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On April 15 2012 08:52 feardragon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 08:46 Tarz wrote: So a master vs a bronze means the master player must defeat the bronze player with workers, and once the bronze player has air units, it's GG? This is actually a really good point. I'm going to have to think about this one. Going into that, it will also really limit detection for a protoss player. Maybe no defensive structures until the 12 minute mark? I mainly want to prevent players from just cannon rushing, but I suppose if it gets to the 12 minute mark, it's going to be near impossible to win without some kind of damage dealing unit. I think that if there is a cloaked unit or an air unit, a masters player should be able to out macro the damage before they can get up the cannons against a bronzie. =] Does that sound fair?
But then again, in a diamond vs bronze matchup, the only option the diamond has is to do a defensive structure push, as the diamon player can't make any unit. I really can't see workers defeating air units, collossi or banelings... (Maybe banelings, but not the other two) No units at all seems quite extreme.
Also, the master vs gold restriction is huge for zergs and protoss, but for terrans, it seems much less restrictive.
So maybe something like, "your army supply may, at most, be equal to how many minutes the game has lasted".
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On April 15 2012 07:59 Anopob wrote: This seems pretty interesting! However I would recommend changing the masters->diamond handicap in someway, right now it seems like every attack will have to be all-in and that probably won't make for any interesting/fun games (I'm thinking for example TvZ 2rax all-in every game). Also, the 50% handicap I think is too strong, but I'm not sure how much you have tried these handicaps so nvm if you think they're okay :/
If your on EU and playing a mid-low master terran and your zerg, 90% of the time they do some sort of all in w/ SCV's, nothing changes from normal ladder.
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On April 15 2012 09:07 Tarz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 08:52 feardragon wrote:On April 15 2012 08:46 Tarz wrote: So a master vs a bronze means the master player must defeat the bronze player with workers, and once the bronze player has air units, it's GG? This is actually a really good point. I'm going to have to think about this one. Going into that, it will also really limit detection for a protoss player. Maybe no defensive structures until the 12 minute mark? I mainly want to prevent players from just cannon rushing, but I suppose if it gets to the 12 minute mark, it's going to be near impossible to win without some kind of damage dealing unit. I think that if there is a cloaked unit or an air unit, a masters player should be able to out macro the damage before they can get up the cannons against a bronzie. =] Does that sound fair? But then again, in a diamond vs bronze matchup, the only option the diamond has is to do a defensive structure push, as the diamon player can't make any unit. I really can't see workers defeating air units, collossi or banelings... (Maybe banelings, but not the other two) No units at all seems quite extreme. Also, the master vs gold restriction is huge for zergs and protoss, but for terrans, it seems much less restrictive. So maybe something like, "your army supply may, at most, be equal to how many minutes the game has lasted". I have quite a few bronze level friends and I've actually tried this restriction on myself. Honestly, it usually ends up being a pretty even game. This is as terran, Toss and Zerg. I'll definitely keep thinking about this and if I continue to receive similar feedback, I'll change it.
As for the Masters vs Gold matchup, I really like your idea. I think it works out much more eloquently than my way. Adding it!
On April 15 2012 09:19 Hiea wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 07:59 Anopob wrote: This seems pretty interesting! However I would recommend changing the masters->diamond handicap in someway, right now it seems like every attack will have to be all-in and that probably won't make for any interesting/fun games (I'm thinking for example TvZ 2rax all-in every game). Also, the 50% handicap I think is too strong, but I'm not sure how much you have tried these handicaps so nvm if you think they're okay :/ If your on EU and playing a mid-low master terran and your zerg, 90% of the time they do some sort of all in w/ SCV's, nothing changes from normal ladder. I just thought of a really interesting fix for this. How about instead of you must pull 10 workers, it becomes you must kill 10 of your own workers! It would promote longer term play since 10 workers early on is rough in comparison to late game. Thoughts?
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On April 15 2012 09:25 feardragon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 09:19 Hiea wrote:On April 15 2012 07:59 Anopob wrote: This seems pretty interesting! However I would recommend changing the masters->diamond handicap in someway, right now it seems like every attack will have to be all-in and that probably won't make for any interesting/fun games (I'm thinking for example TvZ 2rax all-in every game). Also, the 50% handicap I think is too strong, but I'm not sure how much you have tried these handicaps so nvm if you think they're okay :/ If your on EU and playing a mid-low master terran and your zerg, 90% of the time they do some sort of all in w/ SCV's, nothing changes from normal ladder. I just thought of a really interesting fix for this. How about instead of you must pull 10 workers, it becomes you must kill 10 of your own workers! It would promote longer term play since 10 workers early on is rough in comparison to late game. Thoughts?
I like it, and if the masterplayer is attacked, he must send 10 workers out to suicide. Would be a though one vs 7pool though. But hey, they are masters, they should be able to handle it!
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How do you plan to enforce these handicaps? Will you be using custom maps for this? I mean, what if a player does something -- i.e. unintentionally because he momentarily forgot -- that violates the handicap, will you as the caster spot this in time and end the game and the casting in favor of the non-handicapped player?
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Not a huge fan of the exclamation points everywhere, but that's the least of my concerns lol.
As some have already said, I think some of these are far too extreme. I think as a diamond player you should get a hold of a lower league account and try these on the ladder and see how they work.
I played in the bronze league today and tried to win with just workers. vs T, a planetary in a choke with a few scvs is literally impossible to kill. Tech to bcs on 1 base, and you win. Since you can't build any defensive structures, there's 0 protection from air, and I feel it's pretty unwinnable. I ended up winning that game by turret pushing into his main after I pretty much mined out the entire map (antiga) with about 25 orbitals and after he was completely mined out. Fair? Maybe. Fun to watch? Not in the slightest. I think this one needs reworking for sure. Playing with a severe handicap like 50% is way more fair. All in all I think the masters league handicaps are far too difficult.
Some ideas I think you should play around with: -Requiring that every building must be proxied (or at least not built in main, may or may not include gas) -A cap on workers -Disallowing of certain upgrades -Disallowing of certain units -Zerg may only produce attacking units once the attacking force is spotted (most likely from a watch tower) -If terran uses stim, they must use it twice (instead of just hitting "t", they must hit "t" "t")
Also, if you want to turn this into a more "educational" experience, you might want to consider some restrictive priority lists, for example during engagements, x player must kill units in this order (this teaches the other player to try to protect those units better).
just some thoughts, i hope this goes well
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On April 15 2012 08:36 Powster wrote: Master still easily beats a platinum player with 70% handicap. I have done multiple games vs diamonds with 70% handicap and won them all but could see how I could possibly lose at least. No way a platinum would beat me if I only had a 70% handicap (maybe with some crazy cheese though but those would be a waste to cast) ~_~ with p right? P has highest hp units and if you do timing attack your army value will almost always be higher. Try 50 or 70% as t or z vs plat / diamond 4 gate and see how it goes. Like I said, it pretty much just forces the player to play P when you go heavy on unit % handicap. Which can be a decent reason to just come up with different / more creative handicaps.
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On April 15 2012 09:43 Proseat wrote: How do you plan to enforce these handicaps? Will you be using custom maps for this? I mean, what if a player does something -- i.e. unintentionally because he momentarily forgot -- that violates the handicap, will you as the caster spot this in time and end the game and the casting in favor of the non-handicapped player?
I think I mentioned this in an earlier post, but I'm trying to make the handicaps easily enforceable in the game. Things such as, you're not allowed to make more than x supply of a unit, will be enforced by messaging the player in game(since everything will be live) and telling them they must kill off some supply. All of the handicaps should have some immediate solution in game if I announce it. Some of them might suck(like having to kill off your nexus), but I think that's fair since they did make the mistake of breaking the rules in the first place.
On April 15 2012 09:44 phiinix wrote: Not a huge fan of the exclamation points everywhere, but that's the least of my concerns lol.
As some have already said, I think some of these are far too extreme. I think as a diamond player you should get a hold of a lower league account and try these on the ladder and see how they work.
I played in the bronze league today and tried to win with just workers. vs T, a planetary in a choke with a few scvs is literally impossible to kill. Tech to bcs on 1 base, and you win. Since you can't build any defensive structures, there's 0 protection from air, and I feel it's pretty unwinnable. I ended up winning that game by turret pushing into his main after I pretty much mined out the entire map (antiga) with about 25 orbitals and after he was completely mined out. Fair? Maybe. Fun to watch? Not in the slightest. I think this one needs reworking for sure. Playing with a severe handicap like 50% is way more fair. All in all I think the masters league handicaps are far too difficult.
Some ideas I think you should play around with: -Requiring that every building must be proxied (or at least not built in main, may or may not include gas) -A cap on workers -Disallowing of certain upgrades -Disallowing of certain units -Zerg may only produce attacking units once the attacking force is spotted (most likely from a watch tower) -If terran uses stim, they must use it twice (instead of just hitting "t", they must hit "t" "t")
Also, if you want to turn this into a more "educational" experience, you might want to consider some restrictive priority lists, for example during engagements, x player must kill units in this order (this teaches the other player to try to protect those units better).
just some thoughts, i hope this goes well
Thanks for the awesome feedback. I love that you're including suggestions for other handicaps as that's really useful to me since the starting suggestions were very much limited by what I could think of myself.
I definitely get your issues with some of the bronze ones probably not being very fun to watch. That's a really good point. If the bronze player manages to get out a couple of tanks in time, it's going to be very difficult to push. I might have a "special" end condition where if the game goes past the X minute mark, the handicapped player can get Y supply of some random unit. I think I might go with that kind of fix before I toss the idea out the window. If it ends up being exactly as you say though, with no fix being found, I'll probably default to your advice and try to come up with some other handicaps. =] Thanks.
Also, I love the idea to turn it into an educational experience. I'm not sure how well the kill units in ___ order can be regulated, but the general idea of coming up with more "forced" educational experiences sounds awesome. I'm definitely going to think about that.
And I apologize for the exclamation marks. I get excited!
On April 15 2012 10:37 Nibbler89 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 08:36 Powster wrote: Master still easily beats a platinum player with 70% handicap. I have done multiple games vs diamonds with 70% handicap and won them all but could see how I could possibly lose at least. No way a platinum would beat me if I only had a 70% handicap (maybe with some crazy cheese though but those would be a waste to cast) ~_~ with p right? P has highest hp units and if you do timing attack your army value will almost always be higher. Try 50 or 70% as t or z vs plat / diamond 4 gate and see how it goes. Like I said, it pretty much just forces the player to play P when you go heavy on unit % handicap. Which can be a decent reason to just come up with different / more creative handicaps. I think I'm going to try it out with a 50% handicap vs plat. I see your point with protoss being favored, but I think it might be a bit more balanced than you think. If it ends up not working out, I will definitely try and rebalance the handicap. And of course, if there's another better handicap that can be suggested, feel free to post it!
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It's a really awesome idea. Although it seems pretty difficult to fine tune the various handicaps, don't get discouraged. It's just for fun, anyway, and I'd love to participate
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50% cap with zerg dies by any mid-level plat terran/toss with 2 rax/ ffe 6 gate. seiged tanks 1 shot literally every unit in zerg save the ultralisk and the queen (maybe hydra lives).
-I think a cool handicap would be no upgrades for units (No speedlings, blink, colo range etc.) for plat vs masters
-80% cap is a reasonable handicap for 2 league differences usually.(when i play with my friends who are about 2 leagues down, but still very tough for zerg players.)
-No rally points set for units (Protoss can't warp in outside of base). Masters vs diamond? Diamond vs plat?
-Expos must be one hex off is not much of a handicap (It's about only a marginal income deficit on expos.)
-Terrans must only mech vs protoss, and must only bio vs zerg. Protoss must only air vs terran, and must only gateway-army vs zerg. Zerg must only get ranged units vs terran (roach/hydra/queen/muta/corrouptor/ NO BL since broodlings are melee), may not have queens vs protoss.
-You must declare in a poetic fashion that you are about to attack 1 minute before you move out.
-The opponent is told by the referee that certain major structures/(techs are being placed) every 1 minutes. e.g. "he's planting down a roach warren now. He's getting speed." "he's getting a 7 pool." "4 rax placed."
just my humble potential suggestions :S
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Near leagues, silver/gold: Can only move army in dropships unless it's between your own bases. So any large attack would have to wait until a large number of ships are made. Wouldn't be a huge detriment to Terran if they're going bio though.
Close leagues, plat/silver maybe: One handicap could be to force a player to get a "useless" upgrade before attack/expand. Forces them to spend gas/time. Terran must get Medivac energy upgrade before expanding for example. Or must have 2-0 air upgrades....and can't build air units. Something like that.
Far leagues, plat/bronze: Must expand to opponents side of the map (most maps it should be obvious). Cannot build defensive structures at expansions. Spreads out their army, making it easier for attacks. Or, can only have one tech structure in your main base...so one rax/gate/pool in the main. Rest must be built elsewhere. Kinda sucks for Zerg...but would force creep spread over larva if they want to tech up at all.
I would say for most matchups, you might want to include "no lifting to retreat" if the higher player is Terran. I'd say anything out of 1 league level should have this. It would stop the ever fun game of "whack-a-rax" :D And unless you're going to call GG on games, it would keep the bronze player from lifting to the corner against the masters who can't build units.
It sounds interesting, if I can I'll try to show up. If not, hope there will be some VODs somewhere
[EDIT] Put in better order
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the entire handicap structure needs to be COMPLETELY redone, IMO...
if any masters / diamond players enter this tourney, they are screwed against anyone in or under gold league... seriously?
Army supply cannot be over the amount of minutes passed? any sort of attack whatsoever will kill them, period. think about it... 15 minutes, 15 marines?
Masters -> Bronze... you may not produce units? wtf?
I like the idea, but the handicaps are fucking horrible.
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On April 15 2012 11:08 jubil wrote: It's a really awesome idea. Although it seems pretty difficult to fine tune the various handicaps, don't get discouraged. It's just for fun, anyway, and I'd love to participate Thanks! I won't be. I'll be casting even if two people show up!
On April 15 2012 11:09 rauk wrote: ravi hwaiting Hi Ying! <3
On April 15 2012 11:24 mikiao wrote: Near leagues, silver/gold: Can only move army in dropships unless it's between your own bases. So any large attack would have to wait until a large number of ships are made. Wouldn't be a huge detriment to Terran if they're going bio though.
Close leagues, plat/silver maybe: One handicap could be to force a player to get a "useless" upgrade before attack/expand. Forces them to spend gas/time. Terran must get Medivac energy upgrade before expanding for example. Or must have 2-0 air upgrades....and can't build air units. Something like that.
Far leagues, plat/bronze: Must expand to opponents side of the map (most maps it should be obvious). Cannot build defensive structures at expansions. Spreads out their army, making it easier for attacks. Or, can only have one tech structure in your main base...so one rax/gate/pool in the main. Rest must be built elsewhere. Kinda sucks for Zerg...but would force creep spread over larva if they want to tech up at all.
I would say for most matchups, you might want to include "no lifting to retreat" if the higher player is Terran. I'd say anything out of 1 league level should have this. It would stop the ever fun game of "whack-a-rax" :D And unless you're going to call GG on games, it would keep the bronze player from lifting to the corner against the masters who can't build units.
It sounds interesting, if I can I'll try to show up. If not, hope there will be some VODs somewhere
[EDIT] Put in better order I thought about the dropship idea but I wasn't sure how well it would work out. and for which matchup. There was also that same issue with Terran not really having much impairment whereas a Protoss would have a HUGE impairment(getting 30 supply in warp prisms late game?). I love the idea though and if there's another cool way to make it work, let me know!
The "useless" upgrade idea is a neat one, but I think it's a bit harder to enforce and imposes unexpected restrictions. Let's say a protoss gets +2 air weapons....but later in the game wants to get some stargate units. Are they not allowed to get it anymore? There also would be some issues with running out of "useless upgrades" and arbitrary definitions for "useless." I like the general sentiment of doing something unnecessary though, so maybe we can build something off of that!
As for the "no lifting to retreat", you bring up a really good point. I think what I might end up doing is having some kind of vote from chat on if the game is over or if the game's ending is just getting delayed, obviously with myself getting the final say. It will kinda suck to have that arbitrary rule in place, but since it's free entry and mostly for fun and potentially very small amounts of money, I don't think it'll be an issue. Thanks for pointing that out though.
Lastly, there will definitely be vods over on my youtube channel! http://www.youtube.com/feardragon64
On April 15 2012 11:21 desarrisc wrote: 50% cap with zerg dies by any mid-level plat terran/toss with 2 rax/ ffe 6 gate. seiged tanks 1 shot literally every unit in zerg save the ultralisk and the queen (maybe hydra lives).
-I think a cool handicap would be no upgrades for units (No speedlings, blink, colo range etc.) for plat vs masters
-80% cap is a reasonable handicap for 2 league differences usually.(when i play with my friends who are about 2 leagues down, but still very tough for zerg players.)
-No rally points set for units (Protoss can't warp in outside of base). Masters vs diamond? Diamond vs plat?
-Expos must be one hex off is not much of a handicap (It's about only a marginal income deficit on expos.)
-Terrans must only mech vs protoss, and must only bio vs zerg. Protoss must only air vs terran, and must only gateway-army vs zerg. Zerg must only get ranged units vs terran (roach/hydra/queen/muta/corrouptor/ NO BL since broodlings are melee), may not have queens vs protoss.
-You must declare in a poetic fashion that you are about to attack 1 minute before you move out.
-The opponent is told by the referee that certain major structures/(techs are being placed) every 1 minutes. e.g. "he's planting down a roach warren now. He's getting speed." "he's getting a 7 pool." "4 rax placed."
just my humble potential suggestions :S
Thanks for the ideas! I think I've gotten a substantial enough amount of feedback disliking the 50% handicap idea so I'm just going to replace it with your fabulous no upgrades idea. I think this will be a pretty interesting(and awesome) impairment seeing as Protoss won't have warpgate, thermal lance, psy storm, etc. Zerg won't have speedlings, speed roaches, armor upgrades, etc. Terran won't have stim, combat shields, concussive, cloak for banshee, etc. That sounds like a pretty fun game.
I do like your other suggestions but enforcement seems like it'll be a bit of an issue. I think the other handicap I really like is having the "maphack" announcements. I'm going to have to look into seeing if there's a way I can just straight up give someone vision. Awesome idea!
Keep the ideas coming guys! Thanks for all of them. Hopefully by the time of the event, we can have a rule list that people will feel is relatively fair and fun. =]
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NA only!? Sounds epic tho haha. I might buy an NA account just to participate ^^
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Your army supply may, at most, be equal to how many minutes the game has lasted
Did I get that wrong? 15 minutes into the game, you're stuck with 15 marines / 7 stalkers or somesuch? Wouldn't that be worse than the silver requirement of 20 army supply since most games don't last 20 minutes?
You must attack move engagements and type a poem whenever a battle occurs!
This one is awesome :D
Good luck with the tournament.
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Most of these handicaps are awesome. Please keep them. The big picture: You're doing a good job.
Nevertheless, the changes I personally would make:
Masters vs. Bronze, Diamond vs. Bronze: I know how HUGE the handicap has to be to make this battle an actual battle, but what you're doing is fundamentally restricting the player's ability to play the game AT ALL. What I would recommend here is sharply reducing their ability to play the game in the core elements of micro and macro, but still let them fight.
Masters vs. Bronze: "You may only have one worker per minute, plus your additional six workers. Attack-move all engagements."
Diamond vs. Bronze: "See Masters vs. Bronze, however you may cast exactly two spells during each engagement."
Masters vs. Gold: "You may only have army supply equal to double the minutes on the game clock."
Diamond vs. Gold: "Your expansions must be two hexes off."
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Seems awesome, though the Plat/dia/masters vs Bronze ones are a bit... off. I mean what if it's a zerg and they just 6-pool? Any bronze can 6-pool. Also Masters vs Gold. Protoss, any protoss can get their 4-gate to hit before 7 minutes, and with only 7 army supply.... what?
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This sounds like fun and I may join in. My suggestion is a restrictioin that you can't use MULES, Chronoboost, or Injections
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As much as I love this concept, some of these handicaps are beyond broken and just ridiculous. Like, "no defensive structures or units until the 12 minute mark", it doesn't matter if it's Master vs Bronze, your opponent knows of your handicaps, he can just litterally six pool and keep building lings for 10 minutes before a-clicking >.>
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