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United States32485 Posts
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United States32485 Posts
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Such a lazy OP, pulling everything from liquipedia
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aaah the region locked tournaments are on once more
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Elazer lategame still not that great. edit: but good enough it seems.
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Milkicow maruing himself
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I will never understand this endless round robin group format. Do people actually enjoy them?
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On May 20 2021 08:09 QOGQOG wrote: I will never understand this endless round robin group format. Do people actually enjoy them? Well the Players certainly do not enjoy them.... I actually like them from a Viewing Perspektive, because the results build up, like a Mini league. I still would prefer if each group would Play out in like 2 days instead, as it would be way less stressfull for the players
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On May 20 2021 15:07 dbRic1203 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2021 08:09 QOGQOG wrote: I will never understand this endless round robin group format. Do people actually enjoy them? Well the Players certainly do not enjoy them.... I actually like them from a Viewing Perspektive, because the results build up, like a Mini league. I still would prefer if each group would Play out in like 2 days instead, as it would be way less stressfull for the players
Playing like Code S-style where all the 32 players grouping into 8 different groups at different time will give ample time for each player to prepare for any build against their opponent.
I think the old traditional format feel much more comfortable than this rushing round robin group format.
It is online format after all, so I don't think scheduling should be an issue even it may takes a month long to finish that.
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On May 20 2021 15:07 dbRic1203 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2021 08:09 QOGQOG wrote: I will never understand this endless round robin group format. Do people actually enjoy them? Well the Players certainly do not enjoy them.... I actually like them from a Viewing Perspektive, because the results build up, like a Mini league. I still would prefer if each group would Play out in like 2 days instead, as it would be way less stressfull for the players I guess I can see that appeal kinda, it's just like... impossible to watch. It's purely checking liquipedia for interesting results and usually not getting any.
28 matches per group means 56 to 84 games, for all 2:0 or all 2:1. Or a total of 102-168 games for NA, 204-336 for EU, just for this group stage. For comparison, there were only 118 games in all of the last GSL, and that played out over a month.
No one can watch them all, no one can broadcast them all, no one can commentate them all. I'm amazed players manage to play them all. It's insane. And for what? Qualifier part two of three for the Season Finals?
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On May 20 2021 08:09 QOGQOG wrote: I will never understand this endless round robin group format. Do people actually enjoy them?
I actually enjoy it! As I like the WTL format
My ideal tournament would be inspired by the Italian Serie A of football: round robin bo2s (one map chosen by each player, 2 points for winning the opposite map, 1 for your own). Then the top 8 by points would do a single elimination bracket with the obtained seeding. (I think wardi did something similar once, can't remember for sure)
I feel it would bring out a lot of creative builds where a lesser technical player could beat a champion contender out of strategy and not mean his downfall.
Of course this would be a very long tournament for 16 (or even 24) players and I understand why they would have problems organising it. And maybe most people would not be interested in a weekly appointment in which sometimes just one match is not a steamroll!
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Personally I don't mind the format, but I can see why it can be difficult to follow for the casual audience and just a bit overwhelming in general.
I'd be fine with a change to it tho just because the player criticism seems very reasonable and there's definitely aspects that could be improved for the player experience
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I'm not a fan of this format either, I'm just not interested in all of these players to watch these huge groups spread out over so many days
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This format should be good for mid-tier and upcoming players as they have more matches to show more accurately how their skill level compares to others. Thus I like it but it should feel more like a league than a group stage. The problem is the boring one sided matches that happen as top players face the lesser players.
These matched should probably be spread over longer time show that the matches could seem bit more important because there isn't another match next day. This would allow more preparation and potential to surprises, but on other hand the boring one sided matches would become more apparent as there would not be other matches that may deliver better.
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wow big congrats to JimRising :D
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I'm usually just watching some of the playoffs and the season finale. Even if I had time, it's just not interesting for me. But I can see how this format gives new/ up and coming players more exposure
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On May 20 2021 00:51 Argonauta wrote: aaah the region locked tournaments are on once more
One of the region locked tournaments is already finished. Rogue won it. But only because the reigning World champ couldn't even participate
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On May 21 2021 18:31 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2021 00:51 Argonauta wrote: aaah the region locked tournaments are on once more One of the region locked tournaments is already finished. Rogue won it. But only because the reigning World champ couldn't even participate GSL is open for foreigner, its NOT region-locked, because Special is still playing in it while doing ESL DH LA. Try to be correct next time.
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On May 21 2021 20:45 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2021 18:31 Harris1st wrote:On May 20 2021 00:51 Argonauta wrote: aaah the region locked tournaments are on once more One of the region locked tournaments is already finished. Rogue won it. But only because the reigning World champ couldn't even participate GSL is open for foreigner, its NOT region-locked, because Special is still playing in it while doing ESL DH LA. Try to be correct next time.
But Korea was (is?) region locked. Nice try though
EDIT: I don't know the intricacies of who is allowed what and have no idea how Special managed to get to Korea (or did he stay there all the time?) I'm mostly trolling the troll comment from Argonauta
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shield battery on the high ground really paid off there
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those lifts were sick by ButAlways
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Showtime threw this game so hard.
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Yesterday, the first message I saw on the twitch chat was the one of an entitled terran fan (and there is only T who can say such stuff) saying the sc2 dev should be threw into a flamethrower because skillous beats Mlord. And cherry on the cake, nathanias, one of the best representant of this terran elitism who considers every zerg and protoss as "autistic" on stream is commenting on the english stream today. The older I get, the more fed up I get with this manchild attitude who is very well accepted on 1/3 of this rather old community. I don't follow a lot of games, very few actually but the tft is so much healthier and chill while the average age is most likely inferior.
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Northern Ireland20710 Posts
On May 22 2021 01:30 stilt wrote: Yesterday, the first message I saw on the twitch chat was the one of an entitled terran fan (and there is only T who can say such stuff) saying the sc2 dev should be threw into a flamethrower because skillous beats Mlord. And cherry on the cake, nathanias, one of the best representant of this terran elitism who considers every zerg and protoss as "autistic" on stream is commenting on the english stream today. The older I get, the more fed up I get with this manchild attitude who is very well accepted on 1/3 of this rather old community. I don't follow a lot of games, very few actually but the tft is so much healthier and chill while the average age is most likely inferior.
Looking at Twitch chat was your first mistake.
I’m inclined to agree, although obviously it’s not a Terran exclusive thing by any means, I think many buy into the ‘oh Terran is the hardest race I’m such a martyr’ shtick.
It is exceedingly annoying though, I agree. I wanna have interesting discussions about the game with folks who point things out or angles that I’ve missed, not just listen to people moaning incessantly about balance or spamming emotes.
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quite entertaining this pvp
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On May 22 2021 01:30 stilt wrote: Yesterday, the first message I saw on the twitch chat was the one of an entitled terran fan (and there is only T who can say such stuff) saying the sc2 dev should be threw into a flamethrower because skillous beats Mlord. And cherry on the cake, nathanias, one of the best representant of this terran elitism who considers every zerg and protoss as "autistic" on stream is commenting on the english stream today. The older I get, the more fed up I get with this manchild attitude who is very well accepted on 1/3 of this rather old community. I don't follow a lot of games, very few actually but the tft is so much healthier and chill while the average age is most likely inferior.
I'll quit casting SC2 forever if you can provide evidence that I refer to others with such vile language you put in "quotations" from me. Glad you're enjoying the rest of the games though
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On May 22 2021 01:30 stilt wrote: Yesterday, the first message I saw on the twitch chat was the one of an entitled terran fan (and there is only T who can say such stuff) saying the sc2 dev should be threw into a flamethrower because skillous beats Mlord. And cherry on the cake, nathanias, one of the best representant of this terran elitism who considers every zerg and protoss asb"autistic" on stream is commenting on the english stream today. The older I get, the more fed up I get with this manchild attitude who is very well accepted on 1/3 of this rather old community. I don't follow a lot of games, very few actually but the tft is so much healthier and chill while the average age is most likely inferior.
don't accuse other people of using this type of language please, if they did say that show evidence otherwise you're just making them look bad.
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Clem @ 1.06 loses. Feelsbadman.
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So awesome to hear ToD cast again :D wish he did it alot more
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On May 29 2021 03:57 SmoKim wrote:So awesome to hear ToD cast again :D wish he did it alot more why did he stop? I know he's a WC3 player to heart but he stopped so suddenly
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On May 29 2021 05:59 AzAlexZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2021 03:57 SmoKim wrote:So awesome to hear ToD cast again :D wish he did it alot more why did he stop? I know he's a WC3 player to heart but he stopped so suddenly
Tournaments hired other people to cast their events. I don't think he chose to stop or anything like that.
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Is every foreign tournament going to be 50% protoss from now on?
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How do Neeb and Scarlett manage to always end up in these situations?
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On May 30 2021 07:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote: How do Neeb and Scarlett manage to always end up in these situations?
They just can't let each other go
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On May 30 2021 07:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote: How do Neeb and Scarlett manage to always end up in these situations?
Late game skytoss is a winning position for protoss. Of course Neeb would want to enter that position whenever he can
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On May 30 2021 07:52 warnull wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2021 07:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote: How do Neeb and Scarlett manage to always end up in these situations? Late game skytoss is a winning position for protoss. Of course Neeb would want to enter that position whenever he can
Sure, and Neeb loves his skytoss. But even so there's lots of ways a game can end before then, and I don't think any other pair of players end up in hour long games as often.
Worst thing is that this series barely matters--both of them are going straight to the semis regardless. I guess they are playing to most likely avoid Astrea.
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Neeb making a statement, not losing a single map in this group stage, though tbf it's NA but still
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On May 30 2021 07:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Worst thing is that this series barely matters--both of them are going straight to the semis regardless. I guess they are playing to most likely avoid Astrea.
With regards to Scarlett's chances of winning Dreamhack NA, the Scarlett vs Neeb group stage match might actually be the most important of the entire tournament. It's not just that winning vs Neeb allows Scarlett to play an easier opponent than Astrea in the semis. The bigger factor is that by having Astrea play Neeb in the semis, there's a chance for Neeb to lose to Astrea and drop down to the lower bracket. If this happens then Scarlett only has to play Neeb once in the Grand Finals, instead of both the UB Finals and GF, making it much easier for Scarlett to win DH NA.
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Why is purelegacy allowed to play in this tournament? He has a very... illustrious history of maphacking, rampant chat abuse, and ladder MMR manipulation (albeit on the team ladders which we don't really care about). Extremely disappointed by the decision to allow him to play, as it sends precisely the wrong message to his awful cadre of 4.5k mmr griefers.
Watching him get dunked on by Pili is satisfying, and his excuse of being hungover is just the delicious cherry on top of a freshly baked salt cake.
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Very cool series just now on the b stream. Uthermal twice with the advantage from the early games getting sick fights against Reynor. But then lost game 1 because he ran into lurkers and baneling drops carrying reynor in the 2nd one. Hes been having more trouble beating Thermy lately compared to last year. Doesnt bode well if he wants to start winning v clem again.
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nice looking bracket.
Maxpax facing Serral in the first match
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On May 30 2021 15:19 sudete wrote: Why is purelegacy allowed to play in this tournament? He has a very... illustrious history of maphacking, rampant chat abuse, and ladder MMR manipulation (albeit on the team ladders which we don't really care about). Extremely disappointed by the decision to allow him to play, as it sends precisely the wrong message to his awful cadre of 4.5k mmr griefers.
Watching him get dunked on by Pili is satisfying, and his excuse of being hungover is just the delicious cherry on top of a freshly baked salt cake. Yeah, it's a shame that this piece of trash is allowed to make anything from SC2 honestly.
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Canada8763 Posts
Nina-Future was very much an NA series, but rather enjoyable.
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Scarlett is playing PROTOSS vs Namshar on B stream https://www.twitch.tv/esl_sc2b
Just won game 1 with glaive adept into skytoss
Edit: Scarlett won 2-1 vs Namshar with Protoss, in one of the most entertaining matches I've seen. In Game 3 Scarlett made Protoss look downright unfair and abusive, with her void ray/adept/mothership play.
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so elazer was one map win away from giving us clem serral reynor in the upper half of the winners bracket, that would've been spicy
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On May 31 2021 03:26 ilax300 wrote: Very cool series just now on the b stream. Uthermal twice with the advantage from the early games getting sick fights against Reynor. But then lost game 1 because he ran into lurkers and baneling drops carrying reynor in the 2nd one. Hes been having more trouble beating Thermy lately compared to last year. Doesnt bode well if he wants to start winning v clem again. Reynor might just switch to Protoss the next time he plays against Terran.
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Time almost lost his throne. Incredible close series.
Lambo playing quite impressive in EU, only losing games to Serral. Hope he can keep it up
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France12466 Posts
No love for our european players? HeroMarine seemed in control g1. He looked in superb shape during group stages but Lambo looked strong as well and iirc had very good performances in the WTL, so I was a bit worried.
Only saw g2 & g3 of Serral but he kinda smashed Maxpax. If Reynor is still not at his usual level i'd favor Serral / Clem and HeroMarine for the tournament, especially since HM has shown he can beat Clem in bo5.
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On June 02 2021 01:34 Poopi wrote:
Only saw g2 & g3 of Serral but he kinda smashed Maxpax.. dont worry you didnt miss anything in game1 except for the rare beckett apperance but that was about it :p
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Can't believe we have a player like Clem where the tougher bracket luck is being in the same bracket as heromarine as compared to Serral and Reynor.
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France12466 Posts
On June 02 2021 03:32 royalroadweed wrote: Can't believe we have a player like Clem where the tougher bracket luck is being in the same bracket as heromarine as compared to Serral and Reynor. It's often the case with TvT, since the match-up is slightly less mechanically demanding, being mechanically dominant doesn't always grant you the win. Also why his TvZ is his best match-up I would guess, because here otoh it rewards you big time
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it is always a little bit of a heartbreaking moment... so many good players, so few spots...
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I'm not trying to be ignorant but where are the Koreans?
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On June 02 2021 16:49 TearsOfTheSun_ wrote: I'm not trying to be ignorant but where are the Koreans?
Playing in GSL for seeds: ESL Pro Tour/2021/22/Masters/Summer/KR
Dreamhack Masters are split into regions (Europe, North America, China, Taiwan/Asia, SEA, Latin America) where the winners/top placement meet in the Season Finals. The 6 Koreans will be Trap, Maru, Rogue, Dream, Zest and INnoVation: ESL Pro Tour/2021/22/Masters/Summer
On topic: Some sick, sick matches comming up! Serral vs Reynor, Clem vs HeRoMaRinE in the uppper bracket and a ton of awesome games in lowerbracket too. Hypuuuuu!!!
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On June 02 2021 17:29 SmoKim wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2021 16:49 TearsOfTheSun_ wrote: I'm not trying to be ignorant but where are the Koreans? Playing in GSL for seeds: ESL Pro Tour/2021/22/Masters/Summer/KRDreamhack Masters are split into regions (Europe, North America, China, Taiwan/Asia, SEA, Latin America) where the winners/top placement meet in the Season Finals. The 6 Koreans will be Trap, Maru, Rogue, Dream, Zest and INnoVation: ESL Pro Tour/2021/22/Masters/SummerOn topic: Some sick, sick matches comming up! Serral vs Reynor, Clem vs HeRoMaRinE in the uppper bracket and a ton of awesome games in lowerbracket too. Hypuuuuu!!!
tyvm
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Soul looks way weaker than usual today. Pretty impressed with Skillous right now
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In modern PvP it does feel like almost every unit has its niche which is nice.
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Great series between Harstem vs Showtime!
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GunGfu is one of the 'new' old players he was much more popular in HOTS but left the scene and is back in full force now
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On June 03 2021 03:00 AzAlexZ wrote: GunGfu is one of the 'new' old players he was much more popular in HOTS but left the scene and is back in full force now Was he ever truely gone though? As far as I understand, he s just playing on/off, depending on his real life job
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Love hearing MaxPax interview. 16 old and already kicking ass
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Fun games between Vindicta and Nina. Nothing pristine from any side and that is probably a nice way to put it (you could feel the pressure hitting the both of them hard at some points), but a lot of fun.
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On June 04 2021 06:10 [PkF] Wire wrote: Fun games between Vindicta and Nina. Nothing pristine from any side and that is probably a nice way to put it (you could feel the pressure hitting the both of them hard at some points), but a lot of fun.
Yeah there were the most interesting so far today. A bit frustrated with Vindicta's fear of Nina, I think he could have won the series if he was more confident.
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On June 04 2021 06:13 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2021 06:10 [PkF] Wire wrote: Fun games between Vindicta and Nina. Nothing pristine from any side and that is probably a nice way to put it (you could feel the pressure hitting the both of them hard at some points), but a lot of fun. Yeah there were the most interesting so far today. A bit frustrated with Vindicta's fear of Nina, I think he could have won the series if he was more confident. I was pretty sure he had tricked her in the last game with quite an amazing multi-pronged attack, but he ended up getting ahead of himself and butchered it ; quite a shame because I would have liked to see a g5 between them. Otherwise yeah, I agree Vindicta took too cautious an approach, but I think he will learn quite a lot from how the series went
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On June 04 2021 06:19 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2021 06:13 Argonauta wrote:On June 04 2021 06:10 [PkF] Wire wrote: Fun games between Vindicta and Nina. Nothing pristine from any side and that is probably a nice way to put it (you could feel the pressure hitting the both of them hard at some points), but a lot of fun. Yeah there were the most interesting so far today. A bit frustrated with Vindicta's fear of Nina, I think he could have won the series if he was more confident. I was pretty sure he had tricked her in the last game with quite an amazing multi-pronged attack, but he ended up getting ahead of himself and butchered it ; quite a shame because I would have liked to see a g5 between them. Otherwise yeah, I agree Vindicta took too cautious an approach, but I think he will learn quite a lot from how the series went
Hope so, NA scene needs a solid T now that Masa is a bit retired.
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EU truly is the region of no surprises. Players are nicely divided according to what you expect. In the upper bracket Reynor, Serral, Clem, Big Gabe. In the lower bracket MaxPax, Elazer, Showtime, Lambo.
Those are clearly the top two tiers of EU sc2. Only Heromarine could have switched places with one of the others.
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On June 04 2021 16:42 sneakyfox wrote: EU truly is the region of no surprises. Players are nicely divided according to what you expect. In the upper bracket Reynor, Serral, Clem, Big Gabe. In the lower bracket MaxPax, Elazer, Showtime, Lambo.
Those are clearly the top two tiers of EU sc2. Only Heromarine could have switched places with one of the others. Yeah I was thinking the same thing early today as well These are the clear top 8 in EU.
In top 12 and further down it s a bit messy with uThermal, Gerald or Vanya underperforming a bit to what I expected or DNS punching way above his usual weight though
E.: is it just me who has this fanfiction, that right now Showtime is practising with Elazer and MaxPax with Lambo? It would make perfect sense in my head at least
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Canada8763 Posts
On June 04 2021 17:04 dbRic1203 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2021 16:42 sneakyfox wrote: EU truly is the region of no surprises. Players are nicely divided according to what you expect. In the upper bracket Reynor, Serral, Clem, Big Gabe. In the lower bracket MaxPax, Elazer, Showtime, Lambo.
Those are clearly the top two tiers of EU sc2. Only Heromarine could have switched places with one of the others. Yeah I was thinking the same thing early today as well These are the clear top 8 in EU. In top 12 and further down it s a bit messy with uThermal, Gerald or Vanya underperforming a bit to what I expected or DNS punching way above his usual weight though E.: is it just me who has this fanfiction, that right now Showtime is practising with Elazer and MaxPax with Lambo? It would make perfect sense in my head at least
That depend, define "practising" and I'll tell you if it fit my Showtime fanfic.
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On June 04 2021 20:24 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2021 17:04 dbRic1203 wrote:On June 04 2021 16:42 sneakyfox wrote: EU truly is the region of no surprises. Players are nicely divided according to what you expect. In the upper bracket Reynor, Serral, Clem, Big Gabe. In the lower bracket MaxPax, Elazer, Showtime, Lambo.
Those are clearly the top two tiers of EU sc2. Only Heromarine could have switched places with one of the others. Yeah I was thinking the same thing early today as well These are the clear top 8 in EU. In top 12 and further down it s a bit messy with uThermal, Gerald or Vanya underperforming a bit to what I expected or DNS punching way above his usual weight though E.: is it just me who has this fanfiction, that right now Showtime is practising with Elazer and MaxPax with Lambo? It would make perfect sense in my head at least That depend, define "practising" and I'll tell you if it fit my Showtime fanfic. I m not sure, if I want to hear yours then But I was referring to tons of custom games
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Canada8763 Posts
On June 04 2021 21:57 dbRic1203 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2021 20:24 Nakajin wrote:On June 04 2021 17:04 dbRic1203 wrote:On June 04 2021 16:42 sneakyfox wrote: EU truly is the region of no surprises. Players are nicely divided according to what you expect. In the upper bracket Reynor, Serral, Clem, Big Gabe. In the lower bracket MaxPax, Elazer, Showtime, Lambo.
Those are clearly the top two tiers of EU sc2. Only Heromarine could have switched places with one of the others. Yeah I was thinking the same thing early today as well These are the clear top 8 in EU. In top 12 and further down it s a bit messy with uThermal, Gerald or Vanya underperforming a bit to what I expected or DNS punching way above his usual weight though E.: is it just me who has this fanfiction, that right now Showtime is practising with Elazer and MaxPax with Lambo? It would make perfect sense in my head at least That depend, define "practising" and I'll tell you if it fit my Showtime fanfic. I m not sure, if I want to hear yours then But I was referring to tons of custom games
Oh he does lots of "custom" games in my fanfic if you know what I mean...
But for real, I don't know if Max Pax is the kind of guy to do 1 on 1 practice, he seems a bit shy (on the account that no one has ever seen or heard him).
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Wow, what a Game 2 from MaxPax!
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On June 04 2021 16:42 sneakyfox wrote: EU truly is the region of no surprises. Players are nicely divided according to what you expect. In the upper bracket Reynor, Serral, Clem, Big Gabe. In the lower bracket MaxPax, Elazer, Showtime, Lambo.
Those are clearly the top two tiers of EU sc2. Only Heromarine could have switched places with one of the others.
It's the non-Korean scene in general. Only there do you get tournaments (e.g. 2019 WCS Fall) where almost the entire tournament could have been predicted from the start by WCS points alone (some bracket randomness did mean that Heromarine as number 6 did prevent Showtime as number 8 to make the top 8).
This level of stratification is pretty boring.
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On June 05 2021 01:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2021 16:42 sneakyfox wrote: EU truly is the region of no surprises. Players are nicely divided according to what you expect. In the upper bracket Reynor, Serral, Clem, Big Gabe. In the lower bracket MaxPax, Elazer, Showtime, Lambo.
Those are clearly the top two tiers of EU sc2. Only Heromarine could have switched places with one of the others. It's the non-Korean scene in general. Only there do you get tournaments (e.g. 2019 WCS Fall) where almost the entire tournament could have been predicted from the start by WCS points alone (some bracket randomness did mean that Heromarine as number 6 did prevent Showtime as number 8 to make the top 8). This level of stratification is pretty boring. Yeah, it's a pretty boring scene and it's nothing new alas. I recall I made some stats for myself back in 2017 I think, and the different top 8s were made up by 12 unique players over the 4 WCS tournaments in that year
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On June 05 2021 01:55 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2021 01:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On June 04 2021 16:42 sneakyfox wrote: EU truly is the region of no surprises. Players are nicely divided according to what you expect. In the upper bracket Reynor, Serral, Clem, Big Gabe. In the lower bracket MaxPax, Elazer, Showtime, Lambo.
Those are clearly the top two tiers of EU sc2. Only Heromarine could have switched places with one of the others. It's the non-Korean scene in general. Only there do you get tournaments (e.g. 2019 WCS Fall) where almost the entire tournament could have been predicted from the start by WCS points alone (some bracket randomness did mean that Heromarine as number 6 did prevent Showtime as number 8 to make the top 8). This level of stratification is pretty boring. Yeah, it's a pretty boring scene and it's nothing new alas. I recall I made some stats for myself back in 2017 I think, and the different top 8s were made up by 12 unique players over the 4 WCS tournaments in that year
Yup, some players do get better and crawl into higher echelons (Clem, MaxPax), but even that happens gradually. I really have no idea how there's so few upsets in the WCS/ESL proper events. It feels like the player who's 70-30 favoured wins 90% of the time.
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On June 05 2021 01:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2021 16:42 sneakyfox wrote: EU truly is the region of no surprises. Players are nicely divided according to what you expect. In the upper bracket Reynor, Serral, Clem, Big Gabe. In the lower bracket MaxPax, Elazer, Showtime, Lambo.
Those are clearly the top two tiers of EU sc2. Only Heromarine could have switched places with one of the others. It's the non-Korean scene in general. Only there do you get tournaments (e.g. 2019 WCS Fall) where almost the entire tournament could have been predicted from the start by WCS points alone (some bracket randomness did mean that Heromarine as number 6 did prevent Showtime as number 8 to make the top 8). This level of stratification is pretty boring. Well, its improving continuously though. Remember how Serral dominate everything in 2018 and early 2019? Then Reynor jump out and challenge Serral in 2019, and then Clem stepped up to fight both of them in 2020 and now we have MaxPax raising quickly through the rank. I think its pretty exciting comparing to before. And to be honest, I dont think the KR scence will be that much more exciting where Rogue/Trap/Maru will probably always be in the top 4 minus any major upset. Then we get the rest of the players fighting to that Ro4 spot like Inno/Cure/Zest...
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Signature Showtime killer instinct.
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On June 05 2021 01:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2021 16:42 sneakyfox wrote: EU truly is the region of no surprises. Players are nicely divided according to what you expect. In the upper bracket Reynor, Serral, Clem, Big Gabe. In the lower bracket MaxPax, Elazer, Showtime, Lambo.
Those are clearly the top two tiers of EU sc2. Only Heromarine could have switched places with one of the others. It's the non-Korean scene in general. Only there do you get tournaments (e.g. 2019 WCS Fall) where almost the entire tournament could have been predicted from the start by WCS points alone (some bracket randomness did mean that Heromarine as number 6 did prevent Showtime as number 8 to make the top 8). This level of stratification is pretty boring. I think it has something to do with the european approach of (almost) always going for straight up macro games instead of the more aggressive korean style. Hard to upset someone when you just play standard every game
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Wow that was shockingly awful positioning from Showtime.
On June 05 2021 02:02 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2021 01:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On June 04 2021 16:42 sneakyfox wrote: EU truly is the region of no surprises. Players are nicely divided according to what you expect. In the upper bracket Reynor, Serral, Clem, Big Gabe. In the lower bracket MaxPax, Elazer, Showtime, Lambo.
Those are clearly the top two tiers of EU sc2. Only Heromarine could have switched places with one of the others. It's the non-Korean scene in general. Only there do you get tournaments (e.g. 2019 WCS Fall) where almost the entire tournament could have been predicted from the start by WCS points alone (some bracket randomness did mean that Heromarine as number 6 did prevent Showtime as number 8 to make the top 8). This level of stratification is pretty boring. Well, its improving continuously though. Remember how Serral dominate everything in 2018 and early 2019? Then Reynor jump out and challenge Serral in 2019, and then Clem stepped up to fight both of them in 2020 and now we have MaxPax raising quickly through the rank. I think its pretty exciting comparing to before. And to be honest, I dont think the KR scence will be that much more exciting where Rogue/Trap/Maru will probably always be in the top 4 minus any major upset. Then we get the rest of the players fighting to that Ro4 spot like Inno/Cure/Zest...
KR just has a lot more runs from weaker players. Like you see sOs or Dream or Zoun make a top 4. Meanwhile in the non-Korean scene that happens a lot less--players perform at the level you expect them to, and rarely are able to beat players that are better than them on paper.
edit: Marinelord made one last year, but apart from that it's Heromarine that gets fourth and (Clem, Serral, Reynor) that get top three every time.
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Those 2 Series so far were absolutly awsome I must say. Would be even better, if Max survived into the Top 6, but this is still a remarkable result for him. Can t wait for Next and TSL
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On June 05 2021 02:02 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2021 01:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On June 04 2021 16:42 sneakyfox wrote: EU truly is the region of no surprises. Players are nicely divided according to what you expect. In the upper bracket Reynor, Serral, Clem, Big Gabe. In the lower bracket MaxPax, Elazer, Showtime, Lambo.
Those are clearly the top two tiers of EU sc2. Only Heromarine could have switched places with one of the others. It's the non-Korean scene in general. Only there do you get tournaments (e.g. 2019 WCS Fall) where almost the entire tournament could have been predicted from the start by WCS points alone (some bracket randomness did mean that Heromarine as number 6 did prevent Showtime as number 8 to make the top 8). This level of stratification is pretty boring. And to be honest, I dont think the KR scence will be that much more exciting where Rogue/Trap/Maru will probably always be in the top 4 minus any major upset. Then we get the rest of the players fighting to that Ro4 spot like Inno/Cure/Zest... Replace Rogue with Dark. Rogue doesn't get to the ro4 that often, it's only when he does, he ends up winning
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On June 05 2021 02:02 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2021 01:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On June 04 2021 16:42 sneakyfox wrote: EU truly is the region of no surprises. Players are nicely divided according to what you expect. In the upper bracket Reynor, Serral, Clem, Big Gabe. In the lower bracket MaxPax, Elazer, Showtime, Lambo.
Those are clearly the top two tiers of EU sc2. Only Heromarine could have switched places with one of the others. It's the non-Korean scene in general. Only there do you get tournaments (e.g. 2019 WCS Fall) where almost the entire tournament could have been predicted from the start by WCS points alone (some bracket randomness did mean that Heromarine as number 6 did prevent Showtime as number 8 to make the top 8). This level of stratification is pretty boring. Well, its improving continuously though. Remember how Serral dominate everything in 2018 and early 2019? Then Reynor jump out and challenge Serral in 2019, and then Clem stepped up to fight both of them in 2020 and now we have MaxPax raising quickly through the rank. I think its pretty exciting comparing to before. And to be honest, I dont think the KR scence will be that much more exciting where Rogue/Trap/Maru will probably always be in the top 4 minus any major upset. Then we get the rest of the players fighting to that Ro4 spot like Inno/Cure/Zest... You're predicting consistency from Rogue? Good luck with that.
Korea has players like Armani and Zoun making surprise deep runs and other inconsistently great players like Bunny, Parting, and Dream (probably others I'm not thinking of) who could put something together and become top players. And with the exception of Trap, the current top players are pretty inconsistent.
While EU and NA aren't as bad as Latam or China, they are still pretty straightforward. While I think MaxPax is overhyped, it's not surprising that he is because people want someone new (especially a rare good EU Protoss) to enter the fight. The rise of Clem has at least made EU watchable rather than the "Serral vs Reynor is the only match that matters" setup it was before, but region locking a relatively small esport will inevitably result in these sorts of forgone conclusion tournaments.
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EU scene has been extremely stable, I actually think the person most likely to break the Serral/Reynor/Clem triumvirate right now is Heromarine. Heromarine has stopped being boringly consistent lately, he's had a few above average performances (mainly making it out of his group in Katowice) and has been destroying other players in the second tier of EU players this tournament. I still think Serral/Reynor/Clem are going to win all of the EU events this year though. Getting an upset against Serral/Reynor is going to be a lot harder than beating Clem in TvT of course.
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On June 05 2021 02:29 dysenterymd wrote: EU scene has been extremely stable, I actually think the person most likely to break the Serral/Reynor/Clem triumvirate right now is Heromarine. Heromarine has stopped being boringly consistent lately, he's had a few above average performances (mainly making it out of his group in Katowice) and has been destroying other players in the second tier of EU players this tournament. I still think Serral/Reynor/Clem are going to win all of the EU events this year though. Getting an upset against Serral/Reynor is going to be a lot harder than beating Clem in TvT of course. HeRoMaRinE thrives in online play. I feel that he needs to win right now... when matches are offline again he may struggle.
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On June 05 2021 02:29 dysenterymd wrote: EU scene has been extremely stable, I actually think the person most likely to break the Serral/Reynor/Clem triumvirate right now is Heromarine. Heromarine has stopped being boringly consistent lately, he's had a few above average performances (mainly making it out of his group in Katowice) and has been destroying other players in the second tier of EU players this tournament. I still think Serral/Reynor/Clem are going to win all of the EU events this year though. Getting an upset against Serral/Reynor is going to be a lot harder than beating Clem in TvT of course.
He is quite clearly been the fourth best player in Europe for a while now, so it's pretty logical that he'd be the most likely to break into the top 3, but I'm having a hard time believing in his chances. Crushing every other player in Europe seems to mean very little given his (probably undeserved) reputation of always beating players worse than him while losing to those better than him.
edit: He does have a golden opportunity in the upcoming TvT against Clem though.
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Is Reynor just better than Serral now in terms of H2H? Can't remember the last time Serral won vs him
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On June 05 2021 03:17 AzAlexZ wrote: Is Reynor just better than Serral now in terms of H2H? Can't remember the last time Serral won vs him
As mentioned by the casters Serral won their last encounter in the TSL qualifiers. But apart from that Reynor has really had his number.
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2021 03:19 Xamo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2021 03:17 AzAlexZ wrote: Is Reynor just better than Serral now in terms of H2H? Can't remember the last time Serral won vs him ... the group stage of this tournament ... ? They weren't in the same group?
Edit: lol Edit 2: This kid Reynor is just too good
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Serral is clearly in a good mindstate atm. However he still hasnt figured out how to play against Raynor. His downfall is his faith to his scouting, which in any other case is top tier. However, nowadays especially Raynor has learned to fool Serral with certain info and almost always doing the other stuff instead. And ZvZ being so fast and hectic, you cant do much emergenzy holds, altough Serral tends to be excellent in those too. When Serral has been winning against Raynor, it many times has been because he has taken lead in the game. Whenever he is doing the basic - Lets get to endgame through roaches - he just seems to lose, because Raynor has 30 builds planned to prevent that or go there with big lead. And still, Serral is trying to go for that at least 50% of the games. Of course, thats nothing to take off from Raynor. Excellent mindgames and runbys, keeping Serral always on his toes and not sure what to expect. And of course very good execution also. Casters said that last time Serral won by all-inning Raynor a lot. Not saying that it should be the only solution, but I think he has to mix it up more and the most important thing; have clear plans for every single map to execute and even do some "stupid" builds occasionally.
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Feels strange to see a 19 minute TvT where neither player started building a bunch of ravens.
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Rotti with the shades in the preview saying Disk improve by playing in the EU server xDD
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Canada8763 Posts
Nooo, Disk
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so fun to read twitch chat on how Toss is soooo OP, and here we are. top six. 0 toss. And people still things toss are the race that is way OP.... well well....
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On June 05 2021 02:16 QOGQOG wrote: Korea has players like Armani and Zoun making surprise deep runs and other inconsistently great players like Bunny, Parting, and Dream (probably others I'm not thinking of) who could put something together and become top players. And with the exception of Trap, the current top players are pretty inconsistent.
While EU and NA aren't as bad as Latam or China, they are still pretty straightforward. While I think MaxPax is overhyped, it's not surprising that he is because people want someone new (especially a rare good EU Protoss) to enter the fight. The rise of Clem has at least made EU watchable rather than the "Serral vs Reynor is the only match that matters" setup it was before, but region locking a relatively small esport will inevitably result in these sorts of forgone conclusion tournaments.
I think part of the issue is that the EU brackets are double elimination, compared to GSL and GSL ST whereby it's all single elimination. Since it's single-elimination, many KR have prepped strategies in certain maps against their opponents, it's much easier for upsets to happen.
In EU, they don't have the chance to do that. That is also why we see more lop-sided series in Korea. I think Maru's lost to Rogue was also due to Rogue's strats and mind-games. You don't see the level of mindgames and strats and prep in the EU brackets, partially because it's also double-elimination. I think if you get rid of double elimination, you'll see more diversity at the top.
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On June 05 2021 11:46 buzz_bender wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2021 02:16 QOGQOG wrote: Korea has players like Armani and Zoun making surprise deep runs and other inconsistently great players like Bunny, Parting, and Dream (probably others I'm not thinking of) who could put something together and become top players. And with the exception of Trap, the current top players are pretty inconsistent.
While EU and NA aren't as bad as Latam or China, they are still pretty straightforward. While I think MaxPax is overhyped, it's not surprising that he is because people want someone new (especially a rare good EU Protoss) to enter the fight. The rise of Clem has at least made EU watchable rather than the "Serral vs Reynor is the only match that matters" setup it was before, but region locking a relatively small esport will inevitably result in these sorts of forgone conclusion tournaments. I think part of the issue is that the EU brackets are double elimination, compared to GSL and GSL ST whereby it's all single elimination. Since it's single-elimination, many KR have prepped strategies in certain maps against their opponents, it's much easier for upsets to happen. In EU, they don't have the chance to do that. That is also why we see more lop-sided series in Korea. I think Maru's lost to Rogue was also due to Rogue's strats and mind-games. You don't see the level of mindgames and strats and prep in the EU brackets, partially because it's also double-elimination. I think if you get rid of double elimination, you'll see more diversity at the top.
In theory, but even in the upper bracket matches where there is time to prep. you don't see any upsets. It's not really a matter of tournament format when Clem, Reynor, Serral simply don't ever lose playoff matches to any of the other non-Korean players in these DH Masters events (though they sometimes do in other events which is a bit strange since the pros seem to focus more prep. on Dreamhack). For that matter apart from a singular loss to Drogo, Heromarine also doesn't lose to any of the other non-Koreans.
Also the WCS events had single elim. brackets and they were just as stratified.
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On June 05 2021 02:16 QOGQOG wrote:
You're predicting consistency from Rogue? Good luck with that.
Korea has players like Armani and Zoun making surprise deep runs and other inconsistently great players like Bunny, Parting, and Dream (probably others I'm not thinking of) who could put something together and become top players. And with the exception of Trap, the current top players are pretty inconsistent.
While EU and NA aren't as bad as Latam or China, they are still pretty straightforward. While I think MaxPax is overhyped, it's not surprising that he is because people want someone new (especially a rare good EU Protoss) to enter the fight. The rise of Clem has at least made EU watchable rather than the "Serral vs Reynor is the only match that matters" setup it was before, but region locking a relatively small esport will inevitably result in these sorts of forgone conclusion tournaments.
Yeah, I though Rogue was "turning into a new leaf" after seeing how well he played even after the GSL code S Finals, beating Cure-Byun-Solar in convincing fashion. But then recently hes turning back to the old Rogue again, doing Roach Ravager in pretty much every single matches. So....whoopsie.
Maru and Trap have been the most consistent imo, making Top 4 and Finals in most of tournaments that they took part. The rest are looking amazing in some tournament, but not in the other. Like Cure, Parting and Byun who cant really get far in the GSL despite doing very well otherwise.
MaxPax limitation is his "gamesense", going for Glaive Adept in consecutive games were not effective, but the rest of his skill are very impressive. HM is also looking very solid, but he just need some big win that showcase his top-tier status in EU, his overall games isnt that bad comparing to Clem in the match last night, but HM was too agressive and losing units by dropping endlessly into Clem defensive position.
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holy bigness from HeroMarine
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Canada8763 Posts
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Now Lambo beating Serral would be another thing entirely. When was the last time one of the greats lost at WCS/DH to anyone but eachother.
Would be amazing for Lambo too to finally beat the player he admires so much.
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Damn - poor Serral
He's definitely grown on me recently. I used to find him a bit too aloof for my personal taste (e.g., like an Innovation or Taeja), but it's nice to see him become more comfortable showing how he really feels recently (though unfortunately it comes out most often during losses)
Hope he can put up a fight this series
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Finally seeing some good old prepped strats in EU bracket! Lambo has some amazing mind-games against Serral!
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Canada8763 Posts
On June 06 2021 00:23 Bagration wrote: Damn - poor Serral
He's definitely grown on me recently. I used to find him a bit too aloof for my personal taste (e.g., like an Innovation or Taeja), but it's nice to see him become more comfortable showing how he really feels recently (though unfortunately it comes out most often during losses)
Hope he can put up a fight this series
Foreign players success generally evolve inversely proportionally to their social skills.
Also Lambo may be doing it!
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Lambo had this game if he killed Serral's morphing baneling cocoons with his own banelings.
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WOOOOOOOOOOO LAMBO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Someone give DeMuslim a hug, he needs it
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Soooooooooooooooooooooooooo happy for Lambo.
Poor Serral. ZvZ is such a bitch!
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Canada8763 Posts
Well look at that, Serral outside the top 4 of an EU event, who could have imagined.
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Historical result! Seems like this one is big enough as an upset to singlehandedly stop the discussion on EU's predictability.
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How long has it been since Serral won an EU event?
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Serral out of DH finals, can't believe it
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That move to Shopify Rebellion has been very good for Lambo
On June 06 2021 01:05 Xain0n wrote: Historical result!
Agree.
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Canada8763 Posts
On June 06 2021 01:06 sneakyfox wrote:That move to Shopify Rebellion has been very good for Lambo
Lambo's on fire. It's a really nice late career surge for him!
Edit: also I just realized, that mean no Serral at the season final!
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On June 06 2021 01:07 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2021 01:06 sneakyfox wrote:That move to Shopify Rebellion has been very good for Lambo Lambo's on fire. It's a really nice late career surge for him! who's going to coach Reynor now though if Lambo begins to put such results on the board ?
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On June 06 2021 01:07 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2021 01:06 sneakyfox wrote:That move to Shopify Rebellion has been very good for Lambo Edit: also I just realized, that mean no Serral at the season final!
Oh shit you're right
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On June 06 2021 01:07 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2021 01:06 sneakyfox wrote:That move to Shopify Rebellion has been very good for Lambo Lambo's on fire. It's a really nice late career surge for him! Edit: also I just realized, that mean no Serral at the season final! yeah this is the most important point imo
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Is the "Biggest mutalisk hater in the world" mention new in his twitter's profile?
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Canada8763 Posts
On June 06 2021 01:21 nojok wrote: Is the "Biggest mutalisk hater in the world" mention new in his twitter's profile?
Nope, that's when he lost to Reynor if I remember right
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Was Reynor even alive the last time Serral didn't make top 4 in Europe
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I want Clem vs Big Gabe grand finals
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On June 06 2021 01:21 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2021 01:21 nojok wrote: Is the "Biggest mutalisk hater in the world" mention new in his twitter's profile? Nope, that's when he lost to Reynor if I remember right Do you have any idea how little that narrows it down?
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Canada8763 Posts
Jesus Clem is absurdly good at tvz
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Those marines who don't shoot but that the zerg's units don't target with A moves did work!
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Reynor was looking very good in the early part of game 1, but his slower upgrade finally caught up in the latter part of the game.
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Clem winning would mean either a TvZ or TvT finals. Im okay with that
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On June 06 2021 01:33 sneakyfox wrote: I want Clem vs Big Gabe grand finals
Heromarines TvZ looked so solid versus Lambo and Elazer, but it seems like he just mechanically outpowers his opponents. Unfortunately that's not going to work vs Reynor
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On June 06 2021 01:52 Pandain wrote:Heromarines TvZ looked so solid versus Lambo and Elazer, but it seems like he just mechanically outpowers his opponents. Unfortunately that's not going to work vs Reynor I agree. Gabe's style of terran is just too predictable to beat a mechanically equivalent opponent because those players cut corners in a macro game where Gabe will not. I think he has a better chance if mixes it up like with the 2 rax vs Elazer.
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What is with Reynor's reluctance to use Hydras? Ling only does not work
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Canada8763 Posts
Reynor need to do something else, it's a beatdown.
Bright the all ins, ling flood, mass roaches composition, anything.
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These mid series breaks are terrible.
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On June 06 2021 02:01 Nakajin wrote: Reynor need to do something else, it's a beatdown.
Bright the all ins, ling flood, mass roach composition anything.
Surely you could never win a premier tournament by just massing roaches
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Damn, Clem looks like he's on another level of Reynor. Never thought I'd ever seen someone like Reynor being dominated like that before
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Canada8763 Posts
On June 06 2021 02:04 sneakyfox wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2021 02:01 Nakajin wrote: Reynor need to do something else, it's a beatdown.
Bright the all ins, ling flood, mass roach composition anything. Surely you could never win a premier tournament by just massing roaches
You are saying that to someone who's currently using the breaks to skim the Internet looking for late 2012 zvz games, roaches puking on each other everywhere.
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On June 06 2021 02:08 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2021 02:04 sneakyfox wrote:On June 06 2021 02:01 Nakajin wrote: Reynor need to do something else, it's a beatdown.
Bright the all ins, ling flood, mass roach composition anything. Surely you could never win a premier tournament by just massing roaches You are saying that to someone who's currently using the breaks to skim the Internet looking for late 2012 zvz games, roaches pucking on each other everywhere. Weird fetish but okay
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I don't understand how people like top level TvZ, the matchup is so mechanical. In 2019 I felt bad for Clem and today I feel bad for Reynor. Just one dude slowly explaining to the other that he has the advantage here.
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On June 06 2021 02:09 Nebuchad wrote: I don't understand how people like top level TvZ, the matchup is so mechanical. In 2019 I felt bad for Clem and today I feel bad for Reynor. Just one dude slowly explaining to the other that he has the advantage here. has also something to do with them playing each other so often and always playing standard. In the korean scene when Maru/Rogue/Dark play each other anything can happen
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On June 06 2021 02:11 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2021 02:09 Nebuchad wrote: I don't understand how people like top level TvZ, the matchup is so mechanical. In 2019 I felt bad for Clem and today I feel bad for Reynor. Just one dude slowly explaining to the other that he has the advantage here. has also something to do with them playing each other so often and always playing standard. In the korean scene when Maru/Rogue/Dark play each other anything can happen Anything could happen but really they're just gonna mass roaches
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TvZ has been the greatest matchup in Starcraft since Brood War first came out, ever since the days of Boxer vs. Yellow
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On June 06 2021 02:16 Bagration wrote: TvZ has been the greatest matchup in Starcraft since Brood War first came out, ever since the days of Boxer vs. Yellow Agreed. Maybe except in late 2015 HotS
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Would be awesome if PvT and ZvP could be as iconic
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Surprised Reynor took a map tbh
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We got ourselves an ace match! Awesome
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Canada8763 Posts
On June 06 2021 02:01 Nakajin wrote: Clem need to do something else, it's a beatdown.
Bright the all ins, bunker rushes, mech composition, anything.
Called it guys
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Clem is botching the last 2 games, his defense of the 3rd base was lacking. And he also went Mine-happy and ended up with no Tank nor Ghost against Lurker.
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On June 06 2021 02:33 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2021 02:01 Nakajin wrote: Clem need to do something else, it's a beatdown.
Bright the all ins, bunker rushes, mech composition, anything. Called it guys wish both players mixed it up more though. They play great macro games but a bit variety in build orders would be great
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On June 06 2021 02:36 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2021 02:33 Nakajin wrote:On June 06 2021 02:01 Nakajin wrote: Clem need to do something else, it's a beatdown.
Bright the all ins, bunker rushes, mech composition, anything. Called it guys wish both players mixed it up more though. They play great macro games but a bit variety in build orders would be great If you want build diversity, the foreign scene isn't where you have to look at
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It's very nice that they're fighting tool and nail over fifths and sixths which means there's a lot more options for bases and smaller banks compared to the usual fights over sevenths and eights.
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Do Lurkers outrange snipes?
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On June 06 2021 03:03 DBooN wrote: Do Lurkers outrange snipes? same range
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Clem actually only on +2 armor
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Clem and Reynor are so good.
I think Clem got this
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On June 06 2021 03:04 Charoisaur wrote:same range So the standard strat for terrans is to get so many ghosts they cant all be cancelled? Seems Clem is really struggling with them.
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It's really hard to keep re-spreading the creep in these types of games, but Reynor needed to do it it seems.
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Jesus, if that's not the pinnacle of SC, I don't know what is.
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On June 06 2021 03:06 Rubicant1 wrote: Jesus, if that's not the pinnacle of SC, I don't know what is. Rogue vs Maru GSL finals?
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On June 06 2021 03:05 DBooN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2021 03:04 Charoisaur wrote:On June 06 2021 03:03 DBooN wrote: Do Lurkers outrange snipes? same range So the standard strat for terrans is to get so many ghosts they cant all be cancelled? Seems Clem is really struggling with them.
No, his ghost were incredibly cost efficient.
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On June 06 2021 03:05 DBooN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2021 03:04 Charoisaur wrote:On June 06 2021 03:03 DBooN wrote: Do Lurkers outrange snipes? same range So the standard strat for terrans is to get so many ghosts they cant all be cancelled? Seems Clem is really struggling with them. pretty much or have them with bio to soak the Lurker shots
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On June 06 2021 03:07 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2021 03:06 Rubicant1 wrote: Jesus, if that's not the pinnacle of SC, I don't know what is. Rogue vs Maru GSL finals? Definitely a case for Pinnacle
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On June 06 2021 03:07 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2021 03:05 DBooN wrote:On June 06 2021 03:04 Charoisaur wrote:On June 06 2021 03:03 DBooN wrote: Do Lurkers outrange snipes? same range So the standard strat for terrans is to get so many ghosts they cant all be cancelled? Seems Clem is really struggling with them. No, his ghost were incredibly cost efficient. It's not just cost efficiency, but also being slowed down by a lot.
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Sick game. With such a close series I wonder who has the advantage if there's a rematch even with the 1 map lead. Feels like the loser has more info on how to adjust their play.
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I dont know why Reynor did not produce single Infestor to counter massive Ghosts, I think he can caught one Ghost with neural and EMP all the Ghosts before they can cast the snipe spells. Ragnarok did this to Innovation last match.
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On June 06 2021 03:05 DBooN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2021 03:04 Charoisaur wrote:On June 06 2021 03:03 DBooN wrote: Do Lurkers outrange snipes? same range So the standard strat for terrans is to get so many ghosts they cant all be cancelled? Seems Clem is really struggling with them. I think the unit model size means that if you outnumber the lurkers you'll have 2-3 ghosts aiming at a single lurker. So while 1 snipe maybe canceled the others will get off.
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On June 06 2021 03:14 swarminfestor wrote: I dont know why Reynor did not produce single Infestor to counter massive Ghosts, I think he caught one Ghost with neural and EMP all the Ghosts before they can cast the snipe spells. Ragnarok did this to Innovation last match. Ragnarok did it and still lost
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On June 06 2021 03:16 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2021 03:14 swarminfestor wrote: I dont know why Reynor did not produce single Infestor to counter massive Ghosts, I think he caught one Ghost with neural and EMP all the Ghosts before they can cast the snipe spells. Ragnarok did this to Innovation last match. Ragnarok did it and still lost
I knew that, but with Reynor's caliber he may win.
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On June 06 2021 03:14 swarminfestor wrote: I dont know why Reynor did not produce single Infestor to counter massive Ghosts, I think he caught one Ghost with neural and EMP all the Ghosts before they can cast the snipe spells. Ragnarok did this to Innovation last match. Yeah, the moment Reynor saw like 20-25 Ghost on Clem side and no tanks, it would have been great to switch to Lingbane Infestor to counter that. Reynor literally beat Maru in IEM because he was hitting great Fungal at the very end, so sad he didnt think about that now.
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On June 06 2021 03:18 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2021 03:14 swarminfestor wrote: I dont know why Reynor did not produce single Infestor to counter massive Ghosts, I think he caught one Ghost with neural and EMP all the Ghosts before they can cast the snipe spells. Ragnarok did this to Innovation last match. Yeah, the moment Reynor saw like 20-25 Ghost on Clem side and no tanks, it would have been great to switch to Lingbane Infestor to counter that. Reynor literally beat Maru in IEM because he was hitting great Fungal at the very end, so sad he didnt think about that now. I'd have to rewatch the game to be sure but I think Reynor was pretty gas-starved at that point
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I dont understand why EU Zerg not doing more all-in build, and opt for longer macro TvZ game, only to lose in the end anyway. I was hyped seeing Lambo putting down the Roach Warren, and then he waited forever to push, adding lingbane, Viper, ect. and lost.
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On June 06 2021 03:44 tigera6 wrote: I dont understand why EU Zerg not doing more all-in build, and opt for longer macro TvZ game, only to lose in the end anyway. I was hyped seeing Lambo putting down the Roach Warren, and then he waited forever to push, adding lingbane, Viper, ect. and lost. it's not just Zergs, it's all the top EU players. they just seem to believe that straight up macro games are the only "honorable way to play
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Heromarine prone to suddenly exploding in this series.
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what a messy, tense, close, great game
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Lambo simply has no answer for 2 medivacs per marine
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Damn, that was such a crazy game!
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Fantastic hahahaha ! I'm happy it goes to g5, let the best player win now.
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These games keep on delivering
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On June 06 2021 04:30 patermatrix wrote: These games keep on delivering today has been a really good day indeed
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On June 06 2021 03:07 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2021 03:06 Rubicant1 wrote: Jesus, if that's not the pinnacle of SC, I don't know what is. Rogue vs Maru GSL finals?
Pedigree-wise, yeah. But the last two series between the two haven't been great, especially from a viewer standpoint.
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On June 06 2021 04:29 [PkF] Wire wrote: Fantastic hahahaha ! I'm happy it goes to g5, let the best player win now. Maybe we can top this with 3 medivacs per marine
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That WTL practice paying off for Lambo after all those disappointing qualifiers.
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On June 06 2021 03:06 Rubicant1 wrote: Jesus, if that's not the pinnacle of SC, I don't know what is.
Kinda agree, Clems play reminded me of Innovations glorious days. The last match between Clem and Reynor is definitely up there with the greatest. Last time I was as entertained was Special vs. Classic on "Lost and Found", WCS 2018.
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Friendship with Ultralisk ended, Lurker is Lambo's new friend
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not seeing the army was so unfortunate for HM, but congrats to Lambo, incredible run and I hate to say it for Gabe / Serral but it feels good to have someone shake the EU scene a bit
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Gabe needs to stop doing the thing where he suicides his army into siege units.
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On June 06 2021 04:46 [PkF] Wire wrote: not seeing the army was so unfortunate for HM, but congrats to Lambo, incredible run and I hate to say it for Gabe / Serral but it feels good to have someone shake the EU scene a bit Truly the scene will be shaken to the core when Lambo eliminates Reynor and then doesn't win a game against Clem
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I never bet on anything (except liquibets ofc) but if I had to bet on the incoming Reynor - Lambo match, I'd put some silver on Lambo.
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On June 06 2021 04:51 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2021 04:46 [PkF] Wire wrote: not seeing the army was so unfortunate for HM, but congrats to Lambo, incredible run and I hate to say it for Gabe / Serral but it feels good to have someone shake the EU scene a bit Truly the scene will be shaken to the core when Lambo eliminates Reynor and then doesn't win a game against Clem I meant just not getting the same top 4 everytime is refreshing. And it's funny you say that, I was thinking this is the exact scenario I'd be betting on if I had to
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On June 06 2021 04:38 JoeCool wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2021 03:06 Rubicant1 wrote: Jesus, if that's not the pinnacle of SC, I don't know what is. Kinda agree, Clems play reminded me of Innovations glorious days. The last match between Clem and Reynor is definitely up there with the greatest. Last time I was as entertained was Special vs. Classic on "Lost and Found", WCS 2018. And Clem's micro is better than Innovation's even in his heyday I feel, especially the widow mine targeting. Of course the game has evolved and optimized.
And Reynor is like an upgraded version of Life.
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On June 06 2021 04:57 argonautdice wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2021 04:38 JoeCool wrote:On June 06 2021 03:06 Rubicant1 wrote: Jesus, if that's not the pinnacle of SC, I don't know what is. Kinda agree, Clems play reminded me of Innovations glorious days. The last match between Clem and Reynor is definitely up there with the greatest. Last time I was as entertained was Special vs. Classic on "Lost and Found", WCS 2018. And Clem's micro is better than Innovation's even in his heyday I feel, especially the widow mine targeting. Of course the game has evolved and optimized. And Reynor is like an upgraded version of Life. I wouldn't say Clem's micro is better than Inno's but it's definitely up there, Inno was known for his parade pushes and superb marine-split micro. Reynor is definitely a better version of Life
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I'm glad that Lambro won! Not only Reynor vs Lambo will be a very interesting game, it was pretty sad that a player as gifted and as knowledgeable as Lambo wasn't giving his best when it mattered.
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Reynor vs. Clem was one of the best series I have ever seen. Just amazing play by both.
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Scarlett's constant third base denials have been pretty fantastic. Nina needs to get a handle on those if she wants to play a remotely normal series.
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Let's go Neeb 3-1!!!! Edit: Neeb Macro is so good
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That engagement from Astrea was even uglier than the one Showtime took against Lambo.
edit: Looks like Neeb picked up on Astrea cancelling the zealot the previous game? I don't think he goes for the cyber-block if he didn't.
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holy shit Neeb. Edit: He would be 100% w/r if JonSnow didn't take that one map off of him. Neeb is playing such a dominant tournament and it's great for my Neeb fanboi heart. Edit 2: forget Big Gabe, we have Big Neeb
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Amazing games in EU today, not-so-much in NA. Hehe. Excited for the conclusions tomorrow. :0)
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On June 06 2021 05:03 AzAlexZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2021 04:57 argonautdice wrote:On June 06 2021 04:38 JoeCool wrote:On June 06 2021 03:06 Rubicant1 wrote: Jesus, if that's not the pinnacle of SC, I don't know what is. Kinda agree, Clems play reminded me of Innovations glorious days. The last match between Clem and Reynor is definitely up there with the greatest. Last time I was as entertained was Special vs. Classic on "Lost and Found", WCS 2018. And Clem's micro is better than Innovation's even in his heyday I feel, especially the widow mine targeting. Of course the game has evolved and optimized. And Reynor is like an upgraded version of Life. I wouldn't say Clem's micro is better than Inno's but it's definitely up there, Inno was known for his parade pushes and superb marine-split micro. Reynor is definitely a better version of Life
Life is arguably the most talented player to ever touch the game lol. Neither of those players hold a candle to Inno or Life especially in that time period (by far the most stacked and competitive time in SC2).
If they continue winning everything over this next year/year and a half we can start to talk about them in that sense. Similar to Serral who was prematurely placed in the goat conversations which looks a bit silly now.
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France12466 Posts
On June 06 2021 12:07 Moonerz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2021 05:03 AzAlexZ wrote:On June 06 2021 04:57 argonautdice wrote:On June 06 2021 04:38 JoeCool wrote:On June 06 2021 03:06 Rubicant1 wrote: Jesus, if that's not the pinnacle of SC, I don't know what is. Kinda agree, Clems play reminded me of Innovations glorious days. The last match between Clem and Reynor is definitely up there with the greatest. Last time I was as entertained was Special vs. Classic on "Lost and Found", WCS 2018. And Clem's micro is better than Innovation's even in his heyday I feel, especially the widow mine targeting. Of course the game has evolved and optimized. And Reynor is like an upgraded version of Life. I wouldn't say Clem's micro is better than Inno's but it's definitely up there, Inno was known for his parade pushes and superb marine-split micro. Reynor is definitely a better version of Life Life is arguably the most talented player to ever touch the game lol. Neither of those players hold a candle to Inno or Life especially in that time period (by far the most stacked and competitive time in SC2). If they continue winning everything over this next year/year and a half we can start to talk about them in that sense. Similar to Serral who was prematurely placed in the goat conversations which looks a bit silly now. Life is the most overrated player, not the most talented. But yeah peak INno was scary. Clem is being a bit overhyped but it should sort itself out once offline play resumes
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On June 06 2021 17:09 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2021 12:07 Moonerz wrote:On June 06 2021 05:03 AzAlexZ wrote:On June 06 2021 04:57 argonautdice wrote:On June 06 2021 04:38 JoeCool wrote:On June 06 2021 03:06 Rubicant1 wrote: Jesus, if that's not the pinnacle of SC, I don't know what is. Kinda agree, Clems play reminded me of Innovations glorious days. The last match between Clem and Reynor is definitely up there with the greatest. Last time I was as entertained was Special vs. Classic on "Lost and Found", WCS 2018. And Clem's micro is better than Innovation's even in his heyday I feel, especially the widow mine targeting. Of course the game has evolved and optimized. And Reynor is like an upgraded version of Life. I wouldn't say Clem's micro is better than Inno's but it's definitely up there, Inno was known for his parade pushes and superb marine-split micro. Reynor is definitely a better version of Life Life is arguably the most talented player to ever touch the game lol. Neither of those players hold a candle to Inno or Life especially in that time period (by far the most stacked and competitive time in SC2). If they continue winning everything over this next year/year and a half we can start to talk about them in that sense. Similar to Serral who was prematurely placed in the goat conversations which looks a bit silly now. Life is the most overrated player, not the most talented. But yeah peak INno was scary. Clem is being a bit overhyped but it should sort itself out once offline play resumes Life is talented but he made those mistakes which mean that he will never deserve to be talked about as the GOAT player because though he has the skills and the talent he will never be able to prove himself and thus all that 'talent' he has might as well be 'no talent'. IMO Life will never be able to be talked about as an equal to Reynor or Serral because at least they don't make dumbass decisions that screw up their careers (yet). Also Inno lost to Clem and Reynor plenty of times, but Peak Inno was definitely a beast
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Any idea why last day's schedule is so damn late? It would be midnight at most of Asia which means a significant SC2 population will not be able to watch (tomorrow is Monday though). If it started 2-3 hours earlier (right now), it would have been convenient for all 3 regions (EU, NA, Asia). What a weird timing.
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Northern Ireland20710 Posts
On June 06 2021 17:09 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2021 12:07 Moonerz wrote:On June 06 2021 05:03 AzAlexZ wrote:On June 06 2021 04:57 argonautdice wrote:On June 06 2021 04:38 JoeCool wrote:On June 06 2021 03:06 Rubicant1 wrote: Jesus, if that's not the pinnacle of SC, I don't know what is. Kinda agree, Clems play reminded me of Innovations glorious days. The last match between Clem and Reynor is definitely up there with the greatest. Last time I was as entertained was Special vs. Classic on "Lost and Found", WCS 2018. And Clem's micro is better than Innovation's even in his heyday I feel, especially the widow mine targeting. Of course the game has evolved and optimized. And Reynor is like an upgraded version of Life. I wouldn't say Clem's micro is better than Inno's but it's definitely up there, Inno was known for his parade pushes and superb marine-split micro. Reynor is definitely a better version of Life Life is arguably the most talented player to ever touch the game lol. Neither of those players hold a candle to Inno or Life especially in that time period (by far the most stacked and competitive time in SC2). If they continue winning everything over this next year/year and a half we can start to talk about them in that sense. Similar to Serral who was prematurely placed in the goat conversations which looks a bit silly now. Life is the most overrated player, not the most talented. But yeah peak INno was scary. Clem is being a bit overhyped but it should sort itself out once offline play resumes I wonder if Life’s ‘premature exit’ from the scene has him a tad overrated because he departed not long after his peak, vs a Taeja who was also a monster talent but played for years beneath his best.
Inno at his peak I still remember as one of the scariest players ever relative to his competition, but he never quite evolved once his mechanical advantage relative to the competition eroded. If you’d said to me in 2013 there’d a European Terran parade pushing just as deftly in the future I don’t think I would have believed you.
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On June 06 2021 22:03 parksonsc wrote: Any idea why last day's schedule is so damn late? It would be midnight at most of Asia which means a significant SC2 population will not be able to watch (tomorrow is Monday though). If it started 2-3 hours earlier (right now), it would have been convenient for all 3 regions (EU, NA, Asia). What a weird timing.
I agree with this. This will late so late for me. I would love to watch both, but now it is very unlikely.
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On June 06 2021 22:03 parksonsc wrote: Any idea why last day's schedule is so damn late? It would be midnight at most of Asia which means a significant SC2 population will not be able to watch (tomorrow is Monday though). If it started 2-3 hours earlier (right now), it would have been convenient for all 3 regions (EU, NA, Asia). What a weird timing. Imagine thinking Apollo cares about Asia lmao
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Canada8763 Posts
On June 06 2021 23:46 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2021 22:03 parksonsc wrote: Any idea why last day's schedule is so damn late? It would be midnight at most of Asia which means a significant SC2 population will not be able to watch (tomorrow is Monday though). If it started 2-3 hours earlier (right now), it would have been convenient for all 3 regions (EU, NA, Asia). What a weird timing. Imagine thinking Apollo cares about Asia lmao
I mean it's kind of normal to have the games played at the best time for the region. The Oceanian, Chinese and Korean play-in part of the competition were at shit hours for the rest of the world.
The only real region screwed was NA IMO By making it directly follow the EU region, the early competition were often right smack in the middle of the day during working hours.
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On June 06 2021 22:03 parksonsc wrote: Any idea why last day's schedule is so damn late? It would be midnight at most of Asia which means a significant SC2 population will not be able to watch (tomorrow is Monday though). If it started 2-3 hours earlier (right now), it would have been convenient for all 3 regions (EU, NA, Asia). What a weird timing. I believe that is to limit the downtime between EU and NA region, which will be cast by the same team.
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On June 06 2021 22:03 parksonsc wrote: Any idea why last day's schedule is so damn late? It would be midnight at most of Asia which means a significant SC2 population will not be able to watch (tomorrow is Monday though). If it started 2-3 hours earlier (right now), it would have been convenient for all 3 regions (EU, NA, Asia). What a weird timing.
I don't think Asian viewership of EU and NA events is all that significant.
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Canada8763 Posts
The dream is getting brutally murdered
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I hope it's not going to be an under 20 min 3:0
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On June 07 2021 01:39 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2021 22:03 parksonsc wrote: Any idea why last day's schedule is so damn late? It would be midnight at most of Asia which means a significant SC2 population will not be able to watch (tomorrow is Monday though). If it started 2-3 hours earlier (right now), it would have been convenient for all 3 regions (EU, NA, Asia). What a weird timing. I don't think Asian viewership of EU and NA events is all that significant.
Yeah this is correct. The prime viewership time is usually between 11am - 4pm ET or around there. NA/EU is absolutely the bulk of viewership.
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Lambo must know Reynor's ZvZ better than almost anyone else. I wonder how hard it makes it for Reynor to choose his builds and so on.
edit: Reminds me a bit of Daniil Dubov getting a win or two against Magnus Carlsen after being Carlsen's second during the chess world championship.
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Canada8763 Posts
The dream has resuscitate!
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I usually only watch GSL but I have to say from watching this at least the music is better :D
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Canada8763 Posts
Oh!!! The mind trick of all mind trick, let's see it!
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nice trick from Lambo with the hidden roach warren + cancellation... Let's see if it works !
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Lambo has had such good tricks, plans and mindgames this series.
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what a monstrous run from Lambo !!!
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Did Reynor forget to use the roaches from the third base or were they defending against some kind of a side attack?
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well it's not over yet, spoke too soon ! But Lambo is still in a prime spot imo
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Reynor really is the anti Serral, he's godlike at game 5.
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Lambo might have lost. But he is still a winner
What a sick run, great storyline!!!
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Haha the reactions in webcams
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aaaaaaaaaaaahhh Reynor did it ! But Lambo can't be too sad about that run, that was incredible, and in a way I'm happy with the outcome since Lambo - Clem would probably have been pretty one-sided while Clem - Reynor still holds some potential
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Ah... too bad. That was a good recovery from Reynor.
That being said it'll probably make a better finals given that Clem has won his last 14 series against Lambo (whereas Reynor has 'only' lost his last 7).
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This series was a nailbiter.
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He was in the driving seat but got afraid to win
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On June 07 2021 02:44 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Ah... too bad. That was a good recovery from Reynor.
That being said it'll probably make a better finals given that Clem has won his last 14 series against Lambo (whereas Reynor has 'only' lost his last 7). yeah honestly if Lambo takes it from replay when he decides to go up the ramp, he probably changes his decisions and ends up taking it, but you could see on the webcam shot how eager he was to complete the sweep... Took a risk, didn't pay off, still an amazing run. Let's hope the finals are as good cause that match had me on the edge of my seat !
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On June 07 2021 02:45 nojok wrote:He was in the driving seat but got afraid to win I'd say too eager to win ! Inches away from grasping it, he let off his guard for a split moment and Reynor took advantage of it, and rather brilliantly I should say
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Tough one for lambo.
he was up like 30 army supply, and threw it away by going up that ramp into spines.
If he had just gone south to the third where there was no spines he could have easily taken it and then just traded until reynor was out of money.
Bit of a throw.
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Let's not forget that cute mindgame (with the roach warrens) Lambo pulled off in that last game. That was really cool and probably one of the best moves of the tourney !
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On June 07 2021 02:49 [PkF] Wire wrote: Let's not forget that cute mindgame (with the roach warrens) Lambo pulled off in that last game. That was really cool and probably one of the best moves of the tourney !
thats such a rogue move
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On June 07 2021 02:47 Darpa wrote: Tough one for lambo.
he was up like 30 army supply, and threw it away by going up that ramp into spines.
If he had just gone south to the third where there was no spines he could have easily taken it and then just traded until reynor was out of money.
Bit of a throw.
But going to the third is not quick, you have to go around in that map, and he could very easily reposition the spines. The real mistake was not using those lings at the third to instead kill the fourth (he would have likely been ahead if he had killed the fourth in that big push), but that's not a very intuitive decision.
It's a great comeback but not sure I would call it a throw. Lambo made a very dedicated "kill" push, very logical, but Reynor just barely survived.
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Feels like the fact that they brought the Rush category back for TLMC14 (Submarine, Oxide, Blackburn. Beckett's a speed zone category map I guess) has quietly been one of the biggest boons for Terran over the past year and a half especially in longer series.
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We know Reynor is not very keen to it, but should he go full rogue and beat Clem with smart aggressive all-ins instead of pure speed and skill? Could he even manage that?
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On June 07 2021 03:15 t5Fab wrote: We know Reynor is not very keen to it, but should he go full rogue and beat Clem with smart aggressive all-ins instead of pure speed and skill? Could he even manage that?
Opening banshees is pretty good insurance against many of those.
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This map is such a joke lol.
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havent watched in a while, wtf is this map lol
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going for a macro game on this map is... bold to say the least...
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Which mapmaker created Beckett, and how did it ever get past TLMC judges and Blizzard QA?
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Smallest map by area in SCII ladder history (tied with Jungle Basin).
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On June 07 2021 03:25 warnull wrote: Blizzard QA?
That doesn't mean what it used to mean unfortunately.
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On June 07 2021 03:25 warnull wrote: Which mapmaker created Beckett, and how did it ever get past TLMC judges and Blizzard QA?
There is no Blizzard QA anymore, and they didn't QA for balance even when it existed. And TLMC judges are utter rubbish at judging small maps. There's been a dozen rush maps on ladder and only one of them, Dreamcatcher, was remotely balanced.
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On June 07 2021 03:26 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Smallest map by area in SCII ladder history (tied with Jungle Basin).
Thanks for reminding me about that very special map File:Jungle Basin.jpg
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Beckett industries is awesome, it's the rest of the game which is not designed properly around it.
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On June 07 2021 03:33 nojok wrote: Beckett industries is awesome, it's the rest of the game which is not designed properly around it.
No? Those rush distances, and some of those siege tank spots are unforced errors as far as I'm concerned. It's not like there's anything really novel and hard to predict about Beckett.
I save comments about the game not being designed properly around it, for changes that post-date the map (e.g it's not Romanticide's fault that skytoss is so good on it. Since skytoss was buffed after Romanticide was made).
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Foreigners shouldn't be allowed to play LBM
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Feels like Reynor loses one of these 90+ worker games every tournament, against Clem, Maru or whoever. This style just doesn't work out for him against top players. And Jagannatha isn't a map Reynor can afford to lose.
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On June 07 2021 03:41 Durnuu wrote: Foreigners shouldn't be allowed to play LBM It's okay when they're playing another foreigner going mine marine medivac.
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On June 07 2021 03:43 DBooN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 03:41 Durnuu wrote: Foreigners shouldn't be allowed to play LBM It's okay when they're playing another foreigner going mine marine medivac.
Clem's pretty damn good at mine/marine/medivac on account of playing it every single TvZ he plays.
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Reynor just doesn't play as confidently against Clem as he does against other Terrans.
He's ALWAYS defending against Clem, he never even tries to go for counter-attacks which is one of the main things Reynor does that makes him so effective.
It's not that Clem shuts his counters down either, Reynor just never goes for them. He's plays so much more timid vs clem.
Not to take anything away from Clem's TvZ which is awesome, but Reynor just doesn't look like the same player when he plays him.
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getting destroyed on Jagannatha isn't a good sign
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Imagine if clems TvP was as beastlike as his TvZ, lets hope he gets on that level in TvP aswell. insane player
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On June 07 2021 03:45 Vindicare605 wrote: Reynor just doesn't play as confidently against Clem as he does against other Terrans.
He's ALWAYS defending against Clem, he never even tries to go for counter-attacks which is one of the main things Reynor does that makes him so effective.
It's not that Clem shuts his counters down either, Reynor just never goes for them. He's plays so much more timid vs clem.
Not to take anything away from Clem's TvZ which is awesome, but Reynor just doesn't look like the same player when he plays him. Yeah it's like Reynor opens super super safe and clem just opens slightly greedy and ends up ahead before anything happens.
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On June 07 2021 03:45 Andi_Goldberger wrote: Imagine if clems TvP was as beastlike as his TvZ, lets hope he gets on that level in TvP aswell. insane player His TvT could use some work too, but I don't blame him for that. EU is not anywhere as good of a training ground for that match up as KR is.
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On June 07 2021 03:45 Charoisaur wrote: getting destroyed on Jagannatha isn't a good sign
Especially when you have to play on Oxide next.
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On June 07 2021 03:45 Andi_Goldberger wrote: Imagine if clems TvP was as beastlike as his TvZ, lets hope he gets on that level in TvP aswell. insane player Well, on EU he pretty much only has Showtime to get adequate practice and practicing vs him isn't really great preparation for facing Zest/Trap etc
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On June 07 2021 03:47 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 03:45 Andi_Goldberger wrote: Imagine if clems TvP was as beastlike as his TvZ, lets hope he gets on that level in TvP aswell. insane player Well, on EU he pretty much only has Showtime to get adequate practice and practicing vs him isn't really great preparation for facing Zest/Trap etc So you're saying Clem should move to Korea and play in GSL.
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To be honest, I dont think this is the top shape from Reynor comparing to his IEM performance. The issue with Reynor in this recent game, was that his multi-tasking and micro could not match Clem. LingBaneMuta require A LOT of micro to succeed, but that play into the hand of Clem, who out-micro pretty much everyone on Earth playing SC2.
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On June 07 2021 03:48 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 03:47 Charoisaur wrote:On June 07 2021 03:45 Andi_Goldberger wrote: Imagine if clems TvP was as beastlike as his TvZ, lets hope he gets on that level in TvP aswell. insane player Well, on EU he pretty much only has Showtime to get adequate practice and practicing vs him isn't really great preparation for facing Zest/Trap etc So you're saying Clem should move to Korea and play in GSL.
I'll buy that. Where there's the kickstarter/gofundme for that?
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Maybe he'll throw the honorable macro game out of the window now and tries something new.....
won't happen anyway
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I mean Clem is okay but he hasn't won an international tournament so I think he's way over-rated
+ Show Spoiler +
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Clem won't be a true terran until he starts 2 rax-ing people
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United Kingdom31934 Posts
I think Clem is the 2nd best terran on the planet right now.
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On June 07 2021 03:46 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 03:45 Andi_Goldberger wrote: Imagine if clems TvP was as beastlike as his TvZ, lets hope he gets on that level in TvP aswell. insane player His TvT could use some work too, but I don't blame him for that. EU is not anywhere as good of a training ground for that match up as KR is. I agree with your argument but it does not apply to Serral and Reynor, which I can't explain.
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Feardragon overextending a bit there, I think.
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lol Clem would not have won that GSL that Maru lost
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On June 07 2021 03:50 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 03:46 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 07 2021 03:45 Andi_Goldberger wrote: Imagine if clems TvP was as beastlike as his TvZ, lets hope he gets on that level in TvP aswell. insane player His TvT could use some work too, but I don't blame him for that. EU is not anywhere as good of a training ground for that match up as KR is. I agree with your argument but it does not apply to Serral and Reynor, which I can't explain. The explanation is simple; Zerg is broken in ZvP
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Reaper dead, better gg out already
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On June 07 2021 03:47 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 03:45 Andi_Goldberger wrote: Imagine if clems TvP was as beastlike as his TvZ, lets hope he gets on that level in TvP aswell. insane player Well, on EU he pretty much only has Showtime to get adequate practice and practicing vs him isn't really great preparation for facing Zest/Trap etc
His record against Zest isn't bad actually. But yeah it's certainly not on the level of his TvZ.
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On June 07 2021 03:49 Charoisaur wrote:Maybe he'll throw the honorable macro game out of the window now and tries something new..... won't happen anyway What I dont understand is, ZvZ in EU is full of trickery and all-in, you can barely see a late game nowadays. But ZvT and ZvP are pretty much standard macro game all the time unless its Bly. Like that game on Beckett, I dont mind if Roach Warren or some weird build is used, but that never happened.
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On June 07 2021 03:50 GumBa wrote: I think Clem is the 2nd best terran on the planet right now.
TY is going into the military and Innovation has been off his game for a while now, Byun's wrists are constantly a problem.
Not a hot take at all.
Clem and Maru are the two best Terrans in the world right now. Bunny, Cure and Dream are in the upper echelons as well but a pretty solid tier below them in my opinion.
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On June 07 2021 03:52 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 03:49 Charoisaur wrote:Maybe he'll throw the honorable macro game out of the window now and tries something new..... won't happen anyway What I dont understand is, ZvZ in EU is full of trickery and all-in, you can barely see a late game nowadays. But ZvT and ZvP are pretty much standard macro game all the time unless its Bly. Like that game on Beckett, I dont mind if Roach Warren or some weird build is used, but that never happened.
Does a ravager push ever work against banshees? It would have to be something quite strange like a baneling bust or something to even have a chance to work.
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On June 07 2021 03:52 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 03:50 GumBa wrote: I think Clem is the 2nd best terran on the planet right now. TY is going into the military and Innovation has been off his game for a while now, Byun's wrists are constantly a problem. Not a hot take at all. Clem and Maru are the two best Terrans in the world right now. Bunny, Cure and Dream are in the upper echelons as well but a pretty solid tier below them in my opinion. You really went and answered seriously to GumBa, come on dude
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On June 07 2021 03:52 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 03:49 Charoisaur wrote:Maybe he'll throw the honorable macro game out of the window now and tries something new..... won't happen anyway What I dont understand is, ZvZ in EU is full of trickery and all-in, you can barely see a late game nowadays. But ZvT and ZvP are pretty much standard macro game all the time unless its Bly. Like that game on Beckett, I dont mind if Roach Warren or some weird build is used, but that never happened. EU is lacking a GSL like tournament where you can practice for a specific opponent for one week, honing your curveballs and defending against them. Koreans, even those who are confident in their macro game, are ready to throw those all the time.
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On June 07 2021 03:52 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 03:49 Charoisaur wrote:Maybe he'll throw the honorable macro game out of the window now and tries something new..... won't happen anyway What I dont understand is, ZvZ in EU is full of trickery and all-in, you can barely see a late game nowadays. But ZvT and ZvP are pretty much standard macro game all the time unless its Bly. Like that game on Beckett, I dont mind if Roach Warren or some weird build is used, but that never happened. they have no balls. Those builds require balls
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On June 07 2021 03:51 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 03:47 Charoisaur wrote:On June 07 2021 03:45 Andi_Goldberger wrote: Imagine if clems TvP was as beastlike as his TvZ, lets hope he gets on that level in TvP aswell. insane player Well, on EU he pretty much only has Showtime to get adequate practice and practicing vs him isn't really great preparation for facing Zest/Trap etc His record against Zest isn't bad actually. But yeah it's certainly not on the level of his TvZ. Well, overall record against Zest doesnt really matter, because the guy lost to a no-name Chinese Toss in EPT Cup a while back. But he usually show up in big tournament like IEM, if he make it past the qualifier.
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On June 07 2021 03:53 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 03:52 tigera6 wrote:On June 07 2021 03:49 Charoisaur wrote:Maybe he'll throw the honorable macro game out of the window now and tries something new..... won't happen anyway What I dont understand is, ZvZ in EU is full of trickery and all-in, you can barely see a late game nowadays. But ZvT and ZvP are pretty much standard macro game all the time unless its Bly. Like that game on Beckett, I dont mind if Roach Warren or some weird build is used, but that never happened. Does a ravager push ever work against banshees? It would have to be something quite strange like a baneling bust or something to even have a chance to work. Nydus, Ravager push with Ovi Queens all work fine against Banshees
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United Kingdom31934 Posts
On June 07 2021 03:53 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 03:52 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 07 2021 03:50 GumBa wrote: I think Clem is the 2nd best terran on the planet right now. TY is going into the military and Innovation has been off his game for a while now, Byun's wrists are constantly a problem. Not a hot take at all. Clem and Maru are the two best Terrans in the world right now. Bunny, Cure and Dream are in the upper echelons as well but a pretty solid tier below them in my opinion. You really went and answered seriously to GumBa, come on dude Excuse me? Clem being the second best is a legit opinion. He is one of the best terrans I have seen since lucifron.
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On June 07 2021 03:50 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 03:46 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 07 2021 03:45 Andi_Goldberger wrote: Imagine if clems TvP was as beastlike as his TvZ, lets hope he gets on that level in TvP aswell. insane player His TvT could use some work too, but I don't blame him for that. EU is not anywhere as good of a training ground for that match up as KR is. I agree with your argument but it does not apply to Serral and Reynor, which I can't explain.
I can explain that.
KR is a weak region for Zerg. Only Dark, Solar, and Rogue are consistently successful, every other Zerg is a far gap below them and the region in general is weak on the ladder for Zerg players.
EU on the other hand is a strong region for Zerg. Has been for many years. The best players to come from EU with a few exceptions have predominantly been Zerg players.
Protoss is pretty much strong everywhere on the ladder while not so much in the pro scene. This one is the real mystery.
So take the strongest race of the EU region and put them against KR players who are used to practicing against weaker Zerg players on Laddder (especially after the Jin Air break up) and that's how you get EU Zergs being so good vs KR players.
For Terran it's a different story. KR is the only region where Terran is strong. It's far and away the best training ground for TvT practice. EU and NA can't come close.
It all makes sense when you look at it from that point of view. Clem is a savant in TvZ. Why? Because he plays in a region where Zerg is very strong. He gets practice against the very best on the regular. His Protoss and Terran opponents are nowhere near as strong by comparison.
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On June 07 2021 03:52 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 03:49 Charoisaur wrote:Maybe he'll throw the honorable macro game out of the window now and tries something new..... won't happen anyway What I dont understand is, ZvZ in EU is full of trickery and all-in, you can barely see a late game nowadays. But ZvT and ZvP are pretty much standard macro game all the time unless its Bly. Like that game on Beckett, I dont mind if Roach Warren or some weird build is used, but that never happened.
Hyper aggressive builds are relatively low % success rate relatively to passive greedy game in ZvT especially. Most terran openings can deal with roach rush or baneling bust. Hellion banshee played properly gets ahead against any attempt to do early zerg aggressions.
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On June 07 2021 03:55 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 03:53 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On June 07 2021 03:52 tigera6 wrote:On June 07 2021 03:49 Charoisaur wrote:Maybe he'll throw the honorable macro game out of the window now and tries something new..... won't happen anyway What I dont understand is, ZvZ in EU is full of trickery and all-in, you can barely see a late game nowadays. But ZvT and ZvP are pretty much standard macro game all the time unless its Bly. Like that game on Beckett, I dont mind if Roach Warren or some weird build is used, but that never happened. Does a ravager push ever work against banshees? It would have to be something quite strange like a baneling bust or something to even have a chance to work. Nydus, Ravager push with Ovi Queens all work fine against Banshees
At this point I don't like Nydus builds much against banshees tbh. You might be able to just walk queens across given that it's Beckett though.
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On June 07 2021 03:53 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 03:52 tigera6 wrote:On June 07 2021 03:49 Charoisaur wrote:Maybe he'll throw the honorable macro game out of the window now and tries something new..... won't happen anyway What I dont understand is, ZvZ in EU is full of trickery and all-in, you can barely see a late game nowadays. But ZvT and ZvP are pretty much standard macro game all the time unless its Bly. Like that game on Beckett, I dont mind if Roach Warren or some weird build is used, but that never happened. Does a ravager push ever work against banshees? It would have to be something quite strange like a baneling bust or something to even have a chance to work. You can Queen walk in Beckett, I remember seeing the creep spread was all the way to Clem 3rd before he started to clean it up.
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On June 07 2021 03:53 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 03:52 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 07 2021 03:50 GumBa wrote: I think Clem is the 2nd best terran on the planet right now. TY is going into the military and Innovation has been off his game for a while now, Byun's wrists are constantly a problem. Not a hot take at all. Clem and Maru are the two best Terrans in the world right now. Bunny, Cure and Dream are in the upper echelons as well but a pretty solid tier below them in my opinion. You really went and answered seriously to GumBa, come on dude
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
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That's right, lurkers are the way
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Meanwhile this game is looking quite good for Reynor, so we'll get to see if he has something different on the very macro 2000 atmospheres. I just hope it's not the same 90+ worker stuff.
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Maru would've won this game.
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On June 07 2021 04:00 DBooN wrote: Maru would've won this game. I agree. I think he would have approached the map very differently from the start. A lot more siege tanks, faster 4th, faster transition into lategame with ghost, tank, pf.
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On June 07 2021 04:00 DBooN wrote: Maru would've won this game.
Maru could have also thrown a game away earlier in the series with a super risky gamble that he didn't need to try.
Roll the dice.
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On June 07 2021 04:02 Vindicare605 wrote:Maru could have also thrown a game away earlier in the series with a super risky gamble that he didn't need to try. Roll the dice. or won a game with a 2 rax
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Pretty surprising outcome. Clem's TvZ is 80% on Oxide, while Reynor's ZvT is sub-50%.
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On June 07 2021 04:02 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 04:02 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 07 2021 04:00 DBooN wrote: Maru would've won this game. Maru could have also thrown a game away earlier in the series with a super risky gamble that he didn't need to try. Roll the dice. or won a game with a 2 rax
On a Roll of 11 or 12 Maru wins with a 2 rax.
On a roll of 2 or 3 Maru gets blind countered with a pool first because his opponent expected it.
Roll the dice.
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On June 07 2021 04:04 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 04:02 Charoisaur wrote:On June 07 2021 04:02 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 07 2021 04:00 DBooN wrote: Maru would've won this game. Maru could have also thrown a game away earlier in the series with a super risky gamble that he didn't need to try. Roll the dice. or won a game with a 2 rax On a Roll of 11 or 12 Maru wins with a 2 rax. On a roll of 2 or 3 Maru gets blind countered with a pool first because his opponent expected it. Roll the dice. Maru doesn't auto-lose if he faces pool first with proxy rax though
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Like I just don't get this. Reynor is just so passive and overly defensive against Hellion/Banshee. No map presence at all. If this was a different Terran, Reynor would be on the map right now.
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On June 07 2021 04:08 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 04:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 07 2021 04:02 Charoisaur wrote:On June 07 2021 04:02 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 07 2021 04:00 DBooN wrote: Maru would've won this game. Maru could have also thrown a game away earlier in the series with a super risky gamble that he didn't need to try. Roll the dice. or won a game with a 2 rax On a Roll of 11 or 12 Maru wins with a 2 rax. On a roll of 2 or 3 Maru gets blind countered with a pool first because his opponent expected it. Roll the dice. Maru doesn't auto-lose if he faces pool first with proxy rax though
correct, notice I didn't say he loses. I just said he gets blind countered.
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Clem is never out of his comfort zone against Reynor.
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Yup. Clem just has complete control of this game and Reynor just let him have it. Never even tried to challenge him on the map. That's so not typical for how Reynor plays TvZ.
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On June 07 2021 03:51 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 03:47 Charoisaur wrote:On June 07 2021 03:45 Andi_Goldberger wrote: Imagine if clems TvP was as beastlike as his TvZ, lets hope he gets on that level in TvP aswell. insane player Well, on EU he pretty much only has Showtime to get adequate practice and practicing vs him isn't really great preparation for facing Zest/Trap etc His record against Zest isn't bad actually. But yeah it's certainly not on the level of his TvZ. he also got 2-0d by gungfubanda in this tourney, thats why I used his TvP not his TvT - his chances of getting owned by a semipro terran arent that big lol
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It really feels like eu zergs a somewhat weak on the prep side in tvz, they all seem to think the best way is always go macro and just do it with that. I know we like to mock rogue for stuff but he seems to be way better at that.
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Phew, Clément Desplanches is phenomenal. Making France proud ! Hope he makes his breakthrough (as far as global tourneys go, ofc he's already proved that he's good) once and for all in the upcoming season finals, I feel he enters that as a huge contender.
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The WB's final was better. I hope reynor can offer something new the next time they meet.
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On June 07 2021 04:13 Vindicare605 wrote: Yup. Clem just has complete control of this game and Reynor just let him have it. Never even tried to challenge him on the map. That's so not typical for how Reynor plays TvZ.
It's because Clem is twice as aggressive and in your face as any other terran. Reynor was constantly trying to do run-bys and drops, but he couldn't commit too many or he would just lose a base, and Clem was on point with stopping run-bys for the most part.
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Clem just has Reynors number so hard, always in control, always dictating the pace.
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On June 07 2021 04:13 Andi_Goldberger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 03:51 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On June 07 2021 03:47 Charoisaur wrote:On June 07 2021 03:45 Andi_Goldberger wrote: Imagine if clems TvP was as beastlike as his TvZ, lets hope he gets on that level in TvP aswell. insane player Well, on EU he pretty much only has Showtime to get adequate practice and practicing vs him isn't really great preparation for facing Zest/Trap etc His record against Zest isn't bad actually. But yeah it's certainly not on the level of his TvZ. he also got 2-0d by gungfubanda in this tourney, thats why I used his TvP not his TvT - his chances of getting owned by a semipro terran arent that big lol
I dunno. He's dropped a lot of maps to people we wouldn't expect him to in the last few months--Coffee, Kas, Ziggy, Brat_OK. So losing a full series isn't too far out there.
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On June 07 2021 04:13 Vindicare605 wrote: Yup. Clem just has complete control of this game and Reynor just let him have it. Never even tried to challenge him on the map. That's so not typical for how Reynor plays TvZ. Clem keep going for the same opening the entire match, and Reynor did nothing to stop him from doing that. The problem with Reynor now is his lack of map control, army movement and he is just doing the same build over and over while knowing he cant win doing such build. To be honest, I would like to see Serral vs Clem as Serral would probably come up with something different than just repeating the same stuff.
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On June 07 2021 04:19 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 04:13 Vindicare605 wrote: Yup. Clem just has complete control of this game and Reynor just let him have it. Never even tried to challenge him on the map. That's so not typical for how Reynor plays TvZ. It's because Clem is twice as aggressive and in your face as any other terran. Reynor was constantly trying to do run-bys and drops, but he couldn't commit too many or he would just lose a base, and Clem was on point with stopping run-bys for the most part. yeah going macro ZvT was a lot more reliable back in 2018-2019
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On June 07 2021 04:22 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 04:13 Vindicare605 wrote: Yup. Clem just has complete control of this game and Reynor just let him have it. Never even tried to challenge him on the map. That's so not typical for how Reynor plays TvZ. Clem keep going for the same opening the entire match, and Reynor did nothing to stop him from doing that. The problem with Reynor now is his lack of map control, army movement and he is just doing the same build over and over while knowing he cant win doing such build. To be honest, I would like to see Serral vs Clem as Serral would probably come up with something different than just repeating the same stuff.
I'd tend to agree. Serral's ZvT is a bit better than Reynor's right now.
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On June 07 2021 04:19 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 04:13 Vindicare605 wrote: Yup. Clem just has complete control of this game and Reynor just let him have it. Never even tried to challenge him on the map. That's so not typical for how Reynor plays TvZ. It's because Clem is twice as aggressive and in your face as any other terran. Reynor was constantly trying to do run-bys and drops, but he couldn't commit too many or he would just lose a base, and Clem was on point with stopping run-bys for the most part.
What game did you watch?
I watched a standard Reaper/Hellion Banshee opening and I watched Reynor cower in his base when he normally would be pressuring or denying the Terran third.
I saw Reynor completely ignore trying any kind of map pressure until Clem was already 30 supply ahead of him and beating on his 4th base.
Reynor was so passive he didn't even ATTEMPT to take the initiative. In other words he played like a run of the mill defensive macro Zerg that any Master's Terran player has seen a million times on ladder. That is not how Reynor wins championships.
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No Serral at the Season Finals seems so weird.
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On June 07 2021 04:26 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 04:19 Pandain wrote:On June 07 2021 04:13 Vindicare605 wrote: Yup. Clem just has complete control of this game and Reynor just let him have it. Never even tried to challenge him on the map. That's so not typical for how Reynor plays TvZ. It's because Clem is twice as aggressive and in your face as any other terran. Reynor was constantly trying to do run-bys and drops, but he couldn't commit too many or he would just lose a base, and Clem was on point with stopping run-bys for the most part. What game did you watch? I watched a standard Reaper/Hellion Banshee opening and I watched Reynor cower in his base when he normally would be pressuring or denying the Terran third. I saw Reynor completely ignore trying any kind of map pressure until Clem was already 30 supply ahead of him and beating on his 4th base. Reynor was so passive he didn't even ATTEMPT to take the initiative. In other words he played like a run of the mill defensive macro Zerg that any Master's Terran player has seen a million times on ladder. That is not how Reynor wins championships. Reynor was doing a lot of those half-ass runby, and only succeeded in one game. His lings normally werent enough to deal damage, so he run them back WHILE taking Marines shot. Also, Clem doesnt even bother trying to scout Reynor base to see what kind of build he might do, because they both know exactly which opening the other will do.
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On June 07 2021 04:32 TheLordofAwesome wrote: No Serral at the Season Finals seems so weird.
Not this year it's not.
This year has been all about Clem and Reynor in EU.
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On June 07 2021 04:35 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 04:32 TheLordofAwesome wrote: No Serral at the Season Finals seems so weird. Not this year it's not. This year has been all about Clem and Reynor in EU. He usually does enough to make it to the seaon finals though even if he loses to clem or Reynor. This year Lambo and Gabe placed higher and knocked him out of the top cut for the Season Finals.
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On June 07 2021 04:32 TheLordofAwesome wrote: No Serral at the Season Finals seems so weird.
Yup, but Lambo played an amazing tournament and it's really cool to see him going to the Finals.
Also holy heck did Clem look dominant, grats on that win! EU Summer tourney gonna be v telling of if this more recent form or what.
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corrosive bile on probes:
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Void Ray openings are so bad. Why continue with it?
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How did the games in the previous series between Astrea and Scarlett go?
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wow Scarlett just mauled Astrea. Didn't expect that at all !
Edit : OK I should stop calling games too soon, this is not over
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On June 07 2021 05:41 [PkF] Wire wrote: wow Scarlett just mauled Astrea. Didn't expect that at all !
Edit : OK I should stop calling games too soon, this is not over Hahaha
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lol I hope I didn't curse Scarlett ^^
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Wow. Well that's an impressive comeback.
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hey to be fair that was some unexpected comeback, don't tell me you all saw that coming
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On June 07 2021 05:44 [PkF] Wire wrote:hey to be fair that was some unexpected comeback, don't tell me you all saw that coming what do you mean, I TOTALLY saw that coming
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On June 07 2021 05:45 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 05:44 [PkF] Wire wrote:hey to be fair that was some unexpected comeback, don't tell me you all saw that coming what do you mean, I TOTALLY saw that coming I sure didn't ^^
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OK I feel safe calling it now
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On June 07 2021 05:49 [PkF] Wire wrote:OK I feel safe calling it now :D
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On June 07 2021 05:50 TheLordofAwesome wrote::D to be exact I typed this when Astrea dropped under 10 workers. I guess he gged while I was typing ^^
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OMG Scarlett's drone drill is so dirty :D
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Oof...as a Protoss player, that last game just hurts to watch. As a Canadian, however, I'm hyped for the Scarlett/Neeb rematch.
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On June 07 2021 05:51 FrkFrJss wrote: Oof...as a Protoss player, that last game just hurts to watch. As a Canadian, however, I'm hyped for the Scarlett/Neeb rematch. that build has been getting so many cheap wins now it shouldn't hurt anymore tbh
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Scarlett always seems to all in whens shes up 2-0 or 2-1 in the final game. Feel like people should expect that. lol
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Would he have held if he didn't cancel the shield battery and his wall in? Seemed like he might've to me.
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On June 07 2021 05:53 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 05:51 FrkFrJss wrote: Oof...as a Protoss player, that last game just hurts to watch. As a Canadian, however, I'm hyped for the Scarlett/Neeb rematch. that build has been getting so many cheap wins now it shouldn't hurt anymore tbh Zest showed us all how to crush that build vs Rogue in GSL
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On June 07 2021 05:55 DBooN wrote: Would he have held if he didn't cancel the shield battery and his wall in? Seemed like he might've to me. I was wondering the same... Didn't help for sure
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On June 07 2021 05:56 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 05:53 [PkF] Wire wrote:On June 07 2021 05:51 FrkFrJss wrote: Oof...as a Protoss player, that last game just hurts to watch. As a Canadian, however, I'm hyped for the Scarlett/Neeb rematch. that build has been getting so many cheap wins now it shouldn't hurt anymore tbh Zest showed us all how to crush that build vs Rogue in GSL Just have a probe ready to wall behind the adept/zealot in the wall
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On June 07 2021 05:55 DBooN wrote: Would he have held if he didn't cancel the shield battery and his wall in? Seemed like he might've to me.
Probably not? Since without the two extra adepts he couldn't have cleared the lings that were already inside fast enough.
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On June 07 2021 05:53 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 05:51 FrkFrJss wrote: Oof...as a Protoss player, that last game just hurts to watch. As a Canadian, however, I'm hyped for the Scarlett/Neeb rematch. that build has been getting so many cheap wins now it shouldn't hurt anymore tbh
I don't think the number of cheap wins really lessens the pain of seeing it, for me at least.
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On June 07 2021 05:56 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 05:53 [PkF] Wire wrote:On June 07 2021 05:51 FrkFrJss wrote: Oof...as a Protoss player, that last game just hurts to watch. As a Canadian, however, I'm hyped for the Scarlett/Neeb rematch. that build has been getting so many cheap wins now it shouldn't hurt anymore tbh Zest showed us all how to crush that build vs Rogue in GSL I'm not implying it's broken, it's indeed very easy to beat if you know it's coming - just have a probe ready to complete the wall off and laugh. It still does harvest cheap points but I'm used to it by now
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On June 07 2021 05:58 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 05:56 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On June 07 2021 05:53 [PkF] Wire wrote:On June 07 2021 05:51 FrkFrJss wrote: Oof...as a Protoss player, that last game just hurts to watch. As a Canadian, however, I'm hyped for the Scarlett/Neeb rematch. that build has been getting so many cheap wins now it shouldn't hurt anymore tbh Zest showed us all how to crush that build vs Rogue in GSL I'm not implying it's broken, it's indeed very easy to beat if you know it's coming - just have a probe ready to complete the wall off and laugh. It still does harvest cheap points but I'm used to it by now Definitely a lot of cheap wins with it. Zest was literally the first person in GSL to ever win against that build and that was after it got used nearly 10 times.
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Scarlett's interviews are so great
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Canada8763 Posts
On June 07 2021 06:09 warnull wrote:Scarlett's interviews are so great
She has definitely come a long way since the time she used to bolt out of the stage.
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No 2k atmospheres pick . Maybe neither of them want a repeat of the hour long game.
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That was a bizarre misread from Neeb--he'd seen absolutely everything.
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relying on speedlings + biles to defend adepts was definitely unusual. I was sceptical about the chances of the following counterpush but nice way to get a point on the board for Scarlett !
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On June 07 2021 06:38 ZigguratOfUr wrote: That was a bizarre misread from Neeb--he'd seen absolutely everything. yeah I was shocked by the 0 batteries when the push was already at his door too
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Scarlett definitely taking pages from Rogue's book
but no success with that one
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that was an amazing hold from Neeb though
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The void rays were definitely in the right position at the right time. Too often you see protosses be overeager and lose them to the queens when they still can provide value at the third against the lings or on the fringes of the action. Neeb knows how to be patient.
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On June 07 2021 06:52 AzAlexZ wrote: that was an amazing hold from Neeb though yeah that was good. The fact that Scarlett lost a lot of lings carelessly and that he caught wind of the nydus with the pylon helped tremendously, unsure he holds if those two things don't happen
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maybe we get the unending death animation kind of game now ? Would be a fitting way to close the series
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Neeb's defense is definitely very good
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Scarlett making this extremely hard for herself going for a fight like this,
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Hmm... only roaches from Scarlett makes the blink micro easier--mixing in lings might have made things more challenging. But maybe she didn't have the larva and it looks like it's good enough for Scarlett.
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Why no lings and Hydras Scarlett? I mean come on, Stalker balls?
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On June 07 2021 07:24 jpg06051992 wrote: Why no lings and Hydras Scarlett? I mean come on, Stalker balls?
Hydras are still units you need to transition into which is hard especially if the opponent has disruptors.
Congratz Neeb for getting back on the throne of NA and in quite a convincing fashion after losing the last two of these.
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deserved, Neeb looked dominant throughout the tourney. Scarlett put up a good fight though, better than I expected in any case !
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I just noticed that there will be no Serral at the season finals? What? How? (rhetorical question, still unbelievable)
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I just realised season finals are a month away
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France12466 Posts
I don't think the strategy of not doing ESL cups is working anymore for Serral, and to a lesser extent Reynor... They would need the practice against HeroMarine and Clem as well as each other, and battling "lesser" zergs could make Serral more immune to them maybe? Was a disappointing run.
Clem seems miles ahead of Reynor atm, but the latter ZvT was probably overrated from beating Maru online in high ping series so I am not that surprised. Still nice that the prophecy has come at full force
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On June 07 2021 17:30 Poopi wrote: I don't think the strategy of not doing ESL cups is working anymore for Serral, and to a lesser extent Reynor... They would need the practice against HeroMarine and Clem as well as each other, and battling "lesser" zergs could make Serral more immune to them maybe? Was a disappointing run.
Clem seems miles ahead of Reynor atm, but the latter ZvT was probably overrated from beating Maru online in high ping series so I am not that surprised. Still nice that the prophecy has come at full force
Its just so funny that the casters are pushing hard now the narrative of online ping hurts the terrans the most and this is why Clem has a bad record with Korean protoss. While true, there were much more shy to repeat the same argument when terrans (ahem, Maru) were performing poorly than expected vs EU zergs.
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Northern Ireland20710 Posts
On June 07 2021 17:30 Poopi wrote: I don't think the strategy of not doing ESL cups is working anymore for Serral, and to a lesser extent Reynor... They would need the practice against HeroMarine and Clem as well as each other, and battling "lesser" zergs could make Serral more immune to them maybe? Was a disappointing run.
Clem seems miles ahead of Reynor atm, but the latter ZvT was probably overrated from beating Maru online in high ping series so I am not that surprised. Still nice that the prophecy has come at full force However they’ve practiced in the past has obviously worked out brilliantly for them, but yeah it might be worth giving it a crack
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On June 07 2021 17:30 Poopi wrote: I don't think the strategy of not doing ESL cups is working anymore for Serral, and to a lesser extent Reynor... They would need the practice against HeroMarine and Clem as well as each other, and battling "lesser" zergs could make Serral more immune to them maybe? Was a disappointing run.
Clem seems miles ahead of Reynor atm, but the latter ZvT was probably overrated from beating Maru online in high ping series so I am not that surprised. Still nice that the prophecy has come at full force Its just from my personal observation, but isnt the EU Open Cup having too many players participating? I think KR and NA only have around 32 players or less, while EU has like up to round of 128? Surely the top players will finish their matches in minutes, but still have to wait around for their upcoming opponent to finish their matches as well, which could be up to half an hour. I wouldnt commit that much time if I were them, and just focus on practicing on the ladder or in private games. Clem TvZ is on another whole level in mid-game, even to Maru, and Reynor also isnt at his best shape comparing to his IEM form as well.
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On June 07 2021 18:04 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 17:30 Poopi wrote: I don't think the strategy of not doing ESL cups is working anymore for Serral, and to a lesser extent Reynor... They would need the practice against HeroMarine and Clem as well as each other, and battling "lesser" zergs could make Serral more immune to them maybe? Was a disappointing run.
Clem seems miles ahead of Reynor atm, but the latter ZvT was probably overrated from beating Maru online in high ping series so I am not that surprised. Still nice that the prophecy has come at full force Its just so funny that the casters are pushing hard now the narrative of online ping hurts the terrans the most and this is why Clem has a bad record with Korean protoss. While true, there were much more shy to repeat the same argument when terrans (ahem, Maru) were performing poorly than expected vs EU zergs.
Yeah, when Maru lost to Reynor online - "wow Reynor is amazing, he is a beast, clearly the best player in the world" And then when Clem lost to Korean protoss online "it is because of ping that hurts Terran more" and i'm talking about Rotterdam, how can you not call that biased commentary?
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Canada8763 Posts
On June 07 2021 18:04 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 17:30 Poopi wrote: I don't think the strategy of not doing ESL cups is working anymore for Serral, and to a lesser extent Reynor... They would need the practice against HeroMarine and Clem as well as each other, and battling "lesser" zergs could make Serral more immune to them maybe? Was a disappointing run.
Clem seems miles ahead of Reynor atm, but the latter ZvT was probably overrated from beating Maru online in high ping series so I am not that surprised. Still nice that the prophecy has come at full force Its just so funny that the casters are pushing hard now the narrative of online ping hurts the terrans the most and this is why Clem has a bad record with Korean protoss. While true, there were much more shy to repeat the same argument when terrans (ahem, Maru) were performing poorly than expected vs EU zergs.
Also since Clem cross server tvz has just as freaking amazing as in EU vs EU game.
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On June 08 2021 01:33 parksonsc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 18:04 Argonauta wrote:On June 07 2021 17:30 Poopi wrote: I don't think the strategy of not doing ESL cups is working anymore for Serral, and to a lesser extent Reynor... They would need the practice against HeroMarine and Clem as well as each other, and battling "lesser" zergs could make Serral more immune to them maybe? Was a disappointing run.
Clem seems miles ahead of Reynor atm, but the latter ZvT was probably overrated from beating Maru online in high ping series so I am not that surprised. Still nice that the prophecy has come at full force Its just so funny that the casters are pushing hard now the narrative of online ping hurts the terrans the most and this is why Clem has a bad record with Korean protoss. While true, there were much more shy to repeat the same argument when terrans (ahem, Maru) were performing poorly than expected vs EU zergs. Yeah, when Maru lost to Reynor online - "wow Reynor is amazing, he is a beast, clearly the best player in the world" And then when Clem lost to Korean protoss online "it is because of ping that hurts Terran more" and i'm talking about Rotterdam, how can you not call that biased commentary? yeah there has been a very strong foreigner bias in many of the casters for 3? 4? years now, its not a huge deal but definitely noticeable
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And then when Clem lost to Korean protoss online "it is because of ping that hurts Terran more" and i'm talking about Rotterdam, how can you not call that biased commentary?
where did rotterdam said that? he said that the ping hurts terrans the most, what is arguabel, but i think he is right. he never said that clem lost because of the ping. btw the opposit argumentation was used by rotterdam when zest lost to heroarmine n the esl cup yesterday: Zest only lost because of the ping for koreans on the europe server. Is this now korean biased by rotterdam?
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France12466 Posts
On June 08 2021 14:50 DarkGamer wrote:Show nested quote + And then when Clem lost to Korean protoss online "it is because of ping that hurts Terran more" and i'm talking about Rotterdam, how can you not call that biased commentary? where did rotterdam said that? he said that the ping hurts terrans the most, what is arguabel, but i think he is right. he never said that clem lost because of the ping. btw the opposit argumentation was used by rotterdam when zest lost to heroarmine n the esl cup yesterday: Zest only lost because of the ping for koreans on the europe server. Is this now korean biased by rotterdam? There is a big difference in ping between KR - EU and KR - NA or EU - NA. Afaik the IEM / DH inter are played on NA between EU and KR, not on either EU or KR which is horrendous ping.
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Its a horrendous ping for both players?
I didnt get the point of your post Poopi and what it has to do with my post...
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On June 08 2021 23:00 DarkGamer wrote: Its a horrendous ping for both players?
I didnt get the point of your post Poopi and what it has to do with my post... I think in the ESL Cup they played on EU server, so only Zest had to deal with super terrible ping (as opposed to both sides playing at moderate ping on NA).
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