• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 13:35
CET 19:35
KST 03:35
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10
Community News
RSL Season 3: RO16 results & RO8 bracket9Weekly Cups (Nov 10-16): Reynor, Solar lead Zerg surge1[TLMC] Fall/Winter 2025 Ladder Map Rotation14Weekly Cups (Nov 3-9): Clem Conquers in Canada4SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA12
StarCraft 2
General
RSL Season 3: RO16 results & RO8 bracket SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview Mech is the composition that needs teleportation t GM / Master map hacker and general hacking and cheating thread
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 3 $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship Constellation Cup - Main Event - Stellar Fest 2025 RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales! Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 500 Fright night Mutation # 499 Chilling Adaptation Mutation # 498 Wheel of Misfortune|Cradle of Death Mutation # 497 Battle Haredened
Brood War
General
Data analysis on 70 million replays FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle soO on: FanTaSy's Potential Return to StarCraft [ASL20] Ask the mapmakers — Drop your questions BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL21] GosuLeague T1 Ro16 - Tue & Thu 22:00 CET [BSL21] RO16 Tie Breaker - Group B - Sun 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO16 Tie Breaker - Group A - Sat 21:00 CET
Strategy
Current Meta How to stay on top of macro? PvZ map balance Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile [Game] Osu! Should offensive tower rushing be viable in RTS games? Clair Obscur - Expedition 33 Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Games Industry And ATVI About SC2SEA.COM
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
The Health Impact of Joining…
TrAiDoS
Dyadica Evangelium — Chapt…
Hildegard
Saturation point
Uldridge
DnB/metal remix FFO Mick Go…
ImbaTosS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1952 users

What you don't know about statistics - Page 7

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 5 6 7 All
Nokshalees
Profile Joined March 2012
United States120 Posts
May 04 2012 22:20 GMT
#121
Sure is pretentious reddit circlejerk in here. I didn't get to finish that long pretentious post because I don't think you know how statistics work.

Why not make more dramas and upboat more just to get le karma XDXD and let TL do their thing.
MKP/MVP/Kas/ThorZaiN/Jinro/ForGG | I MAEK HAE BYUNG. | #terranprideworldwide
See.Blue
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States2673 Posts
May 04 2012 22:40 GMT
#122
TL is very praetentious. Lol
Destroyr
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany299 Posts
May 04 2012 22:54 GMT
#123
Great write up thanks
taddel
Profile Joined April 2012
Germany13 Posts
May 05 2012 00:08 GMT
#124
I completely agree with the author.
To the people who think it's common sense what he wrote I have to say that there are plenty of posts on team liquid which make exactly the mistakes he mentioned.
Azarkon
Profile Joined January 2010
United States21060 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-05 00:32:48
May 05 2012 00:29 GMT
#125
On May 04 2012 09:00 Cyberonic wrote:
Drabzalver

- Fallacy: winrates indicate balance

Yes and no, for the most part, they do not indicate balance, rather, they indicate balance shifts. It's so trivial to see that it boggles me that people don't figure this out on their own. Assume that race X was actually underpowered last month and is balanced this month. This means that the X players who actually qualified last month and stayed in tournaments are actually better than the Y and Z players, therefore, now that it gets balanced, as they are overal better, they start smashing Y and Z because they are better, thereby suddenly making the graph appear as X has been 'overbuffed' or whatever else while simply the few X players that were around in the scene were better. This will continue on until the mediocre Y and Z players who were more so carried by their race than the X players get weeded out.

...

The only way to find out absolute balance is to get a random pool of pros, force them to play random, and have a round robin tournament to ensure that everyone plays the same amount of games. Very unfeasible to get enough games with that for a reasonable sample size.


It's worse than this. Your definition of balance shifts is that it varies with the distribution of better players in a month's tournaments. But it's not just players that are shifting, it's their meta-game. Say Naniwa figures out a new mothership rush style tomorrow that Zerg has no answer for. The win rate for P vs. Z during that month is going to be lopsided in favor of Protoss because all the Protoss pros are going to switch to it and crush their Zerg opponents. But then a few weeks later, Stephano figures out a three hatch mass ultra style that beats the crap out of the mothership rush. Then the pendulum swings right back and those Protoss who practiced their arses off on how to rush motherships is going to get creamed until they readjust.

Because of this, getting a random pool of pros, forcing them to play random, and having a round robin tournament to ensure that everyone plays the same amount of games is still isn't going to give you absolute balance - because the pros are going to play each race the way the meta-game tells them to play, which gives you the balance of the current meta-game but not the balance of the game.

A lot of obvious imbalances are detectable through observing lopsided match-ups and thinking through the game logic to see that the lopsidedness is due to game design and not player skill, but there is no way to figure out the absolute balance of the game without solving the game, and thereby knowing the optimal strategies in each match-up.
Chargelot
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
2275 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-05 00:45:02
May 05 2012 00:44 GMT
#126
Anyone who says "pray-tentious" is probably the most pretentious bastard alive. I don't understand why this shit has to be shared on Team Liquid. What the fuck is reddit even good for if we just discuss it all here?
if (post == "stupid") { document.getElementById('post').style.display = 'none'; }
upperbound
Profile Joined September 2011
United States2300 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-05 00:51:07
May 05 2012 00:50 GMT
#127
It's too bad the OP of the reddit thread is such a douche, because there are probably feasible ways to account for some of the statistical inaccuracy to produce "truer" results. However, the TLPD graphs are by no means useless as approximations for the true statistics and attempts to characterize them as such are probably equally misguided as carrying them as gospel.
CluEleSs_UK
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United Kingdom583 Posts
May 05 2012 01:14 GMT
#128
Kinda sad that in typical TL fashion, somebody makes an intelligent correct post, and instead of discussing it, they spend 7 pages complaining about his spelling/declaring they already knew everything he said.

Good post, well written, statistics very rarely have useful connotations in the world of Starcraft, and are reserved only for people with bogus arguments they're trying to defend.
"If it turns out he is leaving the ESL to focus on cooking crystal meth I'll agree that it is somewhat disgraceful, but I'll hold off judgement until then."
Prev 1 5 6 7 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 26m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SteadfastSC 178
UpATreeSC 132
IndyStarCraft 92
mouzHeroMarine 61
MindelVK 25
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 35726
Calm 2929
Rain 2436
Sea 1703
firebathero 407
Dewaltoss 88
Hyun 72
White-Ra 56
Backho 50
yabsab 19
[ Show more ]
HiyA 18
Movie 17
scan(afreeca) 12
Shine 8
Dota 2
Gorgc5843
qojqva2446
League of Legends
rGuardiaN30
Counter-Strike
fl0m434
Other Games
FrodaN1468
ceh9727
hiko652
Beastyqt538
Mlord459
RotterdaM304
KnowMe232
ArmadaUGS213
Liquid`VortiX116
Sick99
XaKoH 68
Trikslyr65
C9.Mang051
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream16650
Other Games
BasetradeTV30
Algost 3
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• iHatsuTV 13
• Reevou 1
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• Migwel
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 26
• blackmanpl 23
• FirePhoenix8
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 1913
• WagamamaTV417
League of Legends
• TFBlade1016
Other Games
• Shiphtur245
Upcoming Events
BSL: GosuLeague
2h 26m
RSL Revival
12h 56m
Zoun vs Classic
SHIN vs TriGGeR
herO vs Reynor
Maru vs MaxPax
WardiTV Korean Royale
17h 26m
Replay Cast
1d 4h
RSL Revival
1d 12h
WardiTV Korean Royale
1d 17h
IPSL
1d 22h
Julia vs Artosis
JDConan vs DragOn
BSL 21
2 days
TerrOr vs Aeternum
HBO vs Kyrie
RSL Revival
2 days
Wardi Open
2 days
[ Show More ]
IPSL
3 days
StRyKeR vs OldBoy
Sziky vs Tarson
BSL 21
3 days
StRyKeR vs Artosis
OyAji vs KameZerg
Replay Cast
3 days
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Wardi Open
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Wardi Open
5 days
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
6 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-11-16
Stellar Fest: Constellation Cup
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
SOOP Univ League 2025
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
CSCL: Masked Kings S3
SLON Tour Season 2
RSL Revival: Season 3
META Madness #9
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.