• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 18:49
CET 00:49
KST 08:49
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT28Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book19Clem wins HomeStory Cup 289HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview13Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info8
Community News
Weekly Cups (Feb 16-22): MaxPax doubles0Weekly Cups (Feb 9-15): herO doubles up2ACS replaced by "ASL Season Open" - Starts 21/0258LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals (Feb 10-16)46Weekly Cups (Feb 2-8): Classic, Solar, MaxPax win2
StarCraft 2
General
Terran AddOns placement How do you think the 5.0.15 balance patch (Oct 2025) for StarCraft II has affected the game? Nexon's StarCraft game could be FPS, led by UMS maker ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT Oliveira Would Have Returned If EWC Continued
Tourneys
PIG STY FESTIVAL 7.0! (19 Feb - 1 Mar) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SEL Doubles (SC Evo Bimonthly) WardiTV Team League Season 10 RSL Season 4 announced for March-April
Strategy
Custom Maps
Publishing has been re-enabled! [Feb 24th 2026] Map Editor closed ?
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 515 Together Forever Mutation # 514 Ulnar New Year Mutation # 513 Attrition Warfare
Brood War
General
Soma Explains: JD's Unrelenting Aggro vs FlaSh Recent recommended BW games TvZ is the most complete match up BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ACS replaced by "ASL Season Open" - Starts 21/02
Tourneys
BWCL Season 64 Announcement The Casual Games of the Week Thread [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [LIVE] [S:21] ASL Season Open Day 1
Strategy
Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2 Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers Zealot bombing is no longer popular?
Other Games
General Games
Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread Diablo 2 thread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine UK Politics Mega-thread YouTube Thread Mexico's Drug War
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TL MMA Pick'em Pool 2013
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Laptop capable of using Photoshop Lightroom?
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
YOUTUBE VIDEO
XenOsky
Unintentional protectionism…
Uldridge
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Inside the Communication of …
TrAiDoS
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2746 users

What you don't know about statistics - Page 7

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 5 6 7 All
Nokshalees
Profile Joined March 2012
United States120 Posts
May 04 2012 22:20 GMT
#121
Sure is pretentious reddit circlejerk in here. I didn't get to finish that long pretentious post because I don't think you know how statistics work.

Why not make more dramas and upboat more just to get le karma XDXD and let TL do their thing.
MKP/MVP/Kas/ThorZaiN/Jinro/ForGG | I MAEK HAE BYUNG. | #terranprideworldwide
See.Blue
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States2673 Posts
May 04 2012 22:40 GMT
#122
TL is very praetentious. Lol
Destroyr
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany299 Posts
May 04 2012 22:54 GMT
#123
Great write up thanks
taddel
Profile Joined April 2012
Germany13 Posts
May 05 2012 00:08 GMT
#124
I completely agree with the author.
To the people who think it's common sense what he wrote I have to say that there are plenty of posts on team liquid which make exactly the mistakes he mentioned.
Azarkon
Profile Joined January 2010
United States21060 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-05 00:32:48
May 05 2012 00:29 GMT
#125
On May 04 2012 09:00 Cyberonic wrote:
Drabzalver

- Fallacy: winrates indicate balance

Yes and no, for the most part, they do not indicate balance, rather, they indicate balance shifts. It's so trivial to see that it boggles me that people don't figure this out on their own. Assume that race X was actually underpowered last month and is balanced this month. This means that the X players who actually qualified last month and stayed in tournaments are actually better than the Y and Z players, therefore, now that it gets balanced, as they are overal better, they start smashing Y and Z because they are better, thereby suddenly making the graph appear as X has been 'overbuffed' or whatever else while simply the few X players that were around in the scene were better. This will continue on until the mediocre Y and Z players who were more so carried by their race than the X players get weeded out.

...

The only way to find out absolute balance is to get a random pool of pros, force them to play random, and have a round robin tournament to ensure that everyone plays the same amount of games. Very unfeasible to get enough games with that for a reasonable sample size.


It's worse than this. Your definition of balance shifts is that it varies with the distribution of better players in a month's tournaments. But it's not just players that are shifting, it's their meta-game. Say Naniwa figures out a new mothership rush style tomorrow that Zerg has no answer for. The win rate for P vs. Z during that month is going to be lopsided in favor of Protoss because all the Protoss pros are going to switch to it and crush their Zerg opponents. But then a few weeks later, Stephano figures out a three hatch mass ultra style that beats the crap out of the mothership rush. Then the pendulum swings right back and those Protoss who practiced their arses off on how to rush motherships is going to get creamed until they readjust.

Because of this, getting a random pool of pros, forcing them to play random, and having a round robin tournament to ensure that everyone plays the same amount of games is still isn't going to give you absolute balance - because the pros are going to play each race the way the meta-game tells them to play, which gives you the balance of the current meta-game but not the balance of the game.

A lot of obvious imbalances are detectable through observing lopsided match-ups and thinking through the game logic to see that the lopsidedness is due to game design and not player skill, but there is no way to figure out the absolute balance of the game without solving the game, and thereby knowing the optimal strategies in each match-up.
Chargelot
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
2275 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-05 00:45:02
May 05 2012 00:44 GMT
#126
Anyone who says "pray-tentious" is probably the most pretentious bastard alive. I don't understand why this shit has to be shared on Team Liquid. What the fuck is reddit even good for if we just discuss it all here?
if (post == "stupid") { document.getElementById('post').style.display = 'none'; }
upperbound
Profile Joined September 2011
United States2300 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-05 00:51:07
May 05 2012 00:50 GMT
#127
It's too bad the OP of the reddit thread is such a douche, because there are probably feasible ways to account for some of the statistical inaccuracy to produce "truer" results. However, the TLPD graphs are by no means useless as approximations for the true statistics and attempts to characterize them as such are probably equally misguided as carrying them as gospel.
CluEleSs_UK
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United Kingdom583 Posts
May 05 2012 01:14 GMT
#128
Kinda sad that in typical TL fashion, somebody makes an intelligent correct post, and instead of discussing it, they spend 7 pages complaining about his spelling/declaring they already knew everything he said.

Good post, well written, statistics very rarely have useful connotations in the world of Starcraft, and are reserved only for people with bogus arguments they're trying to defend.
"If it turns out he is leaving the ESL to focus on cooking crystal meth I'll agree that it is somewhat disgraceful, but I'll hold off judgement until then."
Prev 1 5 6 7 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 9h 11m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 7617
Artosis 616
Shuttle 249
Dota 2
LuMiX1
League of Legends
JimRising 622
goblin21
Counter-Strike
Fnx 2007
Stewie2K632
taco 296
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox2323
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor294
Other Games
summit1g6756
gofns6633
Grubby3454
Liquid`RaSZi1803
Maynarde168
JuggernautJason25
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1189
Counter-Strike
PGL131
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 485
• musti20045 27
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 31
• HerbMon 15
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21368
League of Legends
• Doublelift4715
Other Games
• imaqtpie1282
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
9h 11m
Wardi Open
12h 11m
Monday Night Weeklies
17h 11m
Replay Cast
1d
Replay Cast
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
KCM Race Survival
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
[ Show More ]
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 2nd Round
LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Acropolis #4 - TS5
Jeongseon Sooper Cup
Spring Cup 2026
WardiTV Winter 2026
Nations Cup 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025

Upcoming

ASL Season 21: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 21: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 21
Acropolis #4 - TS6
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
CSLAN 4
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
RSL Revival: Season 4
NationLESS Cup
IEM Atlanta 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
FISSURE Playground #3
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.