• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 22:38
CEST 04:38
KST 11:38
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt2: News Flash10[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt1: New Chaos0Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy18ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT30Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book20
Community News
[BSL22] RO32 Group Stage1Weekly Cups (March 23-29): herO takes triple6Aligulac acquired by REPLAYMAN.com/Stego Research8Weekly Cups (March 16-22): herO doubles, Cure surprises3Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool51
StarCraft 2
General
Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool What mix of new & old maps do you want in the next ladder pool? (SC2) Aligulac acquired by REPLAYMAN.com/Stego Research
Tourneys
RSL Season 4 announced for March-April Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) WardiTV Mondays World University TeamLeague (500$+) | Signups Open
Strategy
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Frigid Storage Publishing has been re-enabled! [Feb 24th 2026]
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 520 Moving Fees Mutation # 519 Inner Power Mutation # 518 Radiation Zone
Brood War
General
ASL21 General Discussion [BSL22] RO32 Group Stage so ive been playing broodwar for a week straight. Gypsy to Korea Pros React To: JaeDong vs Queen
Tourneys
[ASL21] Ro24 Group F Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Ro24 Group E
Strategy
What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Starcraft Tabletop Miniature Game Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Darkest Dungeon
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread The Chess Thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread NASA and the Private Sector Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion Cricket [SPORT] Tokyo Olympics 2021 Thread General nutrition recommendations
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
[G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Broowar part 2
qwaykee
China Uses Video Games to Sh…
TrAiDoS
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
FS++
Kraekkling
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Electronics
mantequilla
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 12141 users

What you don't know about statistics - Page 7

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 5 6 7 All
Nokshalees
Profile Joined March 2012
United States120 Posts
May 04 2012 22:20 GMT
#121
Sure is pretentious reddit circlejerk in here. I didn't get to finish that long pretentious post because I don't think you know how statistics work.

Why not make more dramas and upboat more just to get le karma XDXD and let TL do their thing.
MKP/MVP/Kas/ThorZaiN/Jinro/ForGG | I MAEK HAE BYUNG. | #terranprideworldwide
See.Blue
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States2673 Posts
May 04 2012 22:40 GMT
#122
TL is very praetentious. Lol
Destroyr
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany299 Posts
May 04 2012 22:54 GMT
#123
Great write up thanks
taddel
Profile Joined April 2012
Germany13 Posts
May 05 2012 00:08 GMT
#124
I completely agree with the author.
To the people who think it's common sense what he wrote I have to say that there are plenty of posts on team liquid which make exactly the mistakes he mentioned.
Azarkon
Profile Joined January 2010
United States21060 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-05 00:32:48
May 05 2012 00:29 GMT
#125
On May 04 2012 09:00 Cyberonic wrote:
Drabzalver

- Fallacy: winrates indicate balance

Yes and no, for the most part, they do not indicate balance, rather, they indicate balance shifts. It's so trivial to see that it boggles me that people don't figure this out on their own. Assume that race X was actually underpowered last month and is balanced this month. This means that the X players who actually qualified last month and stayed in tournaments are actually better than the Y and Z players, therefore, now that it gets balanced, as they are overal better, they start smashing Y and Z because they are better, thereby suddenly making the graph appear as X has been 'overbuffed' or whatever else while simply the few X players that were around in the scene were better. This will continue on until the mediocre Y and Z players who were more so carried by their race than the X players get weeded out.

...

The only way to find out absolute balance is to get a random pool of pros, force them to play random, and have a round robin tournament to ensure that everyone plays the same amount of games. Very unfeasible to get enough games with that for a reasonable sample size.


It's worse than this. Your definition of balance shifts is that it varies with the distribution of better players in a month's tournaments. But it's not just players that are shifting, it's their meta-game. Say Naniwa figures out a new mothership rush style tomorrow that Zerg has no answer for. The win rate for P vs. Z during that month is going to be lopsided in favor of Protoss because all the Protoss pros are going to switch to it and crush their Zerg opponents. But then a few weeks later, Stephano figures out a three hatch mass ultra style that beats the crap out of the mothership rush. Then the pendulum swings right back and those Protoss who practiced their arses off on how to rush motherships is going to get creamed until they readjust.

Because of this, getting a random pool of pros, forcing them to play random, and having a round robin tournament to ensure that everyone plays the same amount of games is still isn't going to give you absolute balance - because the pros are going to play each race the way the meta-game tells them to play, which gives you the balance of the current meta-game but not the balance of the game.

A lot of obvious imbalances are detectable through observing lopsided match-ups and thinking through the game logic to see that the lopsidedness is due to game design and not player skill, but there is no way to figure out the absolute balance of the game without solving the game, and thereby knowing the optimal strategies in each match-up.
Chargelot
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
2275 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-05 00:45:02
May 05 2012 00:44 GMT
#126
Anyone who says "pray-tentious" is probably the most pretentious bastard alive. I don't understand why this shit has to be shared on Team Liquid. What the fuck is reddit even good for if we just discuss it all here?
if (post == "stupid") { document.getElementById('post').style.display = 'none'; }
upperbound
Profile Joined September 2011
United States2300 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-05 00:51:07
May 05 2012 00:50 GMT
#127
It's too bad the OP of the reddit thread is such a douche, because there are probably feasible ways to account for some of the statistical inaccuracy to produce "truer" results. However, the TLPD graphs are by no means useless as approximations for the true statistics and attempts to characterize them as such are probably equally misguided as carrying them as gospel.
CluEleSs_UK
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United Kingdom583 Posts
May 05 2012 01:14 GMT
#128
Kinda sad that in typical TL fashion, somebody makes an intelligent correct post, and instead of discussing it, they spend 7 pages complaining about his spelling/declaring they already knew everything he said.

Good post, well written, statistics very rarely have useful connotations in the world of Starcraft, and are reserved only for people with bogus arguments they're trying to defend.
"If it turns out he is leaving the ESL to focus on cooking crystal meth I'll agree that it is somewhat disgraceful, but I'll hold off judgement until then."
Prev 1 5 6 7 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
CranKy Ducklings
00:00
TLMC #22: Map Judging #1
CranKy Ducklings58
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RuFF_SC2 234
ROOTCatZ 60
StarCraft: Brood War
GuemChi 6004
Artosis 657
Noble 24
Dota 2
monkeys_forever901
NeuroSwarm157
League of Legends
JimRising 705
Counter-Strike
taco 485
C9.Mang0294
minikerr6
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox363
Mew2King52
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor59
Other Games
summit1g10761
tarik_tv4851
Day[9].tv417
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1189
BasetradeTV133
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 68
• CranKy Ducklings SOOP4
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Other Games
• Scarra786
• Day9tv417
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
7h 22m
PiGosaur Cup
21h 22m
Replay Cast
1d 6h
Kung Fu Cup
1d 9h
Replay Cast
1d 21h
The PondCast
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
WardiTV Team League
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Team League
4 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
BSL
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
WardiTV Team League
5 days
BSL
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Wardi Open
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Elite League 2026
RSL Revival: Season 4
NationLESS Cup

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
StarCraft2 Community Team League 2026 Spring
Nations Cup 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S2: W2
IPSL Spring 2026
Escore Tournament S2: W3
Acropolis #4
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
uThermal 2v2 Last Chance Qualifiers 2026
RSL Revival: Season 5
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
IEM Rio 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.