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On May 21 2019 05:32 Starcloud wrote: Just another thread with same debate. Doesnt 99% here think that it goes this way, and we can stop it here, ok ? Below is my ranking. First is the bracket for Koreans and below it are foringers that can fit in that bracket (approx. of course). Occasionally, players can of course be higher or lower in those brackets, but general standing is something like this:
Korean top 1-4 Serral
Korean top 5-8 -
Korean top 9-14 Neeb
Korean top 15-20 Reynor Special Showtime Scarlett
Easy, right ?
I would move up some of them but overall this list is almost alright. Ninjanight's should be cut in half to mirror my opinion, instead.
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Northern Ireland20421 Posts
On May 21 2019 08:23 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 05:32 Starcloud wrote: Just another thread with same debate. Doesnt 99% here think that it goes this way, and we can stop it here, ok ? Below is my ranking. First is the bracket for Koreans and below it are foringers that can fit in that bracket (approx. of course). Occasionally, players can of course be higher or lower in those brackets, but general standing is something like this:
Korean top 1-4 Serral
Korean top 5-8 -
Korean top 9-14 Neeb
Korean top 15-20 Reynor Special Showtime Scarlett
Easy, right ? I would move up some of them but overall this list is almost alright. Ninjanight's should be cut in half to mirror my opinion, instead. I think it’s largely a good list, I consider it vaguely a bracketing where (matchups aside) it’s a 50/50 shot for either play in s series in those tiers.
What’s changed to me is there are a lot more foreigners I feel who I think can on their day straight up win a Bo3 series with a Korean, even if it’s just a singular series. Not luck out, but if they’re on their game they can legit win on any given day. I don’t fancy their chances in beating two in a row, but they can beat one. Which becomes pertinent in ‘any top Korean can win WCS like Serral’ discussions.
That’s in vaguely general play too, that’s not even counting people who are good matchup snipers.
Best Koreans are still the best, just how it is. Compared to previous eras where I’d say maybe foreigners had 5 or so of the top 50, I don’t think 15-20 of the top 50 is at at all reasonable nowadays.
Of that maybe only one foreigner is in the top 10, so GSL still has the edge on absolute quality, but gone are the days B/C tier Korean players stomped on foreigners.
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On May 21 2019 08:23 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 05:32 Starcloud wrote: Just another thread with same debate. Doesnt 99% here think that it goes this way, and we can stop it here, ok ? Below is my ranking. First is the bracket for Koreans and below it are foringers that can fit in that bracket (approx. of course). Occasionally, players can of course be higher or lower in those brackets, but general standing is something like this:
Korean top 1-4 Serral
Korean top 5-8 -
Korean top 9-14 Neeb
Korean top 15-20 Reynor Special Showtime Scarlett
Easy, right ? I would move up some of them but overall this list is almost alright. Ninjanight's should be cut in half to mirror my opinion, instead.
Curious what you disagree with? I think if you replaced Serral with anyone in my 1st list they'd at least make the semifinals and have at least decent chances to win the entire thing.
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I think the only Koreans who could easily achieve/surpass Serral-level domination in WCS are Stats, Maru, and Dark. Clasic, Rogue, TY, Gumiho could probably too but the chances are lower for them imo.
The 5 best foreigners (Serral, Neeb, Scarlett, Reynor, Special) can, at the very least, knock out any Korean, even the elite ones, on any given day. Neeb and Serral have proven they can go the whole distance with a deck stacked with the best Koreans.
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On May 21 2019 09:37 BerserkSword wrote: I think the only Koreans who could easily achieve/surpass Serral-level domination in WCS are Stats, Maru, and Dark. Clasic, Rogue, TY, Gumiho could probably too but the chances are lower for them imo.
The 5 best foreigners (Serral, Neeb, Scarlett, Reynor, Special) can, at the very least, knock out any Korean, even the elite ones, on any given day. Neeb and Serral have proven they can go the whole distance with a deck stacked with the best Koreans.
Not easily and I'm still not sure they would be able to but pretty much the ones you named(Inno surely has the skill but his power waxes and wanes too much to keep winning for that much time); Maru could, but would he avoid to choke in a weekender format? There are too many Zerg(and too many finals…) in WCS for Dark to dominate while Stats, despite being very consistent, showed us he is extremely vulnerable in his worst days.
I am obviously speaking of the four/five WCS championships streak, all the koreans you listed could win one or more.
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I would give any code S ro32 player favorable odds to reach WCS ro4, any of them, with the exclusion of Losira, True, MC and Hurricane. It really is Serral >>>>>>>>>>> reynor, neeb, special >> everyone else.
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On May 21 2019 10:40 IshinShishi wrote: I would give any code S ro32 player favorable odds to reach WCS ro4, any of them, with the exclusion of Losira, True, MC and Hurricane. It really is Serral >>>>>>>>>>> reynor, neeb, special >> everyone else.
I think lambo and showtime need to be in the conversation as well but anyway u slice it..the depth in Kr is what makes it insane. Thats the reason people (myself included) were losing their shit about Marus streak. All of the players are so good that they can actually knock any other player out on a given night with a few exceptions. Where as WCS has literal multi tier levels with giant gaps in them where its actually impossible for someone from the lower 3/4 to beat the top lvl players..so this is limiting the possibilities for elimination for the serrals and neebs by an enormous margin. Where as u stick those players in code S or even something much weaker like IEM or WESG and they will get to a point much earlier on in the tournament where if they dont play perfect they will absolutely be getting sent home early. I dont think people would say inno and soO are the top of Kr (definitely in the top tier) but they are examples of what Im talking about. Throw in that in actuality you arent really preparing for Terrans in WCS leaves 1 less matchup to practice for...vs going into Kr and being gtd to hit a god tier terran or 2 ..its just vastly different.
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Top 25 StarCraft 2 players statistically at the conclusion of WCS Spring (this is judging their full performance since BlizzCon)
Serral, Maru, INnoVation, Classic, Dark soO, Neeb, Stats, Reynor, Trap herO, Dear, SpeCial, Scarlett, GuMiho Bunny, Zest, Elazer, Solar, sOs, TY, Patience, Rogue, Lambo, TIME
Updated 2019 official map race to race win rate after Spring (GSL/WCS/IEM/WESG/HSC combined) - yes I’ve been counting whatever maps I can.
Zerg 50.38% over Terran (331-326) Zerg 50.72% over Protoss (389-378) Protoss vs Terran 50.0% (279-279)
185 Terran, 395 Zerg and 320 Protoss mirrors played 👀 #WCS #GSL
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Whoever doubted Serral because of the beginning of 2019 has to take something into consideration. First, one of the match he lost were against Innovation (3:4, WESG).
It was just after a big patch that nerfed queens, creep spread, and hydras dps. At the same time as giving terran more openings(bcs, speed banshee,etc) and changing cyclones again.
Obviously changes like that would affect someone that relies on solid play, and would need time to adjust. Lets also not forget Serral doesnt really get to practice versus Maru and Innovation level of terrans. His strongest terran oppositions on ladder are Uthermal and heromarine. And while those two are amazing, they are no Innovation or Maru.
Despite all that, it was still only a 3:4 loss.
Then there was the 3:4 loss against Reynor, but i think it was more Reynor playing out of his mind, and Serral getting back into the zone slowly after winning half a million dollars and having a couple months of holidays with family, and more money than he could dream of. When he got his revenge against Reynor this weekend, he really showed him who is boss. I have no doubt he can do the same versus Innovation next time.
Im going to trigger some folks here, but im still going to say it.
Serral IS the best player in the world, both in terms of skill level and potential. To demonstrate this level of consistency and dominance with Zerg is not something we have seen a lot in the history of Starcraft2. Only soO and Life have. Zerg is a very volatile race where there is many ways to lose games to stupid builds or little mistakes.
Time will prove me right I am pretty confident. His skill level is simply insane.
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On May 21 2019 05:32 Starcloud wrote: Just another thread with same debate. Doesnt 99% here think that it goes this way, and we can stop it here, ok ? Below is my ranking. First is the bracket for Koreans and below it are foringers that can fit in that bracket (approx. of course). Occasionally, players can of course be higher or lower in those brackets, but general standing is something like this:
Korean top 1-4 Serral
Korean top 5-8 -
Korean top 9-14 Neeb
Korean top 15-20 Reynor Special Showtime Scarlett
Easy, right ?
I like this list. Showtime seems to be back in form. The 2019 Showtime before WCS Spring doesn't belong here. Other good foreigners are too unstable to be here, but maybe could qualify for a Ro32 GSL on a good day (Heromarine, Lambo, Drogo, Elazer)
Edit: To the above poster: Pretty sure Serral plays regularly on KR ladder and has an account there with somewhere between 6k-7k MMR
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Northern Ireland20421 Posts
On May 21 2019 18:09 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 05:32 Starcloud wrote: Just another thread with same debate. Doesnt 99% here think that it goes this way, and we can stop it here, ok ? Below is my ranking. First is the bracket for Koreans and below it are foringers that can fit in that bracket (approx. of course). Occasionally, players can of course be higher or lower in those brackets, but general standing is something like this:
Korean top 1-4 Serral
Korean top 5-8 -
Korean top 9-14 Neeb
Korean top 15-20 Reynor Special Showtime Scarlett
Easy, right ? I like this list. Showtime seems to be back in form. The 2019 Showtime before WCS Spring doesn't belong here. Other good foreigners are too unstable to be here, but maybe could qualify for a Ro32 GSL on a good day (Heromarine, Lambo, Drogo, Elazer) Edit: To the above poster: Pretty sure Serral plays regularly on KR ladder and has an account there with somewhere between 6k-7k MMR True, good to see him back in form.
I really do think it’s a matter of on a good day too, but 10-15 foreigners could qualify for the GSL Ro32 IMO, at least l.
This really isn’t hyperbolic it’s watching the games of the worst players that scrape into it every season now, the reds usually a couple for whom Ro32 is clearly their ceiling on current shape, plus based on the foreigners who have qualified and where I’d place them on a top foreigner list.
It is cool that some of those players are returning legends and I hope they get into shape, so I’m not being critical of them as they do that.
It’s not just the usual suspects either, the foreign scene has a bunch of really talented players who are 17/18 and now have the WCS circuit to develop on further.
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On May 21 2019 21:30 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 18:09 Harris1st wrote:On May 21 2019 05:32 Starcloud wrote: Just another thread with same debate. Doesnt 99% here think that it goes this way, and we can stop it here, ok ? Below is my ranking. First is the bracket for Koreans and below it are foringers that can fit in that bracket (approx. of course). Occasionally, players can of course be higher or lower in those brackets, but general standing is something like this:
Korean top 1-4 Serral
Korean top 5-8 -
Korean top 9-14 Neeb
Korean top 15-20 Reynor Special Showtime Scarlett
Easy, right ? I like this list. Showtime seems to be back in form. The 2019 Showtime before WCS Spring doesn't belong here. Other good foreigners are too unstable to be here, but maybe could qualify for a Ro32 GSL on a good day (Heromarine, Lambo, Drogo, Elazer) Edit: To the above poster: Pretty sure Serral plays regularly on KR ladder and has an account there with somewhere between 6k-7k MMR True, good to see him back in form. I really do think it’s a matter of on a good day too, but 10-15 foreigners could qualify for the GSL Ro32 IMO, at least l. This really isn’t hyperbolic it’s watching the games of the worst players that scrape into it every season now, the reds usually a couple for whom Ro32 is clearly their ceiling on current shape, plus based on the foreigners who have qualified and where I’d place them on a top foreigner list. It is cool that some of those players are returning legends and I hope they get into shape, so I’m not being critical of them as they do that. It’s not just the usual suspects either, the foreign scene has a bunch of really talented players who are 17/18 and now have the WCS circuit to develop on further. I mean if Zanster could qualify for GSL Ro32 literally any decent foreigner could.
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On May 22 2019 01:49 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 21:30 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 21 2019 18:09 Harris1st wrote:On May 21 2019 05:32 Starcloud wrote: Just another thread with same debate. Doesnt 99% here think that it goes this way, and we can stop it here, ok ? Below is my ranking. First is the bracket for Koreans and below it are foringers that can fit in that bracket (approx. of course). Occasionally, players can of course be higher or lower in those brackets, but general standing is something like this:
Korean top 1-4 Serral
Korean top 5-8 -
Korean top 9-14 Neeb
Korean top 15-20 Reynor Special Showtime Scarlett
Easy, right ? I like this list. Showtime seems to be back in form. The 2019 Showtime before WCS Spring doesn't belong here. Other good foreigners are too unstable to be here, but maybe could qualify for a Ro32 GSL on a good day (Heromarine, Lambo, Drogo, Elazer) Edit: To the above poster: Pretty sure Serral plays regularly on KR ladder and has an account there with somewhere between 6k-7k MMR True, good to see him back in form. I really do think it’s a matter of on a good day too, but 10-15 foreigners could qualify for the GSL Ro32 IMO, at least l. This really isn’t hyperbolic it’s watching the games of the worst players that scrape into it every season now, the reds usually a couple for whom Ro32 is clearly their ceiling on current shape, plus based on the foreigners who have qualified and where I’d place them on a top foreigner list. It is cool that some of those players are returning legends and I hope they get into shape, so I’m not being critical of them as they do that. It’s not just the usual suspects either, the foreign scene has a bunch of really talented players who are 17/18 and now have the WCS circuit to develop on further. I mean if Zanster could qualify for GSL Ro32 literally any decent foreigner could.
It really is too bad what happened to the depth of the KR scene. Looking back in the Kespa era even Code A was crazy stacked.
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I agree with the notion that Serral is the best player. However, since we believe that, we also want to see him challenged. Who knows how long his run will last which is why I wish he would go play at least one GSL Code S while he’s in the form he is currently. Code S provides a level of competition that is unavailable in the rest of the world. We don’t want to debate, we want to see how good he TRULY is. 👀
PS: I was also disappointed that Neeb let himself get cheesed out against SpeCial in the semifinals because Neeb has been the one foreigner that has given him a tough time in series consistently other than Reynor. Maybe we’ll get that matchup one of these events. To be fair though... I don’t think anyone was stopping him Sunday. He was in Buzzsaw Mode. 😬
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On May 22 2019 01:49 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 21:30 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 21 2019 18:09 Harris1st wrote:On May 21 2019 05:32 Starcloud wrote: Just another thread with same debate. Doesnt 99% here think that it goes this way, and we can stop it here, ok ? Below is my ranking. First is the bracket for Koreans and below it are foringers that can fit in that bracket (approx. of course). Occasionally, players can of course be higher or lower in those brackets, but general standing is something like this:
Korean top 1-4 Serral
Korean top 5-8 -
Korean top 9-14 Neeb
Korean top 15-20 Reynor Special Showtime Scarlett
Easy, right ? I like this list. Showtime seems to be back in form. The 2019 Showtime before WCS Spring doesn't belong here. Other good foreigners are too unstable to be here, but maybe could qualify for a Ro32 GSL on a good day (Heromarine, Lambo, Drogo, Elazer) Edit: To the above poster: Pretty sure Serral plays regularly on KR ladder and has an account there with somewhere between 6k-7k MMR True, good to see him back in form. I really do think it’s a matter of on a good day too, but 10-15 foreigners could qualify for the GSL Ro32 IMO, at least l. This really isn’t hyperbolic it’s watching the games of the worst players that scrape into it every season now, the reds usually a couple for whom Ro32 is clearly their ceiling on current shape, plus based on the foreigners who have qualified and where I’d place them on a top foreigner list. It is cool that some of those players are returning legends and I hope they get into shape, so I’m not being critical of them as they do that. It’s not just the usual suspects either, the foreign scene has a bunch of really talented players who are 17/18 and now have the WCS circuit to develop on further. I mean if Zanster could qualify for GSL Ro32 literally any decent foreigner could. Zanster qualified once out of how many tries?
Also pretty wrong statement to make regardless - I would only put him behind Serral/Lambo/Elazer/Reynor EU - close with Namshar perhaps a bit better - and would be number 1 NA lmao (Scarlett being Kr). Any "decent" foreigner implies nominal skill for a foreigner - which is way below Zanster.
Qualifying for code S once is a great achievement for a good foreigner. Nobody is saying good foreigners would never qualify for code S - getting passed the gatekeepers though is very rare even for the better ones who have tried.
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On May 22 2019 09:24 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2019 01:49 Pandain wrote:On May 21 2019 21:30 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 21 2019 18:09 Harris1st wrote:On May 21 2019 05:32 Starcloud wrote: Just another thread with same debate. Doesnt 99% here think that it goes this way, and we can stop it here, ok ? Below is my ranking. First is the bracket for Koreans and below it are foringers that can fit in that bracket (approx. of course). Occasionally, players can of course be higher or lower in those brackets, but general standing is something like this:
Korean top 1-4 Serral
Korean top 5-8 -
Korean top 9-14 Neeb
Korean top 15-20 Reynor Special Showtime Scarlett
Easy, right ? I like this list. Showtime seems to be back in form. The 2019 Showtime before WCS Spring doesn't belong here. Other good foreigners are too unstable to be here, but maybe could qualify for a Ro32 GSL on a good day (Heromarine, Lambo, Drogo, Elazer) Edit: To the above poster: Pretty sure Serral plays regularly on KR ladder and has an account there with somewhere between 6k-7k MMR True, good to see him back in form. I really do think it’s a matter of on a good day too, but 10-15 foreigners could qualify for the GSL Ro32 IMO, at least l. This really isn’t hyperbolic it’s watching the games of the worst players that scrape into it every season now, the reds usually a couple for whom Ro32 is clearly their ceiling on current shape, plus based on the foreigners who have qualified and where I’d place them on a top foreigner list. It is cool that some of those players are returning legends and I hope they get into shape, so I’m not being critical of them as they do that. It’s not just the usual suspects either, the foreign scene has a bunch of really talented players who are 17/18 and now have the WCS circuit to develop on further. I mean if Zanster could qualify for GSL Ro32 literally any decent foreigner could. Zanster qualified once out of how many tries? Also pretty wrong statement to make regardless - I would only put him behind Serral/Lambo/Elazer/Reynor EU - close with Namshar perhaps a bit better - and would be number 1 NA lmao (Scarlett being Kr). Any "decent" foreigner implies nominal skill for a foreigner - which is way below Zanster. Qualifying for code S once is a great achievement for a good foreigner. Nobody is saying good foreigners would never qualify for code S - getting passed the gatekeepers though is very rare even for the better ones who have tried.
Your words would be so true if we were in 2015, now qualifying for Code S is easier and Zanster is weaker(at least if we compare him with his non korean fellows).
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Northern Ireland20421 Posts
On May 22 2019 09:24 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2019 01:49 Pandain wrote:On May 21 2019 21:30 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 21 2019 18:09 Harris1st wrote:On May 21 2019 05:32 Starcloud wrote: Just another thread with same debate. Doesnt 99% here think that it goes this way, and we can stop it here, ok ? Below is my ranking. First is the bracket for Koreans and below it are foringers that can fit in that bracket (approx. of course). Occasionally, players can of course be higher or lower in those brackets, but general standing is something like this:
Korean top 1-4 Serral
Korean top 5-8 -
Korean top 9-14 Neeb
Korean top 15-20 Reynor Special Showtime Scarlett
Easy, right ? I like this list. Showtime seems to be back in form. The 2019 Showtime before WCS Spring doesn't belong here. Other good foreigners are too unstable to be here, but maybe could qualify for a Ro32 GSL on a good day (Heromarine, Lambo, Drogo, Elazer) Edit: To the above poster: Pretty sure Serral plays regularly on KR ladder and has an account there with somewhere between 6k-7k MMR True, good to see him back in form. I really do think it’s a matter of on a good day too, but 10-15 foreigners could qualify for the GSL Ro32 IMO, at least l. This really isn’t hyperbolic it’s watching the games of the worst players that scrape into it every season now, the reds usually a couple for whom Ro32 is clearly their ceiling on current shape, plus based on the foreigners who have qualified and where I’d place them on a top foreigner list. It is cool that some of those players are returning legends and I hope they get into shape, so I’m not being critical of them as they do that. It’s not just the usual suspects either, the foreign scene has a bunch of really talented players who are 17/18 and now have the WCS circuit to develop on further. I mean if Zanster could qualify for GSL Ro32 literally any decent foreigner could. Zanster qualified once out of how many tries? Also pretty wrong statement to make regardless - I would only put him behind Serral/Lambo/Elazer/Reynor EU - close with Namshar perhaps a bit better - and would be number 1 NA lmao (Scarlett being Kr). Any "decent" foreigner implies nominal skill for a foreigner - which is way below Zanster. Qualifying for code S once is a great achievement for a good foreigner. Nobody is saying good foreigners would never qualify for code S - getting passed the gatekeepers though is very rare even for the better ones who have tried. I mean people have been saying that in this thread to be fair
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Disappointing finals..
I was gutted when Special beat Neeb in the first semis because I knew Serral would steamroll Special that hard... The only remaining question was : "Would Reynor stop Serral again ?"
His qualification kinda "ruined" the great Neeb vs Serral finals that would, imo, have been much more unpredictable. (Neeb is 14-11 against Serral, including 3-0 & 2-0 results the last times they met, but then again it's Serral, he's capable of winning against anyone)
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I think Serral would have won vs Neeb in any case. But not a clean sweep. More like 4:2 with some really close games
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