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On November 22 2018 00:15 Freeborn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2018 23:48 Charoisaur wrote:On November 21 2018 23:40 Freeborn wrote: Oh yeah you guys totally not biased...
You realize that carriers are the most expenxive high tech units protoss can make? And you whine that they are not totally hardcountered by much lower tech mines and thors?
I juts ran some tests: 9 carriers vs 40 hydras, the hydras costing slightly less resources overall and zero attack/armor upgrade:
22 Hydras left, WITHOUT micro.
Another test: 9 carriers vs 82 marines, the marines ONLY MATCH THE MINERAL COST of the carriers, so overall probably worth half or less of carriers resources, no upgrades except for combat shield, no stim used:
62 marines survive.
So I would say the carrier is now officially dead. Terran can use tier 1 units with no micro or upgrades to counter protoss tier 3 unit and zerg can do it with pure tier 2 units (despite being just nerfed in attack).
They only way to use carrier effectively now is probably to use them with lots of meat shields and storm so that the interceptors dont get shot down while launching and then to pull back once too many are dead because they rebuild SOOOO SLOWLY.
At the same time BCs now became the ultimate super end game unit, they basically defeat anything now while being microed back, especially ground units are doomed against them, and of course they can teleport away when dying.
I think the interceptor cost needs to be reduced again or more likely, interceptor build time and launch speed buffed, otherwise carriers are probably most useful as support.
And this whole thread is a farce, you didnt even post resource costs or consider technological tiers. Carriers are basically countered by everything now, cost for cost and considering that they are the highest tier it's a disgrace. Wait... you're telling me a carrier mono-composition won't be viable and you have to combine them with other units!? What a tragedy I'm telling you that a tier 3 air unit mono-composition is beat by almost any other lower tier unit mono-composition that can hit air, value for value, without micro. Does that really make sense to you? Or is your bias tinting your sight too much? why would you mono-battle with carriers though? that's not a realistic scenario, in every scenario you have HTs and Archons below which makes it a completely different story. pure Thor also gets stomped by Lings/Zealots
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Czech Republic12115 Posts
On November 22 2018 03:26 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2018 00:15 Freeborn wrote:On November 21 2018 23:48 Charoisaur wrote:On November 21 2018 23:40 Freeborn wrote: Oh yeah you guys totally not biased...
You realize that carriers are the most expenxive high tech units protoss can make? And you whine that they are not totally hardcountered by much lower tech mines and thors?
I juts ran some tests: 9 carriers vs 40 hydras, the hydras costing slightly less resources overall and zero attack/armor upgrade:
22 Hydras left, WITHOUT micro.
Another test: 9 carriers vs 82 marines, the marines ONLY MATCH THE MINERAL COST of the carriers, so overall probably worth half or less of carriers resources, no upgrades except for combat shield, no stim used:
62 marines survive.
So I would say the carrier is now officially dead. Terran can use tier 1 units with no micro or upgrades to counter protoss tier 3 unit and zerg can do it with pure tier 2 units (despite being just nerfed in attack).
They only way to use carrier effectively now is probably to use them with lots of meat shields and storm so that the interceptors dont get shot down while launching and then to pull back once too many are dead because they rebuild SOOOO SLOWLY.
At the same time BCs now became the ultimate super end game unit, they basically defeat anything now while being microed back, especially ground units are doomed against them, and of course they can teleport away when dying.
I think the interceptor cost needs to be reduced again or more likely, interceptor build time and launch speed buffed, otherwise carriers are probably most useful as support.
And this whole thread is a farce, you didnt even post resource costs or consider technological tiers. Carriers are basically countered by everything now, cost for cost and considering that they are the highest tier it's a disgrace. Wait... you're telling me a carrier mono-composition won't be viable and you have to combine them with other units!? What a tragedy I'm telling you that a tier 3 air unit mono-composition is beat by almost any other lower tier unit mono-composition that can hit air, value for value, without micro. Does that really make sense to you? Or is your bias tinting your sight too much? why would you mono-battle with carriers though? that's not a realistic scenario, in every scenario you have HTs and Archons below which makes it a completely different story. pure Thor also gets stomped by Lings/Zealots While I don't agree with him and his analysis, it just shows how nonsense the original is
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On November 22 2018 03:26 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2018 00:15 Freeborn wrote:On November 21 2018 23:48 Charoisaur wrote:On November 21 2018 23:40 Freeborn wrote: Oh yeah you guys totally not biased...
You realize that carriers are the most expenxive high tech units protoss can make? And you whine that they are not totally hardcountered by much lower tech mines and thors?
I juts ran some tests: 9 carriers vs 40 hydras, the hydras costing slightly less resources overall and zero attack/armor upgrade:
22 Hydras left, WITHOUT micro.
Another test: 9 carriers vs 82 marines, the marines ONLY MATCH THE MINERAL COST of the carriers, so overall probably worth half or less of carriers resources, no upgrades except for combat shield, no stim used:
62 marines survive.
So I would say the carrier is now officially dead. Terran can use tier 1 units with no micro or upgrades to counter protoss tier 3 unit and zerg can do it with pure tier 2 units (despite being just nerfed in attack).
They only way to use carrier effectively now is probably to use them with lots of meat shields and storm so that the interceptors dont get shot down while launching and then to pull back once too many are dead because they rebuild SOOOO SLOWLY.
At the same time BCs now became the ultimate super end game unit, they basically defeat anything now while being microed back, especially ground units are doomed against them, and of course they can teleport away when dying.
I think the interceptor cost needs to be reduced again or more likely, interceptor build time and launch speed buffed, otherwise carriers are probably most useful as support.
And this whole thread is a farce, you didnt even post resource costs or consider technological tiers. Carriers are basically countered by everything now, cost for cost and considering that they are the highest tier it's a disgrace. Wait... you're telling me a carrier mono-composition won't be viable and you have to combine them with other units!? What a tragedy I'm telling you that a tier 3 air unit mono-composition is beat by almost any other lower tier unit mono-composition that can hit air, value for value, without micro. Does that really make sense to you? Or is your bias tinting your sight too much? why would you mono-battle with carriers though? that's not a realistic scenario, in every scenario you have HTs and Archons below which makes it a completely different story. pure Thor also gets stomped by Lings/Zealots Couldn't the same be said about pretty much every argument the OP has made too in that case? Since when does mass 3/3 thor versus mass 3/3/3 carrier without any other units ever even happen in a real game?
Not to mention that OP has consistently, in this thread and in the past, never bothered to factor in Gravitron Catapult when looking at the old carriers, which is about as useful as arguing about Bio compositions while ignoring Stim as a factor. The reason they shortened the launch time for interceptors was to make up for Gravitron Catapult being removed, so of course the new carriers should do slightly better in some fights than the old carriers without Gravitron Catapult. That was literally the whole point of the carrier change. Blizzard said they wanted to stop carriers from being able to do 4 interceptors worth of damage in a quarter of a second but admitted without Gravitron, interceptors launched a little to slowly so the upped the launch speed a bit to make carriers slightly better in that regard.
People seem irritated at the OP because the OP has been rehashing this same issue for quite literally months now and has had at least one thread about it locked. Multiple people have put out detailed explanations on why the OP's logic and methodology is wrong but this person continues to ignore everyone else and bring the topic up every couple weeks using the same flawed math and methodology.
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On November 22 2018 04:03 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2018 03:26 Charoisaur wrote:On November 22 2018 00:15 Freeborn wrote:On November 21 2018 23:48 Charoisaur wrote:On November 21 2018 23:40 Freeborn wrote: Oh yeah you guys totally not biased...
You realize that carriers are the most expenxive high tech units protoss can make? And you whine that they are not totally hardcountered by much lower tech mines and thors?
I juts ran some tests: 9 carriers vs 40 hydras, the hydras costing slightly less resources overall and zero attack/armor upgrade:
22 Hydras left, WITHOUT micro.
Another test: 9 carriers vs 82 marines, the marines ONLY MATCH THE MINERAL COST of the carriers, so overall probably worth half or less of carriers resources, no upgrades except for combat shield, no stim used:
62 marines survive.
So I would say the carrier is now officially dead. Terran can use tier 1 units with no micro or upgrades to counter protoss tier 3 unit and zerg can do it with pure tier 2 units (despite being just nerfed in attack).
They only way to use carrier effectively now is probably to use them with lots of meat shields and storm so that the interceptors dont get shot down while launching and then to pull back once too many are dead because they rebuild SOOOO SLOWLY.
At the same time BCs now became the ultimate super end game unit, they basically defeat anything now while being microed back, especially ground units are doomed against them, and of course they can teleport away when dying.
I think the interceptor cost needs to be reduced again or more likely, interceptor build time and launch speed buffed, otherwise carriers are probably most useful as support.
And this whole thread is a farce, you didnt even post resource costs or consider technological tiers. Carriers are basically countered by everything now, cost for cost and considering that they are the highest tier it's a disgrace. Wait... you're telling me a carrier mono-composition won't be viable and you have to combine them with other units!? What a tragedy I'm telling you that a tier 3 air unit mono-composition is beat by almost any other lower tier unit mono-composition that can hit air, value for value, without micro. Does that really make sense to you? Or is your bias tinting your sight too much? why would you mono-battle with carriers though? that's not a realistic scenario, in every scenario you have HTs and Archons below which makes it a completely different story. pure Thor also gets stomped by Lings/Zealots While I don't agree with him and his analysis, it just shows how nonsense the original is
Gotta agree, this 'me and my friend tested some unit interactions' lacks substance. Would've been best to make a short comparison video instead and elaborate on that.
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very ironic how people suggest "just get hts". yeah, can't wait for every unit in the game to kite back and kill my intercepters while HTS try to inch up and storm and only end up storming their own intercepters, and then dying to lurkers, broodlords, tanks, liberators, ect.
we've already have seen recently how dangerous zerg is in the late game, good zergs like rogue and serral crush skytoss without breaking a sweat. now feedback is even nerfed hard so we won't be able to control vipers
protoss late game just got a lot weirder because of the weird tempest. It's better than make carriers lol.
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