On February 09 2019 00:07 Zzoram wrote: Foreigners can not steal Korean money, the money is only there because of foreigners. GSL viewership is mostly foreigners and the biggest hype is for foreigner vs Korean games. A foreigner ban would most likely hurt viewership and put the future of GSL in danger.
2 to 3 GSL spots taken by foreigners is more than worth it to keep having GSL.
This is a bold statement, can you prove it?
Sadly fuzic doesn't show the korean numbers for gsl if i am looking at it correctly, so one would have to wait till tomorrow to compare the numbers live. We can still look at vod numbers though. Let's compare twitch vods and youtube vods with afreecatv vods and the numbers paint a fairly clear picture. I am not sure if the korean casting can be found on youtube anywhere, but comparing the afreecatv vods to twitch vods is fairly reasonable i think. If there are other korean vods (on naver ? idk) which would lead to a different pov let me know.
VODs? You use VODs when most foreign audience HAVE to watch VODs? C'mon
I wouldn't have used vods if i had a source for the live viewers, i already said that i didn't find them on fuzic for the korean stream. Again, just look at the live numbers tomorrow. In general vod numbers are a good indicator though, completely neglecting that seems unreasonable.
On February 07 2019 04:40 Charoisaur wrote: So koreans stealing foreign money is bad but foreigners stealing korean money is good? What's the difference between this region-lock and the WCS region-lock? That foreigners benefit from one and koreans benefit from the other but koreans aren't supposed to benefit from the system??
It sucks for the players but from a marketing point of view I can understand this decision. Foreigner in GSL will skyrocket viewernumbers for GSL but Koreans in WCS will not. I doubt many Koreans would watch WCS and most other ppl who would, watch it anyway. I don't have numbers to back this, just a guess.
This is a statement that I simply can not imagine an American ever making. It is pure conjecture and is... well to be honest it betrays your sub conscious bias that you think it's true. Maybe a Trump supporter would say this (feel obligated to call this out when I see it).
Scarlett is literally the most famous and popular foreigner in the history of Starcraft. That is why when she is in GSL, her group gets better views on average (assuming this even happens). If SortOf was in the GSL, do you think anyone would care? Why would I want to watch SortOf get rolled by Leenock and alive? You think that having Noregret in GSL skyrocketed viewer numbers?
No - no one cares. The only foreigner that boosts ratings is Scarlett because she is awesome. Everyone would prefer to see Bomber, MC, and partinG etc. than these foreigners that have never acheived anything in this game.
Now, you put any of the top 15 Koreans in WCS and the hype would be unreal. I know it's hard for you to imagine that many white people might not currently be watching the WCS (and instead only watch GSL), but it's true. Koreans aren't the only new viewers you would get from including Koreans in WCS.
On February 09 2019 00:07 Zzoram wrote: Foreigners can not steal Korean money, the money is only there because of foreigners. GSL viewership is mostly foreigners and the biggest hype is for foreigner vs Korean games. A foreigner ban would most likely hurt viewership and put the future of GSL in danger.
2 to 3 GSL spots taken by foreigners is more than worth it to keep having GSL.
This is a bold statement, can you prove it?
Sadly fuzic doesn't show the korean numbers for gsl if i am looking at it correctly, so one would have to wait till tomorrow to compare the numbers live. We can still look at vod numbers though. Let's compare twitch vods and youtube vods with afreecatv vods and the numbers paint a fairly clear picture. I am not sure if the korean casting can be found on youtube anywhere, but comparing the afreecatv vods to twitch vods is fairly reasonable i think. If there are other korean vods (on naver ? idk) which would lead to a different pov let me know.
VODs? You use VODs when most foreign audience HAVE to watch VODs? C'mon
I wouldn't have used vods if i had a source for the live viewers, i already said that i didn't find them on fuzic for the korean stream. Again, just look at the live numbers tomorrow. In general vod numbers are a good indicator though, completely neglecting that seems unreasonable.
VOD numbers are bad indicator if you are comparing a region who has the capability to watch live easily and regions who can't watch live easily. This isn't as easy as it sounds. If we had the numbers it would have been a different story but we don't have them, do we?
Edit>
On February 09 2019 02:36 Musicus wrote: People interested in the region lock stuff should watch the most recent pylon show. Artosis and Noregret are definitely most suited to talk about this. 1h35m15s if the timestamp doesn't work.
In one of the early episodes ARtosis have shown grudge and how he's still pissed off about WCS NA back then. I'm not gonna trust such person who just wants to see a revenge. NoRegret has money in foreigners in GSL. The only objective person I would listen to is OutOfControl.
On February 09 2019 00:07 Zzoram wrote: Foreigners can not steal Korean money, the money is only there because of foreigners. GSL viewership is mostly foreigners and the biggest hype is for foreigner vs Korean games. A foreigner ban would most likely hurt viewership and put the future of GSL in danger.
2 to 3 GSL spots taken by foreigners is more than worth it to keep having GSL.
This is a bold statement, can you prove it?
Sadly fuzic doesn't show the korean numbers for gsl if i am looking at it correctly, so one would have to wait till tomorrow to compare the numbers live. We can still look at vod numbers though. Let's compare twitch vods and youtube vods with afreecatv vods and the numbers paint a fairly clear picture. I am not sure if the korean casting can be found on youtube anywhere, but comparing the afreecatv vods to twitch vods is fairly reasonable i think. If there are other korean vods (on naver ? idk) which would lead to a different pov let me know.
VODs? You use VODs when most foreign audience HAVE to watch VODs? C'mon
I wouldn't have used vods if i had a source for the live viewers, i already said that i didn't find them on fuzic for the korean stream. Again, just look at the live numbers tomorrow. In general vod numbers are a good indicator though, completely neglecting that seems unreasonable.
VOD numbers are bad indicator if you are comparing a region who has the capability to watch live easily and regions who can't watch live easily. This isn't as easy as it sounds. If we had the numbers it would have been a different story but we don't have them, do we?
Well i disagree that the comparison is bad even when you make up for your argument (which is true ofc, there will be relatively more live viewers from korea). Guess someone has to look at the afreeca viewers tomorrow, if i am awake at the time i will do it myself
On February 07 2019 04:40 Charoisaur wrote: So koreans stealing foreign money is bad but foreigners stealing korean money is good? What's the difference between this region-lock and the WCS region-lock? That foreigners benefit from one and koreans benefit from the other but koreans aren't supposed to benefit from the system??
It sucks for the players but from a marketing point of view I can understand this decision. Foreigner in GSL will skyrocket viewernumbers for GSL but Koreans in WCS will not. I doubt many Koreans would watch WCS and most other ppl who would, watch it anyway. I don't have numbers to back this, just a guess.
This is a statement that I simply can not imagine an American ever making. It is pure conjecture and is... well to be honest it betrays your sub conscious bias that you think it's true. Maybe a Trump supporter would say this (feel obligated to call this out when I see it).
Scarlett is literally the most famous and popular foreigner in the history of Starcraft. That is why when she is in GSL, her group gets better views on average (assuming this even happens). If SortOf was in the GSL, do you think anyone would care? Why would I want to watch SortOf get rolled by Leenock and alive? You think that having Noregret in GSL skyrocketed viewer numbers?
No - no one cares. The only foreigner that boosts ratings is Scarlett because she is awesome. Everyone would prefer to see Bomber, MC, and partinG etc. than these foreigners that have never acheived anything in this game.
Now, you put any of the top 15 Koreans in WCS and the hype would be unreal. I know it's hard for you to imagine that many white people might not currently be watching the WCS (and instead only watch GSL), but it's true. Koreans aren't the only new viewers you would get from including Koreans in WCS.
Except its a pretty much universally accepted fact that Korean vs Foreigner are the highest viewed matches across the history of SC2, including the GSL, however viewership in all events dropped significantly during the "unregion-locked" period. So ya know, historical evidence gives credence to his opinion.
Not everything is "muh white man" and "orange man bad". Some things are just sad truths
On February 07 2019 04:40 Charoisaur wrote: So koreans stealing foreign money is bad but foreigners stealing korean money is good? What's the difference between this region-lock and the WCS region-lock? That foreigners benefit from one and koreans benefit from the other but koreans aren't supposed to benefit from the system??
It sucks for the players but from a marketing point of view I can understand this decision. Foreigner in GSL will skyrocket viewernumbers for GSL but Koreans in WCS will not. I doubt many Koreans would watch WCS and most other ppl who would, watch it anyway. I don't have numbers to back this, just a guess.
This is a statement that I simply can not imagine an American ever making. It is pure conjecture and is... well to be honest it betrays your sub conscious bias that you think it's true. Maybe a Trump supporter would say this (feel obligated to call this out when I see it).
Scarlett is literally the most famous and popular foreigner in the history of Starcraft. That is why when she is in GSL, her group gets better views on average (assuming this even happens). If SortOf was in the GSL, do you think anyone would care? Why would I want to watch SortOf get rolled by Leenock and alive? You think that having Noregret in GSL skyrocketed viewer numbers?
No - no one cares. The only foreigner that boosts ratings is Scarlett because she is awesome. Everyone would prefer to see Bomber, MC, and partinG etc. than these foreigners that have never acheived anything in this game.
Now, you put any of the top 15 Koreans in WCS and the hype would be unreal. I know it's hard for you to imagine that many white people might not currently be watching the WCS (and instead only watch GSL), but it's true. Koreans aren't the only new viewers you would get from including Koreans in WCS.
Dude did you freaking watch 2013-14 Starcraft? Our head was on the chopping block and Starcraft had its worst years in term of viewership
On February 07 2019 04:40 Charoisaur wrote: So koreans stealing foreign money is bad but foreigners stealing korean money is good? What's the difference between this region-lock and the WCS region-lock? That foreigners benefit from one and koreans benefit from the other but koreans aren't supposed to benefit from the system??
It sucks for the players but from a marketing point of view I can understand this decision. Foreigner in GSL will skyrocket viewernumbers for GSL but Koreans in WCS will not. I doubt many Koreans would watch WCS and most other ppl who would, watch it anyway. I don't have numbers to back this, just a guess.
This is a statement that I simply can not imagine an American ever making. It is pure conjecture and is... well to be honest it betrays your sub conscious bias that you think it's true. Maybe a Trump supporter would say this (feel obligated to call this out when I see it).
Scarlett is literally the most famous and popular foreigner in the history of Starcraft. That is why when she is in GSL, her group gets better views on average (assuming this even happens). If SortOf was in the GSL, do you think anyone would care? Why would I want to watch SortOf get rolled by Leenock and alive? You think that having Noregret in GSL skyrocketed viewer numbers?
No - no one cares. The only foreigner that boosts ratings is Scarlett because she is awesome. Everyone would prefer to see Bomber, MC, and partinG etc. than these foreigners that have never acheived anything in this game.
Now, you put any of the top 15 Koreans in WCS and the hype would be unreal. I know it's hard for you to imagine that many white people might not currently be watching the WCS (and instead only watch GSL), but it's true. Koreans aren't the only new viewers you would get from including Koreans in WCS.
Except its a pretty much universally accepted fact that Korean vs Foreigner are the highest viewed matches across the history of SC2, including the GSL, however viewership in all events dropped significantly during the "unregion-locked" period. So ya know, historical evidence gives credence to his opinion.
Not everything is "muh white man" and "orange man bad". Some things are just sad truths
universally accepted by whom? the most viewed Vod on youtube is the Maru vs Life finals. I didn't know one of them is a foreigner... Not everyone cares about this artifically created "foreigner vs korean" storyline and there's certainly no evidence that those matches get higher viewer numbers.
On February 07 2019 04:40 Charoisaur wrote: So koreans stealing foreign money is bad but foreigners stealing korean money is good? What's the difference between this region-lock and the WCS region-lock? That foreigners benefit from one and koreans benefit from the other but koreans aren't supposed to benefit from the system??
It sucks for the players but from a marketing point of view I can understand this decision. Foreigner in GSL will skyrocket viewernumbers for GSL but Koreans in WCS will not. I doubt many Koreans would watch WCS and most other ppl who would, watch it anyway. I don't have numbers to back this, just a guess.
This is a statement that I simply can not imagine an American ever making. It is pure conjecture and is... well to be honest it betrays your sub conscious bias that you think it's true. Maybe a Trump supporter would say this (feel obligated to call this out when I see it).
Scarlett is literally the most famous and popular foreigner in the history of Starcraft. That is why when she is in GSL, her group gets better views on average (assuming this even happens). If SortOf was in the GSL, do you think anyone would care? Why would I want to watch SortOf get rolled by Leenock and alive? You think that having Noregret in GSL skyrocketed viewer numbers?
No - no one cares. The only foreigner that boosts ratings is Scarlett because she is awesome. Everyone would prefer to see Bomber, MC, and partinG etc. than these foreigners that have never acheived anything in this game.
Now, you put any of the top 15 Koreans in WCS and the hype would be unreal. I know it's hard for you to imagine that many white people might not currently be watching the WCS (and instead only watch GSL), but it's true. Koreans aren't the only new viewers you would get from including Koreans in WCS.
Dude did you freaking watch 2013-14 Starcraft? Our head was on the chopping block and Starcraft had its worst years in term of viewership
Is that just how you perceived it, or can you present some links to evidence? StarCraft II was always planned as a 2 expansion piece, and LotV hadn't even come out then. I don't see how it would be 'on the chopping block' from Blizzard's point of view (WCS prize funding from blizzard stayed the same between 2013 and 2015). Maybe you could argue third parties started losing interest in 2014~2015, but 2013 was the biggest year of third party 'premiere' tier tournaments.
On February 09 2019 00:07 Zzoram wrote: Foreigners can not steal Korean money, the money is only there because of foreigners. GSL viewership is mostly foreigners and the biggest hype is for foreigner vs Korean games. A foreigner ban would most likely hurt viewership and put the future of GSL in danger.
2 to 3 GSL spots taken by foreigners is more than worth it to keep having GSL.
This is a bold statement, can you prove it?
Sadly fuzic doesn't show the korean numbers for gsl if i am looking at it correctly, so one would have to wait till tomorrow to compare the numbers live. We can still look at vod numbers though. Let's compare twitch vods and youtube vods with afreecatv vods and the numbers paint a fairly clear picture. I am not sure if the korean casting can be found on youtube anywhere, but comparing the afreecatv vods to twitch vods is fairly reasonable i think. If there are other korean vods (on naver ? idk) which would lead to a different pov let me know.
VODs? You use VODs when most foreign audience HAVE to watch VODs? C'mon
I wouldn't have used vods if i had a source for the live viewers, i already said that i didn't find them on fuzic for the korean stream. Again, just look at the live numbers tomorrow. In general vod numbers are a good indicator though, completely neglecting that seems unreasonable.
VOD numbers are bad indicator if you are comparing a region who has the capability to watch live easily and regions who can't watch live easily. This isn't as easy as it sounds. If we had the numbers it would have been a different story but we don't have them, do we?
It peaked a little over 2.4k so far while the english stream was at 10.5k already, add to that the disparity in vod numbers and the picture is fairly clear.
On February 07 2019 04:40 Charoisaur wrote: So koreans stealing foreign money is bad but foreigners stealing korean money is good? What's the difference between this region-lock and the WCS region-lock? That foreigners benefit from one and koreans benefit from the other but koreans aren't supposed to benefit from the system??
It sucks for the players but from a marketing point of view I can understand this decision. Foreigner in GSL will skyrocket viewernumbers for GSL but Koreans in WCS will not. I doubt many Koreans would watch WCS and most other ppl who would, watch it anyway. I don't have numbers to back this, just a guess.
This is a statement that I simply can not imagine an American ever making. It is pure conjecture and is... well to be honest it betrays your sub conscious bias that you think it's true. Maybe a Trump supporter would say this (feel obligated to call this out when I see it).
Scarlett is literally the most famous and popular foreigner in the history of Starcraft. That is why when she is in GSL, her group gets better views on average (assuming this even happens). If SortOf was in the GSL, do you think anyone would care? Why would I want to watch SortOf get rolled by Leenock and alive? You think that having Noregret in GSL skyrocketed viewer numbers?
No - no one cares. The only foreigner that boosts ratings is Scarlett because she is awesome. Everyone would prefer to see Bomber, MC, and partinG etc. than these foreigners that have never acheived anything in this game.
Now, you put any of the top 15 Koreans in WCS and the hype would be unreal. I know it's hard for you to imagine that many white people might not currently be watching the WCS (and instead only watch GSL), but it's true. Koreans aren't the only new viewers you would get from including Koreans in WCS.
Dude did you freaking watch 2013-14 Starcraft? Our head was on the chopping block and Starcraft had its worst years in term of viewership
Is that just how you perceived it, or can you present some links to evidence? StarCraft II was always planned as a 2 expansion piece, and LotV hadn't even come out then. I don't see how it would be 'on the chopping block' from Blizzard's point of view (WCS prize funding from blizzard stayed the same between 2013 and 2015). Maybe you could argue third parties started losing interest in 2014~2015, but 2013 was the biggest year of third party 'premiere' tier tournaments.
Well yes "choping block" isn't the good expression of course LOTV was always comming out, 2014-15 (not 13 your right) was the time when the dead game meme were at their apex, korean were winning everything we had bad viewership and tournament to almost empty crowd and we lost a bunch of tournament quite quickly. It's not to say that sc2 was about to die there but more thay it was clearly in a downward spiral and the WCS region lock is probably one of the thing that slowed this decline and even produce some growth. It hard to imagine SC2 still having a strong pro scene if it stayed the same as the HOTS era.
kick a foreigner out of GSL? it just select for WCS challenge or GSL. but foreigners chose WCS challenge instead GSL They still have opportunity for participate GSL but they doesn't it. but koreans have no chance to participate for WCS i think because of this esports can't be a sports
On February 09 2019 22:34 barcodeno1 wrote: kick a foreigner out of GSL? it just select for WCS challenge or GSL. but foreigners chose WCS challenge instead GSL They still have opportunity for participate GSL but they doesn't it. but koreans have no chance to participate for WCS i think because of this esports can't be a sports
It ain't a real sport when matches are predetermined. Lol at "seeding" in the entire sc2 scene whether it be amateur tournaments or. Nothing like trying to purposely make it so certain players are guaranteed to have the best chances of making it deep!
On February 09 2019 22:34 barcodeno1 wrote: kick a foreigner out of GSL? it just select for WCS challenge or GSL. but foreigners chose WCS challenge instead GSL They still have opportunity for participate GSL but they doesn't it. but koreans have no chance to participate for WCS i think because of this esports can't be a sports
It ain't a real sport when matches are predetermined. Lol at "seeding" in the entire sc2 scene whether it be amateur tournaments or. Nothing like trying to purposely make it so certain players are guaranteed to have the best chances of making it deep!
Seeding is a thing in many sports. Look at tennis. and even in football its not uncommon to have some seeding rules (amateurs vs pros in first rounds of cups for example).
On February 09 2019 22:34 barcodeno1 wrote: kick a foreigner out of GSL? it just select for WCS challenge or GSL. but foreigners chose WCS challenge instead GSL They still have opportunity for participate GSL but they doesn't it. but koreans have no chance to participate for WCS i think because of this esports can't be a sports
It ain't a real sport when matches are predetermined. Lol at "seeding" in the entire sc2 scene whether it be amateur tournaments or. Nothing like trying to purposely make it so certain players are guaranteed to have the best chances of making it deep!
On February 09 2019 22:34 barcodeno1 wrote: kick a foreigner out of GSL? it just select for WCS challenge or GSL. but foreigners chose WCS challenge instead GSL They still have opportunity for participate GSL but they doesn't it. but koreans have no chance to participate for WCS i think because of this esports can't be a sports
It ain't a real sport when matches are predetermined. Lol at "seeding" in the entire sc2 scene whether it be amateur tournaments or. Nothing like trying to purposely make it so certain players are guaranteed to have the best chances of making it deep!
"Real" sports use seeding too genius
then they are not "real" sports. He just defined that a real sport doesn't use seeding
poor scarlett needs to fight trouth open bracket instead of qualifing for first stop ... because of stupid rules ... well she should still be able to make it trough
On February 09 2019 22:34 barcodeno1 wrote: kick a foreigner out of GSL? it just select for WCS challenge or GSL. but foreigners chose WCS challenge instead GSL They still have opportunity for participate GSL but they doesn't it. but koreans have no chance to participate for WCS i think because of this esports can't be a sports
It ain't a real sport when matches are predetermined. Lol at "seeding" in the entire sc2 scene whether it be amateur tournaments or. Nothing like trying to purposely make it so certain players are guaranteed to have the best chances of making it deep!
so tennis isnt a real sport i guess ? or darts ? or ... (i can go on forever bro) seeding is bascily in every sport that is a multi player tournament structure especially if its 1 man teams
On February 07 2019 04:40 Charoisaur wrote: So koreans stealing foreign money is bad but foreigners stealing korean money is good? What's the difference between this region-lock and the WCS region-lock? That foreigners benefit from one and koreans benefit from the other but koreans aren't supposed to benefit from the system??
It sucks for the players but from a marketing point of view I can understand this decision. Foreigner in GSL will skyrocket viewernumbers for GSL but Koreans in WCS will not. I doubt many Koreans would watch WCS and most other ppl who would, watch it anyway. I don't have numbers to back this, just a guess.
This is a statement that I simply can not imagine an American ever making. It is pure conjecture and is... well to be honest it betrays your sub conscious bias that you think it's true. Maybe a Trump supporter would say this (feel obligated to call this out when I see it).
Scarlett is literally the most famous and popular foreigner in the history of Starcraft. That is why when she is in GSL, her group gets better views on average (assuming this even happens). If SortOf was in the GSL, do you think anyone would care? Why would I want to watch SortOf get rolled by Leenock and alive? You think that having Noregret in GSL skyrocketed viewer numbers?
No - no one cares. The only foreigner that boosts ratings is Scarlett because she is awesome. Everyone would prefer to see Bomber, MC, and partinG etc. than these foreigners that have never acheived anything in this game.
Now, you put any of the top 15 Koreans in WCS and the hype would be unreal. I know it's hard for you to imagine that many white people might not currently be watching the WCS (and instead only watch GSL), but it's true. Koreans aren't the only new viewers you would get from including Koreans in WCS.
User was temp banned for this post.
Wow that got really personal (and quite a bit racist) really fast and I'm not gonna dignify this with a response besides this.
One of the main WCS and Starcraft esports people, creative producer and senior esports manager Marc Olbertz was part of the mass lay offs yesterday at Activision Blizzard. Doesn't bode well for the future...
On February 14 2019 04:25 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: One of the main WCS and Starcraft esports people, creative producer and senior esports manager Marc Olbertz was part of the mass lay offs yesterday at Activision Blizzard. Doesn't bode well for the future...
Ouch, best of luck too him and everyone else. I think he was the "inside man" for a lot of the community people (like the pylon show guys), it's a big blow. I really hope we get through this year without any cancellation. I feel like this year will be the end for WCS-GSL, hard times ahead, but at least we got other like Take, Cheesadelphia and (someday) that chinese team league