn wrote:On October 12 2022 18:06 Charoisaur wrote:On October 12 2022 11:56 tskarzyn wrote:
I'm a huge Maru fanboy, but Serral has to be the goat.
-Winning record vs. the other GOAT contenders (Maru, Rogue)
-#1 in premier wins
-#1 in win rate (he has won an insane 77% of tournament matches)
-#1 in top 3 finish per tournament played
The only asterisk on his record is the fact that he plays what seems to be, going strictly by the data, the strongest race. I'm not sure that's enough to give Maru the edge. All of those criteria except the first are heavily biased in favor of Serral due to the fact he can farm region-locked tournaments. Rogue has won the most high-prestige tournaments. Maru has the highest longevity, has won by far the most korean tournaments, won in the most competitive era and as you already mentioned had the ability to defy the odds in terms of race balance. I'm not saying there is a clear Goat as it depends on criteria but cherry-picking statistics which are obviously biased in favor of 1 player and take that as proof he is the Goat is quite disingenous. Here's a soft criteria. $1M tournament in one month. Neutral location, somewhere that's difficult for everyone to get to. Who is your favorite to win? Maru has longevity, yes, but you'd also expect a lot more wins from a GOAT with that longevity. I can't count the number of times he and Rogue have bombed out of tournaments. Serral's bad days are a top 4 finish, and he's the favorite in every tournament he enters. It's a lot easier to be consistent when the tournaments you play in are on average easier in the earlier stages (by virtue of having a bunch of foreigners in them). I'm willing to bet money that maru bombing out of foreign tournaments means in 99% of cases just getting top 4 Edit: the worse result he has had in a foreign tournament since 2021 was a top 8 at iem. Every other result is a top 4, top 2, or top 1. Maru/Results Actually Reynor being eliminated in the first round is good proof of that. Serral also lost in the DH Last Chance group stage by losing twice to DRG. If he would always play in tournaments in which the groupstages are already this stacked he would certainly also get eliminated early more often Delusional as always
You're right, I'm sure Maru would struggle extremely hard against the like of ForJumy, BattleB or KingCobra
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France11708 Posts
On October 13 2022 00:15 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 00:06 BelethielQT wrote:On October 12 2022 21:34 Charoisaur wrote:On October 12 2022 20:51 Lokol18 wrote:On October 12 2022 20:30 tskarzyn wrote:On October 12 2022 18:06 Charoisaur wrote:On October 12 2022 11:56 tskarzyn wrote:
I'm a huge Maru fanboy, but Serral has to be the goat.
-Winning record vs. the other GOAT contenders (Maru, Rogue)
-#1 in premier wins
-#1 in win rate (he has won an insane 77% of tournament matches)
-#1 in top 3 finish per tournament played
The only asterisk on his record is the fact that he plays what seems to be, going strictly by the data, the strongest race. I'm not sure that's enough to give Maru the edge. All of those criteria except the first are heavily biased in favor of Serral due to the fact he can farm region-locked tournaments. Rogue has won the most high-prestige tournaments. Maru has the highest longevity, has won by far the most korean tournaments, won in the most competitive era and as you already mentioned had the ability to defy the odds in terms of race balance. I'm not saying there is a clear Goat as it depends on criteria but cherry-picking statistics which are obviously biased in favor of 1 player and take that as proof he is the Goat is quite disingenous. Here's a soft criteria. $1M tournament in one month. Neutral location, somewhere that's difficult for everyone to get to. Who is your favorite to win? Maru has longevity, yes, but you'd also expect a lot more wins from a GOAT with that longevity. I can't count the number of times he and Rogue have bombed out of tournaments. Serral's bad days are a top 4 finish, and he's the favorite in every tournament he enters. It's a lot easier to be consistent when the tournaments you play in are on average easier in the earlier stages (by virtue of having a bunch of foreigners in them). I'm willing to bet money that maru bombing out of foreign tournaments means in 99% of cases just getting top 4 Edit: the worse result he has had in a foreign tournament since 2021 was a top 8 at iem. Every other result is a top 4, top 2, or top 1. Maru/Results Actually Reynor being eliminated in the first round is good proof of that. Serral also lost in the DH Last Chance group stage by losing twice to DRG. If he would always play in tournaments in which the groupstages are already this stacked he would certainly also get eliminated early more often Delusional as always You're right, I'm sure Maru would struggle extremely hard against the like of ForJumy, BattleB or KingCobra
Well we have seen him lose (although with ping) to Harstem very recently in WTL, who should be around the same level as ForJumy atm so it could happen! But playing from the same region / low ping in bo3+ I doubt he would drop many series to the cannon fodder players that are most players of DH:EU groups indeed
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MVP is the goat.
maru has played a lot more years and still he hasnt passed MVP.
MVP will always be the goat.
injuries killed him, but he was the best ever.
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On October 12 2022 20:51 Lokol18 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2022 20:30 tskarzyn wrote:On October 12 2022 18:06 Charoisaur wrote:On October 12 2022 11:56 tskarzyn wrote:
I'm a huge Maru fanboy, but Serral has to be the goat.
-Winning record vs. the other GOAT contenders (Maru, Rogue)
-#1 in premier wins
-#1 in win rate (he has won an insane 77% of tournament matches)
-#1 in top 3 finish per tournament played
The only asterisk on his record is the fact that he plays what seems to be, going strictly by the data, the strongest race. I'm not sure that's enough to give Maru the edge. All of those criteria except the first are heavily biased in favor of Serral due to the fact he can farm region-locked tournaments. Rogue has won the most high-prestige tournaments. Maru has the highest longevity, has won by far the most korean tournaments, won in the most competitive era and as you already mentioned had the ability to defy the odds in terms of race balance. I'm not saying there is a clear Goat as it depends on criteria but cherry-picking statistics which are obviously biased in favor of 1 player and take that as proof he is the Goat is quite disingenous. Here's a soft criteria. $1M tournament in one month. Neutral location, somewhere that's difficult for everyone to get to. Who is your favorite to win? Maru has longevity, yes, but you'd also expect a lot more wins from a GOAT with that longevity. I can't count the number of times he and Rogue have bombed out of tournaments. Serral's bad days are a top 4 finish, and he's the favorite in every tournament he enters. It's a lot easier to be consistent when the tournaments you play in are on average easier in the earlier stages (by virtue of having a bunch of foreigners in them). I'm willing to bet money that maru bombing out of foreign tournaments means in 99% of cases just getting top 4 Edit: the worse result he has had in a foreign tournament since 2021 was a top 8 at iem. Every other result is a top 4, top 2, or top 1. Maru/Results
Yes, if you go off recent history Maru has been fairly consistent. Zoom out and look at 2019 to present? Serral has 13 premiers to Maru's 7. Look at win rate vs koreans (since the argument is that Serral plays lesser competition). And again, Serral and Maru have played a decent amount - Serral is the favorite in their head to head matches. So... Maru wins fewer tournaments, he is an underdog to the main GOAT competitor, he has a lower win rate vs the same players... I love Maru and think he is the better player (Zerg, cmon), but he doesn't get GOAT status on his accomplishments. He only gets it if you put an asterisk next to Serral for playing Zerg.
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Maru performs better than Serral in GSL, so that proves he is better overall.
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On October 13 2022 11:00 tskarzyn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2022 20:51 Lokol18 wrote:On October 12 2022 20:30 tskarzyn wrote:On October 12 2022 18:06 Charoisaur wrote:On October 12 2022 11:56 tskarzyn wrote:
I'm a huge Maru fanboy, but Serral has to be the goat.
-Winning record vs. the other GOAT contenders (Maru, Rogue)
-#1 in premier wins
-#1 in win rate (he has won an insane 77% of tournament matches)
-#1 in top 3 finish per tournament played
The only asterisk on his record is the fact that he plays what seems to be, going strictly by the data, the strongest race. I'm not sure that's enough to give Maru the edge. All of those criteria except the first are heavily biased in favor of Serral due to the fact he can farm region-locked tournaments. Rogue has won the most high-prestige tournaments. Maru has the highest longevity, has won by far the most korean tournaments, won in the most competitive era and as you already mentioned had the ability to defy the odds in terms of race balance. I'm not saying there is a clear Goat as it depends on criteria but cherry-picking statistics which are obviously biased in favor of 1 player and take that as proof he is the Goat is quite disingenous. Here's a soft criteria. $1M tournament in one month. Neutral location, somewhere that's difficult for everyone to get to. Who is your favorite to win? Maru has longevity, yes, but you'd also expect a lot more wins from a GOAT with that longevity. I can't count the number of times he and Rogue have bombed out of tournaments. Serral's bad days are a top 4 finish, and he's the favorite in every tournament he enters. It's a lot easier to be consistent when the tournaments you play in are on average easier in the earlier stages (by virtue of having a bunch of foreigners in them). I'm willing to bet money that maru bombing out of foreign tournaments means in 99% of cases just getting top 4 Edit: the worse result he has had in a foreign tournament since 2021 was a top 8 at iem. Every other result is a top 4, top 2, or top 1. Maru/Results Yes, if you go off recent history Maru has been fairly consistent. Zoom out and look at 2019 to present? Serral has 13 premiers to Maru's 7. Look at win rate vs koreans (since the argument is that Serral plays lesser competition). And again, Serral and Maru have played a decent amount - Serral is the favorite in their head to head matches. So... Maru wins fewer tournaments, he is an underdog to the main GOAT competitor, he has a lower win rate vs the same players... I love Maru and think he is the better player (Zerg, cmon), but he doesn't get GOAT status on his accomplishments. He only gets it if you put an asterisk next to Serral for playing Zerg.
Maru gets it because Starleagues are around the same or harder difficulty as world championships and Maru has won 6 of them. Soon to be 7. Serral has only won 2 world championships and no starleagues. 6 (7) > 2. Maru is also the best sc2 proleague player which is a very underrated achievement.
Even in regards to just 2019 to current performance at least 4-5 of those Serral premier wins are events with barely any or even 0 Koreans. I can't give much credit for any event with <8 Koreans which makes their results a lot closer. Maru has won harder events that didn't get the premier title (Kob, Asus) than some of Serral's premiers.
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On October 13 2022 11:00 tskarzyn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2022 20:51 Lokol18 wrote:On October 12 2022 20:30 tskarzyn wrote:On October 12 2022 18:06 Charoisaur wrote:On October 12 2022 11:56 tskarzyn wrote:
I'm a huge Maru fanboy, but Serral has to be the goat.
-Winning record vs. the other GOAT contenders (Maru, Rogue)
-#1 in premier wins
-#1 in win rate (he has won an insane 77% of tournament matches)
-#1 in top 3 finish per tournament played
The only asterisk on his record is the fact that he plays what seems to be, going strictly by the data, the strongest race. I'm not sure that's enough to give Maru the edge. All of those criteria except the first are heavily biased in favor of Serral due to the fact he can farm region-locked tournaments. Rogue has won the most high-prestige tournaments. Maru has the highest longevity, has won by far the most korean tournaments, won in the most competitive era and as you already mentioned had the ability to defy the odds in terms of race balance. I'm not saying there is a clear Goat as it depends on criteria but cherry-picking statistics which are obviously biased in favor of 1 player and take that as proof he is the Goat is quite disingenous. Here's a soft criteria. $1M tournament in one month. Neutral location, somewhere that's difficult for everyone to get to. Who is your favorite to win? Maru has longevity, yes, but you'd also expect a lot more wins from a GOAT with that longevity. I can't count the number of times he and Rogue have bombed out of tournaments. Serral's bad days are a top 4 finish, and he's the favorite in every tournament he enters. It's a lot easier to be consistent when the tournaments you play in are on average easier in the earlier stages (by virtue of having a bunch of foreigners in them). I'm willing to bet money that maru bombing out of foreign tournaments means in 99% of cases just getting top 4 Edit: the worse result he has had in a foreign tournament since 2021 was a top 8 at iem. Every other result is a top 4, top 2, or top 1. Maru/Results Yes, if you go off recent history Maru has been fairly consistent. Zoom out and look at 2019 to present? Serral has 13 premiers to Maru's 7. Look at win rate vs koreans (since the argument is that Serral plays lesser competition). And again, Serral and Maru have played a decent amount - Serral is the favorite in their head to head matches. So... Maru wins fewer tournaments, he is an underdog to the main GOAT competitor, he has a lower win rate vs the same players... I love Maru and think he is the better player (Zerg, cmon), but he doesn't get GOAT status on his accomplishments. He only gets it if you put an asterisk next to Serral for playing Zerg.
Why look only at 2019-now?
I thought Goat stands for greatest player of all time and not greatest player since 2019?
And the same argument I already talked about still stands.
It depends all on criteria. By those cherry-picked criteria by you Serral is the best but by other criteria like high-prestige tournament wins Maru and Rogue are above him.
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On October 13 2022 15:35 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 11:00 tskarzyn wrote:On October 12 2022 20:51 Lokol18 wrote:On October 12 2022 20:30 tskarzyn wrote:On October 12 2022 18:06 Charoisaur wrote:On October 12 2022 11:56 tskarzyn wrote:
I'm a huge Maru fanboy, but Serral has to be the goat.
-Winning record vs. the other GOAT contenders (Maru, Rogue)
-#1 in premier wins
-#1 in win rate (he has won an insane 77% of tournament matches)
-#1 in top 3 finish per tournament played
The only asterisk on his record is the fact that he plays what seems to be, going strictly by the data, the strongest race. I'm not sure that's enough to give Maru the edge. All of those criteria except the first are heavily biased in favor of Serral due to the fact he can farm region-locked tournaments. Rogue has won the most high-prestige tournaments. Maru has the highest longevity, has won by far the most korean tournaments, won in the most competitive era and as you already mentioned had the ability to defy the odds in terms of race balance. I'm not saying there is a clear Goat as it depends on criteria but cherry-picking statistics which are obviously biased in favor of 1 player and take that as proof he is the Goat is quite disingenous. Here's a soft criteria. $1M tournament in one month. Neutral location, somewhere that's difficult for everyone to get to. Who is your favorite to win? Maru has longevity, yes, but you'd also expect a lot more wins from a GOAT with that longevity. I can't count the number of times he and Rogue have bombed out of tournaments. Serral's bad days are a top 4 finish, and he's the favorite in every tournament he enters. It's a lot easier to be consistent when the tournaments you play in are on average easier in the earlier stages (by virtue of having a bunch of foreigners in them). I'm willing to bet money that maru bombing out of foreign tournaments means in 99% of cases just getting top 4 Edit: the worse result he has had in a foreign tournament since 2021 was a top 8 at iem. Every other result is a top 4, top 2, or top 1. Maru/Results Yes, if you go off recent history Maru has been fairly consistent. Zoom out and look at 2019 to present? Serral has 13 premiers to Maru's 7. Look at win rate vs koreans (since the argument is that Serral plays lesser competition). And again, Serral and Maru have played a decent amount - Serral is the favorite in their head to head matches. So... Maru wins fewer tournaments, he is an underdog to the main GOAT competitor, he has a lower win rate vs the same players... I love Maru and think he is the better player (Zerg, cmon), but he doesn't get GOAT status on his accomplishments. He only gets it if you put an asterisk next to Serral for playing Zerg. Why look only at 2019-now? I thought Goat stands for greatest player of all time and not greatest player since 2019? And the same argument I already talked about still stands. It depends all on criteria. By those cherry-picked criteria by you Serral is the best but by other criteria like high-prestige tournament wins Maru and Rogue are above him.
It's subjective, so all opinions are welcome. For me, GOAT is truly greatest of all time. What Serral has done to top level players and the consistency he's done it with is, imo, unmatched. This debate is also unique, in that we don't have to imagine how Serral would fare against other GOAT contenders. (e.g. MJ in today's NBA.) All of the GOAT contenders are active and in their prime, and Serral has the edge on all of them in head-to-heads. The best argument for Maru's GOAT status is the possibility that Zerg is simply the strongest race. I'm a huge Maru fanboy and think he probably has the edge if they both take the other's race.
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On October 08 2022 14:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2022 11:49 wchigo wrote:
Will this finally be the time that we see the G5L be awarded?!?! :O Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever?
You kinda need at least one world champion title for this, at the moment Maru is not even a contender for being the goat
However he's without a doubt the best Terran ever
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On October 14 2022 16:51 NeWHoriZonS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2022 14:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On October 08 2022 11:49 wchigo wrote:
Will this finally be the time that we see the G5L be awarded?!?! :O Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever? You kinda need at least one world champion title for this, at the moment Maru is not even a contender for being the goat However he's without a doubt the best Terran ever
Counterpoint: the sc2 goat is the person who approximates Flash's sc1 performance the most because at least in sc1 he's pretty much the undisputed goat. If you accept this premise, not having a world championship doesn't preclude maru from being the goat.
Just like Flash, maru was the top proleague player for several years. Consistently the last terran standing, to the point where the Korean community labeled him the 4th race. Also is the most consistent player in the history of the game, winning his first premier tournament all the way back in 2015. In fact, he's the only player who has truly succeeded across different expansions. Being a top player when your race is strong is a lot different than doing the same when your race is weak
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France11708 Posts
On October 14 2022 16:51 NeWHoriZonS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2022 14:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On October 08 2022 11:49 wchigo wrote:
Will this finally be the time that we see the G5L be awarded?!?! :O Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever? You kinda need at least one world champion title for this, at the moment Maru is not even a contender for being the goat However he's without a doubt the best Terran ever
I doubt this is that much of a criterion given the fact that GSL is as difficult to win or harder than BlizzCon, and similar to IEM Katowice, minus prize pool (he won WESG though for the big prizepool tournament). When you add on top of that the sheer number of consecutive zerg wins in world championship, it becomes even more of a non factor not to win it as a non zerg player.
Maru is probably in contention with Rogue for GOAT title depending on criteria, and INno is the third candidate.
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On October 15 2022 01:07 Lokol18 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2022 16:51 NeWHoriZonS wrote:On October 08 2022 14:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On October 08 2022 11:49 wchigo wrote:
Will this finally be the time that we see the G5L be awarded?!?! :O Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever? You kinda need at least one world champion title for this, at the moment Maru is not even a contender for being the goat However he's without a doubt the best Terran ever Counterpoint: the sc2 goat is the person who approximates Flash's sc1 performance the most because at least in sc1 he's pretty much the undisputed goat. If you accept this premise, not having a world championship doesn't preclude maru from being the goat. Just like Flash, maru was the top proleague player for several years. Consistently the last terran standing, to the point where the Korean community labeled him the 4th race. Also is the most consistent player in the history of the game, winning his first premier tournament all the way back in 2015. In fact, he's the only player who has truly succeeded across different expansions. Being a top player when your race is strong is a lot different than doing the same when your race is weak
Correction: He won his first premier tournament in 2013
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Uh, I wasn't involved in GOAT discussions since 2018 when we had the big Maru vs Serral debates. I think the major problem still is, we don't have enough comparable data. Serral competed vs. weaker players most of the time but was more successful when facing the best. Maru on the other hand managed more wins vs. tougher competition but "failed" on quite some occasions where Serral was successful.
At the same time weekenders and league formats are so different, it's kind of pointless to compare the GOATS of those different skillsets. Thus, as long as Serral isn't participating in GSL-like formats, the GOAT-question will have to remain undecided. And since Serral has no incentive to compete in GSL this won't change.
I'm personally leaning towards Maru with his 6 Starleague championships (4 of them in a row which still is unbelievable) beginning in the era of toughest competition plus insane proleague records plus quite some weekenders.
But Serral really convinced me since 2018 with his absurd consistency even overcoming his weaker period when he was losing vs Reynor and Clem.
I remain undecided.
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Shoulda known I'd open a can of worms by asking that question!
You can read my sig to know where my allegiance lies, but based on what I've seen over the years, Maru is ahead of Serral if he gets his 5th GSL. Serral has indeed been pretty impressive is an absolute force. He can beat the Koreans when he plays them in weekenders, but that's his strength. Maru's is in prep games. Almost two different situations.
Like has been stated before, since we can't come to agreeable criteria on which to "judge" them, it's all a moot point really.
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EPT
