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On July 28 2011 21:38 ForeverSleep wrote: You do understand that the marines and the banshees will essentially counter the protoss mech and that the pdd will nullify the anti-air, right? Don't talk when you obviously never faced this push, and even less when you "were decent at this game but for some reason don't play anymore"
I honestly can hold this push in my sleep when I offrace as toss. Also, I don't play anymore because I am currently living in China without a suitable PC thank you.
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On July 28 2011 19:36 Mioraka wrote: LEEEEEEENOOOCKKKKKK
Cute lil fat boy back to Code S, the rightful place for him :D
wrong thread dude. thanks for spoiling the day 3 up and downs for me, ass.
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On July 29 2011 00:59 LicH. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 21:38 ForeverSleep wrote: You do understand that the marines and the banshees will essentially counter the protoss mech and that the pdd will nullify the anti-air, right? Don't talk when you obviously never faced this push, and even less when you "were decent at this game but for some reason don't play anymore"
I honestly can hold this push in my sleep when I offrace as toss. Also, I don't play anymore because I am currently living in China without a suitable PC thank you.
more claims, still no explications (but then again, for someone who doesn't play the game, i can understand you have nothing to show, really)
Your contribution so far : "those Korean protosses are retarded. I could have won those games even if I don't play this race. I won't tell you how tho, but honestly, those guys are retarded. I don't play starcraft anymore (or never have, for that matter), but I do know more than a bunch of guys who play 10 hours a day!!"
Keep going like that and you won't survive long in teamliquid.
(btw, I honestly am grandmaster in the korean ladder. Honestly. Thank you).
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Saw oGHero beat Byun doing this build yesterday on Byun's stream (which is awesome). He opened phoenixes, then blink stalkers and just blinked in byun's base each time he tried to move out, finally this turned into a base race where hero had a big advantage as he could save his probes and just establish a new base in another main.
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On July 29 2011 15:11 MrCon wrote: Saw oGHero beat Byun doing this build yesterday on Byun's stream (which is awesome). He opened phoenixes, then blink stalkers and just blinked in byun's base each time he tried to move out, finally this turned into a base race where hero had a big advantage as he could save his probes and just establish a new base in another main.
The problem with each and every phoenix-opener I know is, that they inevitably fall behind against a standard one rax expo. You need a fast 2nd gas, otherwise you just can't build phoenixes. And recently the metagame has shifted from early marauder pokes to marine-heavy early compositions, so with bad luck you might do zero eco-damage.
And if I go stargate after expanding, then I need to figure out a way to produce observers with it.
I've written that pretty much exactly one year ago: the threat of cloaked-banshee-auto-gg is a huge burden for protoss PvT as it drasticly limits possible build orders. If there were better ways of determining whether or not cloak will be used, then a large variation of expansion into phoenix builds could be an option.
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On July 29 2011 19:29 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 15:11 MrCon wrote: Saw oGHero beat Byun doing this build yesterday on Byun's stream (which is awesome). He opened phoenixes, then blink stalkers and just blinked in byun's base each time he tried to move out, finally this turned into a base race where hero had a big advantage as he could save his probes and just establish a new base in another main. The problem with each and every phoenix-opener I know is, that they inevitably fall behind against a standard one rax expo. You need a fast 2nd gas, otherwise you just can't build phoenixes. And recently the metagame has shifted from early marauder pokes to marine-heavy early compositions, so with bad luck you might do zero eco-damage. And if I go stargate after expanding, then I need to figure out a way to produce observers with it. I've written that pretty much exactly one year ago: the threat of cloaked-banshee-auto-gg is a huge burden for protoss PvT as it drasticly limits possible build orders. If there were better ways of determining whether or not cloak will be used, then a large variation of expansion into phoenix builds could be an option.
Something in your post caught my eye: "I need to figure out a way to produce observers with it" => "the threat of cloaked-banshee-auto-gg"
The reason I noticed it is it reminds me very much of what Zergs were saying 6-8 months ago. "We need a quick lair cause otherwise we can't detect and can't get anti-air units". This is now not only known to be avoidable by using spore crawlers but spore crawlers are in fact the preferred method (as a fast lair is more expensive as it means early gas).
How much have protoss players (at a high level obviously) experimented with cannon defenses and/or fast expand builds ?
It seems to me that phoenixes could defend perfectly against banshees if you have a few cannons. The cannons keep the home base perfectly safe, the Terran has already made a massive investment (much larger than 3-4 cannons for 2 bases) in those banshees, banshees mean fewer units at home for Terran so odds are the phoenixes can do some damage and on top of all that, phoenixes can hunt down banshees because cloak is not eternal.
Note that a lot of this (for Zerg and presumably for Toss too) relies on the fact that a) banshees can't fight most units toe to toe and b) the detection range on static defense is much larger than actual range so you don't need to have quite as many cannons as you might initially think.
In fact protoss cannons have the added advantage of fending off drops as well and helping against marine/marauder pushes.
To me the biggest issue with cannon/phoenix would be tanks but they don't hit air and are (like banshees) a large investment. The 1/1/1 push we have been seeing lately would also be punished very hard if you had 4-5 phoenixes that could scout it and pick off the raven and/or banshees before he gets to your base, I don't know the timings so I could be dead wrong there (also not sure how many marines they have for it) but phoenixes are at least a form of anti air that isn't worried about pdd or tank range.
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Well, for cannons the same thing holds true as for the robo...if terran has no cloak then all the money has gone down the drain.
If terran DID tech cloak then my robotics-tech pays off anyways. The problem is defending vs cloak cost-efficiently when there actually isn't cloak.
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On July 29 2011 21:10 sleepingdog wrote: Well, for cannons the same thing holds true as for the robo...if terran has no cloak then all the money has gone down the drain.
If terran DID tech cloak then my robotics-tech pays off anyways. The problem is defending vs cloak cost-efficiently when there actually isn't cloak.
Well my spore crawlers have that problem (actually more of one because they don't defend mineral lines against drops), the point is more to be safe and not insta-gg to banshees (obviously don't do it if you see very heavy rax or something clearly indicating that cloaked banshees are not possible).
All this means is that you don't need gas to detect and can use fast phoenixes.
I genuinely think phoenixes are the solution to this 1/1/1 all in problem because they don't get bothered by ravens banshees or tanks (and as I recall it's not too marine heavy) and they have the mobility to slow down progress before he actually hits your base. The ability to pick up tanks when your ground army goes in is also very handy.
The 1/1/1 all in is based around the fact that protoss rely on stalkers for anti-banshee (so pdd and tanks are great) and immortals/stalker for anti tank (so banshees shine in taking out the immortals).
A phoenix is really only bothered by the marines (which are slower) and can in fact snipe the raven and temporarily disable tanks (making stalkers/zealots way better). Phoenixes also deal incredible damage to banshees (they can't always be cloaked) so a "drive-by" shooting of them while taking a round of fire from marines would still be well worth it. 4 phoenixes take 2 rounds to kill a banshee or a Raven (they are also light), even if the marines are right next to them you probably won't lose a full phoenix and your shields will regen. That whole push is a hell of a lot less scary if it doesn't have banshees or doesn't have pdd because you can warp in a couple rounds of stalkers, pick up the tanks and run him over.
Again, I am not sure how it times out and I don't play Toss so I may be missing something but I won't be surprised at all if some form of phoenix opener (with cannons to protect from cloak) came up very soon.
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On July 29 2011 01:50 ForeverSleep wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 00:59 LicH. wrote:On July 28 2011 21:38 ForeverSleep wrote: You do understand that the marines and the banshees will essentially counter the protoss mech and that the pdd will nullify the anti-air, right? Don't talk when you obviously never faced this push, and even less when you "were decent at this game but for some reason don't play anymore"
I honestly can hold this push in my sleep when I offrace as toss. Also, I don't play anymore because I am currently living in China without a suitable PC thank you. more claims, still no explications (but then again, for someone who doesn't play the game, i can understand you have nothing to show, really) Your contribution so far : "those Korean protosses are retarded. I could have won those games even if I don't play this race. I won't tell you how tho, but honestly, those guys are retarded. I don't play starcraft anymore (or never have, for that matter), but I do know more than a bunch of guys who play 10 hours a day!!" Keep going like that and you won't survive long in teamliquid. (btw, I honestly am grandmaster in the korean ladder. Honestly. Thank you).
No need to address half of what you said. By the way, speaking of being in China, look what I found:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjYzMTg0MTQw.html
XiaoT demolishing said unstoppable push executed by marineking.
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