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On May 12 2012 00:39 Catatonic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 08:50 IPA wrote:
I'm anti unranked ladder period because it coddles all of the "terrified" players from stepping into the joy and heartbreak of true ladder. I think it'll raise up a new crop of cowards in HotS. No....just no.... There are those who would like to be able to work with the new units and figure out he new strats without access to a practice partner and this feature would give them the opportunity to do that. An not having it won't stop players who are "terrified" to play from not playing cause they just wont play. This would actually make the transition easy so I'm really not sure what your point even is cause all you've said to this point in time is false.
I didn't think my point was obscure in my post -- allow me to clarify my position since you seem puzzled.
Search "ladder anxiety" in the SC2 general forum. It is a wide-spread phenomenon. Yes, Blizzard is wise to include unranked matchmaking in HotS because they are a business and it will provide worry-free entertainment for a bunch of (apparently) anxiety-stricken gamers used to having their hands held and thinking they are number one. You say it will be used by people trying out new strats and learning new units -- yes, it will be, to some extent, and that is fine and dandy. In my opinion (and on a much larger scale) it will be used mainly by kids who don't like to see how they stack up to others in a ranked, competitive environment because their fragile egos cannot handle the knowledge that they are not champions, but rather just another bit of prey in an enormous competitive cycle. That knowledge, and the sheer ferocious joy of beating someone when it counts, make SC2 what it is for me (and others too).
I know I'm in the minority here (and that's fine) but if you don't like competition and can't handle the elegant agony of defeat in SC2, you're playing the wrong game. That's my .02.
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If i ever heard the word "ladder anxiety" again i will kill someone.
As someone who is high master, and has a lot of high master friends i can tell you that the thing that we do, and its a god damn bad thing to do... since its a "time sink", but non the less the thing we do when we loss is play more til we win, maybe go for a walk or have a few days break after horrible losses but i can't think of a GM/high master player that only plays 70 "well thought out" games per season so he doesn't get "mocked" for having a low rank.
And why the fuck would you care if you are not even competitive, the whole concept of being gold and being afraid to drop to silver is ridiculous... i understand that its a "natural" thing but if filtered trough logic you realize how silly it is... and guess what, "filtering" trough logic is something you have to do a lot when playing sc2.
So quite frankly if someone cannot play cuz he is "scared' of not getting diamond most of the time they won't be able to play at all since after 1 or 2 losses they will get so angry that they won't be able to play well anymore since they won't think rationally due to emotions... there is not real way to help someone overcome "ladder anxiety" other than for himself to realize how silly the very notion of ladder anxiety is and no "season 1 import ratings from beta/wol" will change that quite frankly.
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On May 12 2012 01:34 Aterons_toss wrote:
If i ever heard the word "ladder anxiety" again i will kill someone.
As someone who is high master, and has a lot of high master friends i can tell you that the thing that we do, and its a god damn bad thing to do... since its a "time sink", but non the less the thing we do when we loss is play more til we win, maybe go for a walk or have a few days break after horrible losses but i can't think of a GM/high master player that only plays 70 "well thought out" games per season so he doesn't get "mocked" for having a low rank.
And why the fuck would you care if you are not even competitive, the whole concept of being gold and being afraid to drop to silver is ridiculous... i understand that its a "natural" thing but if filtered trough logic you realize how silly it is... and guess what, "filtering" trough logic is something you have to do a lot when playing sc2.
So quite frankly if someone cannot play cuz he is "scared' of not getting diamond most of the time they won't be able to play at all since after 1 or 2 losses they will get so angry that they won't be able to play well anymore since they won't think rationally due to emotions... there is not real way to help someone overcome "ladder anxiety" other than for himself to realize how silly the very notion of ladder anxiety is and no "season 1 import ratings from beta/wol" will change that quite frankly.
its normal that some people don't like to be judged, even in games. that's what unranked is for
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On May 12 2012 01:48 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 01:34 Aterons_toss wrote:
If i ever heard the word "ladder anxiety" again i will kill someone.
As someone who is high master, and has a lot of high master friends i can tell you that the thing that we do, and its a god damn bad thing to do... since its a "time sink", but non the less the thing we do when we loss is play more til we win, maybe go for a walk or have a few days break after horrible losses but i can't think of a GM/high master player that only plays 70 "well thought out" games per season so he doesn't get "mocked" for having a low rank.
And why the fuck would you care if you are not even competitive, the whole concept of being gold and being afraid to drop to silver is ridiculous... i understand that its a "natural" thing but if filtered trough logic you realize how silly it is... and guess what, "filtering" trough logic is something you have to do a lot when playing sc2.
So quite frankly if someone cannot play cuz he is "scared' of not getting diamond most of the time they won't be able to play at all since after 1 or 2 losses they will get so angry that they won't be able to play well anymore since they won't think rationally due to emotions... there is not real way to help someone overcome "ladder anxiety" other than for himself to realize how silly the very notion of ladder anxiety is and no "season 1 import ratings from beta/wol" will change that quite frankly. its normal that some people don't like to be judged, even in games. that's what unranked is for
I said its normal, i agree, but if they can't get over it than there will likely be other similar obstacles laddering that they will face so why not accept ladder type of play isn't for them ? is not like you can't find custom matches nowadays
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It would be amazing if you could chose the race to play against. Other than that I feel it is completely useless.
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people saying that unranked is for people afraid of ladder, but those people aren't going to keep playing anyways because they don't care about ladder, they just hate losing.
i only hope that unranked matchmaking does consider your mmr a little bit though, since i don't want to stomp bronze players and then get totally rocked by top masters. i just want an environment where i can be one click away from practice my mechanics and build orders with an actual opponent instead of AI and not worry about winning or losing.
edit: to clarify, my mindset going into this game and any other competition for the sake of entertainment is simply getting better quickly. i don't care about making friends or connections or sharing an experience with anyone in this game, really. i just like playing and learning and improving, even if it's by myself. to that end, i don't like joining clans or trying to find practice partners. i just want to play.
but if i'm going to play ladder, i want to play my best, and i often cannot do that because i'm more concerned about not losing then i am about playing well, which is not fun for me. however i want to play against actual people, so this unranked matchmaking is really good for someone like me who wants to build better habits in game without having to go through a whole deal of psyching myself up and altering my way of thinking in an unnatural way.
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On May 11 2012 08:35 HeroMystic wrote:
If anything, Unranked Matchmaking would be absolutely required so players can get used to the new units and build viable strats before going on the ladder.
No its not required because everyone is on the same page. If everyone had to get used to the new units, it means that everyone has the same advantage/disadvantage. I really don't understand this at all. I mean I will continue to play whatever the hell I want, with complete disregard to my rank. Do you know why? Because i'm the only person in the whole who actually doesn't gives a damn about it. My friends don't give me shit about it... Do your's? If they do, you should really consider getting new friends... I mean really... That rank is only to tell you how much you improved since last time... I really don't understand why there even is a "ladder anxiety"... Jesus christ, why the hell are you afraid of dropping down a few points? Are you friends going to make fun of you? Are you going to die if you meet people who are EQUALLY matched with you? Is that why you are afraid? OMG I JUST LOST TO A GOLD LEAGUE PLAYER?!?! I feel pity.... Just do as I do.. As soon as your match is over, just get out of the damn multiplayer screen.... You don't need to know how good he was... If you need to learn, all info is in the replay....
YOU NEVER NEED TO KNOW WHAT RANK HE WAS....
It doesn't even matter to how well you played.... You lost or won because of some timing or army positioning or whatever.. Not because he was lucky... YOU LOST BECAUSE YOU GOT OUTPLAYED... As soon as you see that, you will improve, I promise you....
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I think this is a great idea for practicing new builds. Custom games are nice but have no idea who you are going to play
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I don't really plan on using it, so I guess I'd say "don't care."
Are people really that fearful of losing points? If I'm anxious about playing in a ranked 1v1 against some player, I'm still going to be anxious playing against that player 1v1 in an unranked match. The rank has nothing to do with, I want to win because I want to win, and when I lose I feel bad about losing. If it says +0 after a loss, that doesn't make me feel any less bad about losing to that player because I still lost!
I'm thinking some people are going to realize once this is released that their anxiety doesn't stem from ranked/unranked.
But anyways, even if you were afraid of someone having an unfair advantage at HotS season 1 start, and you thought you'd lose games, why would you play unranked? If you'd lose in ranked, you'll lose in unranked. If you start to win in unranked, you'd be winning in ranked too. Ranked ladder will simulate the exact same process.
For example,
Scenario 1: Let's say you start out bad and want to play unranked to improve. So you play and lose a bunch because you're bad. You continue to lose, but continue to learn also. Then eventually you start to win more because you've gotten good again, and now you rejoin ranked playing at your correct skill level.
Scenario 2: You start out bad and want to played ranked to improve. You play a lose a bunch because you're bad and your rating goes down. You continue to lose and learn while your rating drop slows down. Eventually you start to win more again because you're improving and your rating goes up. You become good again and because you've been playing ranked and winning now, your ladder rank has moved back to the correct position based on your skill.
What is the purpose of scenario 1?
Just improve your actual ability at the game, and your ladder league/points will follow. Don't waste time worrying about temporary drops in points.
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There's already unranked matches, they are called custom games. Playing a weak opponment (in order to win), is only delaying a loss.
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no, i want to smash noobs.
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On May 12 2012 01:03 Glockateer wrote:
I don't see why you guys have to make it so complicated. Simply have two different MMRs. Ladder can stay the same and Unranked can have a rough hidden MMR with no wins/losses recorded. They should have it be a bit more relaxed for faster match finding (especially at the higher end) and the fact it is meant for enjoyment/practice/offracing or whatever.
This is a clever idea and it would bascially solve completely everything. But I doubt it will be implemented like that and I am afraid that ladder MMR will play at least some role. Let us only hope it will not be influenced - but I won't be so sure.
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On May 12 2012 06:19 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 01:03 Glockateer wrote:
I don't see why you guys have to make it so complicated. Simply have two different MMRs. Ladder can stay the same and Unranked can have a rough hidden MMR with no wins/losses recorded. They should have it be a bit more relaxed for faster match finding (especially at the higher end) and the fact it is meant for enjoyment/practice/offracing or whatever. This is a clever idea and it would bascially solve completely everything. But I doubt it will be implemented like that and I am afraid that ladder MMR will play at least some role. Let us only hope it will not be influenced - but I won't be so sure.
What's that solve though?
Its more about people being fearful to ladder. The people using it to both Ladder and practice new things unranked are using it kind of 'as intended'
It's more the people who would have otherwise tried the ladder, but now will not touch it that i'm concerned about.
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Having separate MMRs for both ladders introduces other problems, as the non-ranked ladder has no consequences for losing what is stopping me from insta-leaving 10~ games on unranked, and then stomping those people, and doing it again? All the while my "real" masters MMR is unaffected. It's essentially a free smurf account for an environment that is hardly competitive, and barely different from the custom game system in place now.
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I could give a shit about unranked play. THe only reason I'm going to use it at all is they said it can be used for offracing, so I'm assuming there's a different MMR attatched which I will use to play lower level people with my main race to test builds/ideas in a low pressure enviroment and to offrace. I don't know why you assume they're going to delay everything for unranked MM anyway.
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On May 12 2012 05:56 AeroGear wrote:
There's already unranked matches, they are called custom games. Playing a weak opponment (in order to win), is only delaying a loss.
Indeed, but not everybody wants unranked ladder games to play weak opponents.
I, for one, realized that there are so many anxious and easily irritated people on the ladder, even in the lower leagues,
and if these unranked matches can calm some of those people down then it's a good thing.
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On May 12 2012 03:46 Aterons_toss wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 01:48 iky43210 wrote:On May 12 2012 01:34 Aterons_toss wrote:
If i ever heard the word "ladder anxiety" again i will kill someone.
As someone who is high master, and has a lot of high master friends i can tell you that the thing that we do, and its a god damn bad thing to do... since its a "time sink", but non the less the thing we do when we loss is play more til we win, maybe go for a walk or have a few days break after horrible losses but i can't think of a GM/high master player that only plays 70 "well thought out" games per season so he doesn't get "mocked" for having a low rank.
And why the fuck would you care if you are not even competitive, the whole concept of being gold and being afraid to drop to silver is ridiculous... i understand that its a "natural" thing but if filtered trough logic you realize how silly it is... and guess what, "filtering" trough logic is something you have to do a lot when playing sc2.
So quite frankly if someone cannot play cuz he is "scared' of not getting diamond most of the time they won't be able to play at all since after 1 or 2 losses they will get so angry that they won't be able to play well anymore since they won't think rationally due to emotions... there is not real way to help someone overcome "ladder anxiety" other than for himself to realize how silly the very notion of ladder anxiety is and no "season 1 import ratings from beta/wol" will change that quite frankly. its normal that some people don't like to be judged, even in games. that's what unranked is for I said its normal, i agree, but if they can't get over it than there will likely be other similar obstacles laddering that they will face so why not accept ladder type of play isn't for them ? is not like you can't find custom matches nowadays
last time i tried to play a custom, i only faced people either WAY above me or WAY below me
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i would actually play way more if i could play drunk 
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On May 12 2012 03:46 Aterons_toss wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 01:48 iky43210 wrote:On May 12 2012 01:34 Aterons_toss wrote:
If i ever heard the word "ladder anxiety" again i will kill someone.
As someone who is high master, and has a lot of high master friends i can tell you that the thing that we do, and its a god damn bad thing to do... since its a "time sink", but non the less the thing we do when we loss is play more til we win, maybe go for a walk or have a few days break after horrible losses but i can't think of a GM/high master player that only plays 70 "well thought out" games per season so he doesn't get "mocked" for having a low rank.
And why the fuck would you care if you are not even competitive, the whole concept of being gold and being afraid to drop to silver is ridiculous... i understand that its a "natural" thing but if filtered trough logic you realize how silly it is... and guess what, "filtering" trough logic is something you have to do a lot when playing sc2.
So quite frankly if someone cannot play cuz he is "scared' of not getting diamond most of the time they won't be able to play at all since after 1 or 2 losses they will get so angry that they won't be able to play well anymore since they won't think rationally due to emotions... there is not real way to help someone overcome "ladder anxiety" other than for himself to realize how silly the very notion of ladder anxiety is and no "season 1 import ratings from beta/wol" will change that quite frankly. its normal that some people don't like to be judged, even in games. that's what unranked is for I said its normal, i agree, but if they can't get over it than there will likely be other similar obstacles laddering that they will face so why not accept ladder type of play isn't for them ? is not like you can't find custom matches nowadays
that's the point.jpg, Blizzard sees that the ladder type of play isn't for them, so they gives them alternatives. custom games aren't the solution because it has no matchmaking
LoL has exactly this, and it probably has exponentially more people playing on normal than rank. Most players that I know of have a ratio of 10 normal game per rank played, some even more.
and then I have the a few on friend list who touched less than 30 games ranked in an entire season of LoL with over 1k normal played
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On May 12 2012 06:52 Penecks wrote:
Having separate MMRs for both ladders introduces other problems, as the non-ranked ladder has no consequences for losing what is stopping me from insta-leaving 10~ games on unranked, and then stomping those people, and doing it again? All the while my "real" masters MMR is unaffected. It's essentially a free smurf account for an environment that is hardly competitive, and barely different from the custom game system in place now.
obscure cases, most people aren't bored enough to do this. And those that do probably don't give a crap ass about ranked ladder in the first place
custom games have NO matchmaking whatsoever, of course its not the same
On May 12 2012 05:49 Befree wrote:
I don't really plan on using it, so I guess I'd say "don't care."
Are people really that fearful of losing points? If I'm anxious about playing in a ranked 1v1 against some player, I'm still going to be anxious playing against that player 1v1 in an unranked match. The rank has nothing to do with, I want to win because I want to win, and when I lose I feel bad about losing. If it says +0 after a loss, that doesn't make me feel any less bad about losing to that player because I still lost!
I'm thinking some people are going to realize once this is released that their anxiety doesn't stem from ranked/unranked.
But anyways, even if you were afraid of someone having an unfair advantage at HotS season 1 start, and you thought you'd lose games, why would you play unranked? If you'd lose in ranked, you'll lose in unranked. If you start to win in unranked, you'd be winning in ranked too. Ranked ladder will simulate the exact same process.
For example,
Scenario 1: Let's say you start out bad and want to play unranked to improve. So you play and lose a bunch because you're bad. You continue to lose, but continue to learn also. Then eventually you start to win more because you've gotten good again, and now you rejoin ranked playing at your correct skill level.
Scenario 2: You start out bad and want to played ranked to improve. You play a lose a bunch because you're bad and your rating goes down. You continue to lose and learn while your rating drop slows down. Eventually you start to win more again because you're improving and your rating goes up. You become good again and because you've been playing ranked and winning now, your ladder rank has moved back to the correct position based on your skill.
What is the purpose of scenario 1?
Just improve your actual ability at the game, and your ladder league/points will follow. Don't waste time worrying about temporary drops in points.
some people plays this game for fun, ladder and competitive gameplay is secondary or even a detrimental factors for them, especially more true for older generation gamers.
unimaginable concept I know, who still plays games for fun in 2012.
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EPT
