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Serral got an invite to WESG proper and he gets to skip the qualifiers.
This seems to be in exchange of Serral using his social media account(twitter) and his stream to advertise the tournament.
Does this rub anyone else the wrong way? I know invitational tournaments are common, but in this case WESG being mostly a competitive tournament, selling a spot for advertisement seems shitty to me.
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In 2016 there were 24 players in WESG playoffs, in 2017 there were 30. Now for 2018 there are 48 players who get to play in the final event, and 4 of those spots are invites. So they've increased the number of players each year, and this year they added in 4 invite spot (on top of the 14 extra from qualifiers).
Why would this be a bad thing? And let's be real, who would you rather see get one of those invite-spots? I'm all for it, go Serral!
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I wonder how Serral would do in the Finland qualifier.. tough bracket?
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On November 17 2018 09:42 Lillyngve wrote: In 2016 there were 24 players in WESG playoffs, in 2017 there were 30. Now for 2018 there are 48 players who get to play in the final event, and 4 of those spots are invites. So they've increased the number of players each year, and this year they added in 4 invite spot (on top of the 14 extra from qualifiers).
Why would this be a bad thing? And let's be real, who would you rather see get one of those invite-spots? I'm all for it, go Serral! I'd prefer there to be no invites at all. And in case there were I'd prefer those weren't sold. Just having everyone be chosen with qualifiers would be better in my opinion.
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On November 17 2018 09:22 11cc wrote: Serral got an invite to WESG proper and he gets to skip the qualifiers.
This seems to be in exchange of Serral using his social media account(twitter) and his stream to advertise the tournament.
Does this rub anyone else the wrong way? I know invitational tournaments are common, but in this case WESG being mostly a competitive tournament, selling a spot for advertisement seems shitty to me.
Doesn't rub me the wrong way at all. Serral is fresh off of his Blizzcon win so he should pull some great exposure for the tournament. They are also inviting the Blizzcon champion, not some random scrub so there's nothing wrong with that. Think of it as Serral getting a seed from winning everything this year.
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Don't really care, as the World Champ should get an invite anyway
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Since it's Serral and there are 4 invites anyway, I don't care.
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A lot of people cry when sOs beat Maru fair and square and they didn't get to see Maru vs Serral in WCS.
Now WESG gives us what we all want to see and invites Maru and Serral directly to the main event, why would you be annoyed by it? And it's not like Serral would have any trouble getting through the qualifers.
As for the advertisement, its only purpose is to call for more people to join/watch the tournament, what is bad about letting more people know about another SC2 event?
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Scandinavian/nordic got only 1 spot anyways so im fine with Serral getting invite
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On November 17 2018 10:33 yht9657 wrote: A lot of people cry when sOs beat Maru fair and square and they didn't get to see Maru vs Serral in WCS.
Now WESG gives us what we all want to see and invites Maru and Serral directly to the main event, why would you be annoyed by it? And it's not like Serral would have any trouble getting through the qualifers. I want to see Serral and Maru play against each other because I consider them to be the best players, but not artificially. I don't want brackets to be rigged or free wins to be awarded or any nonsense like that for the ideal match up to happen, and that would include invites to a mostly competitive tournament.
As for the advertisement, its only purpose is to call for more people to join/watch the tournament, what is bad about letting more people know about another SC2 event? Nothing bad about the goal, just the method.
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On November 17 2018 10:47 11cc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2018 10:33 yht9657 wrote: A lot of people cry when sOs beat Maru fair and square and they didn't get to see Maru vs Serral in WCS.
Now WESG gives us what we all want to see and invites Maru and Serral directly to the main event, why would you be annoyed by it? And it's not like Serral would have any trouble getting through the qualifers. I want to see Serral and Maru play against each other because I consider them to be the best players, but not artificially. I don't want brackets to be rigged or free wins to be awarded or any nonsense like that for the ideal match up to happen, and that would include invites to a mostly competitive tournament. Show nested quote +As for the advertisement, its only purpose is to call for more people to join/watch the tournament, what is bad about letting more people know about another SC2 event? Nothing bad about the goal, just the method.
they are the tournament organizers ... so they can do what they want. if the community doesn't like it then they will show it. but, from the responses, i think you pretty much get everyone's point of view.
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On November 17 2018 10:47 11cc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2018 10:33 yht9657 wrote: A lot of people cry when sOs beat Maru fair and square and they didn't get to see Maru vs Serral in WCS.
Now WESG gives us what we all want to see and invites Maru and Serral directly to the main event, why would you be annoyed by it? And it's not like Serral would have any trouble getting through the qualifers. I want to see Serral and Maru play against each other because I consider them to be the best players, but not artificially. I don't want brackets to be rigged or free wins to be awarded or any nonsense like that for the ideal match up to happen, and that would include invites to a mostly competitive tournament. Show nested quote +As for the advertisement, its only purpose is to call for more people to join/watch the tournament, what is bad about letting more people know about another SC2 event? Nothing bad about the goal, just the method. I'm afarid you're expecting too much "fairness" from a tournament that gives Korea 2 out of 48 spots in the global finals. This is not a WCS event, it's the result of Chinese e-commerce capital flowing into esports market, so I'm already glad they actually know what players viewers would like to see most.
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On November 17 2018 10:08 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2018 09:22 11cc wrote: Serral got an invite to WESG proper and he gets to skip the qualifiers.
This seems to be in exchange of Serral using his social media account(twitter) and his stream to advertise the tournament.
Does this rub anyone else the wrong way? I know invitational tournaments are common, but in this case WESG being mostly a competitive tournament, selling a spot for advertisement seems shitty to me. Doesn't rub me the wrong way at all. Serral is fresh off of his Blizzcon win so he should pull some great exposure for the tournament. They are also inviting the Blizzcon champion, not some random scrub so there's nothing wrong with that. Think of it as Serral getting a seed from winning everything this year. But he didn't win everything. For instance he got 3-0'd by Maru at the last WESG.
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Yeah normally I would agree with you, but I think the fact that he's the Blizzcon 2018 Champ makes it okay. Who doesn't want the champ there, regardless of who he was? If it was any korean who had won I think everyone would think it's okay (and I think 98% of people think it's already okay)
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United States32432 Posts
I think this would have bothered me more a long time ago, but I've grown more and more cynical and accepting about the fact that sports is more entertainment than competition (it only has to be competitive enough to keep the majority of fans happy).
However, I do think the "BlizzCon champ should get a seed" line of thinking really misses the point, because it's the PRINCIPLE of the act (giving star players any kind of preferential treatment in exchange for promotion) that's interesting here, not the specifics of this particular case. I imagine there's some line to be crossed that most fans would find distasteful. For instance, what would people think if WESG offered a seed to a player who's not as universally revered like Serral, but has a similar amount of reach/popularity? Hypothetically, what if they had given TIME—a far lesser player than Serral but probably the most known in the Chinese market—the same offer?
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On November 17 2018 09:42 Lillyngve wrote: In 2016 there were 24 players in WESG playoffs, in 2017 there were 30. Now for 2018 there are 48 players who get to play in the final event, and 4 of those spots are invites. So they've increased the number of players each year, and this year they added in 4 invite spot (on top of the 14 extra from qualifiers).
Why would this be a bad thing? And let's be real, who would you rather see get one of those invite-spots? I'm all for it, go Serral! if u take in mind there is less prize pool. 0 regional prize pool anymore except some countrys more competition and less money. yes having invites is bad
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Yeah, I don't really disagree with the goal, with having players promote the event, but I dislike the method. Selling a tournament spot rubs me the wrong way, especially when the prize pool is much lower. It feels gross to me. Ditto on the "since it's Serral I don't mind/care" side too, if it were anyone else I think people would think about it more and a lot of people would be upset in all sorts of ways.
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On November 17 2018 11:53 blunderfulguy wrote: Yeah, I don't really disagree with the goal, with having players promote the event, but I dislike the method. Selling a tournament spot rubs me the wrong way, especially when the prize pool is much lower. It feels gross to me. Ditto on the "since it's Serral I don't mind/care" side too, if it were anyone else I think people would think about it more and a lot of people would be upset in all sorts of ways. well there are 3 more invites so we'll see how people react to it. Serral would've qualified anyway so I don't see anything wrong with it
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It is WESG. Who cares? Thank god for the money. Otherwise, no one even knows that event exists.
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On November 17 2018 12:01 Vutalisk wrote: It is WESG. Who cares? Thank god for the money. Otherwise, no one even knows that event exists. that's true for every event tbh
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On November 17 2018 11:18 Waxangel wrote: I think this would have bothered me more a long time ago, but I've grown more and more cynical and accepting about the fact that sports is more entertainment than competition (it only has to be competitive enough to keep the majority of fans happy).
However, I do think the "BlizzCon champ should get a seed" line of thinking really misses the point, because it's the PRINCIPLE of the act (giving star players any kind of preferential treatment in exchange for promotion) that's interesting here, not the specifics of this particular case. I imagine there's some line to be crossed that most fans would find distasteful. For instance, what would people think if WESG offered a seed to a player who's not as universally revered like Serral, but has a similar amount of reach/popularity? Hypothetically, what if they had given TIME—a far lesser player than Serral but probably the most known in the Chinese market—the same offer?
Personally I think invites are up to the entire discretion of the organization. That's why they are "invites" and not "merit based ranking system/qualification" The blizzcono just makes it easier to justify.
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I think it makes sense for him to just get an invite. Save the qualifiers for other players to fight thru. Serral would've just beaten them all anyways lol
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On November 17 2018 10:47 11cc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2018 10:33 yht9657 wrote: A lot of people cry when sOs beat Maru fair and square and they didn't get to see Maru vs Serral in WCS.
Now WESG gives us what we all want to see and invites Maru and Serral directly to the main event, why would you be annoyed by it? And it's not like Serral would have any trouble getting through the qualifers. I want to see Serral and Maru play against each other because I consider them to be the best players, but not artificially. I don't want brackets to be rigged or free wins to be awarded or any nonsense like that for the ideal match up to happen, and that would include invites to a mostly competitive tournament. ...
Free wins are a given at WESG. Have you taken a look through the regional qualifiers for the event? Serbia and Mongolia have each their own qualifier for the main event... I am willing to bet that whatever players qualify in those will not stand any chance at the tournament... For Mongolia it is looking like the only player that signed up for the first qualifier may get a ticket to the grand finals by default if noone else signs up for the second qualifier... Besides those, WESG has a bunch of other regional qualifiers that seem to produce players that will simply get stomped during the main event. I'd say Serral getting an invite to the main event is effectively just giving the Scandinavian qualifier a second spot for WESG, which I am perfectly fine with since it looks like the first round of WESG will be just a whole lot of one-sided stomps...
edit: there is even a Macau only qualifier X_X
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if he were trying to sell us coca cola and sneakers for a free invite it would seem kind of scummy, but he's just promoting more starcraft, so how is this bad?
feels like we're reaching too hard for a juicy negative take on serral. ooooh controversy. let's not bite our own heads off in this small niche community complaining about things like "legendary player gets invited to a tournament and also promotes it," because if you drop the charade that's all this is
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Not having Serral go through the qualifier creates a more fair playing field for the rest of the players. I mean if the deal was "hey you can get a spot, but only if you work for us as an advertiser, if you dont want that, go thru it like the rest of them peasants" -then yeah, that s bad. If it was like, Hey, we have 4 invite spots, obviously you would be one of those, so you dont have to do qualifiers, but would you be okay with promoting the event on your stream/social media, so we dont lose the "serral hype" for our qualifier process? and then he said, sure?
Could someone link the announcement / article/ whatever, so we dont just speculate and blindly judge the organizers for something they might not have done?
Also, inviting top 4 seeds is absolutely common practice, and always has been. Not every tourney does it, sure, you can say you like those who dont, but let s not get carried away
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The liquipedia page isn't updaed with the invites. You say Serral and Maru got two of them. Did Dark and Classic get the other two? If so, then the top 4 of last year got invites. That is like the GSL has been doing for years, the top gets seeded into the next event.
The other thing, promoting the tournament, is just a conditional invite. It's an 'if you want to get a free pass to this commercial event, advertise the event'. Sports is an entertainment business. This event gets its money comes from investments, not the product. The investors want to be seen to get their money's worth, and the event has to be seen to continue.
This all seems reasonable to me. I only hope for the event to be more accessible. I don't know when the qualifiers are, what the basis for invites are, when the main tournament is. The official website says "For the new WESG season, world top teams and players will be invited to the WESG Grand Final." That does not really explain what constitutes a top player. I also found dates for qualifiers, but not at which hour.
edit: Geo.Rion posted while I wrote my post.We have similar contents. Sorry for the semi-double post.
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On November 17 2018 16:02 Drfilip wrote:The liquipedia page isn't updaed with the invites. You say Serral and Maru got two of them. Did Dark and Classic get the other two? If so, then the top 4 of last year got invites. That is like the GSL has been doing for years, the top gets seeded into the next event. The other thing, promoting the tournament, is just a conditional invite. It's an 'if you want to get a free pass to this commercial event, advertise the event'. Sports is an entertainment business. This event gets its money comes from investments, not the product. The investors want to be seen to get their money's worth, and the event has to be seen to continue. This all seems reasonable to me. I only hope for the event to be more accessible. I don't know when the qualifiers are, what the basis for invites are, when the main tournament is. The official website says "For the new WESG season, world top teams and players will be invited to the WESG Grand Final." That does not really explain what constitutes a top player. I also found dates for qualifiers, but not at which hour. edit: Geo.Rion posted while I wrote my post.We have similar contents. Sorry for the semi-double post. From what I've heard one of the other two will be iAsonu, Chinese Zerg player.
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It really feel like people are bitching over nothing. Serral is the foreigner GOAT, has won nearly everything this year and is with Maru the most desserving player for an invite; and there is four invites. Also the counterpart isn't even to promote Alibaba or whatever product, but to advertise the tournament itself, starcraft II itself. It was win/win situation. Even scandinavian player can now breath easier knowing that they will have a chance to qualify, which would have been denied if Serral was to play in the qualifier.
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On November 17 2018 16:02 Drfilip wrote:The liquipedia page isn't updaed with the invites. You say Serral and Maru got two of them. Did Dark and Classic get the other two? If so, then the top 4 of last year got invites. That is like the GSL has been doing for years, the top gets seeded into the next event. The other thing, promoting the tournament, is just a conditional invite. It's an 'if you want to get a free pass to this commercial event, advertise the event'. Sports is an entertainment business. This event gets its money comes from investments, not the product. The investors want to be seen to get their money's worth, and the event has to be seen to continue. This all seems reasonable to me. I only hope for the event to be more accessible. I don't know when the qualifiers are, what the basis for invites are, when the main tournament is. The official website says "For the new WESG season, world top teams and players will be invited to the WESG Grand Final." That does not really explain what constitutes a top player. I also found dates for qualifiers, but not at which hour. edit: Geo.Rion posted while I wrote my post.We have similar contents. Sorry for the semi-double post. Dark played in the qualifier (and won it) so apparently he didn't get a seed.
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INno is literraly clueless against zerg :/ will there be a new korean qualifier?
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On November 17 2018 11:18 Waxangel wrote: I think this would have bothered me more a long time ago, but I've grown more and more cynical and accepting about the fact that sports is more entertainment than competition (it only has to be competitive enough to keep the majority of fans happy).
However, I do think the "BlizzCon champ should get a seed" line of thinking really misses the point, because it's the PRINCIPLE of the act (giving star players any kind of preferential treatment in exchange for promotion) that's interesting here, not the specifics of this particular case. I imagine there's some line to be crossed that most fans would find distasteful. For instance, what would people think if WESG offered a seed to a player who's not as universally revered like Serral, but has a similar amount of reach/popularity? Hypothetically, what if they had given TIME—a far lesser player than Serral but probably the most known in the Chinese market—the same offer?
I think this is pretty much spot on. It is a shame to do things this way, and I am actually pretty convinced that the core of what makes Starcraft interesting is slowly hollowed out by stuff like this.
As for who deserves the invites based on their competetive merits, there is no doubt that Serral is one of the four. The other three should go to Maru and two other Koreans. This would help balance out the (competitively speaking) extremely skewed qualification system they have chosen for WESG. It's is so weird that they have chosen to pretend that elite-level SC2 is truly global, just so it can fit with their other games. Why would you not want to have the best players at your tournament?
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On November 17 2018 19:34 sneakyfox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2018 11:18 Waxangel wrote: I think this would have bothered me more a long time ago, but I've grown more and more cynical and accepting about the fact that sports is more entertainment than competition (it only has to be competitive enough to keep the majority of fans happy).
However, I do think the "BlizzCon champ should get a seed" line of thinking really misses the point, because it's the PRINCIPLE of the act (giving star players any kind of preferential treatment in exchange for promotion) that's interesting here, not the specifics of this particular case. I imagine there's some line to be crossed that most fans would find distasteful. For instance, what would people think if WESG offered a seed to a player who's not as universally revered like Serral, but has a similar amount of reach/popularity? Hypothetically, what if they had given TIME—a far lesser player than Serral but probably the most known in the Chinese market—the same offer? I think this is pretty much spot on. It is a shame to do things this way, and I am actually pretty convinced that the core of what makes Starcraft interesting is slowly hollowed out by stuff like this. As for who deserves the invites based on their competetive merits, there is no doubt that Serral is one of the four. The other three should go to Maru and two other Koreans. This would help balance out the (competitively speaking) extremely skewed qualification system they have chosen for WESG. It's is so weird that they have chosen to pretend that elite-level SC2 is truly global, just so it can fit with their other games. Why would you not want to have the best players at your tournament? to give players from other regions a shot? You know - the reason behind region-locking.
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I'm sorry, but you are quarrel among themselves (again). Day by day. Like, what is that? Some help or is this some type of a cure?
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Italy2573 Posts
it's 4 invites on 48 total players (so less than 10%) and it's kinda obvious that an organization that organizes a 250k tournament wthout being at the core of the sc2 wants those invites spent on the top players around... they took the standings and invited the top player of each.. I don't really get what's bad in this since it's a "private funded tournament" and it is not WCS points related... personally I don't think they did that in exchange for Serral's tweets (did he make them btw?) tbh, why would they? in soccer, iirc, the host nation of the WC goes directly to the final stage and that's way more "bad" than for a sponsor/organizer to chose themselves the 7/8% of the participants of their 250k "we have qualifiers for literally everyone" tournament imo...
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i don't care as there's no finnish player who can win a map in a bo17 against him.
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On November 17 2018 20:08 CynicalDeath wrote: it's 4 invites on 48 total players (so less than 10%) and it's kinda obvious that an organization that organizes a 250k tournament wthout being at the core of the sc2 wants those invites spent on the top players around... they took the standings and invited the top player of each.. I don't really get what's bad in this since it's a "private funded tournament" and it is not WCS points related... personally I don't think they did that in exchange for Serral's tweets (did he make them btw?) tbh, why would they? in soccer, iirc, the host nation of the WC goes directly to the final stage and that's way more "bad" than for a sponsor/organizer to chose themselves the 7/8% of the participants of their 250k "we have qualifiers for literally everyone" tournament imo... The only confusing thing is that Dark apparently didn't get a seed despite placing higher in the last WESG than Serral. In this case I don't think this is a problem because Serral would've qualified anyway and it gives another skandinavian player a shot to qualify. But in general I think a tournament which values competitive integrity shouldn't send out invites for specific players for no apparent reason other than "it raises interest for the tournament" or something similar.
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On November 17 2018 19:45 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2018 19:34 sneakyfox wrote:On November 17 2018 11:18 Waxangel wrote: I think this would have bothered me more a long time ago, but I've grown more and more cynical and accepting about the fact that sports is more entertainment than competition (it only has to be competitive enough to keep the majority of fans happy).
However, I do think the "BlizzCon champ should get a seed" line of thinking really misses the point, because it's the PRINCIPLE of the act (giving star players any kind of preferential treatment in exchange for promotion) that's interesting here, not the specifics of this particular case. I imagine there's some line to be crossed that most fans would find distasteful. For instance, what would people think if WESG offered a seed to a player who's not as universally revered like Serral, but has a similar amount of reach/popularity? Hypothetically, what if they had given TIME—a far lesser player than Serral but probably the most known in the Chinese market—the same offer? I think this is pretty much spot on. It is a shame to do things this way, and I am actually pretty convinced that the core of what makes Starcraft interesting is slowly hollowed out by stuff like this. As for who deserves the invites based on their competetive merits, there is no doubt that Serral is one of the four. The other three should go to Maru and two other Koreans. This would help balance out the (competitively speaking) extremely skewed qualification system they have chosen for WESG. It's is so weird that they have chosen to pretend that elite-level SC2 is truly global, just so it can fit with their other games. Why would you not want to have the best players at your tournament? to give players from other regions a shot? You know - the reason behind region-locking.
This is much more than Blizzards region lock. I think they do it because they want the same structure across their various games. Perhaps to give it an air of 'esports olympics' with a big variety in national representation.
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On November 17 2018 20:58 sneakyfox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2018 19:45 Charoisaur wrote:On November 17 2018 19:34 sneakyfox wrote:On November 17 2018 11:18 Waxangel wrote: I think this would have bothered me more a long time ago, but I've grown more and more cynical and accepting about the fact that sports is more entertainment than competition (it only has to be competitive enough to keep the majority of fans happy).
However, I do think the "BlizzCon champ should get a seed" line of thinking really misses the point, because it's the PRINCIPLE of the act (giving star players any kind of preferential treatment in exchange for promotion) that's interesting here, not the specifics of this particular case. I imagine there's some line to be crossed that most fans would find distasteful. For instance, what would people think if WESG offered a seed to a player who's not as universally revered like Serral, but has a similar amount of reach/popularity? Hypothetically, what if they had given TIME—a far lesser player than Serral but probably the most known in the Chinese market—the same offer? I think this is pretty much spot on. It is a shame to do things this way, and I am actually pretty convinced that the core of what makes Starcraft interesting is slowly hollowed out by stuff like this. As for who deserves the invites based on their competetive merits, there is no doubt that Serral is one of the four. The other three should go to Maru and two other Koreans. This would help balance out the (competitively speaking) extremely skewed qualification system they have chosen for WESG. It's is so weird that they have chosen to pretend that elite-level SC2 is truly global, just so it can fit with their other games. Why would you not want to have the best players at your tournament? to give players from other regions a shot? You know - the reason behind region-locking. This is much more than Blizzards region lock. I think they do it because they want the same structure across their various games. Perhaps to give it an air of 'esports olympics' with a big variety in national representation. of course it's much more than Blizzard's region lock but the idea behind it is the same. Blizzard doesn't want "open" tournaments to give players from weaker regions a shot so not every tournament is 90% koreans. WESG just enhances this further so players from even weaker regions get a shot.
you can't really use the "Why would you not want to have the best players at your tournament?" argument and support region-lock at the same time.
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On November 17 2018 09:42 Lillyngve wrote: Why would this be a bad thing? And let's be real, who would you rather see get one of those invite-spots? I'm all for it, go Serral!
The one who qualifies properly.
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yes I agree OP, it rubs me the wrong way. It wouldn't rub me the wrong way if the rules didn't seem to be made up as they go.
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Are you just against the fact that Serral is doing advertisement? Or are you complaining about invites in general ?But what about the other 3 invites then? I do not really understand what the issue is.
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On November 17 2018 21:39 ilovegroov wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2018 09:42 Lillyngve wrote: Why would this be a bad thing? And let's be real, who would you rather see get one of those invite-spots? I'm all for it, go Serral! The one who qualifies properly.
There are 12 more spots to fight for for those who "qualifies properly" compared to last year. Win-win-win in my books
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On November 17 2018 23:41 Phaenoman wrote: Are you just against the fact that Serral is doing advertisement? Or are you complaining about invites in general ?But what about the other 3 invites then? I do not really understand what the issue is. Both. I think it sucks that there are invites at all for this kind of tournament, but I find it especially annoying if the organizers make players do advertising for the invites.
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just remember that this is all business, at the very core. serral is at the top and he will bring more eyes, which attracts more sponsors, which incentivize event producers to produce these events and more.
not saying invites and requiring advertising is necessary, but it's necessary for producers and gamers to make money to keep the scene healthy. I'm sure you already konw this though
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On November 17 2018 21:07 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2018 20:58 sneakyfox wrote:On November 17 2018 19:45 Charoisaur wrote:On November 17 2018 19:34 sneakyfox wrote:On November 17 2018 11:18 Waxangel wrote: I think this would have bothered me more a long time ago, but I've grown more and more cynical and accepting about the fact that sports is more entertainment than competition (it only has to be competitive enough to keep the majority of fans happy).
However, I do think the "BlizzCon champ should get a seed" line of thinking really misses the point, because it's the PRINCIPLE of the act (giving star players any kind of preferential treatment in exchange for promotion) that's interesting here, not the specifics of this particular case. I imagine there's some line to be crossed that most fans would find distasteful. For instance, what would people think if WESG offered a seed to a player who's not as universally revered like Serral, but has a similar amount of reach/popularity? Hypothetically, what if they had given TIME—a far lesser player than Serral but probably the most known in the Chinese market—the same offer? I think this is pretty much spot on. It is a shame to do things this way, and I am actually pretty convinced that the core of what makes Starcraft interesting is slowly hollowed out by stuff like this. As for who deserves the invites based on their competetive merits, there is no doubt that Serral is one of the four. The other three should go to Maru and two other Koreans. This would help balance out the (competitively speaking) extremely skewed qualification system they have chosen for WESG. It's is so weird that they have chosen to pretend that elite-level SC2 is truly global, just so it can fit with their other games. Why would you not want to have the best players at your tournament? to give players from other regions a shot? You know - the reason behind region-locking. This is much more than Blizzards region lock. I think they do it because they want the same structure across their various games. Perhaps to give it an air of 'esports olympics' with a big variety in national representation. of course it's much more than Blizzard's region lock but the idea behind it is the same. Blizzard doesn't want "open" tournaments to give players from weaker regions a shot so not every tournament is 90% koreans. WESG just enhances this further so players from even weaker regions get a shot.
Not exactly the same. Blizzard doesn't really want people from every region. Circuit is dominated by European countries plus a couple of north americans. Blizzard just prevent players from the single, strongest country to participate. WESG, on the other hand, is trying to be really global. And the result is a tournament with all sorts of mediocre players.
On November 17 2018 21:07 Charoisaur wrote: you can't really use the "Why would you not want to have the best players at your tournament?" argument and support region-lock at the same time.
What are you talking about. Why would you think that I support region lock?
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IEM World Champ auto seed WCS Global. Global Champ seeds to WESG. Seems fair to me.
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On November 17 2018 13:07 ggrrg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2018 10:47 11cc wrote:On November 17 2018 10:33 yht9657 wrote: A lot of people cry when sOs beat Maru fair and square and they didn't get to see Maru vs Serral in WCS.
Now WESG gives us what we all want to see and invites Maru and Serral directly to the main event, why would you be annoyed by it? And it's not like Serral would have any trouble getting through the qualifers. I want to see Serral and Maru play against each other because I consider them to be the best players, but not artificially. I don't want brackets to be rigged or free wins to be awarded or any nonsense like that for the ideal match up to happen, and that would include invites to a mostly competitive tournament. ... Free wins are a given at WESG. Have you taken a look through the regional qualifiers for the event? Serbia and Mongolia have each their own qualifier for the main event... I am willing to bet that whatever players qualify in those will not stand any chance at the tournament... For Mongolia it is looking like the only player that signed up for the first qualifier may get a ticket to the grand finals by default if noone else signs up for the second qualifier... Besides those, WESG has a bunch of other regional qualifiers that seem to produce players that will simply get stomped during the main event. I'd say Serral getting an invite to the main event is effectively just giving the Scandinavian qualifier a second spot for WESG, which I am perfectly fine with since it looks like the first round of WESG will be just a whole lot of one-sided stomps... edit: there is even a Macau only qualifier X_X
I completely agree, but, it does give some players motivation to compete with high level players, maybe this the way some hidden talent from China, Bulgaria or Serbia comes up and do a surprise. On the other way this tournament have a huge price pool and is obviously unrepresented, 80 percent of qualies arent streamed. And WESG might be comparable to some strong tournaments like IEM and price pool is more similar to Blizzcon.
As someone who qualified for China and I know I have zero chance to beat anyone and would gladly donate my ot to someone more skilled from Europe, NA or Korea if its possible. I am sure that format of tournament will change when WESG becomes more popular as it should be. Its huge.
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On November 17 2018 09:50 11cc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2018 09:42 Lillyngve wrote: In 2016 there were 24 players in WESG playoffs, in 2017 there were 30. Now for 2018 there are 48 players who get to play in the final event, and 4 of those spots are invites. So they've increased the number of players each year, and this year they added in 4 invite spot (on top of the 14 extra from qualifiers).
Why would this be a bad thing? And let's be real, who would you rather see get one of those invite-spots? I'm all for it, go Serral! I'd prefer there to be no invites at all. And in case there were I'd prefer those weren't sold. Just having everyone be chosen with qualifiers would be better in my opinion.
IDK if he was "sold" the invitation. WESG probably contact the players who they were invited and asked them to advertise the tournament, which in reality is both good for the players and organization - builds hype. As for invites in general, I think it is mainly okay as long as they keep the invites at a low number. 4 is probably a bit too many, I'd say just invite the two Blizzcon finalists and be good there, thus Serral would indeed get an invite regardless. Out of 48 total players playing, I think that having 46 of those coming from qualifiers is enough for a good competitive "worldwide" tournament, considering some regions are far weaker on a global scale.
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inviting serral actually makes the tournament qualifying spots more competitive tbh, don't have to worry about him guaranteed knocking out half the bracket and instead get to see those players play some real matches.
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In a similar vein,
Maru got an invite to WESG proper and he gets to skip the super competitive Korean qualifiers.
This seems to be in exchange of Maru doing absolutely nothing at all. He didn't have to advertise the tournament on his stream or twitter.
Does this rub anyone else the wrong way? I know invitational tournaments are common, but in this case WESG being mostly a competitive tournament, getting a free spot with no effort seems shitty to me.
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Look, if Serral were on Masa's level, it would be unfair to Serral because he would not be able to pick up qualifier money. (I use Masa as an example due to a previous situation in NA where Masa was invited but that was stupid because the only money he makes is in qualifiers and possibly the first tourney round, at that level.
So no, the decision is not unfair to Serral, because Serral is not losing any money proportional to his caliber. He can advance when he gets there.
As for the opposite side of the argument, which the OP seems to claim, it is foolish on multiple grounds. First, inviting the top 4 from last year is reasonable by all means. Secondly, Korea qualifiers this year have only 2 qualifying spots whereas last year they had 3 (Whether Dark is invited and Innovation will be properly given Dark's spot before the KR Ro8 remains to be seen; this is extraneous.). However, the Scandinavian qualifier this year has been renamed 'Sweden' qualifier and still keeps one spot, the same as last year. Thirdly, the premise of the argument is ridiculous because, as you age, you will discover that people who get things done in life are those who act first and get permission later. The tourney organizers have every right to organize the tourney however they see fit. They do not need to seek 'the authorities' and form 'a committee' to discuss 'the proper way things should be done'. That's not how real life works.
I think that you should have asked a real question like, "What are Namshar's chances in the European stage, given that Serral ordinarily would have ousted him?"
Edit: In my personal opinion, if Classic and Dark are not the other two invitees, I will not be happy.
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Some people love to complain about anything.
There is no timeline in which Serral wouldn't easily qualify for his region to WESG 2018 so the invite doesn't matter.
What is a problem is the fact that WESG is spending tons of money on great production streams, meanwhile nobody seems to know it exists and they get like 100 viewers for the equivalent of WCS Challenger NA, played live in a studio with 2 WCS casters. Serral trying to raise awareness about this tournament is a great thing, every other qualified or invited player should do the same. They won't keep doing these tournaments if no one watches.
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I have no problems with it. We've had invite tournaments since forever and nobody ever complains about those. Asking your invites to advertise on top of it is perfectly reasonable.
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One day my mum, who had adopted a younger sibling, told me that I needed to go through the adoption process too, "to be fair". /s
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On November 19 2018 03:43 KR_4EVR wrote: As for the opposite side of the argument, which the OP seems to claim, it is foolish on multiple grounds. First, inviting the top 4 from last year is reasonable by all means. So it's the top4 from last year who get invites? Liquipedia isn't updated with that info. I wouldn't have bothered to make a thread if that's the case, especially if it's in the rules. The impression I had was that there is no transparent system for the invites, and they thought it a great opportunity for free marketing inviting a player who would in return market their tournament.
Secondly, Korea qualifiers this year have only 2 qualifying spots whereas last year they had 3 (Whether Dark is invited and Innovation will be properly given Dark's spot before the KR Ro8 remains to be seen; this is extraneous.). However, the Scandinavian qualifier this year has been renamed 'Sweden' qualifier and still keeps one spot, the same as last year. I don't know what all of that got to do with anything.
Thirdly, the premise of the argument is ridiculous because, as you age, you will discover that people who get things done in life are those who act first and get permission later. The tourney organizers have every right to organize the tourney however they see fit. They do not need to seek 'the authorities' and form 'a committee' to discuss 'the proper way things should be done'. That's not how real life works. That seems like some garbage advice in general. In most cases if you need permission for something, you really should get it first before doing anything, but maybe I'm just not old enough yet. Of course that has nothing to do with this whole topic because WESG doesn't need a permission for inviting players. I don't know what's all this about committees and authorities. Have you maybe concocted some weird fantasy argument that you now wish to attribute to me?
I think that you should have asked a real question like, "What are Namshar's chances in the European stage, given that Serral ordinarily would have ousted him?" Thanks for advice.
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On November 19 2018 01:50 argonautdice wrote: In a similar vein,
Maru got an invite to WESG proper and he gets to skip the super competitive Korean qualifiers.
This seems to be in exchange of Maru doing absolutely nothing at all. He didn't have to advertise the tournament on his stream or twitter.
Does this rub anyone else the wrong way? I know invitational tournaments are common, but in this case WESG being mostly a competitive tournament, getting a free spot with no effort seems shitty to me. he gets a free spot for doing nothing except winning the previous iteration of the tournament...
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i guess people don't have enough other crap in their lives to complain about
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On November 19 2018 05:14 litLikeBic wrote: i guess people don't have enough other crap in their lives to complain about
saying things like this is akin to saying "i don't agree with you, so stop talking"
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On November 19 2018 05:45 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2018 05:14 litLikeBic wrote: i guess people don't have enough other crap in their lives to complain about saying things like this is akin to saying "i don't agree with you, so stop talking" Usually I’d agree but in this case it’s trying to put things in perspective I guess. Having an invitational based on merit or fame as well as a qualifier (“open”) is very common and as long as everything is communicated and transparent I see no issue. In this particular case with Serral even less so.
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On November 17 2018 12:03 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2018 12:01 Vutalisk wrote: It is WESG. Who cares? Thank god for the money. Otherwise, no one even knows that event exists. that's true for every event tbh It is but at least some events you have a bragging right winning them. For WESG, people just said you won 200K. Literally, that is what Artosis and Tasteless said regarding TY winning WESG. WESG has no prestige associated with it.
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On November 19 2018 05:45 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2018 05:14 litLikeBic wrote: i guess people don't have enough other crap in their lives to complain about saying things like this is akin to saying "i don't agree with you, so stop talking" which is the correct thing to say when an entire line of complaint is about something that hurts nobody, affects nothing and can only further marginalize an already niche community with a reputation for absurd unnecessary internal drama and negativity
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"Does this rub anyone else the wrong way?" - Just, no! He's the world champion, the best player of the year, so he deserves one of the 4 invite...
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On November 19 2018 13:05 Vutalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2018 12:03 Charoisaur wrote:On November 17 2018 12:01 Vutalisk wrote: It is WESG. Who cares? Thank god for the money. Otherwise, no one even knows that event exists. that's true for every event tbh It is but at least some events you have a bragging right winning them. For WESG, people just said you won 200K. Literally, that is what Artosis and Tasteless said regarding TY winning WESG. WESG has no prestige associated with it.
Literraly everyone in the scene will be envious of 200K dollars prize pool, and very little will find a problem with the best player being invited.
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On November 18 2018 00:22 vyzion87 wrote: just remember that this is all business, at the very core. serral is at the top and he will bring more eyes, which attracts more sponsors, which incentivize event producers to produce these events and more.
not saying invites and requiring advertising is necessary, but it's necessary for producers and gamers to make money to keep the scene healthy. I'm sure you already konw this though
This.
Its a "private" tournament, so they can invite/organize it however they want. If they can get more viewers/sponsors/money in by giving invites for some advertising, its all good. We already have WCS/GSL and many other tournaments that are run with basic rulings. In fact, I would really love to have more variety in tournaments, some special invite-only tournaments and even some more relaxed ones as well (besides the excellent HSC). The more the merrier.
People should really realize, that all the money comes from somewhere. In SC2-scene, there really is need for more of it to keep scene healthier and even the most whined Korean scene more populated. No, money shouldnt determine the whole structures of tournaments or the scene itself, but neither it cant be ignored when planning about future of Starcraft.
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On November 19 2018 17:20 Starcloud wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2018 00:22 vyzion87 wrote: just remember that this is all business, at the very core. serral is at the top and he will bring more eyes, which attracts more sponsors, which incentivize event producers to produce these events and more.
not saying invites and requiring advertising is necessary, but it's necessary for producers and gamers to make money to keep the scene healthy. I'm sure you already konw this though This. Its a "private" tournament, so they can invite/organize it however they want. If they can get more viewers/sponsors/money in by giving invites for some advertising, its all good. We already have WCS/GSL and many other tournaments that are run with basic rulings. In fact, I would really love to have more variety in tournaments, some special invite-only tournaments and even some more relaxed ones as well (besides the excellent HSC). The more the merrier. People should really realize, that all the money comes from somewhere. In SC2-scene, there really is need for more of it to keep scene healthier and even the most whined Korean scene more populated. No, money shouldnt determine the whole structures of tournaments or the scene itself, but neither it cant be ignored when planning about future of Starcraft. it's not even about money. remove business from this equation and there's still zero ethical problem with any of this due to serral's stature as a player and the tournament organizers' sovereignty in whom they want to invite.
at my work we host small local wrestling events, and the same few wrestlers are always there because they're popular and their association makes the event and their community inherently stronger. no, wrestling is not exactly "competitive" in the way SC2 is (in fact i think wrestling is dogshit), but the reality of how to generate buzz in a niche sporting community is the same.
there's nothing "fair" about the playoff structure of any sports league or tournament. that's why people debate format so often, because everything has pros and cons. i can't put into words how obscenely petty i think it is to act like some kind of line has been crossed here. people need to chill, just celebrate serral and enjoy starcraft instead of making up problems.
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On November 19 2018 18:30 brickrd wrote:
there's nothing "fair" about the playoff structure of any sports league or tournament. that's why people debate format so often, because everything has pros and cons. i can't put into words how obscenely petty i think it is to act like some kind of line has been crossed here. people need to chill, just celebrate serral and enjoy starcraft instead of making up problems. I'd say most of the regular formats are pretty fair.
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On November 18 2018 01:29 ZeRoX_TV wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2018 13:07 ggrrg wrote:On November 17 2018 10:47 11cc wrote:On November 17 2018 10:33 yht9657 wrote: A lot of people cry when sOs beat Maru fair and square and they didn't get to see Maru vs Serral in WCS.
Now WESG gives us what we all want to see and invites Maru and Serral directly to the main event, why would you be annoyed by it? And it's not like Serral would have any trouble getting through the qualifers. I want to see Serral and Maru play against each other because I consider them to be the best players, but not artificially. I don't want brackets to be rigged or free wins to be awarded or any nonsense like that for the ideal match up to happen, and that would include invites to a mostly competitive tournament. ... Free wins are a given at WESG. Have you taken a look through the regional qualifiers for the event? Serbia and Mongolia have each their own qualifier for the main event... I am willing to bet that whatever players qualify in those will not stand any chance at the tournament... For Mongolia it is looking like the only player that signed up for the first qualifier may get a ticket to the grand finals by default if noone else signs up for the second qualifier... Besides those, WESG has a bunch of other regional qualifiers that seem to produce players that will simply get stomped during the main event. I'd say Serral getting an invite to the main event is effectively just giving the Scandinavian qualifier a second spot for WESG, which I am perfectly fine with since it looks like the first round of WESG will be just a whole lot of one-sided stomps... edit: there is even a Macau only qualifier X_X I completely agree, but, it does give some players motivation to compete with high level players, maybe this the way some hidden talent from China, Bulgaria or Serbia comes up and do a surprise. On the other way this tournament have a huge price pool and is obviously unrepresented, 80 percent of qualies arent streamed. And WESG might be comparable to some strong tournaments like IEM and price pool is more similar to Blizzcon. As someone who qualified for China and I know I have zero chance to beat anyone and would gladly donate my ot to someone more skilled from Europe, NA or Korea if its possible. I am sure that format of tournament will change when WESG becomes more popular as it should be. Its huge.
Well, gratulations dude! Good job and good luck in the tournament
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On November 19 2018 19:38 11cc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2018 18:30 brickrd wrote:
there's nothing "fair" about the playoff structure of any sports league or tournament. that's why people debate format so often, because everything has pros and cons. i can't put into words how obscenely petty i think it is to act like some kind of line has been crossed here. people need to chill, just celebrate serral and enjoy starcraft instead of making up problems. I'd say most of the regular formats are pretty fair.
A lot of regular formats do a playoffs with a seeding where the highest ranking competitor/team plays against the lowest ranking competitor/team. Critics of these formats usually see this as a "rich get richer" situation where the best players are given the easiest matches in what many see as an attempt to indirectly produce the most anticipated high-level match possible out of those competing. And yeah, it's pretty much true, but I don't see that as "unfair". In fact, I see it as appropriate to give the best of the best from the regular half of the season an advantage going into the playoffs. A reward for their labor. Some people see that as wrong, others see it as justified. It really comes down to how you view things
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On November 20 2018 02:10 StasisField wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2018 19:38 11cc wrote:On November 19 2018 18:30 brickrd wrote:
there's nothing "fair" about the playoff structure of any sports league or tournament. that's why people debate format so often, because everything has pros and cons. i can't put into words how obscenely petty i think it is to act like some kind of line has been crossed here. people need to chill, just celebrate serral and enjoy starcraft instead of making up problems. I'd say most of the regular formats are pretty fair. A lot of regular formats do a playoffs with a seeding where the highest ranking competitor/team plays against the lowest ranking competitor/team. Critics of these formats usually see this as a "rich get richer" situation where the best players are given the easiest matches in what many see as an attempt to indirectly produce the most anticipated high-level match possible out of those competing. And yeah, it's pretty much true, but I don't see that as "unfair". In fact, I see it as appropriate to give the best of the best from the regular half of the season an advantage going into the playoffs. A reward for their labor. Some people see that as wrong, others see it as justified. It really comes down to how you view things
The format decision is less about fairness than about incentives. If you choose “playoff” (= loser is out) and the best team will NOT face the weakest, then there is little incentive to finish the regular season as the best team. The implications on entertainment value is obvious.
If you choose “round-based” (=loser still has a chance, total points after x rounds are relevant) then it is perfectly fine to let winners of each round compete against each other.
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On November 19 2018 19:53 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2018 01:29 ZeRoX_TV wrote:On November 17 2018 13:07 ggrrg wrote:On November 17 2018 10:47 11cc wrote:On November 17 2018 10:33 yht9657 wrote: A lot of people cry when sOs beat Maru fair and square and they didn't get to see Maru vs Serral in WCS.
Now WESG gives us what we all want to see and invites Maru and Serral directly to the main event, why would you be annoyed by it? And it's not like Serral would have any trouble getting through the qualifers. I want to see Serral and Maru play against each other because I consider them to be the best players, but not artificially. I don't want brackets to be rigged or free wins to be awarded or any nonsense like that for the ideal match up to happen, and that would include invites to a mostly competitive tournament. ... Free wins are a given at WESG. Have you taken a look through the regional qualifiers for the event? Serbia and Mongolia have each their own qualifier for the main event... I am willing to bet that whatever players qualify in those will not stand any chance at the tournament... For Mongolia it is looking like the only player that signed up for the first qualifier may get a ticket to the grand finals by default if noone else signs up for the second qualifier... Besides those, WESG has a bunch of other regional qualifiers that seem to produce players that will simply get stomped during the main event. I'd say Serral getting an invite to the main event is effectively just giving the Scandinavian qualifier a second spot for WESG, which I am perfectly fine with since it looks like the first round of WESG will be just a whole lot of one-sided stomps... edit: there is even a Macau only qualifier X_X I completely agree, but, it does give some players motivation to compete with high level players, maybe this the way some hidden talent from China, Bulgaria or Serbia comes up and do a surprise. On the other way this tournament have a huge price pool and is obviously unrepresented, 80 percent of qualies arent streamed. And WESG might be comparable to some strong tournaments like IEM and price pool is more similar to Blizzcon. As someone who qualified for China and I know I have zero chance to beat anyone and would gladly donate my ot to someone more skilled from Europe, NA or Korea if its possible. I am sure that format of tournament will change when WESG becomes more popular as it should be. Its huge. Well, gratulations dude! Good job and good luck in the tournament
Thanks
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We should not make the assumption that the invite is all Serral is getting out of the deal. In a sane world WESG would be begging Serral to attend their tournament and if someone should be asking money it's Serral.
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I just saw Stephano is qualified for Africa? Is he half tunisian? Clever fellow this one :D
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On December 05 2018 22:07 Harris1st wrote: I just saw Stephano is qualified for Africa? Is he half tunisian? Clever fellow this one :D
Yeah, he did it last year as well.
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Italy2573 Posts
LeFaucheur tried that too and Spazymazy did the same with East Europe quali (he's half Turkish)
edit: at least they can try in only one of the qualifiers available
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On November 17 2018 11:18 Waxangel wrote: I think this would have bothered me more a long time ago, but I've grown more and more cynical and accepting about the fact that sports is more entertainment than competition (it only has to be competitive enough to keep the majority of fans happy).
However, I do think the "BlizzCon champ should get a seed" line of thinking really misses the point, because it's the PRINCIPLE of the act (giving star players any kind of preferential treatment in exchange for promotion) that's interesting here, not the specifics of this particular case. I imagine there's some line to be crossed that most fans would find distasteful. For instance, what would people think if WESG offered a seed to a player who's not as universally revered like Serral, but has a similar amount of reach/popularity? Hypothetically, what if they had given TIME—a far lesser player than Serral but probably the most known in the Chinese market—the same offer?
I don't know about your first statement that sports is more about entertainment than competition but for the second part: In case they would have invited him regardless of he accepted or declined the need to do promo (as long as we do not have any proof of that its merely speculation as well btw) I believe its fine.
If his invite was bound to doing promo as well I believe it was wrong.
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On November 19 2018 13:05 Vutalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2018 12:03 Charoisaur wrote:On November 17 2018 12:01 Vutalisk wrote: It is WESG. Who cares? Thank god for the money. Otherwise, no one even knows that event exists. that's true for every event tbh It is but at least some events you have a bragging right winning them. For WESG, people just said you won 200K. Literally, that is what Artosis and Tasteless said regarding TY winning WESG. WESG has no prestige associated with it.
It's always this way when east and west clash.
Nowadays all the media and attention is trying to get away from China. As you said by yourself as a westerner you don't care so much about the tournament - this is because there isn't such media hype and talk about it. In fact this is maybe the 2nd largest tournament (after blizzcon) where people from any place in the world can face each other. And also another fact is that Chinese companies hold >50% of the gaming world if you don't know.
I personally believe that In the real near future blizzcon won't be as significant in esports as other tournaments e.g. compared to DotA2 the prizes in SC2 are like breadcrumbs. Just matters the point of view you have.
$200 000 prize is not a thing to neglect.
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Why are you assuming it was an exchange for social media? If they invited Serral and he didn’t have the banner on his stream no one would be surprised. He has “earned” his invite regardless
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On December 05 2018 23:42 Wyrd wrote: Why are you assuming it was an exchange for social media? If they invited Serral and he didn’t have the banner on his stream no one would be surprised. He has “earned” his invite regardless I'm not 100% sure about it. The other option would be that WESG had a separate deal with Serral for advertising, which is possible but to me it feels less likely.
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