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On March 23 2011 05:46 waffleduck wrote:
They should just make it so an SCV is required to salvage the bunker. Lets terran maintain a movable defense and makes it so they cant salvage a failed bunker rush.
I really like this idea, still allows 'free' bunkers for terran defence but prevents salvaging completely abandoned bunkers.
Also, don't remove MULES just add a cooldown so terran have to remember to drop them on time, just like zerg must remember to inject and toss must chronoboost correctly.
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On March 23 2011 05:37 dave333 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 05:30 p1cKLes wrote:
Every single race has a cheese opening like this? It’s not just Terran. Protoss and their cannon rush. Zerg and 6 pool. Terran and bunker rush. All of which can be stopped if you scout like you are suppose to. lmao are you saying 6 pool compares to a 2 rax bunker rush? funniest (and dumbest thing) i've heard in the past week. 2 rax bunker rush ISN'T cheese right now. It automatically does damage by its very nature and does not leave the terran player behind at all; he gets to build rines, build scvs, and still get an expo up. There's nothing allinish or cheesy about it right now in terms of its execution, even though bunker rush should be cheese. 6 pool is lol, if you don't kill them you lose. cannon rushing isn't guaranteed to do damage, and it delays your tech/expo/makes you vulnerable to other sorts of all ins (see nydus). You can't truly punish/stop a 2 rax bunker rush because by its nature, to stop it, it requires you do build crawlers/pull drones/make lings or delay your expo. Right there it has done its job. It can go on to actually kill the zerg and deal further damage, all while things move right along smoothly at home thanks to mules. and then they can salvage their bunkers when they're done. 6 pools and cannons rushes are a joke compared to that; if toss/zerg had a "cheesy" build this good, it would become standard, just like 2 rax bunker rushes. This "cheese" build is just so good and so rewarding that it is now standard, not cheese. There's virtually no risk, and the reward can be straight up winning the game. No other race has a "cheese" build like that.
You know what, good points. Minus your side comment of dumbest thing you've heard. I'm intelligent enough to understand logic without childish comments.
The one thing that I tend to disagree with when it comes to other players is the early expo with zerg. I understand that Zerg has to early expand because of the dynamics of Zerg, but I also believe that any race regardless of dynamics should have some sort of penality when they decide to go early expansion within the first 2 minutes of the game. In my mind, its a risk that either pays for itself or doesn't. With the bunker rush, to kill the expo it seems like you took the risk and now have to pay the price.
However, you definitely have valid points overall when it comes to not having to suffer nearly as bad as you might when you do a six pool or cannon rush.
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On March 23 2011 05:52 pedalpusher wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 05:46 waffleduck wrote:
They should just make it so an SCV is required to salvage the bunker. Lets terran maintain a movable defense and makes it so they cant salvage a failed bunker rush. I really like this idea, still allows 'free' bunkers for terran defence but prevents salvaging completely abandoned bunkers. Also, don't remove MULES just add a cooldown so terran have to remember to drop them on time, just like zerg must remember to inject and toss must chronoboost correctly.
i call bs on the part with the mules..
how about zergs that can build 2 hatchery's and support it with 1 queen to inject?
and how about toss being able to chronoboost multiple different buildings at the same time..?..
bad suggestion imo
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So does anyone else have the glitch where when you exit a ladder game the 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 and FFA option are gone. I have to either just click around a bit, which only sometimes works, otherwise it just reveals a few options forcing me to relog. Pretty annoying when I'm grinding ladder.
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On March 23 2011 05:38 Dente wrote:
To all those protoss players who complain about the fact that "they have to make collossae": we terrans HAVE to make marauders in tvp. Go anything else then MMM and you die so hard. Ofcourse I will get quoted and the answers will be like this:
"lol you are so wrong, you can go mech, look jinro" --> No, mech doesn't work vs protoss, except on small maps like steppes.
"lol no, you can do marine - tank" --> No, dies to collo / HT
"lol no, you can do the marine tank banshee raven allin" --> ALLIN, yes.
I want you to take a deep breath, and say that again. Did you just compare a tier 1 unit to a tier 3 unit?
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On March 23 2011 05:52 pedalpusher wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 05:46 waffleduck wrote:
They should just make it so an SCV is required to salvage the bunker. Lets terran maintain a movable defense and makes it so they cant salvage a failed bunker rush. I really like this idea, still allows 'free' bunkers for terran defence but prevents salvaging completely abandoned bunkers. Also, don't remove MULES just add a cooldown so terran have to remember to drop them on time, just like zerg must remember to inject and toss must chronoboost correctly.
The SCV requirement to salvage a bunker is interesting. Not sure what I think of it yet, though I generally have a negative view of salvaged bunkers.
But I wanted to mention, about the MULE cooldown, I used to think that it was a good idea, but the fact is, the usual argument for that change is that "Terran doesn't suffer when they forget." But they actually do. If you try to macro as Terran, forgetting a MULE almost always results in a round or two of bad macro.
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On March 23 2011 05:53 p1cKLes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 05:37 dave333 wrote:On March 23 2011 05:30 p1cKLes wrote:
Every single race has a cheese opening like this? It’s not just Terran. Protoss and their cannon rush. Zerg and 6 pool. Terran and bunker rush. All of which can be stopped if you scout like you are suppose to. lmao are you saying 6 pool compares to a 2 rax bunker rush? funniest (and dumbest thing) i've heard in the past week. 2 rax bunker rush ISN'T cheese right now. It automatically does damage by its very nature and does not leave the terran player behind at all; he gets to build rines, build scvs, and still get an expo up. There's nothing allinish or cheesy about it right now in terms of its execution, even though bunker rush should be cheese. 6 pool is lol, if you don't kill them you lose. cannon rushing isn't guaranteed to do damage, and it delays your tech/expo/makes you vulnerable to other sorts of all ins (see nydus). You can't truly punish/stop a 2 rax bunker rush because by its nature, to stop it, it requires you do build crawlers/pull drones/make lings or delay your expo. Right there it has done its job. It can go on to actually kill the zerg and deal further damage, all while things move right along smoothly at home thanks to mules. and then they can salvage their bunkers when they're done. 6 pools and cannons rushes are a joke compared to that; if toss/zerg had a "cheesy" build this good, it would become standard, just like 2 rax bunker rushes. This "cheese" build is just so good and so rewarding that it is now standard, not cheese. There's virtually no risk, and the reward can be straight up winning the game. No other race has a "cheese" build like that. You know what, good points. Minus your side comment of dumbest thing you've heard. I'm intelligent enough to understand logic without childish comments. The one thing that I tend to disagree with when it comes to other players is the early expo with zerg. I understand that Zerg has to early expand because of the dynamics of Zerg, but I also believe that any race regardless of dynamics should have some sort of penality when they decide to go early expansion within the first 2 minutes of the game. In my mind, its a risk that either pays for itself or doesn't. With the bunker rush, to kill the expo it seems like you took the risk and now have to pay the price. However, you definitely have valid points overall when it comes to not having to suffer nearly as bad as you might when you do a six pool or cannon rush.
Apologies about the childish comments. I'm just sick of terrans who claim that 2 rax bunker rushing isn't a ridiculous thing.
Anyway here's the thing; hatch first does have a weakness, and that weakness is cheese. That is why bunker rushing works; it's cheese and cheese punishes hatch first. It always has, in BW and SC2 before 2 rax rushes.
Now the problem here is this; this certain cheese actually isn't cheese because the terran doesn't sacrifice anything for it! There's no sacrifice on the terrans part when they do a 2 rax. And that is the real problem of 2 raxing. Cheese has a high reward, but also a risk. This supposedly cheesy thing has high reward, but no risk.
And there you see a fundamental problem with this build.
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On March 23 2011 05:59 Dromar wrote:
The SCV requirement to salvage a bunker is interesting. Not sure what I think of it yet, though I generally have a negative view of salvaged bunkers.
But I wanted to mention, about the MULE cooldown, I used to think that it was a good idea, but the fact is, the usual argument for that change is that "Terran doesn't suffer when they forget." But they actually do. If you try to macro as Terran, forgetting a MULE almost always results in a round or two of bad macro.
the problem is not if terran forgets mules but that terran can drain a Gold Base so quick it is not funny. more than twice the income with half number of the SCVs just makes no sense.
That needs to be fixed sooner or later.
i mean Terran already gets additional income due to oversaturation, but now each mule also gains increased efficiency by alot, Terran is already a mineral Heavy race the sheer amound of T1 units he can afford and throw at you is just not balanced.
Holding a Gold Base should be a "risk" but terran no where has such a Risk PF reduce that risk alot, + the fast drain by Mules reduce the time your at risk.
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On March 23 2011 05:58 CanucksJC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 05:38 Dente wrote:
To all those protoss players who complain about the fact that "they have to make collossae": we terrans HAVE to make marauders in tvp. Go anything else then MMM and you die so hard. Ofcourse I will get quoted and the answers will be like this:
"lol you are so wrong, you can go mech, look jinro" --> No, mech doesn't work vs protoss, except on small maps like steppes.
"lol no, you can do marine - tank" --> No, dies to collo / HT
"lol no, you can do the marine tank banshee raven allin" --> ALLIN, yes. I want you to take a deep breath, and say that again. Did you just compare a tier 1 unit to a tier 3 unit?
It would be nice if terran actually had a good tier 3 unit. Mech in tvz is IMPOSSIBLE. Mass muta's just roll over it. Mech in tvp is IMPOSSIBLE. What good tier 3 unit do terrans have? We HAVE to rely on boring MMM play. There is a reason why every topplayer with success is going MMM every game. It's funny how some people think they do it because "they are too lazy"...
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On March 23 2011 03:43 Adonisto wrote:
It seems like the sound bug on the PTR is now on the retail too. When you spam in the beginning of a game and select rapidly your workers the sound effect is bugged. It's not a big thing but I hope they fix it.
I have this same issue too and it's annoying pls fix >.<
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On March 23 2011 06:01 dave333 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 05:53 p1cKLes wrote:On March 23 2011 05:37 dave333 wrote:On March 23 2011 05:30 p1cKLes wrote:
Every single race has a cheese opening like this? It’s not just Terran. Protoss and their cannon rush. Zerg and 6 pool. Terran and bunker rush. All of which can be stopped if you scout like you are suppose to. lmao are you saying 6 pool compares to a 2 rax bunker rush? funniest (and dumbest thing) i've heard in the past week. 2 rax bunker rush ISN'T cheese right now. It automatically does damage by its very nature and does not leave the terran player behind at all; he gets to build rines, build scvs, and still get an expo up. There's nothing allinish or cheesy about it right now in terms of its execution, even though bunker rush should be cheese. 6 pool is lol, if you don't kill them you lose. cannon rushing isn't guaranteed to do damage, and it delays your tech/expo/makes you vulnerable to other sorts of all ins (see nydus). You can't truly punish/stop a 2 rax bunker rush because by its nature, to stop it, it requires you do build crawlers/pull drones/make lings or delay your expo. Right there it has done its job. It can go on to actually kill the zerg and deal further damage, all while things move right along smoothly at home thanks to mules. and then they can salvage their bunkers when they're done. 6 pools and cannons rushes are a joke compared to that; if toss/zerg had a "cheesy" build this good, it would become standard, just like 2 rax bunker rushes. This "cheese" build is just so good and so rewarding that it is now standard, not cheese. There's virtually no risk, and the reward can be straight up winning the game. No other race has a "cheese" build like that. You know what, good points. Minus your side comment of dumbest thing you've heard. I'm intelligent enough to understand logic without childish comments. The one thing that I tend to disagree with when it comes to other players is the early expo with zerg. I understand that Zerg has to early expand because of the dynamics of Zerg, but I also believe that any race regardless of dynamics should have some sort of penality when they decide to go early expansion within the first 2 minutes of the game. In my mind, its a risk that either pays for itself or doesn't. With the bunker rush, to kill the expo it seems like you took the risk and now have to pay the price. However, you definitely have valid points overall when it comes to not having to suffer nearly as bad as you might when you do a six pool or cannon rush. Apologies about the childish comments. I'm just sick of terrans who claim that 2 rax bunker rushing isn't a ridiculous thing. Anyway here's the thing; hatch first does have a weakness, and that weakness is cheese. That is why bunker rushing works; it's cheese and cheese punishes hatch first. It always has, in BW and SC2 before 2 rax rushes. Now the problem here is this; this certain cheese actually isn't cheese because the terran doesn't sacrifice anything for it! There's no sacrifice on the terrans part when they do a 2 rax. And that is the real problem of 2 raxing. Cheese has a high reward, but also a risk. This supposedly cheesy thing has high reward, but no risk. And there you see a fundamental problem with this build.
No problem : ), and I definitely see your point. I'm a Terran player and I get it, and... actually to a certain extent I agree. P&Z - High risk, high reward. T - Low risk, high reward.
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On March 23 2011 05:53 p1cKLes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 05:37 dave333 wrote:On March 23 2011 05:30 p1cKLes wrote:
Every single race has a cheese opening like this? It’s not just Terran. Protoss and their cannon rush. Zerg and 6 pool. Terran and bunker rush. All of which can be stopped if you scout like you are suppose to. lmao are you saying 6 pool compares to a 2 rax bunker rush? funniest (and dumbest thing) i've heard in the past week. 2 rax bunker rush ISN'T cheese right now. It automatically does damage by its very nature and does not leave the terran player behind at all; he gets to build rines, build scvs, and still get an expo up. There's nothing allinish or cheesy about it right now in terms of its execution, even though bunker rush should be cheese. 6 pool is lol, if you don't kill them you lose. cannon rushing isn't guaranteed to do damage, and it delays your tech/expo/makes you vulnerable to other sorts of all ins (see nydus). You can't truly punish/stop a 2 rax bunker rush because by its nature, to stop it, it requires you do build crawlers/pull drones/make lings or delay your expo. Right there it has done its job. It can go on to actually kill the zerg and deal further damage, all while things move right along smoothly at home thanks to mules. and then they can salvage their bunkers when they're done. 6 pools and cannons rushes are a joke compared to that; if toss/zerg had a "cheesy" build this good, it would become standard, just like 2 rax bunker rushes. This "cheese" build is just so good and so rewarding that it is now standard, not cheese. There's virtually no risk, and the reward can be straight up winning the game. No other race has a "cheese" build like that. You know what, good points. Minus your side comment of dumbest thing you've heard. I'm intelligent enough to understand logic without childish comments. The one thing that I tend to disagree with when it comes to other players is the early expo with zerg. I understand that Zerg has to early expand because of the dynamics of Zerg, but I also believe that any race regardless of dynamics should have some sort of penality when they decide to go early expansion within the first 2 minutes of the game. In my mind, its a risk that either pays for itself or doesn't. With the bunker rush, to kill the expo it seems like you took the risk and now have to pay the price. However, you definitely have valid points overall when it comes to not having to suffer nearly as bad as you might when you do a six pool or cannon rush.
This statement would only be valid if bunker rushing was particularly risky. But it isn't so I don't understand this at all.
You realize if you took your first statements logically they say "People should be penalized for playing zerg."
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On March 23 2011 05:50 dave333 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 05:46 Dente wrote:On March 23 2011 05:41 sjschmidt93 wrote:
On bunkers and bunker rushes:
I would either nerf the MULE or remove salvage.
The nerfing of the MULE would punish Terran forbringing SCV's (whether it's 3 or 4 or the crazy 10+ all-in) It would make it so that terran can't stay close in income to zergs while having far less drones.
And salvage means you don't have to spend anything to do this. No mules? This means that the terran his economy will be much weaker. Good luck fighting protoss with that. Do you actually understand that both protoss and zerg can make alot more workers then the terran can? You ever fought against a 2base agressive zerg with terran? Do you ever play tvp? Please think before you post such crazyness. Bunkers shouldn't be refunded 100%. That's where the problem is. He's not saying no mules, he's saying nerf them. Mules are incredibly strong right now; once you get a few OCs, or if you snag a PF at the gold expansion, marines basically become free thanks to mules. The strength of the mule is that it gives terran surplus minerals; in ZvT the terran can essentially trade minerals for gas by forcing lots of banelings with their rines/tanks. Mules let you pull scvs so easily to go in with the attack at virtually no cost. Salvage's silliness speaks for itself. ^the buff of the rine just mixes perfectly with everything else terran got. Marines got move-shot, faster firing rate (even with the stim "nerf", it's still unbelievably fast, its like marking up the price of furniture then putting a fat discount on it claiming there's a sale), more hp, medivacs so you can stuff 8 rines into a dropship and still let them heal, smart fire tanks, clumping, bunkers you can salvage, mules that make rines free, reactors, etc. It was a perfect storm of factors that turned rines into what they are. And now AOE damage is basically the only thing that stops them from demolishing everything; the game is essentially centered around area of effect damage right now.
AoE is not more powerful than in BW. The biggest problem Blizzard has with Terran is they decided to move Terran away from mech and into bio. TvT and TvP in BW is all about mech. Even in TvZ, players would sometimes transition to mech lategame.
Even with smart firing, tanks are less cost efficient than in BW. They're more expensive and are 3 supply instead of 2. The lack of spider mines, more expensive turrets and weaker "science vessel" in the raven just compounds the problem. To compensate, Blizzard buffed the bio units. However, that strength comes out too early in the game compared to mech, which is the primary cause of all these problems they have.
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On March 23 2011 06:02 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 05:59 Dromar wrote:
The SCV requirement to salvage a bunker is interesting. Not sure what I think of it yet, though I generally have a negative view of salvaged bunkers.
But I wanted to mention, about the MULE cooldown, I used to think that it was a good idea, but the fact is, the usual argument for that change is that "Terran doesn't suffer when they forget." But they actually do. If you try to macro as Terran, forgetting a MULE almost always results in a round or two of bad macro. the problem is not if terran forgets mules but that terran can drain a Gold Base so quick it is not funny. more than twice the income with half number of the SCVs just makes no sense. That needs to be fixed sooner or later. i mean Terran already gets additional income due to oversaturation, but now each mule also gains increased efficiency by alot, Terran is already a mineral Heavy race the sheer amound of T1 units he can afford and throw at you is just not balanced. Holding a Gold Base should be a "risk" but terran no where has such a Risk PF reduce that risk alot, + the fast drain by Mules reduce the time your at risk.
Well, that is a good point. As maps are right now, I feel like gold bases benefit Terran more than the other races. But I feel like that's more a complaint about PF than MULE.
edit: maybe a small problem with PF @ gold made much bigger by MULEs.
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On March 23 2011 06:09 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 05:53 p1cKLes wrote:On March 23 2011 05:37 dave333 wrote:On March 23 2011 05:30 p1cKLes wrote:
Every single race has a cheese opening like this? It’s not just Terran. Protoss and their cannon rush. Zerg and 6 pool. Terran and bunker rush. All of which can be stopped if you scout like you are suppose to. lmao are you saying 6 pool compares to a 2 rax bunker rush? funniest (and dumbest thing) i've heard in the past week. 2 rax bunker rush ISN'T cheese right now. It automatically does damage by its very nature and does not leave the terran player behind at all; he gets to build rines, build scvs, and still get an expo up. There's nothing allinish or cheesy about it right now in terms of its execution, even though bunker rush should be cheese. 6 pool is lol, if you don't kill them you lose. cannon rushing isn't guaranteed to do damage, and it delays your tech/expo/makes you vulnerable to other sorts of all ins (see nydus). You can't truly punish/stop a 2 rax bunker rush because by its nature, to stop it, it requires you do build crawlers/pull drones/make lings or delay your expo. Right there it has done its job. It can go on to actually kill the zerg and deal further damage, all while things move right along smoothly at home thanks to mules. and then they can salvage their bunkers when they're done. 6 pools and cannons rushes are a joke compared to that; if toss/zerg had a "cheesy" build this good, it would become standard, just like 2 rax bunker rushes. This "cheese" build is just so good and so rewarding that it is now standard, not cheese. There's virtually no risk, and the reward can be straight up winning the game. No other race has a "cheese" build like that. You know what, good points. Minus your side comment of dumbest thing you've heard. I'm intelligent enough to understand logic without childish comments. The one thing that I tend to disagree with when it comes to other players is the early expo with zerg. I understand that Zerg has to early expand because of the dynamics of Zerg, but I also believe that any race regardless of dynamics should have some sort of penality when they decide to go early expansion within the first 2 minutes of the game. In my mind, its a risk that either pays for itself or doesn't. With the bunker rush, to kill the expo it seems like you took the risk and now have to pay the price. However, you definitely have valid points overall when it comes to not having to suffer nearly as bad as you might when you do a six pool or cannon rush. This statement would only be valid if bunker rushing was particularly risky. But it isn't so I don't understand this at all. You realize if you took your first statements logically they say "People should be penalized for playing zerg."
What? I'm not understanding anything you're saying?And how you came to the conclusion that people should be penalized for playing zerg is beyond me. The only thing I can think of is, as you can tell you are coming in on a conversation that has been going back and forth, which may be where the disconnect is.
As I said, after a gentelman was nice enough to explain it to me, that I understand and agree that there is NO risk with the bunker rush vs a cannon or 6 pool.
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On March 23 2011 05:58 CanucksJC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 05:38 Dente wrote:
To all those protoss players who complain about the fact that "they have to make collossae": we terrans HAVE to make marauders in tvp. Go anything else then MMM and you die so hard. Ofcourse I will get quoted and the answers will be like this:
"lol you are so wrong, you can go mech, look jinro" --> No, mech doesn't work vs protoss, except on small maps like steppes.
"lol no, you can do marine - tank" --> No, dies to collo / HT
"lol no, you can do the marine tank banshee raven allin" --> ALLIN, yes. I want you to take a deep breath, and say that again. Did you just compare a tier 1 unit to a tier 3 unit?
Quiet that sounds like logic.
Well there goes the san zenith templar battles. Probably going to result in shorter games and it probably should also have a positive effect on QxC's game. Can't believe they actually went through with this crap.
Some insipid responses by the usual race -.- Atleast MC 4gate should be absolutely brutal now.
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Whens the patch hitting EU?
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On March 23 2011 05:57 GummyZerg wrote:
So does anyone else have the glitch where when you exit a ladder game the 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 and FFA option are gone. I have to either just click around a bit, which only sometimes works, otherwise it just reveals a few options forcing me to relog. Pretty annoying when I'm grinding ladder.
Yeah, it's been happening quite a bit. I usually just wait a few moments then everything restores back.
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On March 23 2011 05:35 Newguy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 05:28 hitman133 wrote:On March 23 2011 05:17 Newguy wrote:
Protoss who complain about templar nerfs need to realize a few things. First, they are still incredibly strong in late game, as they take up very little supply, considering the buff they add to the protoss army.
Another consideration. We all want there to be a larger skill gap and more room for improvement. The KA change provides that, to some degree. Instead of just a moving and constantly warping in templar to instant storm, protoss now need to think ahead, spread their templar so they can't be emped as easily, and execute late game battles with precision and finesse. Maybe this change will make protoss be more careful with units in the lategame, so we don't see the "blagghhh my tightly clumped army attack you now" mentality at the highest levels. you need to play protoss, then edit your post again bro. Why Terran don't split up their units but Protoss should? B/c EMP does insane damage, can't imagine protoss w/o shield die to marauders with just 1 shot. No guardian shield, no FFs, no shield, no storms, nothing. And fewer supplies ? Are you sure when gateways units are 2 supplies, and Colossus are 6 when all Terran need is 1 marines, 2 marauder, 2 for vikings and medivac and ghost ? Ghost is the most interesting unit in the game that Terran players are just too lazy to exploit it. bro I have played protoss at the highest levels. Some terran don't split up their army, but good terrans spread units and/or attack in a wide arc. You can avoid the emp problem if you just have your templar in a warp prism, he won't have vikings if you open immortal + gateway units, and this negates emp. And yes protoss is far more cost effective in lategame, supply-wise, templar are the best units in the game.
Sorry but I don't think you know what are you talking about. And your highest level must be top 50 platinum to me bro.
Seeing immortals mean robot opening and 70% sure colossus follow up. And why should I keep my HTs in warp prism -____-
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OH THANK GOD
A new menu option is available in the Gameplay page to change the behavior of Control Group Buttons. These can now be set to ignore mouse clicks or be hidden completely.
I hated misclicking that row of useless buttons and getting my control groups all messed up.
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EPT
