• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 15:26
CET 21:26
KST 05:26
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
Weekly Cups (Dec 15-21): Classic wins big, MaxPax & Clem take weeklies3ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career !10Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win4Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2
StarCraft 2
General
The Grack before Christmas Weekly Cups (Dec 15-21): Classic wins big, MaxPax & Clem take weeklies ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career ! Micro Lags When Playing SC2? When will we find out if there are more tournament
Tourneys
$100 Prize Pool - Winter Warp Gate Masters Showdow $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Winter Warp Gate Amateur Showdown #1 RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14!
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 505 Rise From Ashes Mutation # 504 Retribution Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle soO on: FanTaSy's Potential Return to StarCraft BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Anyone remember me from 2000s Bnet EAST server?
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] LB QuarterFinals - Sunday 21:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL21] WB SEMIFINALS - Saturday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Game Theory for Starcraft Current Meta Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason Path of Exile General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream?
Blogs
The (Hidden) Drug Problem in…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1316 users

What you don't know about statistics - Page 7

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 5 6 7 All
Nokshalees
Profile Joined March 2012
United States120 Posts
May 04 2012 22:20 GMT
#121
Sure is pretentious reddit circlejerk in here. I didn't get to finish that long pretentious post because I don't think you know how statistics work.

Why not make more dramas and upboat more just to get le karma XDXD and let TL do their thing.
MKP/MVP/Kas/ThorZaiN/Jinro/ForGG | I MAEK HAE BYUNG. | #terranprideworldwide
See.Blue
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States2673 Posts
May 04 2012 22:40 GMT
#122
TL is very praetentious. Lol
Destroyr
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany299 Posts
May 04 2012 22:54 GMT
#123
Great write up thanks
taddel
Profile Joined April 2012
Germany13 Posts
May 05 2012 00:08 GMT
#124
I completely agree with the author.
To the people who think it's common sense what he wrote I have to say that there are plenty of posts on team liquid which make exactly the mistakes he mentioned.
Azarkon
Profile Joined January 2010
United States21060 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-05 00:32:48
May 05 2012 00:29 GMT
#125
On May 04 2012 09:00 Cyberonic wrote:
Drabzalver

- Fallacy: winrates indicate balance

Yes and no, for the most part, they do not indicate balance, rather, they indicate balance shifts. It's so trivial to see that it boggles me that people don't figure this out on their own. Assume that race X was actually underpowered last month and is balanced this month. This means that the X players who actually qualified last month and stayed in tournaments are actually better than the Y and Z players, therefore, now that it gets balanced, as they are overal better, they start smashing Y and Z because they are better, thereby suddenly making the graph appear as X has been 'overbuffed' or whatever else while simply the few X players that were around in the scene were better. This will continue on until the mediocre Y and Z players who were more so carried by their race than the X players get weeded out.

...

The only way to find out absolute balance is to get a random pool of pros, force them to play random, and have a round robin tournament to ensure that everyone plays the same amount of games. Very unfeasible to get enough games with that for a reasonable sample size.


It's worse than this. Your definition of balance shifts is that it varies with the distribution of better players in a month's tournaments. But it's not just players that are shifting, it's their meta-game. Say Naniwa figures out a new mothership rush style tomorrow that Zerg has no answer for. The win rate for P vs. Z during that month is going to be lopsided in favor of Protoss because all the Protoss pros are going to switch to it and crush their Zerg opponents. But then a few weeks later, Stephano figures out a three hatch mass ultra style that beats the crap out of the mothership rush. Then the pendulum swings right back and those Protoss who practiced their arses off on how to rush motherships is going to get creamed until they readjust.

Because of this, getting a random pool of pros, forcing them to play random, and having a round robin tournament to ensure that everyone plays the same amount of games is still isn't going to give you absolute balance - because the pros are going to play each race the way the meta-game tells them to play, which gives you the balance of the current meta-game but not the balance of the game.

A lot of obvious imbalances are detectable through observing lopsided match-ups and thinking through the game logic to see that the lopsidedness is due to game design and not player skill, but there is no way to figure out the absolute balance of the game without solving the game, and thereby knowing the optimal strategies in each match-up.
Chargelot
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
2275 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-05 00:45:02
May 05 2012 00:44 GMT
#126
Anyone who says "pray-tentious" is probably the most pretentious bastard alive. I don't understand why this shit has to be shared on Team Liquid. What the fuck is reddit even good for if we just discuss it all here?
if (post == "stupid") { document.getElementById('post').style.display = 'none'; }
upperbound
Profile Joined September 2011
United States2300 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-05 00:51:07
May 05 2012 00:50 GMT
#127
It's too bad the OP of the reddit thread is such a douche, because there are probably feasible ways to account for some of the statistical inaccuracy to produce "truer" results. However, the TLPD graphs are by no means useless as approximations for the true statistics and attempts to characterize them as such are probably equally misguided as carrying them as gospel.
CluEleSs_UK
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United Kingdom583 Posts
May 05 2012 01:14 GMT
#128
Kinda sad that in typical TL fashion, somebody makes an intelligent correct post, and instead of discussing it, they spend 7 pages complaining about his spelling/declaring they already knew everything he said.

Good post, well written, statistics very rarely have useful connotations in the world of Starcraft, and are reserved only for people with bogus arguments they're trying to defend.
"If it turns out he is leaving the ESL to focus on cooking crystal meth I'll agree that it is somewhat disgraceful, but I'll hold off judgement until then."
Prev 1 5 6 7 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 12h 34m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
JuggernautJason171
SpeCial 164
ProTech147
Nathanias 40
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 18159
Horang2 622
Shuttle 389
Hyun 122
NaDa 5
Dota 2
420jenkins823
LuMiX1
League of Legends
JimRising 383
Counter-Strike
fl0m1350
Other Games
Grubby3660
FrodaN1695
tarik_tv1337
Beastyqt808
ceh9469
RotterdaM336
Mew2King136
XaKoH 111
Chillindude52
ZombieGrub25
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 71
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Eskiya23 34
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV1642
Other Games
• imaqtpie1938
• Shiphtur317
• tFFMrPink 15
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
12h 34m
WardiTV Invitational
15h 34m
ByuN vs Solar
Clem vs Classic
Cure vs herO
Reynor vs MaxPax
Big Brain Bouts
1d 20h
Elazer vs Nicoract
Reynor vs Scarlett
Replay Cast
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Krystianer vs TBD
TriGGeR vs SKillous
Percival vs TBD
ByuN vs Nicoract
Replay Cast
4 days
Wardi Open
4 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-12-22
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
CSL Season 19: Qualifier 2
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
OSC Championship Season 13
Nations Cup 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.